Non-TOB sword and board hero 3.5

[Warrnan]

So I've read the sword and board handbook. Is there a typical build for a non tome of battle sword and shield user? I know that large amounts of defense = smart enemies avoiding the guy covered in metal.

This build is attempting to make the best mundane sword and board user, not debate about spiked chaines and aoos.

Allied defense and combat expertise looked good at first glance except I realized that giving others AC (of little value after a certain level) isn't a good focus for a character.

Improved trip+ knock down, combat reflexes+ stand still are good ways to crowd control bad guys with melee attacks, possibly using the dragon mag feat back stab for aoos when they attack allies. Eventually grabbing mage slayer as well. Maybe knockback too.

All of this adding up looks like a fighter build. Grabbing a level of rogue at higher level for 1d6 sneak attack and staggering strike and possibly two of barbarian for pounce and improved trip. I

I'm thinking medieval knight crossed with King Leonidas. Any other ideas for this sword and board warrior??

[Flickerdart]

How attached are you to the sword part? You can have a lot of fun by just wielding a (spiked) shield and using things like Blood-Spiked Charger to beat enemies to death with it.

Or do you specifically want a guy focused on using his shield to protect allies, and not (just) himself?

[Warrnan]

I'm trying to make a compendium of classic literature archetypes. I've seen some "double handing shields for 2x power attack damage" builds but they don't say knight in shining armor to me.

The knight, paladin and fighter classes seem like te best fit from a roleplay stand point. I'm completely in line with the "flavor is mutable" philosophy. Just trying to follow the archetype. Frankly Paladins and clerics have been done to death. This guy needs to be a muggle. Haha

[Fyndhal]

So I've read the sword and board handbook. Is there a typical build for a non tome of battle sword and shield user? I know that large amounts of defense = smart enemies avoiding the guy covered in metal.

This build is attempting to make the best mundane sword and board user, not debate about spiked chaines and aoos.

Allied defense and combat expertise looked good at first glance except I realized that giving others AC (of little value after a certain level) isn't a good focus for a character.

Improved trip+ knock down, combat reflexes+ stand still are good ways to crown control bad guys with melee attacks, possibly using the dragon mag feat back stab for aoos when they attack allies. Eventually grabbing mage slayer as well. Maybe knockback too.

All of this adding up looks like a fighter build. Grabbing a level of rogue at higher level for 1d6 sneak attack and staggering strike and possibly two of barbarian for pounce and improved trip. I

I'm thinking medieval knight crossed with King Leonidas. Any other ideas for this sword and board warrior??

A while ago, I made a pretty strong Tank style character. Changeling Fighter/Warshaper. He ended up with a low-ish AC, but a lot of Damage Reduction and immunity to a large number of things (like Stun and Critical Hits.) If I could find the character sheet, I'd post a link for reference, but, sadly, I can't find it.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I made a respectable-at-low-levels battlefield controller out of a mounted knight with a lance. Horsie gives mobility and reach, PHB2 shield feats and Mounted Combat give survivability against the mundane (and even touch spells with Shield Ward), lance helps with the reach further and sets you up for ubercharging when you actually need damage.

Throw in Leadership or Wild Cohort for a mount that levels with you and you'll do okay. Paladin would also work as a base (Paladin Mount + Divine Shield adding your Charisma to AC against everything thanks to Shield Ward).

Basically, I'd emphasize mounted combat as a combo with Sword and Board as 1) a mounted lance is the best one-handed option as far as damage and reach go and 2) it's easier to get between the bad guys and your allies. Plus, you're even more Historical Knight.

[Valwyn]

You could try a paladin or another character with high Cha and use the Goad feat to force enemies to attack you. Doesn't work with ranged attacks, but it might still be worth it.

Maybe something like Barbarian 2/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Paladin of Freedom X? You could give up your spells for bonus feats if you like.

[Extra Anchovies]

This is one of the few things that Complete Warrior is actually good at. Focus on bashing, and pick up Shield Charge and Shield Slam. With both feats, you can charge an enemy, hit them with a shield bash to deal some damage, daze them (DC 10 + 1/2 character level + Str), and knock them prone (standard trip attempt). If they stand up, you can hit them for some more damage, and then on your next turn spend a full-round action for another shield bash and a save-or-daze. It's a slow but quite effective way to take down single foes, but leaves you kind of vulnerable to groups.

[Forrestfire]

For protecting allies with your shield, I'd build a Wand Chamber into it, be a silverbrow human, and get a (refluffed) Wings of Cover wand. Now you've got the ability to, as an immediate action, block any attack targeted at you or something adjacent to you with your shield.

[Nifft]

So I've read the sword and board handbook. Is there a typical build for a non tome of battle sword and shield user? If you're looking for parity with ToB classes, then I'm not sure you can get there without using ToB classes, or using magic.

What about Cleric 20?

Or Cleric 6 > Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)?

These aren't mundane, but they can be excellent melee fighters... and they've got excellent utility options for all those times when you're not in combat.

[OldTrees1]

So I've read the sword and board handbook. Is there a typical build for a non tome of battle sword and shield user? I know that large amounts of defense = smart enemies avoiding the guy covered in metal.

This build is attempting to make the best mundane sword and board user, not debate about spiked chaines and aoos.

I'm thinking medieval knight crossed with King Leonidas. Any other ideas for this sword and board warrior??

Goliath Rogue(Martial) 1 / Barbarian(Goliath, Spirit Lion, Wolf Totem) 2 / Rogue +3 / Warhulk 4 is a good staple for Non-TOB warriors for a variety of specialties. Throw on Psionic Rogue 1 to get Sneak Attack for Staggering Strike.

Feats of note: Combat Reflexes, Evasive Reflexes, Knock-down, Knockback, Shield Slam, Shield Ward, Staggering Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Extra Rage, Extend Rage(via Otyugh Hole)

[Fyndhal]

A while ago, I made a pretty strong Tank style character. Changeling Fighter/Warshaper. He ended up with a low-ish AC, but a lot of Damage Reduction and immunity to a large number of things (like Stun and Critical Hits.) If I could find the character sheet, I'd post a link for reference, but, sadly, I can't find it.

Found the character sheet!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r68eyiatpaan8ej/Glaron_Front.PDF?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v6q2hnxievudprm/Glaron_Back.pdf?dl=0

[Necroticplague]

Using a kusari-gama could synergize well with this, allowing you to combine the shield with typical spiked chain tripper use. Helps avoid the 'just go around you', when doing so provokes, shoves them back, and knocks them down.

[Pluto!]

Ranger's actually decent here, especially with Mystic Ranger.

Grab SpC; about half the Ranger entries pertain to TWF.

Use boosts like Hunter's Insight, Lion's Charge or even some of the dorky options like Blades of Fire to add to your beatdowns. Grab Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam and Shield Charge to add some rider effects on your shield bashes. Maybe add Shield Ward at higher levels, just because it's one of the most useful things you can do with a shield.

[Warrnan]

Found the character sheet!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r68eyiatpaan8ej/Glaron_Front.PDF?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v6q2hnxievudprm/Glaron_Back.pdf?dl=0
Hey man. Thanks for postin your build. I don't see any feats on either sheet though. Cool Idea though!

Ranger's actually decent here, especially with Mystic Ranger.

Grab SpC; about half the Ranger entries pertain to TWF.

Use boosts like Hunter's Insight, Lion's Charge or even some of the dorky options like Blades of Fire to add to your beatdowns. Grab Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam and Shield Charge to add some rider effects on your shield bashes. Maybe add Shield Ward at higher levels, just because it's one of the most useful things you can do with a shield.

Now I want to play a Link styled TWF sword and board ranger. Good ideas. Thanks!


Goliath Rogue(Martial) 1 / Barbarian(Goliath, Spirit Lion, Wolf Totem) 2 / Rogue +3 / Warhulk 4 is a good staple for Non-TOB warriors for a variety of specialties. Throw on Psionic Rogue 1 to get Sneak Attack for Staggering Strike.

Feats of note: Combat Reflexes, Evasive Reflexes, Knock-down, Knockback, Shield Slam, Shield Ward, Staggering Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Extra Rage, Extend Rage(via Otyugh Hole)

This is exactly what I was going for. How does the otyugh hole work and what book was it from? Thanks!


If you're looking for parity with ToB classes, then I'm not sure you can get there without using ToB classes, or using magic.

What about Cleric 20?

Or Cleric 6 > Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)?

These aren't mundane, but they can be excellent melee fighters... and they've got excellent utility options for all those times when you're not in combat.

Yes. I love Paladins and clerics too. I have a build for a two handed ordained champion/ prestige paladin with battle blessing. He is a beast. Currently working on "castle knight/ mundane soldier" for my build compendium instead of "holy champion". Pallys and clerics will always be my favorite though. Thanks.


I made a respectable-at-low-levels battlefield controller out of a mounted knight with a lance. Horsie gives mobility and reach, PHB2 shield feats and Mounted Combat give survivability against the mundane (and even touch spells with Shield Ward), lance helps with the reach further and sets you up for ubercharging when you actually need damage.

Throw in Leadership or Wild Cohort for a mount that levels with you and you'll do okay. Paladin would also work as a base (Paladin Mount + Divine Shield adding your Charisma to AC against everything thanks to Shield Ward).

Basically, I'd emphasize mounted combat as a combo with Sword and Board as 1) a mounted lance is the best one-handed option as far as damage and reach go and 2) it's easier to get between the bad guys and your allies. Plus, you're even more Historical Knight.

I will give this guy a lance for sure. Trying for a classic tank style build currently. But I bet your ideas here produce the best damage focused knight there is. Thanks!

[Fyndhal]

Hey man. Thanks for postin your build. I don't see any feats on either sheet though. Cool Idea though!

I thought so! Feats are in the Special Abilities section of the back page. Combat Expertise, Dodge, Power Attack, Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, Combat Focus, Combat Stability and Combat Vigor (Fast Healing 2 is so nice!)

[OldTrees1]

This is exactly what I was going for. How does the otyugh hole work and what book was it from? Thanks!

Glad to hear it. It really works well for many non-TOB melee builds. It works mostly off of getting more attacks per turn + more options per attack + more targets per attack. In addition it gets enough skill points and a good enough list to make headway in that direction. Although I messed up the build stub a bit.

Rogue 1 (Martial) / Barbarian 2 (Goliath, Spirit Lion, Wolf Totem) / Rogue +3 / Fighter 1 (Sneak Attack, Thug) / Warhulk 4 / mixture of Rogue +4 and Fighter +3 to reach +12 BAB at 18th / Rogue +2

Alternatively
Rogue 1 (Martial) / Barbarian 2 (Goliath, Spirit Lion, Wolf Totem) / Rogue +3 / Fighter 1 (Sneak Attack, Thug) / Warhulk 4 / Scarlet Corsair (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050805b) 5 / Rogue +4

Otyugh Hole is a magical location in Complete Scoundrel that confers a benefit worth 3000gp. Bascially you did something bad enough to be worth being thrown into this tortuous prison. At the end of your sentence you gained a bonus feat(mostly used to get Iron Will but it also can grant Extend Rage) as a result of surviving the prison.

[Warrnan]

I thought so! Feats are in the Special Abilities section of the back page. Combat Expertise, Dodge, Power Attack, Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, Combat Focus, Combat Stability and Combat Vigor (Fast Healing 2 is so nice!)

I love fast healing! Thanks for pointing this out. Normally Draconic aura (vigor) is my go to for that but sometimes you don't want to be dragonblooded or need fast healing above 50% health. Good find!

I see your feats now. I just didn't look far enough down. Thanks!


Glad to hear it. It really works well for many non-TOB melee builds. It works mostly off of getting more attacks per turn + more options per attack + more targets per attack. In addition it gets enough skill points and a good enough list to make headway in that direction. Although I messed up the build stub a bit.

Rogue 1 (Martial) / Barbarian 2 (Goliath, Spirit Lion, Wolf Totem) / Rogue +3 / Fighter 1 (Sneak Attack, Thug) / Warhulk 4 / mixture of Rogue +4 and Fighter +3 to reach +12 BAB at 18th / Rogue +2

Alternatively
Rogue 1 (Martial) / Barbarian 2 (Goliath, Spirit Lion, Wolf Totem) / Rogue +3 / Fighter 1 (Sneak Attack, Thug) / Warhulk 4 / Scarlet Corsair (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050805b) 5 / Rogue +4

Otyugh Hole is a magical location in Complete Scoundrel that confers a benefit worth 3000gp. Bascially you did something bad enough to be worth being thrown into this tortuous prison. At the end of your sentence you gained a bonus feat(mostly used to get Iron Will but it also can grant Extend Rage) as a result of surviving the prison.

Great work! That is amazing. Putting a war hulk in my build compendium. Gotta love the huge bulldozer warrior!

[Vhaidara]

You seem to have at least some grasp on the hell you're getting into trying to make a tank, but I would be remiss if I didn't make sure you understand that what you are trying (mundane only sword and board tank not using ToB) is nearly impossible, as explained in the tanking paradox
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?417143-The-Tanking-Paradox-Why-It-Doesn-t-Work-The-Way-You-Think

As a note, I love playing tanks. Constantly trying to get it to work is what brought me to my conclusions.

The third reply to that thread puts down the primary methods of tanking. The problem you'll face is that you build can't do any of them.
Hard tanking: you're not mobile, and can't shape the battlefield
Soft tanking: not appreciable out of ToB
Mitigation: not possible as a mundane
Bfc: possible as a mundane, but you will lack the reach of a two handed weapon and (likely) the dexterity to utilize combat reflexes appropriately (since the classic image is heavy armor)

[Darrin]

How about some Axe & Board... Agile Shield Fighter (PHBII) allows you to TWF a heavy shield as if it were a light weapon for TWF, but still treat it as one-handed for Power Attack.

Race: Dwarf
1) Fighter 1. Feat: TWF. Bonus: Improved Shield Bash.
2) Fighter 2. Bonus: Power Attack.
3) Fighter 3. Feat: Shield Specialization:Heavy (PHBII).
4) Fighter 4. Bonus: Agile Shield Fighter (PHBII).
5) Fighter 5.
6) Fighter 6. Feat: Leap Attack (CAdv). Bonus: Improved TWF.
7) Barbarian 1. Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce (Champ). Whirling Frenzy ACF (UA).
8) Barbarian 2. Wolf Totem -> Improved Trip (UA).
9) Fighter 7. Feat: Shield Charge (CWar).
10) Fighter 8. Bonus: Shield Slam (CWar).
11) Fighter 9.
12) Fighter 10. Feat: Improved Bull Rush. Bonus: Shock Trooper (CWar).
13) Fighter 11.
14) Fighter 12. Bonus: Greater TWF.
15) Fighter 13. Feat: Knock-Down (SRD:Divine Feats).
16) Fighter 14. Bonus: Combat Reflexes.
17) Fighter 15.
18) Fighter 16. Feat: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook). Bonus: Robilar's Gambit (PHBII).
19) Fighter 17.
20) Fighter 18. Bonus: Two-Weapon Rend (PHBII)

Or how about a Swift Hunter TWF/Sword&Board with a Dwarven Waraxe and a Light Shield or Dwarven Buckler-Axe (use the Weapon Familiarity optional rules in Complete Warrior to switch proficiency with Dwarven Urgrosh to Dwarven Buckler-Axe).

Race: Jungle Dwarf (UA)
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion, Bonus: Track.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF.
3) Scout 1. Feat: Combat Reflexes. Skirmish 1d6.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
6) Ranger 3. Feat: Swift Hunter. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
7) Ranger 4. Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII). Skirmish 2d6AC+2.
8) Ranger 5.
9) Ranger 6. Bonus: Improved TWF. Feat: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook). Skirmish 3d6AC+2.
10) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6+4.
11) Highland Stalker 1.
12) Highland Stalker 2. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
13) Ranger 7. Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
14) Ranger 8.
15) Ranger 9. Feat: Robilar's Gambit. Skirmish 5d6AC+3/7d6AC+5.
16) Ranger 10.
17) Ranger 11. Bonus: Greater TWF. Skirmish 5d6AC+4/7d6AC+6.
18) Ranger 12. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3)
19) Ranger 13. Camouflage. Skirmish 6d6AC+4/8d6AC+6.
20) Ranger 14. 4th level spells.

Hmm. No Improved Shield Bash... that last one may need to be reworked.

[Warrnan]

You seem to have at least some grasp on the hell you're getting into trying to make a tank, but I would be remiss if I didn't make sure you understand that what you are trying (mundane only sword and board tank not using ToB) is nearly impossible, as explained in the tanking paradox
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?417143-The-Tanking-Paradox-Why-It-Doesn-t-Work-The-Way-You-Think

As a note, I love playing tanks. Constantly trying to get it to work is what brought me to my conclusions.

The third reply to that thread puts down the primary methods of tanking. The problem you'll face is that you build can't do any of them.
Hard tanking: you're not mobile, and can't shape the battlefield
Soft tanking: not appreciable out of ToB
Mitigation: not possible as a mundane
Bfc: possible as a mundane, but you will lack the reach of a two handed weapon and (likely) the dexterity to utilize combat reflexes appropriately (since the classic image is heavy armor)
Yes, as a veteran optimizer, you would be remiss for not encouraging, spells, psionics, and tome of battle. It's very good advice and I thank you. 😄

This time, I'm not trying to make the best tank. I simply want the "best possible given the parameters" sword and shield user to add a classic, albeit low teir, build to my build library. How many times have you had a new 3.5 player want to play the sword and shield guy?

Frankly I find it quite strange that this hero is so problematic to make. It's probably the most common type of hero in all medieval fantasy and was the most common fighting style in Europe for hundreds of years and ancient times as well. Because avoiding death was more important to real soldiers than how many enemies they killed.

Some games and Dms just don't like TOB (my current DM and bestfriend for 15 years). It's sort of a "gift build" for him if you will.

I appreciate everyone's wisdom and help. Thanks for being so knowledgable!



How about some Axe & Board... Agile Shield Fighter (PHBII) allows you to TWF a heavy shield as if it were a light weapon for TWF, but still treat it as one-handed for Power Attack.

Race: Dwarf
1) Fighter 1. Feat: TWF. Bonus: Improved Shield Bash.
2) Fighter 2. Bonus: Power Attack.
3) Fighter 3. Feat: Shield Specialization:Heavy (PHBII).
4) Fighter 4. Bonus: Agile Shield Fighter (PHBII).
5) Fighter 5.
6) Fighter 6. Feat: Leap Attack (CAdv). Bonus: Improved TWF.
7) Barbarian 1. Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce (Champ). Whirling Frenzy ACF (UA).
8) Barbarian 2. Wolf Totem -> Improved Trip (UA).
9) Fighter 7. Feat: Shield Charge (CWar).
10) Fighter 8. Bonus: Shield Slam (CWar).
11) Fighter 9.
12) Fighter 10. Feat: Improved Bull Rush. Bonus: Shock Trooper (CWar).
13) Fighter 11.
14) Fighter 12. Bonus: Greater TWF.
15) Fighter 13. Feat: Knock-Down (SRD:Divine Feats).
16) Fighter 14. Bonus: Combat Reflexes.
17) Fighter 15.
18) Fighter 16. Feat: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook). Bonus: Robilar's Gambit (PHBII).
19) Fighter 17.
20) Fighter 18. Bonus: Two-Weapon Rend (PHBII)

Or how about a Swift Hunter TWF/Sword&Board with a Dwarven Waraxe and a Light Shield or Dwarven Buckler-Axe (use the Weapon Familiarity optional rules in Complete Warrior to switch proficiency with Dwarven Urgrosh to Dwarven Buckler-Axe).

Race: Jungle Dwarf (UA)
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion, Bonus: Track.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF.
3) Scout 1. Feat: Combat Reflexes. Skirmish 1d6.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
6) Ranger 3. Feat: Swift Hunter. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
7) Ranger 4. Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII). Skirmish 2d6AC+2.
8) Ranger 5.
9) Ranger 6. Bonus: Improved TWF. Feat: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook). Skirmish 3d6AC+2.
10) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6+4.
11) Highland Stalker 1.
12) Highland Stalker 2. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
13) Ranger 7. Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
14) Ranger 8.
15) Ranger 9. Feat: Robilar's Gambit. Skirmish 5d6AC+3/7d6AC+5.
16) Ranger 10.
17) Ranger 11. Bonus: Greater TWF. Skirmish 5d6AC+4/7d6AC+6.
18) Ranger 12. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3)
19) Ranger 13. Camouflage. Skirmish 6d6AC+4/8d6AC+6.
20) Ranger 14. 4th level spells.

Hmm. No Improved Shield Bash... that last one may need to be reworked.

I had never considered a skirmish build. Sounds like a fun idea! Thanks. I really like the dwarf one, like gimli with a shield. Great idea.

[Forrestfire]

Hmm. No Improved Shield Bash... that last one may need to be reworked.

You could just get a Bashing shield and skip the feat, iirc?

[Vhaidara]

Oh, one of my first characters was a sword and board. I fully understand the appeal. It's just that without ToB, it is the second weakest combat style in the game (one handed str based with empty off hand is weakest).

It isn't just that you won't be the best, it runs into the issue of not working as advertised. The tankier you are, the more you encourage enemies to hit your allies instead of you.

[Extra Anchovies]

Sword + board is still weak relative to the other fighting styles in ToB. Sure, strikes help it out some damage-wise (Stone Dragon has some good raw-damage stuff), but THF gets the bonus damage from those too. And there's only one shield-based maneuver.

So ToB doesn't fix sword and board. It makes it stronger, but only in relation to where it was, not in relation to the other fighting styles.

[Vhaidara]

Well, you also become less dependent on your weapon or str bonus for damage. Maneuvers add the same damage no matter what.

Also, I use ToB and pow interchangeably at this point.

[Warrnan]

Oh, one of my first characters was a sword and board. I fully understand the appeal. It's just that without ToB, it is the second weakest combat style in the game (one handed str based with empty off hand is weakest).

It isn't just that you won't be the best, it runs into the issue of not working as advertised. The tankier you are, the more you encourage enemies to hit your allies instead of you.

Here's a small caveat. my focus will not be on surviving as much as CCing the enemies with knockdown and such. I have in the past gotten dm ok for a devoted spirit amulet. I bet he will allow me to grab shield block as a martial study feat and perhaps iron guard's glare on an amulet. These are straightforward and simple to drop into any game. I think it will make a good amount of difference.

With another dm I have gone full crusader with a reach weapon and found it to be glorious. I love crusader for sure.

[frogglesmash]

I've never seen this suggested before which means it's probably not a great idea, but how would sword and board interacted with a dual-wielding, sneak attack/skirmish/sudden strike build? Is it even worth thinking about? I gotta say, the idea of idea of shield bashing someone in a "precise" manner makes me want to giggle.

[Darrin]

You could just get a Bashing shield and skip the feat, iirc?

Bashing shield is sort of a given. The issue is if you attack with the shield, you lose the shield bonus on your AC for that round. If you're doing TWF properly, then ideally you're always full attacking every round, and thus your offhand weapon is not providing any AC bonus without Improved Shield Bash. If that's the case, then there's no point in carrying a shield, just switch to a more versatile offhand weapon such as a shortsword. At that point, you're no longer "Sword & Board", just straight-up TWF.

If we switch the dwarf to human and just use a typical longsword/light shield combo, a "Sword & Board Swift Hunter" would look something like:

Race: Human.
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion, Human: Improved Shield Bash. Bonus: Track.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF.
3) Scout 1. Feat: Combat Reflexes. Skirmish 1d6.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
6) Ranger 3. Feat: Swift Hunter. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
7) Ranger 4. Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII). Skirmish 2d6AC+2.
8) Ranger 5.
9) Ranger 6. Bonus: Improved TWF. Feat: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook). Skirmish 3d6AC+2.
10) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6+4.
11) Highland Stalker 1.
12) Highland Stalker 2. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
13) Ranger 7. Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
14) Ranger 8.
15) Ranger 9. Feat: Robilar's Gambit. Skirmish 5d6AC+3/7d6AC+5.
16) Ranger 10.
17) Ranger 11. Bonus: Greater TWF. Skirmish 5d6AC+4/7d6AC+6.
18) Ranger 12. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3)
19) Ranger 13. Camouflage. Skirmish 6d6AC+4/8d6AC+6.
20) Ranger 14. 4th level spells.

There's room to squeeze in a Fighter level if you need another feat, but you lose 4th level spells and may run into a multiclass penalty. You can avoid the multiclass penalty by going Dragonborn of Bahumat, and you can even keep your human bonus feat by losing Endurance instead (Races of the Dragon, left column, bottom of page 10). This makes Fighter one of your favored classes, as well as gives you a breath weapon or flight. We can also pick up an extra bonus feat from Races of Stone (p. 139), swapping our tower shield proficiency from Fighter for Exotic Shield Proficiency. From there, we have several options:

1) Heart Aspect: Trade Exotic Shield Proficiency for Dragon Wings. At 12th level, take Improved Dragon Wings. This gives us both a fly speed and a breath weapon.

2) Wings Aspect: Trade Exotic Shield Proficiency for Dragon Tail. At 12th level, take Prehensile Tail (Savage Species/Serpent Kingdoms). This gives us a fly speed and a third hand to hold our light shield while wielding a two-handed weapon such as a greatsword.

3) Heart/Mind/Wings Aspect: Ignore the feat swap, take Dragonfire Strike at 12th instead. This increases our Skirmish damage by +1d6 and makes it [fire] damage.

Race: Human.
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion, Bonus: Improved Shield Bash. Bonus: Track.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF.
3) Scout 1. Feat: Combat Reflexes. Skirmish 1d6.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
6) Ranger 3. Feat: Swift Hunter. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
7) Ranger 4. Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII). Skirmish 2d6AC+2.
8) Ranger 5.
9) Ranger 6. Bonus: Improved TWF. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Skirmish 3d6AC+2.
10) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6+4.
11) Fighter 1. Bonus: Double Hit. Bonus: Exotic Shield Proficiency -> Dragon Tail/Dragon Wings. (Go Dragonborn here.)
12) Highland Stalker 1. Feat: Improved Dragon Wings/Prehensile Tail.
13) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
14) Ranger 7. Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
15) Ranger 8. Feat: Robilar's Gambit.
16) Ranger 9. Skirmish 5d6AC+3/7d6AC+5.
17) Ranger 10.
18) Ranger 11. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3). Bonus: Greater TWF. Skirmish 5d6AC+4/7d6AC+6.
19) Ranger 12.
20) Ranger 13. Camouflage. Skirmish 6d6AC+4/8d6AC+6.

[Emperor Tippy]

I've never seen this suggested before which means it's probably not a great idea, but how would sword and board interacted with a dual-wielding, sneak attack/skirmish/sudden strike build? Is it even worth thinking about? I gotta say, the idea of idea of shield bashing someone in a "precise" manner makes me want to giggle.

If I was building a sword and board hero I would go with a Factotum base probably, so take that as you will.

Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Swashbuckler 3/ Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Fighter 6 probably.

Grab Craven, Martial Stance: Assassins Stance, Shadow Blade, and a lot of Font of Inspiration.

Important abilities (in order) are Int, Dex, Strength. Basic idea is to use Cunning Surge at the start of your turn for an extra Standard Action to move within range of an enemy before using Decisive Strike as your full round action to double damage against that foe for the rest of the round. Then you spend your IP on Cunning Surge (with Cunning Insight for Damage and Attack as needed). You get 2x(base damage + Str + Dex + 2xInt + HD)+3d6 damage on every attack.

It's not the best damage but it is solid damage, solid attack, solid skill monkey, solid tactical mobility, solid scout.

That would be my basic inclination with tweaking done depending upon how I specifically want to take the character (Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, Shock Trooper, Power Attack in exchange for one Monk level if I feel like more charge, for example; or drop the Rogue, Martial Stance, Shadow Blade, and Craven if I want more shield focused abilities).

[Endarire]

Remember, unlike in much of fantasy and historical tactics, things are better than weapon/shield. Like, most of them. There's a reason that Captain America is a superhero while most people around him used guns. It's because plot armor. Also, in that universe, the stuff he was typically fighting didn't have claw/claw/bite/wing/wing/tail/tail with a breath weapon and spells at the ready. The Captain was useful because people used guns. He was a great counter to that.

In the second Avengers movie, Stark remarks how he pays for everything, designs everything, and builds everything. He's a super-rich artificer (in D&D terms) who can supply the team and basically be the movie's main character for how useful he is.

Captain America is just a strong, nimble athletic guy who throws a shield. He can't fly, and the movie brings this up. Captain? Not very effective in comparison.

Remember, every warrior in literature/fiction who ever slayed a spellcaster did so because plot. Not necessarily internal logic, but plot.

Also, why the hesitance to use Tome of Battle: The Book of Martial Awesomesauce-Compared-to-Other-Martials?

[Aetis]

The classic sword and board heroes didn't really use their shield for anything but defending themselves.

Go fighter/knight with steadfast determination/shield spec/ward. Your only advantage over THfighter is your AC, so in fights, go absorb opening charges and try not to get mind controlled/cc'd. They can't charge past you thanks to bulwark, so you can at least buy a turn. And your mages only need one turn.

[Rubik]

I'm trying to make a compendium of classic literature archetypes. I've seen some "double handing shields for 2x power attack damage" builds but they don't say knight in shining armor to me.How about "knight in shining Spandex"?

http://i1.wp.com/cdn.bgr.com/2014/04/captain-america.jpg?w=625

[Flickerdart]

They can't charge past you thanks to bulwark
Yes, they can. Bulwark of Defense only affects foes that start their turn inside your reach. The only way it helps prevent the enemy from charging is if you have a godly reach and super-good initiative so you can get the first turn. Oh, and high speed, so watch out for that heavy armor!

[Aetis]

oh wow

never mind about taking knight levels

[Troacctid]

Yes, they can. Bulwark of Defense only affects foes that start their turn inside your reach. The only way it helps prevent the enemy from charging is if you have a godly reach and super-good initiative so you can get the first turn. Oh, and high speed, so watch out for that heavy armor!

Steadfast Boots do a plenty good job stopping charges anyway, as do normal opportunity attacks if you have reach. Bulwark of Defense is better at saying "Neener neener!" to anyone with less reach than you who tries to engage you in melee.

[kkplx]

Found the character sheet!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r68eyiatpaan8ej/Glaron_Front.PDF?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v6q2hnxievudprm/Glaron_Back.pdf?dl=0

oooh, nice one - would you mind if used that for an npc in my campaign in the near future? ;)

[Nerd-o-rama]

Remember, every warrior in literature/fiction who ever slayed a spellcaster did so because plot. Not necessarily internal logic, but plot.

See, this right here is why sword-and-board is terrible in D&D 3.5. Not because it's true, but because it's what the designers of the system believe and, intentionally or not, how they designed the game. All mundane classes are less optimal than all entirely spellcasting-focused classes, period, and you really just have to accept that as a quirk of D&D 3.5. Even the best martial classes, the Martial Adept trio, are only "very good at one thing" as opposed to Wizards or Clerics' "very good at anything/everything".


Yes, they can. Bulwark of Defense only affects foes that start their turn inside your reach. The only way it helps prevent the enemy from charging is if you have a godly reach and super-good initiative so you can get the first turn. Oh, and high speed, so watch out for that heavy armor!

If you are going to play a Knight, ride a horse. Solves your heavy armor mobility problems. Initiative is a problem, though.

Horse doesn't work in a dungeon? Well, there's a reason knights didn't generally go there in real life, other than the fact that tombs full of loot were rare and usually not guarded by monsters. You could also play a gnome/halfling on a dog and have better AC anyway, but you sacrifice reach. But if you're tunnel-crawling...

[Flickerdart]

If you are going to play a Knight, ride a horse. Solves your heavy armor mobility problems.
Horses do this thing called "dying" that isn't very convenient. Any mounted combatant needs to invest in a mount with scaling HP (or straight up invulnerability, such as a phantom steed).

[Nerd-o-rama]

Horses do this thing called "dying" that isn't very convenient. Any mounted combatant needs to invest in a mount with scaling HP (or straight up invulnerability, such as a phantom steed).

Which comes conveniently with either a single feat (Wild Cohort or, preferably, Leadership) or a class feature of a class that already does okay with shields and heavy armor.

[Flickerdart]

Wild Cohort mounts don't actually keep up very well, given their ultra-nerfed progression. Leadership is, well, Leadership.

And yes, you can always just be a paladin, but then you're not doing capital-K knight.

[Extra Anchovies]

Wild Cohort mounts don't actually keep up very well, given their ultra-nerfed progression. Leadership is, well, Leadership.

I wouldn't call it ultra-nerfed. They're down 1 HD, 1 natural armor, 1 Str/Dex, and 1 trick at all levels. That's more like "slightly behind".

[Flickerdart]

I wouldn't call it ultra-nerfed. They're down 1 HD, 1 natural armor, 1 Str/Dex, and 1 trick at all levels. That's more like "slightly behind".
You're also treated as 3 levels lower when upgrading to a better cohort, which means you're a few HDs behind. Compare dire bear to t-rex, for example.

[frost890]

Are you talking about a "Classic Knight" from gaming, history or books? History they used the shield as a weapon. It was a basic part of the training. Even a buckler. They used the edge (often shaped or with spikes.) And as a fist pack style. In 3.5 it is a little harder since you have to spend feats for it but TWF is the way to go. Our group does away with class skills so using UMD with a wand chamber is recommended at higher levels if you can. (it is a fantasy setting after all.) Now if you can get a hold of a animated shield and use a bastard sword could work for theam and style if you want to focus on two handed.

[Elkad]

Horses do this thing called "dying" that isn't very convenient. Any mounted combatant needs to invest in a mount with scaling HP (or straight up invulnerability, such as a phantom steed).


Phantom Steed isn't anything like invulnerable. They die if you even look at them funny. AC18 and 7+CL hitpoints.


Regarding using shields for actual defense instead of smashing people, the only way they make sense is if you change the rules so you get a useful amount of defense out of them. 3-4 points of AC isn't worth giving up 2x power attack for. If you got to add your BAB to the shield AC bonus, a shield would be worth it.
But even then they don't stop the bad guys from just running past you to geek the mage, so you still need to load up on BFC feats.

[Warrnan]

Yes. Crowd control is my primary idea. Cc them. Do mediocre damage. Soak some hits.

[Fyndhal]

oooh, nice one - would you mind if used that for an npc in my campaign in the near future? ;)

Sure thing, enjoy! Pop me a PM and let me know how it goes. :)

[Vhaidara]

Yes. Crowd control is my primary idea. Cc them. Do mediocre damage. Soak some hits.

The problem there is that you need a trip weapon, and you want reach.
The reason this is a problem is that the only non-exotic, non-two handed weapons with trip are the Sickle and the Flail (Exotic adds the Kama and the Whip). None of these fit the image you are looking for (traditional knight). And of these, only the whip provides reach (except it doesn't threaten, can't do lethal damage, and can't do any damage past armor or a small amount of natural armor)

[Warrnan]

Currently with my dm, if you have the knockdown feat, you can swing for the fences and knock someone off their feet with shear force.

I think it is a completely valid interpretation because with any stick shaped weapon IRL you can trip someone. Quarter staff, axe, greatsword, spear or even hammer would make sense. You aren't so much hooking their leg and pulling as you are hitting them in the knee or tipping them over.

It may not be raw but it makes melee more exciting and I'm a firm believer that melee deserve nice things.

And with knock down they don't get to try and trip you back, a stupid mechanic I've always hated, especially since monsters are usually larger and stronger than heros.

"You can trip them with your shield, you can trip them in a field, you can trip them near and far. You can trip them in a bar. You can trip them here or there. You can trip them anywhere!"

[Vhaidara]

Ah, didn't realize you had knockdown. Knockdown actually does work like that (it's a trip attempt in addition to attacking, the trip weapons are in place of attacking).

That still leaves you starved for Reach. A 3x3 block (threatened area of a medium creature) doesn't really block all that much. The 6x6 you get when enlarged is nice, but that hurts your Dex, which you need for Combat Reflexes (otherwise you are only able to stop 1 guy a turn)

[OldTrees1]

Ah, didn't realize you had knockdown. Knockdown actually does work like that (it's a trip attempt in addition to attacking, the trip weapons are in place of attacking).

That still leaves you starved for Reach. A 3x3 block (threatened area of a medium creature) doesn't really block all that much. The 6x6 you get when enlarged is nice, but that hurts your Dex, which you need for Combat Reflexes (otherwise you are only able to stop 1 guy a turn)

Enlarged/Goliath Mountain Rage does not hurt your Dex significantly. Just make a 14 Dex(post -2 penalty) and boost via Gloves of Dex.

[Warrnan]

Yes. His reach won't be great. However. I think I'm going to use breastplate armor and then later mithril fullplate. Trying to maintain moderate amount of Dex and get some initiative boosting item and utilize pounce to cc a few enemies.

I think this will make a decent bruiser/mobility/survivability Knight. King Leonidas and Sir Gawain will be pleased.

ONE LAST QUESTION: avoiding a double post here.

Whirling frenzy seems to be the way to go. However, would the -2 to all attack that round (including my up to 3 aoos at level 1) be enough of a deterrent to give up the frenzy in favor of standard rage. One less attack, effective +2 to hit on everything and the 4 con and 2 more rounds of rage seem like a possibly better deal than just one extra attack.

Thoughts?