Double Cha bonus to attacks?

[GiantOctopodes]

Devotion Paladins get Sacred Weapon, which adds Cha bonus to attack rolls with the affected weapon.

Bards get magical secrets, which can be cantrips, and count as Bard spells (which have a spellcasting ability of charisma).

Shillelagh has you use your spellcasting modifier instead of strength for attack and damage rolls with the weapon in question.

So, if you combined them all, would you get Prof+Cha+Cha to attack and 1d8+Cha to damage?

[Safety Sword]

Devotion Paladins get Sacred Weapon, which adds Cha bonus to attack rolls with the affected weapon.

Bards get magical secrets, which can be cantrips, and count as Bard spells (which have a spellcasting ability of charisma).

Shillelagh has you use your spellcasting modifier instead of strength for attack and damage rolls with the weapon in question.

So, if you combined them all, would you get Prof+Cha+Cha to attack and 1d8+Cha to damage?

Pretty sure there's a rule that says you can't add the same bonus from two different sources to the one roll.

No way to check at the moment though.

[coredump]

Yeah, that should work. I don't see it being much of an advantage... but a cool thought experiment.

[Xetheral]

It works fine as I understand the rules in question.

[Citan]

Devotion Paladins get Sacred Weapon, which adds Cha bonus to attack rolls with the affected weapon.

Bards get magical secrets, which can be cantrips, and count as Bard spells (which have a spellcasting ability of charisma).

Shillelagh has you use your spellcasting modifier instead of strength for attack and damage rolls with the weapon in question.

So, if you combined them all, would you get Prof+Cha+Cha to attack and 1d8+Cha to damage?
Sure Mate, it's even one pillar of some of my builds. :)
Many things can benefit from high CHA by the way, which definitely makes it the most important stat just behind (or before, depending on your build) DEX.

I prefer Devotion Paladins because it can offset nicely the penalty to hit from Sharpshooter/GWM, but you could also prefer being the more powerful and go Oathbreaker.

Or mix&match to create stupid builds. Like...

Meet C.H.A (Crual Hitter of Anything... Ok it's seriously bad, no inspiration for acronyms tonight).
Bladelock 12 / Devotion 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / BM 3.
MAD because DEX, STR and CHA.
But you get +CHA to damage (Lifedrinker), +CHA to hit (Sacred Weapon), +CHA to Initiative (Swashbuckler), Battlemaster here just for fun and Rally (THP 1d8+CHA).
Also Inspiring Leader feat obviously. :)

Not a min-maxed build by far. Just a very very charismatic character. ^^^

[GiantOctopodes]

Sure Mate, it's even one pillar of some of my builds. :)
Many things can benefit from high CHA by the way, which definitely makes it the most important stat just behind (or before, depending on your build) DEX.

I prefer Devotion Paladins because it can offset nicely the penalty to hit from Sharpshooter/GWM, but you could also prefer being the more powerful and go Oathbreaker.

Or mix&match to create stupid builds. Like...

Meet C.H.A (Crual Hitter of Anything... Ok it's seriously bad, no inspiration for acronyms tonight).
Bladelock 12 / Devotion 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / BM 3.
MAD because DEX, STR and CHA.
But you get +CHA to damage (Lifedrinker), +CHA to hit (Sacred Weapon), +CHA to Initiative (Swashbuckler), Battlemaster here just for fun and Rally (THP 1d8+CHA).
Also Inspiring Leader feat obviously. :)

Not a min-maxed build by far. Just a very very charismatic character. ^^^

Good times! It seems I missed too that a Pact of the Tome Warlock gets 3 cantrips from any class, and can grab shillelagh as well, however they can't be both tome and blade so sadly you still can't attain double cha to both attack and damage (would require 21 levels, bladelock 12 / devotion paladin 3 / lore bard 6), at least not as far as I can see.

[Citan]

Good times! It seems I missed too that a Pact of the Tome Warlock gets 3 cantrips from any class, and can grab shillelagh as well, however they can't be both tome and blade so sadly you still can't attain double cha to both attack and damage (would require 21 levels, bladelock 12 / devotion paladin 3 / lore bard 6), at least not as far as I can see.
Well, sure you can. Simply go Lifedrinker Bladelock 12 + Oathbreaker Paladin 8.
I just suggested the Devotion build because I prefer a balance between +tohit and +damage, and Devotion Paladin 11 / Tomelock 3 is strictly better in solo than Oathbreaker 7 / Lifedrinker 12 in terms of physical damage.

[PoeticDwarf]

Devotion Paladins get Sacred Weapon, which adds Cha bonus to attack rolls with the affected weapon.

Bards get magical secrets, which can be cantrips, and count as Bard spells (which have a spellcasting ability of charisma).

Shillelagh has you use your spellcasting modifier instead of strength for attack and damage rolls with the weapon in question.

So, if you combined them all, would you get Prof+Cha+Cha to attack and 1d8+Cha to damage?

It could work, but you can just get the sacred weapon one minute/day, it isn't a big opportunity to do 2d8+10 damage / round with high to hit when you're level 11 at least (5 paladin for extra attack and sacred weapon, 6 lore bard for first magical secrets).

[Citan]

It could work, but you can just get the sacred weapon one minute/day, it isn't a big opportunity to do 2d8+10 damage / round with high to hit when you're level 11 at least (5 paladin for extra attack and sacred weapon, 6 lore bard for first magical secrets).
Wrong. :)
As for Cleric, you can replenish your Channel Divinity "slot" after a short rest. Fortunately!! Would really tone down the utility of Paladin's CD otherwise.

@GiantOctopodes: actually I already discussed this kind of optimization with Yagyujubei, see posts 45, 50 and 51 of the Mad melee challenge build thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19549542&postcount=45) if you want detailed arguments on the strenghs and weaknesses of each build.

As a bonus, an exemple of an actually pretty decent build riding on these CHA goodies with potentially MAD requirement but still viable.


Paladin Devotion 3: +CHA to attack rolls.
Paladin Devotion 6: +CHA to all saving throws.
Warlock Fiend/Tome 3: Eldricht Blast+Agonizing+Repelling for a good ranged attack. Get Shillelagh, Thorn Whip and Guidance/Resistance/ and any other.
Sorcerer 3: metamagic goodies for Quickened spell/cantrip and either Favored Soul Trickster or Tempest (Tempest better imo because free fly when casting).

So far so good: no MAD (only CHA and STR), still 5 to distribute for more ASI, auras or spells (or take Battlemaster 3 to have fun with Manoeuvers, or Bard up to five to Bardic Inspiration, Song of rest etc).

If you enter MAD range then...
Rogue 3 Swashbuckler (DEX): +CHA to initiative, Expertises, Cunning Action, 1d6 SA which are wasted with this build (since Shillelagh).
Ranger Hunter 3 (DEX+WIS): Fighting Style, a few good spells, Colossus Slayer or Horde Breaker.
Monk 5 Open Hand (DEX+WIS): Extra attacks on which to smite, free positioning/enabling on Unarmed Strike.
Cleric 1-2 (WIS): to get CD alternative and other abilities.
Druid 1-2 (WIS): just for wild shaping fun and a few more utility spells.
Wizard 2 (INT) to get either Abjurer (shield) or Diviner (Portent).

Biggest problem of all this cherry-picking is lack of ASI/Feats. Manageable if you stay STR/CHA melee build, otherwise impossible to optimize unless great rolling starting stats.


For example, using all the non-MAD classes, Devotion Paladin 6 / Bard 6 & Tome Warlock 5 / Favored Soul Sorcerer 3 (or reverse). Paladin with smites on steroids, spell versatility (+rituals), great ranged cantrip (Eldricht Blast), warlock slots either for smite or recharging metamagics.
You can also max CHA with ASI+Feat or 2 ASI, you stil can take Warcaster. Sure you get only one/two feats, but your many abilities compensate this imo.
Pretty much my next character. :)


For more ASI, Paladin 6 / Bard 6 / Warlock 2 / Battlemaster 6 works pretty well too (you forego Pact and Metamagic fun for Battlemaster fun and 2 ASI).

For best standard physical damage, Oathbreaker 11 / Ranger 3 Horde Breaker / Monk Open Hand 7 (WIS and DEX requirement): more attacks on which Paladin +damage applies, and can stack with Elemental Weapon.

[charcoalninja]

Wrong. :)
As for Cleric, you can replenish your Channel Divinity "slot" after a short rest. Fortunately!! Would really tone down the utility of Paladin's CD otherwise.

@GiantOctopodes: actually I already discussed this kind of optimization with Yagyujubei, see posts 45, 50 and 51 of the Mad melee challenge build thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19549542&postcount=45) if you want detailed arguments on the strenghs and weaknesses of each build.

As a bonus, an exemple of an actually pretty decent build riding on these CHA goodies with potentially MAD requirement but still viable.


Paladin Devotion 3: +CHA to attack rolls.
Paladin Devotion 6: +CHA to all saving throws.
Warlock Fiend/Tome 3: Eldricht Blast+Agonizing+Repelling for a good ranged attack. Get Shillelagh, Thorn Whip and Guidance/Resistance/ and any other.
Sorcerer 3: metamagic goodies for Quickened spell/cantrip and either Favored Soul Trickster or Tempest (Tempest better imo because free fly when casting).

So far so good: no MAD (only CHA and STR), still 5 to distribute for more ASI, auras or spells (or take Battlemaster 3 to have fun with Manoeuvers, or Bard up to five to Bardic Inspiration, Song of rest etc).

If you enter MAD range then...
Rogue 3 Swashbuckler (DEX): +CHA to initiative, Expertises, Cunning Action, 1d6 SA which are wasted with this build (since Shillelagh).
Ranger Hunter 3 (DEX+WIS): Fighting Style, a few good spells, Colossus Slayer or Horde Breaker.
Monk 5 Open Hand (DEX+WIS): Extra attacks on which to smite, free positioning/enabling on Unarmed Strike.
Cleric 1-2 (WIS): to get CD alternative and other abilities.
Druid 1-2 (WIS): just for wild shaping fun and a few more utility spells.
Wizard 2 (INT) to get either Abjurer (shield) or Diviner (Portent).

Biggest problem of all this cherry-picking is lack of ASI/Feats. Manageable if you stay STR/CHA melee build, otherwise impossible to optimize unless great rolling starting stats.


For example, using all the non-MAD classes, Devotion Paladin 6 / Bard 6 & Tome Warlock 5 / Favored Soul Sorcerer 3 (or reverse). Paladin with smites on steroids, spell versatility (+rituals), great ranged cantrip (Eldricht Blast), warlock slots either for smite or recharging metamagics.
You can also max CHA with ASI+Feat or 2 ASI, you stil can take Warcaster. Sure you get only one/two feats, but your many abilities compensate this imo.
Pretty much my next character. :)


For more ASI, Paladin 6 / Bard 6 / Warlock 2 / Battlemaster 6 works pretty well too (you forego Pact and Metamagic fun for Battlemaster fun and 2 ASI).

For best standard physical damage, Oathbreaker 11 / Ranger 3 Horde Breaker / Monk Open Hand 7 (WIS and DEX requirement): more attacks on which Paladin +damage applies, and can stack with Elemental Weapon.


Just a point here. Warlock pact magic slots cannot be used for Paladin smites. Smite can only be triggered from Paladin slots, so normal multiclassing slots work, however the multiclass rules for pact magic don't allow those slots to count as class based spell slots, but rather explicitly allow the casting of spells from other classes using them. So a Paladin can only use warlock spell slots for casting spells, not for smiting.

[coredump]

Slots are slots. There is no such thing as "warlock slots" etc.
Further, the smite rules have been errata'd

[youtellatale]

Just a point here. Warlock pact magic slots cannot be used for Paladin smites. Smite can only be triggered from Paladin slots, so normal multiclassing slots work, however the multiclass rules for pact magic don't allow those slots to count as class based spell slots, but rather explicitly allow the casting of spells from other classes using them. So a Paladin can only use warlock spell slots for casting spells, not for smiting.

Unfortunately you're wrong, very wrong in fact. It's been explicitly stated that you can use whatever spell slots you have for smites.

Here's where it is in the PHB errata: http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/Errata_PH.pdf

[D.U.P.A.]

What about if you hold a sling, making it sacred, use a Magic stone cantrip (obtainable by multiclass warlock or feat), you add Cha bonus to attack? Is this possible?

[Citan]

What about if you hold a sling, making it sacred, use a Magic stone cantrip (obtainable by multiclass warlock or feat), you add Cha bonus to attack? Is this possible?
Hey, thanks for joining the CHA-lovers's corner! ^^

Sure, it works. Sacred Weapon does not restrict itself to melee weapon (reason why it's so good on any build) so it works.
Reason why Magic Stone is not often brought to light (by me at least) is that it's a big pain in the *** to use. Whereas Shillelagh costs one action for a whole minute, you have to use Magic Stone EVERY THREE STONES. Making it situational at best beynd the very first levels: unless you're a CHA-main ranged build (which would be very clunky) you won't be able to shoot more than one stone at a time (plz correct me if I'm wrong not totally sure of this), and if you're high on CHA you'll certainly have more potent cantrips to use (if only because they power up with character level or provide added benefit).

Could be good though as a support spell for a gunslinger with medium attack stat. But again, 3 stones at a time makes it basically a "one-shot" ability.

Frankly, concept was nice, but I really don't understand why they made such heavy restrictions. It would have been easy to make it as good as Shillelagh without becoming game-breaking. Either simply by upping number of pebbles to 10, or making it exactly like Shillelagh, for example...
"For one minute, you're able to imbue natural ammunition made only of stone and wood with your magic. During this time, any such ammunition you touch becomes magical for one turn. When used to make a ranged weapon attack, the attack adds your own spellcasting ability modifier to the attack roll, instead of using his own usual modifier.
On a hit blablabla."

Restricting only to a turn prevents the simple cheese of amassing a mountain of magic ammunition, and if you use it for you it's strictly the same as Shillelagh. I don't see it as any more or less unbalancing than Shillelagh, but it would open doors to purely ranged spellcasters without hampering their efficiency. And it still would lose interest any ways after lvl 5 unless specific build.

In any case, I'd personnally house rule something like this if a player wanted to play this kind of character.

[GiantOctopodes]

I'm actually not finding this magic stone cantrip.

What and where is it?

[Dimolyth]

Hey, thanks for joining the CHA-lovers's corner! ^^

Sure, it works. Sacred Weapon does not restrict itself to melee weapon (reason why it's so good on any build) so it works.
Reason why Magic Stone is not often brought to light (by me at least) is that it's a big pain in the *** to use. Whereas Shillelagh costs one action for a whole minute, you have to use Magic Stone EVERY THREE STONES. Making it situational at best beynd the very first levels: unless you're a CHA-main ranged build (which would be very clunky) you won't be able to shoot more than one stone at a time (plz correct me if I'm wrong not totally sure of this), and if you're high on CHA you'll certainly have more potent cantrips to use (if only because they power up with character level or provide added benefit).

Could be good though as a support spell for a gunslinger with medium attack stat. But again, 3 stones at a time makes it basically a "one-shot" ability.

Frankly, concept was nice, but I really don't understand why they made such heavy restrictions. It would have been easy to make it as good as Shillelagh without becoming game-breaking. Either simply by upping number of pebbles to 10, or making it exactly like Shillelagh, for example...
"For one minute, you're able to imbue natural ammunition made only of stone and wood with your magic. During this time, any such ammunition you touch becomes magical for one turn. When used to make a ranged weapon attack, the attack adds your own spellcasting ability modifier to the attack roll, instead of using his own usual modifier.
On a hit blablabla."

Restricting only to a turn prevents the simple cheese of amassing a mountain of magic ammunition, and if you use it for you it's strictly the same as Shillelagh. I don't see it as any more or less unbalancing than Shillelagh, but it would open doors to purely ranged spellcasters without hampering their efficiency. And it still would lose interest any ways after lvl 5 unless specific build.

In any case, I'd personnally house rule something like this if a player wanted to play this kind of character.

I have a feeling that WoTC are afraid of adding new strong spell options, and that we`ve got in Elemental Evil UA were made to be slightly OR notably inferior to spells from PHB. Added versality, situational problemes solving and fluff? Yes. Added power? Just no, not before WoTC could propose new options for martials.

So magic stones are stricly inferior to shillelagh (and obviously worse that eldritch blast)

[charcoalninja]

Unfortunately you're wrong, very wrong in fact. It's been explicitly stated that you can use whatever spell slots you have for smites.

Here's where it is in the PHB errata: http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/Errata_PH.pdf

Sweet! Hadn't seen that Errata. That's a great change! Smite on!

[D.U.P.A.]

I have a feeling that WoTC are afraid of adding new strong spell options, and that we`ve got in Elemental Evil UA were made to be slightly OR notably inferior to spells from PHB. Added versality, situational problemes solving and fluff? Yes. Added power? Just no, not before WoTC could propose new options for martials.

So magic stones are stricly inferior to shillelagh (and obviously worse that eldritch blast)

Honestly, I kinda like spells from elemental evil. Although I looked mostly at cantrips and low level spells.

But it is odd that Warlock gets Magic stone. It already has a superior cantrip avalaible, which with almost must-take invocation of agonizing blast, it is in every way better than the first cantrip. However there is an option giving those stones to others I guess. However I would like to scale by producing more stones as you level. Druid my have more use of it, at least on lower levels as its cantrip are rather mediocre.

[Citan]

I have a feeling that WoTC are afraid of adding new strong spell options, and that we`ve got in Elemental Evil UA were made to be slightly OR notably inferior to spells from PHB. Added versality, situational problemes solving and fluff? Yes. Added power? Just no, not before WoTC could propose new options for martials.

So magic stones are stricly inferior to shillelagh (and obviously worse that eldritch blast)
I share your analysis and understand why they want to be careful in moving the game balance with new spells. I just don't feel creating Magic Stone in a similar way to what I proposed could have caused any game-breaking: it's basically transposing Shillelagh to ranged weapons for Druid.

I'm actually not finding this magic stone cantrip.
What and where is it?
It's a spell described in an official DD5 supplement, Elemental Evil, available for free on internet (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/EE_PlayersCompanion.pdf). Enjoy :)

[Flashy]

I'm actually not finding this magic stone cantrip.

What and where is it?

It's in the elemental evil player's companion (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/EE_PlayersCompanion.pdf).

EDIT: Ninja'd

[Dimolyth]

I share your analysis and understand why they want to be careful in moving the game balance with new spells. I just don't feel creating Magic Stone in a similar way to what I proposed could have caused any game-breaking: it's basically transposing Shillelagh to ranged weapons for Druid.

It's a spell described in an official DD5 supplement, Elemental Evil, available for free on internet (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/EE_PlayersCompanion.pdf). Enjoy :)


Ranged Shillelagh would be strongest cantrip in druid list.
They already have best survivability option, one of most versatile spell list (and they know the whole list), inferior martial option, and a lot of unique spells. If you add more strong cantrips, the class could easily outshine some other fullcasters, which have the same focus (Bard could be an example). Druids already have a ranged cantrip option - and I don`t see why another cantrip ought to be better than produce flame.

[Citan]

Ranged Shillelagh would be strongest cantrip in druid list.
They already have best survivability option, one of most versatile spell list (and they know the whole list), inferior martial option, and a lot of unique spells. If you add more strong cantrips, the class could easily outshine some other fullcasters, which have the same focus (Bard could be an example). Druids already have a ranged cantrip option - and I don`t see why another cantrip ought to be better than produce flame.
Again, please explain how it would be overpowered. I don't understand. :)

Putting apart the fact that the Wizard is the only one being excluded from this benefit (Bard > Magic Secrets, Warlock Tome)...

As for Druid, you either have to go in melee or cast a cantrip for basic damage.
If you're a Moon Druid, you'll probably be wild shaped anyways.
If you're a Land Druid, you'll probably want to stay at range.

Then indeed you have the cantrips. Which power up as you lvl, as soon as lvl5. While Magic Stone, as Shillelagh, stays fixed.

So, for Magic Stone to outshine classic dealing damage cantrips, you'd have to build your character around the concept of ranged physical attacks. Otherwise, since Druids have one attack top, it's no more overpowered as with Shillelagh in Melee.

Do you hear people complaining of Druid being OP in melee because Shillelagh reduces it's MAD? I don't think so. Do you hear people complaining about Shillelagh in general? Probably not. Even though Shillelagh typically is at its best with CHA-based multiclass and synergize very well with many more class abilities.

For Druid himself, Magic Stone is only a way to have a good physical alternative to cantrips (like against fire-resistant/immune enemies) and a decent damage for the first levels.

Compared to cantrips, Magic Stone becomes passable lvl5 and beyond, useless lvl11 and beyond, unless you build your concept around ranged attacks, meaning multiclassing...
Since ranged classes require DEX in the first place, it offers a small bonus in stat management for the price of reducing optimization (only stones so only slings).

As for the hypothetical "cheese" that would be "Druid touches ammunition from everyone before they unleash it"...
- It means Druid do only this for his turn. Not the greatest way to use action.
- It means allies have to use stones and slinger. Not the greatest weapon for ranged builds.
- Anyways, allies will pump their attacking stat by themselves, so Magic Stone becomes useless as soon as lvl8.

[Drackolus]

First, you don't need 6 bard, you can do 3 tomelock (ideally Fiend) too. Second, I want to say that you could learn elemental weapon and take 6 levels of draconic sorcerer for elemental affinity and potentially add your cha to damage twice as long as you picked the right element, giving you a total build of 3 tomelock/6 dragon sorc/11 devotion paladin. You could even get quicken spell out of it. Need to cast it first, since it has to target a nonmagical weapon. So quicken elemental weapon, channel divinity for action on your first turn, then shillelagh for bonus and take that action to attack with your 2x cha + prof bonus and 1d8 shillelagh + 1d8 passive smite + 2d4 elemental + 2x cha, + extra smite if needed. You could argue that you can't add elemental affinity to each attack roll, only the first (scorching ray evidently works this way, thanks to recent errata). I'd plead the Rule of Cool, especially if you can explain that mess of a character in a satisfying, cohesive way.