Is a Battle Sorcerer with an Animal Companion better than a ranger?

[atemu1234]

I dislike Sorcerers (Battle Sorcerers in particular), but am curious as to which is better- a Battle Sorcerer with an Animal Companion (as per UA) or a Ranger? Assume all 3.5 is allowed, including Dragon Magazine.

[Psyren]

Battle Sorcerers still get 9th-level spells, so I'm curious what definition of "better" you could be using that doesn't take something like that into account :smalltongue: the answer should be obvious.

[atemu1234]

Battle Sorcerers still get 9th-level spells, so I'm curious what definition of "better" you could be using that doesn't take something like that into account :smalltongue: the answer should be obvious.

True.

Note I made this thread at 12:50-ish my time.

I mean at early levels through mid.

[Troacctid]

It's close at low levels, where the Sorcerer is starved for spells. The higher level you get, the more Sorcerer pulls ahead. If you want to make a contest of it, you could have the Ranger go into Master of Many Forms--that'll definitely boost her power.

Full BAB and extra skills aren't worth missing out on Sorcerer spells. Sorcerer spells are like totally super great, even if you're only using them to gish.

[Nihilarian]

There's really no contest, sorcerer has 9th level spells.

It's close at low levels, where the Sorcerer is starved for spells. The higher level you get, the more Sorcerer pulls ahead. If you want to make a contest of it, you could have the Ranger go into Master of Many Forms--that'll definitely boost her power.

Full BAB and extra skills aren't worth missing out on Sorcerer spells. Sorcerer spells are like totally super great, even if you're only using them to gish.Wildshape Ranger doesn't get an animal companion. Neither does the other frequently looked at Ranger upgrade, the Mystic Ranger.

[Mr Adventurer]

With the decent HP and BAB, the Sorcerer is better off sticking with a Familiar, surely? Especially Improved. Half-level Animal Companion is kind of pants.

[5ColouredWalker]

That, and with all Dragon Magazine material, Sorcerers have access to Know Stones. Your sorcerer now knows every spell in the game, have fun laughing at the Wizard who has to prepare from his spell list which contained every spell in the game, while burning several slots on divinations so he knows which ones to prepare.


With the decent HP and BAB, the Sorcerer is better off sticking with a Familiar, surely? Especially Improved. Half-level Animal Companion is kind of pants.

I'm with this guy. Grab Improved Familiar or Draconic Familiar instead. At early levels, grab a monkey and give it a sling.

[Psyren]

With the decent HP and BAB, the Sorcerer is better off sticking with a Familiar, surely? Especially Improved. Half-level Animal Companion is kind of pants.

By the time it really starts to fall behind though you probably won't need it anymore anyway, plus there are ways to boost it in the short term (e.g. natural bond).


That, and with all Dragon Magazine material, Sorcerers have access to Know Stones. Your sorcerer now knows every spell in the game, have fun laughing at the Wizard who has to prepare from his spell list which contained every spell in the game, while burning several slots on divinations so he knows which ones to prepare.

That goes both ways - if you allow Dragon Magazine then you get Easy Bake Wizard and he is right back to being the one laughing.

[Nihilarian]

Amusingly, Rangers have better Familiars due to the Urban Companion acf. They may not be able to take Improved Familiar, though.

[5ColouredWalker]

That goes both ways - if you allow Dragon Magazine then you get Easy Bake Wizard and he is right back to being the one laughing.

Really? I'm fairly sure that Wizards have less spell slots than sorcerers. They may have an advantage on odd levels or if wealth is being restricted, but not the overall advantage.

[Extra Anchovies]

Really? I'm fairly sure that Wizards have less spell slots than sorcerers. They may have an advantage on odd levels or if wealth is being restricted, but not the overall advantage.

Focused Specialist brings a wizard up to a maximum of six per level before bonus spells, same as Sorcerer.

[Coidzor]

A battle sorcerer is certainly a more powerful spellcaster than a ranger. With appropriate spell selection, such a character would have a higher ability to contribute meaningfully and effectively to a wider variety of situations than a vanilla ranger.


Wildshape Ranger doesn't get an animal companion. Neither does the other frequently looked at Ranger upgrade, the Mystic Ranger.

Wildshape Ranger loses combat styles, not animal companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger). This is the basis for Swordshape Mystic Rangers, a Mystic Ranger who trades away combat styles for wild shape and then takes the sword of the arcane order feat at their first opportunity.

[Evan Epis]

Focused Specialist brings a wizard up to a maximum of six per level before bonus spells, same as Sorcerer.

It costs 3 schools though.


Battle Sorcerers still get 9th-level spells, so I'm curious what definition of "better" you could be using that doesn't take something like that into account the answer should be obvious.

I think this pretty much answers the question.

[Extra Anchovies]

It costs 3 schools though.

And? Focused Specialist is still an upgrade from Specialist and from non-Domain Generalist. Treantmonk explains the supposed issues with banned schools, spells per day, and versatility here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1145491).

Sure, if you plan to go into Incantatrix/Red Wizard starting as a Focused Specialist might not be the best idea, but if you aren't doing either of those you don't actually give up very much for being a Focused Specialist (Evocation and Enchantment are no-brainers to ban for reasons Treantmonk explains, and you can get your third school un-banned with a three-feat chain in Lost Empires of Faerun if you really want access to Necromancy).

[Evan Epis]

And? Focused Specialist is still an upgrade from Specialist and from non-Domain Generalist. Treantmonk explains the supposed issues with banned schools, spells per day, and versatility here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1145491).

Sure, if you plan to go into Incantatrix/Red Wizard starting as a Focused Specialist might not be the best idea, but if you aren't doing either of those you don't actually give up very much for being a Focused Specialist (Evocation and Enchantment are no-brainers to ban for reasons Treantmonk explains, and you can get your third school un-banned with a three-feat chain in Lost Empires of Faerun if you really want access to Necromancy).

Yes I know the aforementioned thread of TMlvl20. And while I do agree that you dont need a spellbook with all the spells in the world and 8 schools of magic to come through, heck, you dont even need 6, you have to admit that 3 schools of magic is quite the cost for those who want that versatility or something close to it. The 3-feats-to-get-1-school-back could be considered expensive or cheap, depending on what you want to do.

[Spore]

When the Sorcerer gets 4th level spells the fate starts to turn in his favor. Heavily. By the time 5th level hits its over for the ranger.

[5ColouredWalker]

And? Focused Specialist is still an upgrade from Specialist and from non-Domain Generalist. Treantmonk explains the supposed issues with banned schools, spells per day, and versatility here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1145491).

Sure, if you plan to go into Incantatrix/Red Wizard starting as a Focused Specialist might not be the best idea, but if you aren't doing either of those you don't actually give up very much for being a Focused Specialist (Evocation and Enchantment are no-brainers to ban for reasons Treantmonk explains, and you can get your third school un-banned with a three-feat chain in Lost Empires of Faerun if you really want access to Necromancy).

Ok, you've now devoted your entire build to matching what the sorcerer just does with wealth, except now you lack 2/3 schools.

You've become better/equal how? :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

Ok, you've now devoted your entire build to matching what the sorcerer just does with wealth, except now you lack 2/3 schools.

You've become better/equal how? :smallconfused:

Note 1: the official Easy Bake build actually uses Domain Wizard, not Focused Specialist (though it certainly could.)

Note 2: More schools doesn't actually make you more versatile. (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1145491)

[Elandris Kajar]

What exactly is the easy bake wizard?
Can someone pleas explain?

[5ColouredWalker]

Note 2: More schools doesn't actually make you more versatile. (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1145491)

I know, particularly if you ban Conjuration/Evocation. However that's still something you need to build around, sorcerer just performs (Insert favourite wealth generation trick here), goes shopping, and does it better. The difference is negligible, I'll give, but it's still present.

[Extra Anchovies]

Ok, you've now devoted your entire build to matching what the sorcerer just does with wealth, except now you lack 2/3 schools.
your entire buildWhat, three feats out of the twelve that a wizard normally gets?

Also, you're only "matching what the sorcerer does" in terms of base spells per day. In terms of what you can do with those spells, well, you're a wizard and he's a sorcerer. Don't pretend that the latter is a more powerful or versatile class.


What exactly is the easy bake wizard?
Can someone pleas explain?

From the guide itself:

Easy Bake Wizard Handbook
The Easy Bake Wizard is a build that utilizes several ACFs, feats, racial substitutions and other options to create a Wizard that can function without a spellbook, can cast some spells spontaneously, and that can sometimes pass for a sorcerer.

Easy Bake in my initial posting of the build some time ago refers to it being a slimmed down (no spellbook, familiar, or scribe scroll) version of an arcane spellcaster; similar to how an Easy Bake Oven produces snacks that are basically reduced down versions of desserts.

The Easy Bake Wizard gains lots of spell known. It does not have a familiar, it does not have a spellbook, and it does not have Scribe Scroll. However, it can gain additional spells by burning magic incense instead of using magic ink. Kind of like Gandalf.
It's an old thread, so don't post in it lest it be locked.

[Nihilarian]

A battle sorcerer is certainly a more powerful spellcaster than a ranger. With appropriate spell selection, such a character would have a higher ability to contribute meaningfully and effectively to a wider variety of situations than a vanilla ranger.



Wildshape Ranger loses combat styles, not animal companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger). This is the basis for Swordshape Mystic Rangers, a Mystic Ranger who trades away combat styles for wild shape and then takes the sword of the arcane order feat at their first opportunity.why did I think Wildshape Ranger gave up Animal Companion

My bad

[Stegyre]

why did I think Wildshape Ranger gave up Animal Companion

My bad
You were perhaps thinking of some ACF chaining: wildshape ranger to shapeshift ranger (PHBII ACF for druid). Shapeshift gives up the animal companion (and wildshaping) for its special shapeshifting.