PDA

View Full Version : Battle-Bard, advice?



Townopolis
2007-05-02, 09:10 PM
Hi, partially because of some of the recent talk surrounding bards, partially due to my own love of the class and its versatility, and partially because I'm retiring an old favorite character of mine, I was thinking about how to build a brawny battle-bard.

For this project I decided I wanted to make a barbaric bard. Not necessarily having any levels of barbarian, but rather a sort of diplomat/skald hailing from the harsh, dangerous, environment of a barbarian clansman. He mixes powerful chants, the ancient sagas of his clan, with swordplay to fight alongside the warriors of his clan, but also serves as an emmissary, negotiating alliances and surrenders (of other clans, naturally) for his clan.

Crunch-wise, I'm just looking to build a melee bard with some diplimacy to keep his "party face" element.

However, while I do know my way around the system, understanding the mechanics pretty thoroughly and generally knowing my way around, I'm not spectacular at optimizing. So, I'm looking for any help and advice. Mostly, I haven't developed a way to gauge the effectiveness of any particular feat/PrC/whatever.

Here's what I have right now, uses 25 (elite) point buy.

First Build:

Human.
STR: 14 DEX: 10 CON: 12 INT: 13 WIS: 10 CHA: 14
Skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Listen, Perform: Oratory, Sense Motive, Speak Language (lots of them), Tumble, Use Magic Device.

1: Bard: Extra Music, Power-Attack, Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage +1
2: Bard
3: Bard: Weapon Focus, Inspire Competence
4: Bard
5: Bard
6: Bard: Combat Expertise, Suggestion
7: War-chanter: Warchanter Music, Inspire Toughness
8: War-chanter
9: War-chanter: Battle Dancer, Inspire Recklessness
10: War-chanter
11: War-chanter: Combine Songs
12: War-chanter: Snowflake Wardance
13: War-chanter: Inspire Awe
14: War-chanter: Singing Shout
15: War-chanter: Imp. Bull Rush
16: War-chanter: Inspire Legion
17: Bard
18: Bard: Shock Trooper, Inspire Courage +2
19: Bard: Inspire Greatness
20: Bard

Feats, in case you don't know.
Extra Music: 4 more uses of bardic music/day
power Attack: Subtract points from BAB, add to damage
Weapon Focus: +1 with longsword, prereq for warchanter
Combat Expertise: trade attack bonus for defense, prereq for warchanter
Battle Dancer: +2 attack and damage while singing and moving at least 5'/round
Snowflake Wardance: Don't have the book for this one either. Allows CHA to attack while singing?
Imp. Bull Rush: +4 on bull rush attempts, no AoO
Shock Trooper: allows you to subtract from AC to add to Damage, among other things.

Fights with longsword & chain shirt.

Alternate Build:

Human.
STR: 14 DEX: 12 CON: 13 INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 14
Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Listen, Perform: Oratory, Sense Motive, Speak Language (gaint, dwarven, goblin) - Survival, Tumble. (Barbarian skills: Intimidatex2, Listen, survival)

Uses the Savage Bard variant.

1: Bard: Extra Music, Lingering Song, Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage +1, Illiteracy
2: Bard:
3: Barbarian: Battle Caster, Fast Movement 10', Rage 1/day
4: Bard: Inspire Competence
5: Barbarian: Uncanny Dodge
6: Bard: Battle Dancer
7: Barbarian: Trap Sense +1
8: Barbarian: Rage 2/day
9: Bard: Snowflake Wardance
10: barbarian: Improved Uncanny Dodge
11: Bard: Suggestion
12: Bard: Combat Panache
13: Bard: Inspire Courage +2
14: Bard: Inspire Greatness
15: Bard: Power Attack
16: Bard:
17: Bard: Song of Freedom
18: Bard: Arcane Strike
19: Bard: Inspire Courage +3
20: Bard: Inspire Heroics


Also, this picture is my visual inspiration

http://www.ugopozzati.it/images/Speranza-Celt%20Warrior.jpg

the_tick_rules
2007-05-03, 10:39 AM
i'd check complete warrior, they have some bardic powers specifically designed to hurt.

ocato
2007-05-03, 10:40 AM
I'll admit that I'm not a big knower of Bard PrCs, and that Warchanter is one I've heard very little about. However, I can note some things I like and dislike about your build. I assume it's point buy.

The improved trip/disarm can probably go, unless they are distinctively for flavor. Melodic Casting is a pickle. You see, if you're going to be melee oriented, you'll probably benefit more from Lingering Song (doubles lasting power of songs) especially since you can then stack your big-boy songs on yourself more effectively. However, since you're going to be in the middle of combat, you then lose the 'guarenteed' concentration check when healing yourself, or throwing a spell around. You might, however, find it easier to tumble out of the fray and cast. Then you can move for your battle dancer the next round and get that +2/+2.

Arcane Strike is a wonderful feat for a bard who plans to use his spells for heals and buffs and otherwise melee. You sacrifice a spell and gain +1 to attack and +1d4 per level of the spell. Now, I don't have my books anymore, and the internet appears divided on this point (If you do have complete warrior, please fill me in so my cheat sheet can remain accurate). Some say it lasts a round and others say it lasts 1 round per spell level. Either way it's pretty good for a hasted bard to use. Kill a 4th level spell slot, for example, and you're going to be bringing some extra fun to the swing.

Since I assume the idea is to buff yourself, and lingering song is on the table, you might want to grab another bard staple: Song of the Heart. +1 to bard music effects. Pretty much all variables.

Let me dig something up for you and see if it gives you any ideas.


For a martial bard, I really like to mix magic with mayhem. Remember the Laws of the Battle Bard.
1. Do not forsake buffs, they affect you as well.
2. Do not forsake CC, a laughing enemy is easier to slay than a fighting one.

There are more Laws of the Battle Bard.
Feats I like for Battle Bards
Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) Use a Bardic Music to add Cha to attack with slashing weapon
Power Attack (PHB) Just hear me out...
Song of the Heart (Ebberon) +1 to ALL bardic variables. Inspire Courage, Fascinate/Suggestion DCs, like, everything.
Lingering Song (Complete Adventurer) Songs last 10 rounds after being sung
Arcane Strike (uh... Complete Arcane? I don't remember) This one is foggy in my head, but you pretty much sacrifice a spell and add X to your next attack roll and Xd4 to your next damage roll where X was the spell's level.
Extra Music (complete Adventurer) 4 more songs per day

Do you have the Magic Item Compendium? Get the Crystal Echoblade
Crystal Echoblade
Price (Item Level)" 4,310 gp (9th)
Body Slot: - (held)
Caster Level: 10th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 20) evocation
Activation: -
Weight: 4 lb.

A crystal echoblade normally functions as a +1 longsword, but is enhanced by your musical ability. If you use your bardic music ability while wielding the weapon, the blade resonates in harmony, dealing additional sonic damage on each attack equal to half your bard level.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Bardic Music
Cost to Create: 2,000 go (plus 310 gp for masterwork longsword), 160 XP, 4 days.
You can buff it to more than a +1, but since it's a longsword, it works with Snowflake Wardance.

For Poops and giggles, let's say you're a L12 Human Bard. You have the following feats
1. Snowflake Wardance (I can't remember if there are prereqs, if so, switch this with #9)
1. Power attack
3. Song of the Heart
6. Lingering Song
9. Extra Music
12. Arcane Strike

Str 20 and Cha 20 (not hard for a strength and Charisma focused Bard, remember that this is a slasher, not a skill monkey, so instead of CHA, DEX, then INT, it's more CHA, STR, CON)

Inspirational Boost (+1 to Inspire Courage, L1 spell in the Spell Compendium) on your Inspire Courage makes it a +4 to attack and damage (2 base +1 inspirational boost +1 SotH)
Haste (+1 bonus to attacks, 1 extra attack at your highest BaB)
Use Snowflake Wardance and Arcane Strike one of your L4 spells. This is assuming a +1 Echoblade, a +2 or 3 wouldn't be hard to get.

Full Attack
BaB +9/+4 so

Attack 1. 9+5(str)+5(cha)+4(Insp.Cour)+1(Haste)+4(Arcane Strike)+1 (sword)= +29. Power Attack 9 of that off, so you're swinging with +20.
Two hands on that sword mister!
Damage 1. 1d8+ 18(power attack)+4 (insp cour)+4d4(Arcane Strike)+1 (sword) +6(sonic from sword)= Average at about ~41ish?
Haste! Attack again at that bonus sucka!
Attack 3. 4+5(STR)+5(CHA)+4(Insp. Cour)+1(haste)+4(arcane strike)+1 (sword)=+24.
Power Attack 4 of that off, you're swinging at a +20.
Damage 1d8+ 8(power attack)+4(insp cour) +4d4 (Arcane strike)+1(sword)+6(sonic from sword)= ~31.

So that's about 100 damage if they all hit. Rough estimate. This is a "let me pull out the biggest bard slap I can" average damage will be a bit lower. At L15 grab Lyric Spell if you are having problems with losing spells, you can give up your Music chances for more spells (1+spell level songs gets a spell back) so you can save an ace up your sleeve.

That can be altered to taking the Warchanter PrC assuming Warchanters gain spell progression. That's not a "DO THIS OR FAIL", it's just an example of how a few bard feats, techniques, and ideas can all work together. Extra Music and Lingering song are probably the ones in that list to drop for PrC Prereq feats.

Feats I mentioned that you didn't (References)
Lingering Song
Complete Adventurer pg. 111
Prerequisites: Bardic Music.
Benefit: If you use bardic music to inspire courage...the effects last for 1 minute after an inspired ally stops hearing you play.

Arcane Strike
Complete Warrior
Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast 3rd level arcane spells, BaB +4
Benefit: Sacrifice a spell for +1 to attacks +1d4 damage per level of the spell for 1 round (per spell level?)

Song of the Heart
Eberron Campaign Setting, pg. 60
Prerequisites: Bardic music class feature, inspire competence ability, Perform 6 ranks
Benefit: When you use inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics, any bonus granted by your music increases by +1.

Lyric Spell
Complete Adventurer
Prerequisite: Bardic music, Perform 9 ranks, ability to spontaneously cast 2nd-level arcane spells.
Benefit: You can expend daily uses of your bardic music to cast any arcane spell that you know and can cast spontaneously. You must still use an action to cast the spell (following the normal rules for casting time), but using the Lyric Spell feat counts as part of the spellcasting action. Casting a spell requires one use of your bardic music ability, plus one additional use per level of the spell. For example, casting a 3rd-level spell requires four daily uses of your bardic music ability.
Special: Any spell that you cast using the Lyric Spell feat gains your instrument as an additional arcane focus, if you use one.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 10:42 AM
You might want to look at the Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) variant

Telonius
2007-05-03, 11:18 AM
The "Battle Caster" feat from Complete Arcane comes to mind. Possibly one level of Fighter or Paladin of Freedom, then a dip into Spellsword from Complete Warrior. You can start that PrC at level 6, and snap up the ability to ignore a bit of armor failure.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 11:25 AM
...bards already ignore ASF from light armor.

Townopolis
2007-05-03, 11:27 AM
Thanks.

I'm liking that savage bard variant, should have noticed it since I have a copy of UA.

Unfortunately, the Warchanter sacrifices 2 things: 1) it doesn't progress Inspire Courage, and 2) it doesn't progress spellcasting, so I'd max out at 4th level spells at level 20.

What the warchanter gives: d8 hd &...
-Inspire Toughness (allies gain 2hp/warchanter level & diehard feat)
-Inspire Recklessness (gives option to -AC for +Atk)
-Combine Songs (sing 2 songs at once)
-Inspire Awe (Fear effects)
-Singing Shout (automatically happens first round, +4 STR for all allies, 1/2 warchanter levels for duration)
-Inspire Legion (Everyone's BAB = highest BAB in party and +2 damage).

Also, Arcane Strike is 1 round.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 11:29 AM
...and because of the ignoring of ASF in light armor, that means you can wear mithral breastplate and ignore it's ASF.

Townopolis
2007-05-03, 11:31 AM
I believe snapping up battle caster would allow me to ignore ASF in mithral full plate though... hmmm...

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 11:38 AM
It wouldn't, since Bard doesn't have Armored Mage (Light); their proficiencies denote that they can ignore ASF from Light armor, but doesn't actually give them a class feature that Battle Caster could augment.

Telonius
2007-05-03, 11:39 AM
Right, and if you're going to be tanking as a Bard that's going to be pretty useful.

Telonius
2007-05-03, 11:40 AM
It wouldn't, since Bard doesn't have Armored Mage (Light); their proficiencies denote that they can ignore ASF from Light armor, but doesn't actually give them a class feature that Battle Caster could augment.

If I'm not mistaken, the Battle Caster text gives Bard as an example of a class that can use it. Just going from my online source though, books are at home, so it might be wrong.

Townopolis
2007-05-03, 11:41 AM
Hmmm, checking my copy of the Complete Arcane, it doesn't mention Armored Caster specifically, just "The ability to ignore arcane spell failure chance from armor."

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 11:44 AM
Hmmm, checking my copy of the Complete Arcane, it doesn't mention Armored Caster specifically, just "The ability to ignore arcane spell failure chance from armor."

Huh. Okay, then you can. Jump on that like it's a golden football.

Khoran
2007-05-03, 12:04 PM
If you've got PHBII, the tactical feat of "Combat Panache" seems perfect for a Bard.

Townopolis
2007-05-03, 12:06 PM
Added an alternate build I'm thinking of. No warchanter this time, bardbarian. Uses power attack, battle caster, and arcane strike to lay on the hurt from within a decent AC.

[Edit] Good idea, Khoran, I'll try to fit that in.

jameswilliamogle
2007-05-03, 12:37 PM
I played this Bard in a recent one-shot. I think I did the Words of Creation doubling effect wrong, though. If I could do it over, I'd make it a fey-craft rapier instead of taking Weapon Finesse, then get the Frostburn feat with the dancing. The DM gave the character the Olimarru Relic from Magic Item Compendium, which was a +2 Rapier that got keen if any damage was taken at all, which worked really, really well with Words of Creation.



Kendra, Strongheart Halfling
Chaotic Good Bard 9

Str 13, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 4, Cha 16

BAB +6/+1
AC 22 (10 + 1 size + 5 dex + 1 deflection + 5 armor)
F 7, R 12, W 4

Skills
Balance (Dex) 5, Bluff (Cha) 1 , Concentration (Con) 12, Jump (Str) 5, Perform (Cha) Singing 12, Spellcraft (Int) 4, Tumble (Dex) 12, and Use Magic Device (Cha) 12.

Feats
Words of Creation, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, Melodic Casting, Subsonics

Class Abilities
Bardic Knowledge, Countersong, Bardic Music 9 / day
effects: Inspire Courage +2, Inspire Competance, Fascinate, Suggestion

Spells (level / known / per day / save)
0 / 6 / 3 / 13
Detect Magic, Read Magic, Lullaby, Mage Hand, Mending, Dancing Lights
1 / 4 / 4 / 14
Inspirational Boost, Cure Light Wounds, Immediate Assistance, Feather Fall
2 / 4 / 4 / 15
Alter Self, Magic Savant, Cat’s Grace, Mirror Image
3 / 3 / 3 / 16
Haste, Charm Monster, Invisibility Sphere

Equipment
GP 250
Worn: Rapier +1 (d4+1, 17-20, x2), Mithril Chain Shirt +1, Mithril Buckler +1, Ring of
Protection +1, Vest of Resistance +1
Belt: Wand of Cure Light Wounds (50), Wand of Longstrider (50), Scroll Fly, Scroll
Silence, Wand Shield (50)
Backpack: Potions
Cure Serious Wounds x2, Remove Disease, Remove Curse, Cure Light Wounds, Rod of Extend (lesser)

Summary (Full Buff)
Assumes: Alter Self (Troglodyte), Cat’s Grace, Inspirational Boost, Inspire Courage, Words of Creation (takes 3d4 non-lethal damage), Haste, Shield, Elation. Between Subsonics and Melodic Casting, has 18 h / day Inspire Courage going.

Attack (Rapier, two-handed - get two-handed PA damage!!!)
+21 / +21 / +16 (+6 BAB +7 Dex +6 Inspire Courage +1 Haste +1 Size -6 Power Attack)
d4 + 19 (d4 base +1 enhancement +6 Inspire Courage +12 Power Attack)

AC
32 (10 +5 Dex +5 Armor +1 Size + 6 Natural +1 Haste +4 Shield)

Ramza00
2007-05-03, 12:48 PM
You need Power Attack with your first build even if you are using Snowflake Wardance. Snowflake Wardance allows you to use a bardic music attempt to give Cha to attack rolls with one weapon which you wield with one hand.

Here this may give you some ideas
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2519789&postcount=83

Darrin
2007-05-03, 12:50 PM
Consider a Half-Orc and going into Battle Howler of Grummsh after Bard 5. Take the Magic-Blooded racial template from Dragon #306 to negate the Cha penalty (-2 Wis, +2 Cha). Battle Howler requires Power Attack and Cleave, but PA + Improved Bull Rush + Shock Trooper is one of the better combat-heavy combos, assuming you don't ding your BAB up too badly.

From there you can finish off with Eldritch Knight or Abjurant Champion/War Chanter. Not sure War Chanter would be all that optimal... full BAB but no spell progression. There is a build out there somewhere that optimizes Inspire Toughness, though. Bard 5/Battle Howler 5 is also a good stepping-off point for Sublime Chord if you want to go the whole 9th level/full spellcaster route.

Otherwise, if you'd rather focus on the Improved Trip+Knockdown combo, then you need to pick up those feats earlier. In that case I'd recommend a Magic-Blooded Dwarf (stability = +4 to resist counter-trips). EWP: Spiked Chain + Combat Reflexes + Karmic Strike + Robilar's Gambit should work nicely.

Townopolis
2007-05-03, 01:24 PM
Ok, updated the 1st build to get Shock Trooper by the end, removing the feint/trip feats. Right now though, I'm liking the 2nd build more, some reason he just seems a little more... desirable. Dual songs from the Warchanter is nice though.

The Battle Howler intruiges me, can you tell me what book it's from?

Person_Man
2007-05-03, 01:37 PM
Wow man, you have lousy stats. I was going to suggest a Marshal/Bard, but with such cruddy Cha, it wouldn't work.

Here are my suggestions:

1) Dump Wisdom: You have a strong Will Save, and no class abilities tied to Wis. Put the extra points into anything else.

2) Any build that relies on Power Attack for damage basically requires full BAB. Otherwise, the math quickly breaks down. As a Bard, you don't have full BAB. Thus, you should focus on other things.

3) One of the best, move overlooked parts about being a Bard is free whip proficiency. This makes a Trip/Disarm build much easier then a damage dealing build. Remember, a whip can be wielded two-handed.

4) For PrC, consider the War Weaver (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=769208) from Heroes of Battle. It's the best party buff PrC out there, because it lets you cast certain spells that effect everyone in your party.

5) If this is going to be a high level game, Sublime Chord will give your Bard access to much higher level spells.

6) As others have suggested, War Chanter is ok, especially if someone else in your party is playing a Karmic Strike build. My suggestion is that you personally don't try to pull that off, because Bards are too fragile. But if you can help someone else do it, they'll love you for it.

7) If you can get your Cha a little higher, consider the Frightful Presence feat from the Draconomicon. It's very helpful.

BardicDuelist
2007-05-03, 09:30 PM
It was just posted, but Doomspeek from Champions of Ruin would be really useful.

Prereq: Bardic music, intimidate 8, perform 8
Benefit: Spend one use of bardic music to utter string of insults at an enemy withing 120 feet. Target makes will save (10+Character Level+CHA bonus)
if fails, takes -10 to saves, attacks, skills, and checks for one round.

I don't know, but you could probably use lingering song to make that really useful.

cupkeyk
2007-05-04, 06:35 AM
My favorite PRC for combat Bards is Lyric Thaumaturge. They can gain spells from the Sorc Wiz spell list and gain extra damage to any spells with the sonic descriptor. This means that Enthrall and Song of Discord deals damage as well as controls the battlefield. Plus they get one more spell per day per spell level which is very useful.

Darrin
2007-05-04, 07:39 AM
The Battle Howler intruiges me, can you tell me what book it's from?

Dragon #311.

Requirements: any chaotic alignment, Knowledge: Religion 2, Perform 8, Power Attack, Cleave, must worship Gruumsh.

Full BAB, full caster levels, bardic music progression, good Fort save, gains proficiency with all martial/armor/shields (except tower). HD d8, Skill 4+Int.

1st: Bardic Music
2nd: Rage 1/day
3rd: War Cry (Inspire Courage 60', additional +1 bonus)
4th: Howling Rage (use bardic music abilities while raging)
5th: Rage 2/day

A Gish build would look something like:

Bard 5/Battle Howler 5/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8 (or SpellSword 3+Abjurant Champion 5)

BAB +17, 9th level spells

BardicDuelist
2007-05-04, 07:41 AM
Also, Races of Faerun (which is still RAW since only parts have been updated), has a PrC called the Battle Skald.
It is very similar to a War Chanter (you don't get your spells), but I personally think the music is better (you also get all bardic music that you meet the perform prereqs for).