Question about Unnatural Mental Influence

[Kythorian]

So I am fairly new to Exalted, but from reading the core book, most of the unnatural mental influence charms seem pretty much worthless. Given that anyone can spend willpower to automatically successfully resist mental influence and unnatural mental influence is obvious...why would anyone ever not? So charms like Worshipful Lackey Acquisition, for example, might seem like a powerful charm, but anyone can spend a willpower to resist its influence for an entire day. And given that if you don't spend willpower you are a slave for that day, I have trouble seeing anyone deciding not to go ahead and really focus on resisting.

This turns the rather expensive charm into no more than a method of forcing someone to use a willpower every day resisting until the charm runs out. Though really, you would probably have to keep them imprisoned or just outright kill them anyway, because otherwise surely they are going to tell someone you are trying to control their mind, making the entire charm worse than useless. I guess with the exception of if you have already drained all of their willpower, but that seems extremely difficult given that even at best you can only force someone to use two willpower from social combat in a given scene anyway.

And this applies to virtually all of the unnatural mental influence charms. As long as someone can just spend willpower to ignore your charm with 100% success, it seems like its almost never going to actually be worth using. Am I misunderstanding how this works?

[TheCountAlucard]

So I am fairly new to Exalted, but from reading the core book, most of the unnatural mental influence charms seem pretty much worthless.Quite the opposite.


Given that anyone can spend willpower to automatically successfully resist mental influence and unnatural mental influence is obvious...It's only obvious to the character if the character resists it. Additionally, it's only obvious to the player to allow for system transparency.


…why would anyone ever not?Willpower's a pretty limited resource! Not only is it the only thing that lets you shrug off mental influence, it's also a source of fuel for your Charms and spells! If you run out, you're not gonna be able to resist further meddling, and unlike health levels, Exalts don't have an Ox-Body Technique for Willpower.


So charms like Worshipful Lackey Acquisition, for example, might seem like a powerful charm…That's because it is.


…but anyone can spend a willpower to resist its influence for an entire day.If they have that Willpower to spend. Most mortals will be lucky to have Willpower 5, and who's to say their WP pools are full up every time you encounter them? And even if they are, if you grind them down before throwing down WLA, then they can't resist you at all.

Most folks in Creation are Conviction 1-2. If they're lucky they'll regain about one point of Willpower per day. Even the Conviction 5 fellas are gonna get an average of two. A determined Exalt can grind that mortal down to zero pretty much every time.

Also check the errata. An Exalt can now force you to spend as many as five Willpower resisting his natural mental influence.


And this applies to virtually all of the unnatural mental influence charms.One of the other differences between natural and unnatural mental influence is that you can keep applying UMI. Additionally if they're Exalted they gain Limit from resisting you. They then have to decide between resisting you, or flipping out and killing their families.


Am I misunderstanding how this works?Yes.

That said, you don't have to like it. A new edition is on the verge of coming out. See if you like their handling of it better.

[golentan]

In addition, as per Errata extra successes do increase the willpower cost of resisting charms.

As mentioned, you can repeatedly apply it, and against exalts it will apply limit, forcing them to choose between edging closer to insanity or acceding to your demands.

As a general rule, as well, most mortals don't spend willpower often if at all.

Someone with Integrity 1 willpower 4 (like a fairly typical townsfolk) will have an MDV of 2, even if the solar isn't exploiting any intimacies (serve me and your children will never go hungry!). A social solar can throw 23 dice at them without much effort, acquiring a likely 10+ successes, let's say 11 as a typical average. Worshipful Lackey acquisition would now require 1 (base) + 3 (net successes/3) willpower to resist, the farmer must choose between exhausting his mental reserves and entering a black depression for having 0 willpower (at which point he's emotionally pliable to the solar anyway) or assenting to the effect of the UMI, which as a servitude effect is pretty potent.

[Kythorian]

Quite the opposite.

It's only obvious to the character if the character resists it. Additionally, it's only obvious to the player to allow for system transparency.

So what determines if an npc should attempt to resist? Do we just assume that as long as the unnatural mental influence doesn't directly conflict with their motivation, they go along with it without spending willpower?


If they have that Willpower to spend. Most mortals will be lucky to have Willpower 5, and who's to say their WP pools are full up every time you encounter them? And even if they are, if you grind them down before throwing down WLA, then they can't resist you at all.

Most folks in Creation are Conviction 1-2. If they're lucky they'll regain about one point of Willpower per day. Even the Conviction 5 fellas are gonna get an average of two. A determined Exalt can grind that mortal down to zero pretty much every time.

Also check the errata. An Exalt can now force you to spend as many as five Willpower resisting his natural mental influence.

Core says that the average random serf has 4 willpower. Anyone you actually would care about controlling probably has 5+. So yeah, I guess you could drain random villagers of their willpower will a protracted discussion, but you don't actually know exactly how much willpower someone has or how much they have used at any give time. So it still seems incredibly limiting to require this before you ever attempt to use unnatural mental influence charms, even with the increase to 5 willpower resisting natural mental influence.

And there are a lot of times when there isn't really a chance to do this. For example, Authority-radiating stance doesn't really give you a chance to drain someone's willpower. It is something you would generally activate before you ever go to talk to someone. So does this mean that unless you give them a good reason not to believe you are in authority over them, they just accept this without attempting to use willpower?



One of the other differences between natural and unnatural mental influence is that you can keep applying UMI. Additionally if they're Exalted they gain Limit from resisting you. They then have to decide between resisting you, or flipping out and killing their families

I guess in theory, but in practice, if someone resists with willpower once, they are now aware you are trying to control their minds, so they are likely to either run away or attack you. Continued attempts to drain their willpower by more unnatural mental influence charms seems ineffective in either circumstance.


I guess the whole thing comes down to my original question. In a lot of your statements you seem to be implying that most npcs will use willpower to resist unnatural mental influence, but that this isn't an insurmountable issue. Given limited willpower, willpower regen, and ways to drain willpower, it is potentially possible in many cases to force someone to 0 willpower before using an unnatural mental influence charm. I guess this is true, but it is a very large restriction on how these charms can be used. On the other hand, if npcs generally do not automatically use willpower to resist mental influence as long as you are not commanding them to act directly against their motivations, I can see how these might be a lot more useful. Is that the case?

[Kythorian]

In addition, as per Errata extra successes do increase the willpower cost of resisting charms.

As mentioned, you can repeatedly apply it, and against exalts it will apply limit, forcing them to choose between edging closer to insanity or acceding to your demands.

As a general rule, as well, most mortals don't spend willpower often if at all.

Someone with Integrity 1 willpower 4 (like a fairly typical townsfolk) will have an MDV of 2, even if the solar isn't exploiting any intimacies (serve me and your children will never go hungry!). A social solar can throw 23 dice at them without much effort, acquiring a likely 10+ successes, let's say 11 as a typical average. Worshipful Lackey acquisition would now require 1 (base) + 3 (net successes/3) willpower to resist, the farmer must choose between exhausting his mental reserves and entering a black depression for having 0 willpower (at which point he's emotionally pliable to the solar anyway) or assenting to the effect of the UMI, which as a servitude effect is pretty potent.

Hmm...I didn't know that. That does really help, especially with combos. A presence excellency/Irresistible salesman spirit/Worshipful Lackey Acquisition combo could probably get close to 20 successes, which makes the willpower cost 6 or so to resist. Almost no one could do that for two days. I guess that is pretty brutal.

You said that mortals don't generally resist with willpower though. Should you assume that any non-mortals generally will, or do even non-mortals often go along with it as long as what you are telling them to do isn't too extreme?

[SaurOps]

Hmm...I didn't know that. That does really help, especially with combos. A presence excellency/Irresistible salesman spirit/Worshipful Lackey Acquisition combo could probably get close to 20 successes, which makes the willpower cost 6 or so to resist. Almost no one could do that for two days. I guess that is pretty brutal.

You said that mortals don't generally resist with willpower though. Should you assume that any non-mortals generally will, or do even non-mortals often go along with it as long as what you are telling them to do isn't too extreme?

Irresistible Salesman Spirit is Combo-Basic, though, so it can't really give many other Charms a boost.

NPCs should generally go along with mental influence that doesn't violate their Motivation. Some Exalted may also have Intimacies of one sort or another that are protected a la Righteous Lion Defense.

[golentan]

Hmm...I didn't know that. That does really help, especially with combos. A presence excellency/Irresistible salesman spirit/Worshipful Lackey Acquisition combo could probably get close to 20 successes, which makes the willpower cost 6 or so to resist. Almost no one could do that for two days. I guess that is pretty brutal.

You said that mortals don't generally resist with willpower though. Should you assume that any non-mortals generally will, or do even non-mortals often go along with it as long as what you are telling them to do isn't too extreme?

Generally, with a solar, I expect them to pretty much always have Infinite Ability Mastery popped for their specialty ability in any scene where it's applicable, despite the comment about Irresistible Salesman Spirit being fully correct. 6 willpower may not be on the table, but yeah, expect dice out the wazoo.

My general rule is "Is this a heroic mortal, AND if so, do they have a reason to resist?" If no to either, they don't resist with willpower. Similarly, I generally don't have supernatural entities resist if the character is being smart about exploiting their mental weak points. So, if a dragonblood really cares about their lover, and maybe isn't so super orthodox, and the solar has a way of manipulating that emotion without causing hostility they will likely accede and not resist.

I make the distinction because "I have your spouse hostage and will mail you one body part per week until you comply" may get compliance with a demand, but you've earned an enemy for life and they will resist the UMI even if they accede to the command, because they're going along until they see an opportunity to give you a spare opening to your trachea.

Those intimacies and motivations and even virtues on your sheet aren't there just for show. They're a huge part of playing social combat right.