Infinite Wishes at lvl 2 possible?

[Lorddenorstrus]

I've had an idea for awhile.. I didn't think it was worth a thread but Renen has convinced me it would at least be "interesting."

Awhile back in Lord Drakos thread of.. pictures of half naked men. Dextercorvia posted about his combo of Elven Generalist / Domain Wizard to cheese 9th level spells at lvl 1. I looked through the Domains after seeing that brilliant idea and saw Conjuration had Gate as it's 9th level. I wondered if it was possible to cast that at as low a level as possible.. and gain really low level access to Infinite Efreet wishes.

Having the Int required for 9th level spells is negligible, 18 point buy, Grey or Fire elf +2 (20). Venerable even for another +3 if needed.

My idea was being lvl 2 to have the 1000 exp to cast gate, pay a bard for Harmonic Chorus +2 CL. So lvl 2, 2 CL, +1 for casting a domain spell and 2 from Harmonic Chorus which should cost 80G (2nd-level Spell = Caster level x20 gp, if he had bonus modifier enough for a bonus 2nd, otherwise 100G for a 5th level bard) of this 2nd level characters 900 gold. To achieve CL 5 and control the Efreet

After getting the Efreet I imagine he'd have to 1 Permancy the Harmonic Chorus to stop paying the bard, 2 get a thought bottle and stop being a level 1 scrub. 3 Get a candle of invocation because he burned his way into the Gate once that day already. Past this it was mostly a joke as I tried to figure out if it was possible to upgrade this guys CL into Gating in Solars and seeing if he could theoretically enslave an army of them. The idea was use their 1 wish to ask them to not resist the next spell cast on them.. then use a scrolled Geas or something on them one after another. To harness their at will wishes for the sake of the future. So.. how many 6 second periods are in 24 hours? Something around that many then stop.

Edit: Request for explanation of how 9th level spells are accessed. Requirements. Elven Generalist, Domain Wizard, Feats: Alacritous Cogitation(1st level), Versatile Spellcaster(3rd Level, or flaw) Intelligence score: Minimum-19 (Casting 9th level spells)

Alacritous Cogitation gives you a spontaneous spell slot to qualify into Versatile Spellcaster. Versatile lets you fuel low level spells into high level ones. You just churn the low level ones up into a 9th slot. Domain wizard says you know all spells on your list and can simply cast them if you have the spell slot available. "A domain wizard automatically adds each new domain spell to her list of known spells as soon as she becomes able to cast it. These spells do not count against her two new spells known per wizard level." If I explained any of this incorrectly I'm sure someone will point it out. Again not my idea credits go to Dextercorvia who I originally saw showcase the combo.

Also if someone wishes to debate the interaction taking place here I'd request it be in a different thread as I'm partial to the side of this combo functioning.

[Bad Wolf]

Don't think you can take Elf Wizard substitution levels and Domain Wizard at the same time.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Don't think you can take Elf Wizard substitution levels and Domain Wizard at the same time.

Yeah I recall when he (Dexter) mentioned it originally a few people argued that, as it seemed to be a toss up in the end I just leaned towards the "it functions" side because it was the centric part of the whole gambit working.

[Crake]

Yeah I recall when he (Dexter) mentioned it originally a few people argued that, as it seemed to be a toss up in the end I just leaned towards the "it functions" side because it was the centric part of the whole gambit working.

How is it arguable at all? They both give up the ability to specialise, thus cannot be taken in conjunction. I honestly am interested in hearing what arguments were used.

[Extra Anchovies]

How is it arguable at all? They both give up the ability to specialise, thus cannot be taken in conjunction. I honestly am interested in hearing what arguments were used.

The ambiguity comes from the fact that the Elven Generalist actually loses the ability to specialize, whereas Domain Wizard only says "A domain wizard cannot also be a specialist wizard". By a strict reading, all non-specialist wizards can be domain wizards, regardless of whether they would have been able to specialize. I'm in the camp that thinks they should stack, but that's an argument for a different thread (no, really, if we want to argue it we need to start another thread for it).

[AvatarVecna]

As near as I can figure, Infinite Wishes is possible as soon as you can get a single Wish. I'm sure there's a way to do it at level 2; maybe even level 1! A way other than kobold shenanigans, of course; that goes without saying.

[searlefm]

i could not find it wish a quick search but there have been a number of them tho most of them use versatile spellcaster and more cheese than you'll find the the dairy isle of you local store

[Brova]

You want a wish at level one? That can be done with 100% consistency in core, with only a single level under your belt. The things to keep in mind are the profession skill and the candle of invocation. The candle of invocation costs 8,400 GP. Assuming you can take 10 on your profession check, you can make 10.5 GP a week (10 base + 4 ranks + 3 skill focus + 4 Wis bonus, all divided by 2). In about 800 weeks (a little over 15 years), you will make enough money to afford a candle of invocation. It's rather slow in terms of time elapsed, but it's 100% core an doable at level 1.

[Darrin]

Pazuzu (and possibly Omniscificer) is possible at level 1, so I'm not sure the Bootstrap Generalist trick is all that necessary. You can also use the Sacrifice rules in BoVD at 1st level to get an efreet, so there's another method (see Apocalypse Martini (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15634823&postcount=19) for more details).

[Lorddenorstrus]

I was aware of the ones that broke the wealth system effectively to just save for the Candle, I however did have a 2 week time limit when originally challenged. This character takes like a day.. cause after the first few wishes he can just use a Scroll of Genesis and start doing the rest of the stuff on a different plane with fast time.

It's not entirely about getting the first wish either as I knew a few of the ways people get candles at early levels. The second chunk was trying to see if it was possible to enslave the Solars who unlike the Efreet have their wish as an At Will. I figured if it was possible to have a ton of minions like that, the Wizard in question would be able to use his minions ability with effectively the snap of his fingers.

The original joke I started with was whether or not it was possible to somehow get a character to Wish at Will. This is kinda the idea that got spawned from that.

[Mehangel]

I understand that is mostly done by theory alone. But just in case by off chance you are serious, any competent DM can squash this plan before it even comes about (and this is by using only RAW and without any DM-fiat). Some issues that may arise:

Efreet called:
o Already has spent its wishes for the day.
o Using wish to create a candle of invocation may or will always create a candle that is aligned Lawful Evil (depending on interpretation of RAW/particulars of wish).

Permanency:
o Harmonic Chorus is not one of the spells listed that can be made permanent.

Other notes:
o Using a wish to have it not resist the next spell cast is not one of the listed possibilities of wish, thus can be perverted.
o Nothing stops the dm from calling the same efreeti who had already spent its wishes each time you use the candle.
o Nothing stops any Efreeti or Solars you call from having equipment that make them immune to geas/quest.

There are several possible ways that this plan can be thwarted and without strictly being dm fiat. But it is interesting theorycraft though.

Just my 2 cents.

[Lorddenorstrus]

I understand that is mostly done by theory alone. But just in case by off chance you are serious, any competent DM can squash this plan before it even comes about (and this is by using only RAW and without any DM-fiat). Some issues that may arise:

Efreet called:
o Already has spent its wishes for the day.
o Using wish to create a candle of invocation may or will always create a candle that is aligned Lawful Evil (depending on interpretation of RAW/particulars of wish).

Permanency:
o Harmonic Chorus is not one of the spells listed that can be made permanent.

Other notes:
o Using a wish to have it not resist the next spell cast is not one of the listed possibilities of wish, thus can be perverted.
o Nothing stops the dm from calling the same efreeti who had already spent its wishes each time you use the candle.
o Nothing stops any Efreeti or Solars you call from having equipment that make them immune to geas/quest.

There are several possible ways that this plan can be thwarted and without strictly being dm fiat. But it is interesting theorycraft though.

Just my 2 cents.

I have another character made already for after my book is thrown at me for this one.

Side note Permanency just gives examples that's not the complete list.
Saying the Efreet is out of wishes is nothing short of Fiat.
You are allowed to specify the Alignment of the Candle you're having created out of thin air.

Other notes since this guy can just effectively repeat Gate stuff at minor cost to himself he could churn the cash out easily and 1k exp could just be grinded if it had to be repeatedly paid until he "struck" gold and found an Efreet that wasn't Fiated into being out of wishes or protected from the Geas.

This is the only chunk I'm actually worried on. Wishing for them to not resist the next spell. I've been looking for a spell to disable SR that Wish can Emulate and just have it be cast upon themselves. The process would be cleaner.

(As an extra side note, this concept was originally just a joke but I recently found a DM willing to play a character that has everything and is so god damn bored of winning every fight he uses his party as reality TV. He actually helped a little when this was being fine tuned prior to my posting here.)

[Mehangel]

Saying the Efreet is out of wishes is nothing short of Fiat.


Not necessarily. If you used Gate to call Joe the Wizard, does the gate spell call the wizard with all spells prepared and ready to go? No. It just conjures Joe the Wizard (who could've been taking a dump, or in the middle of spell preparation). On a similar note, nothing says that calling a generic creature doesn't call forth the same individual of that creature type each time that it is cast.

So while I agree it might be DM Fiat, I consider it only so in the good way; It prevents abuse and clarifies rules.

EDIT:

On a side note, stating the alignment of an item IG could be interpreted as using OOC knowledge while IC. Which could be interpreted as Metagaming and thus punished.

[Jormengand]

As near as I can figure, Infinite Wishes is possible as soon as you can get a single Wish. I'm sure there's a way to do it at level 2; maybe even level 1! A way other than kobold shenanigans, of course; that goes without saying.

Indeed, sufficient application of BoVD-wielding truenamers can get you a wish at level 1.

[Lorddenorstrus]

I disagree with stating an items alignment to be out of game terms. Alignment has a ton of ingame mechanics. Such as Paladins and other alignment detection spells. Requesting that the Candle to be of the same alignment of yourself is just being specific.

[Extra Anchovies]

A way other than kobold shenanigans, of course; that goes without saying.

Actually, the Pazuzu -> CoI sequence detailed in Pun-Pun doesn't require kobold. Only the Manipulate Form bit does.

[Mehangel]

I disagree with stating an items alignment to be out of game terms. Alignment has a ton of ingame mechanics. Such as Paladins and other alignment detection spells. Requesting that the Candle to be of the same alignment of yourself is just being specific.

I am not saying that spells or abilities do not call for alignment. I am saying that the character probably doesn't know the alignments, hell, even most d&d players dont quite understand the differences of each alignment. And as the wish granter is lawful evil (Efreeti are LE), I would be more than willing (If I was the gm) to pervert the wish. Thus if you wished for a Lawful Good Candle of Invocation, I would make give you a candle of invocation created by a lawful evil cleric but was an intelligent item that had a Lawful Good ego.

[Lorddenorstrus]

I am not saying that spells or abilities do not call for alignment. I am saying that the character probably doesn't know the alignments, hell, even most d&d players dont quite understand the differences of each alignment. And as the wish granter is lawful evil (Efreeti are LE), I would be more than willing (If I was the gm) to pervert the wish. Thus if you wished for a Lawful Good Candle of Invocation, I would make give you a candle of invocation created by a lawful evil cleric but was an intelligent item that had a Lawful Good ego.

As an aside though the Wizards goal is the enslavement of Thousands of beings for his own personal use. He's actually probably evil himself. But between the original reason I made the idea (As a joke when I was told "Go crazy" on a character) and his possible actual use with a DM who focuses extremely hard on Role Play and we both talked. This characters power is restricted by his personality of not feeling like using it unless necessary. I imagine this guy drinking a Martini with some shrimp or something watching his party fight cheering them on.. quite literally like a reality TV show. Only interfering with DM permission if necessary. The DM assisted with the creation of this concept he just like myself wanted to see if there any major holes. Thankfully you pointed out one with Wishing for the beings to not resist the next spell cast. I'm going to have to figure out how to fix that. But otherwise all the things you've pointed out I've already had checked and aren't happening.

[Endarire]

In the main post, may we have an explanation of the full process on how to use Elven Generalist/Domain Wizard to get level 9 spellcasting at level 1?