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MisterSaturnine
2007-05-02, 10:10 PM
So, I'm working with a villain that's really a tragic character if I do say so myself (then again, I had some "help" thinking him up)...but I'm having issues deciding alignment.

The story may seem familiar. Especially if you're familiar with a particularly bad musical that sticks in your head like a barbed arrow if you've recently been in it. :smallfrown:

If you want to read the full backstory, here it is. I'll do a nutshell after.

Oh, and beware of typos. This is a lot of text I'm not in the mood to proofread.

Basically, a high-level wizard (say, 40ish?) decided he was fed up with society's corruption and wanted to, basically, see if he could make his own perfect society. So, he went out into a dense forest that few dared to wander into and fewer came out alive of, and using his magics, turned a clearing in it into a lush paradise, which he called Eden. Then, he created his two first people, Adam and Eve. The wizard's specialty, you see, was making golems, and Adam and Eve were intelligent golems made of all the neccessary components to make them function, essentially, like normal human beings (including the ability to reproduce), with the small exception of having the Hebrew "Emet" scribed under their left eye. They grew up in the garden, and as the wizard--who was now referred to simply as Father--intended, fell in love. All their lives, however, Father had told them two things. One, that they were the only people left on earth. And two, that if they ever tried to use magic, or even looked at the language it was written in, they would be corrupted--as he believed magic, like science, was one of the primary corruptors of society, despite his constant use of it. One day, however, Father left the garden to observe some particularly disturbing upsets outside of it, and another wizard who'd been a thorn in his side for years took the opportunity to show Eve one of Father's left-behind spellbooks. Though Eve didn't fully grasp many of the spells, they excited and intrigued her as she imagined what she could do, what she could create with them. Through scrying, however, Father saw all of this, and went to Eve with Adam. Outraged, he told her that because of her folly, he would decreate her, rubbing out the "e" in "emet," and turning "truth" to "death." Adam, however, couldn't bear the thought of losing her, and begged Father to spare her life. Father wouldn't allow it...and so Adam, too, looked into the book. Betrayed and despairing, Father destroyed the garden and left to another plane, never to see his children again. Ouch.

So, Adam and Eve peruse the spell book for useful things for their new life in the harsh wasteland that is this forest. They soon had children of their own, the eldest named Cain, the other Abel, 3 years Cain's junior at 14. All was well-enough, though every day Adam prayed to Father to forgive them and bring them back. Then, Cain found something shocking--the remains of a little camp, probably one that adventurers used hastily to sleep for the night--a dead campfire, animal bones, etc. More astonishingly, Cain found tracks, not of animals, but of other humans. Cain brought his family to the camp and convinced them to go find the other people--proof they weren't alone in the world! Adam wouldn't have it, however--as it turns out, he'd found out years ago, just a bit after Abel was born, but didn't tell his family for fear Father would never return if they interacted with other people--with the civilization Father had warned against. And so, Adam and Cain began to fight, with Cain growing angrier and angrier until he lashed out at Abel with a stone when Abel tried to stop it. His last words to Adam as he stood by the bleeding body of Abel before he ran and followed those tracks were, "That should've been you." Eve never recovered, refused to eat, and soon died of grief.

Adam was left with nothing and no one--all he had loved in the world had left him, and it was all his fault. Adam invested himself in magic, and now seeks to end civilization itself, in hopes that if he does, Father will forgive him, and return to recreate the world.

Nutshell: High-level Wizard known as Father fed up with civilization makes a little utopia in a horrible forest, which he calls Eden. Makes two golems identical to people named Adam and Eve. Tells them they're the only people left, and to never touch magic. Eve touches magic. Adam must choose between Eve and Father. Chooses Eve. Father destroys Eden and leaves the plane. Adam and Eve live in the wilderness and have kids named Cain and Abel. Cain finds evidence of other people Adam found earlier but didn't tell about for fear Father would never return. Adam and Cain fight. Abel dies. Eve dies of grief. From the spoiler--

Adam was left with nothing and no one--all he had loved in the world had left him, and it was all his fault. Adam invested himself in magic, and now seeks to end civilization itself, in hopes that if he does, Father will forgive him, and return to recreate the world.

Adam will be a Wizard 6/Mountebank 4/Nightmare Spinner 4 to accomodate his plot, though I've modified Mountebank to suit my purposes.

The plan is to use alter-egos + nightmares and suggestion and stuff to manipulate the world into a crippling world war that will eventually result in the destruction of civilization. He does, however, do his best to avoid hurting children.

And now for the dilemma: his alignment.

In intention, he is Lawful Good--working with the system in order to destroy it from within, and means only good for the world. His means, though, are certainly not good--devious manipulation that will cause murder in the millions, destroying smaller societies personally, and eventually organizing raids to ransack treasuries and armories, only to kill the raiding parties and destroy the weapons of armor.

What do you think, guys? Lawful Good? Chaotic Good? Lawful Neutral? The last I'm not so comfortable with, but if it works...

MisterSaturnine
2007-05-02, 10:32 PM
To quote the fabled Book of the Dead:

Bump.

EvilElitest
2007-05-02, 10:47 PM
nice fluff
from,
EE

MisterSaturnine
2007-05-02, 11:06 PM
Thank you both for the compliment and the bump. :smalltongue:

But any help with alignment? I'm beginning to think Chaotic Good might make more sense, but I'd still love some feedback, because there's still the matter of all the death and deceit.

Jasdoif
2007-05-02, 11:06 PM
To quote the fabled Book of the Dead:

Bump....a bump after only 22 minutes? :smallconfused:


Anyway, I would have to say, given what little you've said here, Chaotic Evil. His goal is the destruction of order on the highest scale. Not to replace civilization with a new order, to destroy it. That's Chaotic. And causing the murder of millions, for no reason other then a chance to achieve his own desires (attaining the forgiveness of "Father") is definitely evil.

MisterSaturnine
2007-05-02, 11:13 PM
Well, I remember getting a really quick response once. So, I thought, eh, screw it.

Plus, let's remember. MisterSaturnine isn't MisterSmart. Quite the opposite, in fact.

And I'll definitely keep that in mind. It would be interesting to have a character think he's an exemplary figure of good, when the paper (and his actions) say the opposite. But keep in mind he's acting not only on his own desires, but on the belief that Father's system is the best, and any system rebuilt by Father would be so perfect it'd be worth the chance.

Still, though. Half of that's probably purely manufactured so he doesn't think himself selfish and, moreso, evil. Isn't self-deceit a beautiful thing?

OK. I think he'll either be Chaotic Good or Chaotic Evil. Because both sound...possible. With good, it's the whole "the end justifies the means" argument. And with evil...well, it's pretty damn straight-forward. He'd be killing millions and causing widespread anarchy because there's a slight possibility he practically pulled out of his ass that there will be a satisfactory end.

Jasdoif
2007-05-02, 11:27 PM
With good, it's the whole "the end justifies the means" argument.Here's the problem with that. It might be best for the world, but it would still death destruction for most everyone who's already alive. Good is about respecting and preserving life, not wiping out everything.

There are often some difficult viewpoints to consider when talking alignment, but this one is pretty straightforward. All these millions he's going to kill have done nothing wrong. Whether his final goal succeeds or not, they're still dead in the end of his plan. For no reason other then he wants his Father to come back and feels the lives of innocent millions are meaningless in light of his plan. That's classic Evil.

MisterSaturnine
2007-05-02, 11:31 PM
An excellent point. Chaotic Evil it is then. Though he'd be convinced of treachery if, say, someone's Smite Evil were to prove effective against him.

Many thank you's for your help, Jasdoif!

Jasdoif
2007-05-02, 11:42 PM
If you still want to start with the plan but have him be Chaotic Good, I do have an idea.


He starts the plan into motion, but later realizes his plan is a bad one. Maybe something makes him realize it's not right. Maybe his Father gives him a vision once he realizes what's going on (or maybe it's just a dream). Heck, maybe the PCs show him why what he's doing is wrong.

But by then plans are already running. Countries are all prepared to fight each other for supremacy, and with all the escalation of violence no one's afraid to make the first move, and conflict strikes. Now, our Adam guy wants/needs to stop the end of civilization as all know it, but he can do so much on his own, he needs help.

Enter the PCs....

Rock Roller
2007-05-03, 10:23 AM
I generally break alignment into methods and motives. I generally define the Ethical Axis (Law - N - Chaos) as the one that deals primarily with methods. He's lying (chaotic) to manipulate nations into making their own decision (chaotic) rather than trying to become the leader of each of these civilizations under different guises and then ordering his citizens to go forth an conquer (which would be lawful). His methods seem primarily to be chaotic. Get people to make their own decisions about something by out and out lying to them.

His motives are the destruction of life, although he has a soft spot for children, in order to seek the end goal of his god figure. He's not trying to kill everyone so that his god figure will pull them into a paradise. He willfully hurting/slaughtering the entire population of at least 2 countries, and ideally, in his mind, the entire world, for a purely self-serving end. At the best, he's willing to pursue his selfish goal without regard for the fact that it will mean the death of thousands of people. I don't think you can spin this as much other than evil.

Remember, most evil people don't think that they're evil. D&D makes this a bit difficult since, hey, detect evil, but you could get around this by saying that "Father" didn't want his creations to worry about morality (perhaps he disliked the way that people were prejudged based on alignment detection), and as a result, the motivating sigil on Adam is imbued with mind-shielding or nondetection effects.

Telonius
2007-05-03, 02:20 PM
So, "Adam" is basically Ra's al Ghul? I'd put him as Neutral Evil, though I can see how you'd say Chaotic Evil (or even Lawful Evil) as well. Alignment gets kind of funky when you start adding a heavy dose of nihilism into a character.

Anyway, I usually look at the Law/Chaos axis as a matter of temperament as well as actual methods. Is he inclined to submit to lawful authority, rebel against it, or just ignore it? Does he tend to make careful plans, act randomly, or somewhere in between? He clearly has some kind of a personal code and an agenda. But at the same time, he rebelled against his own lawful authority ("Father"). He's not really clearly one or the other, so I'd say Neutral.

puppyavenger
2007-05-03, 06:12 PM
Actually I would say LN beccause realy look at the great war against chaos. Over the war both sides destroyed entire worlds as side effects of there battles and still remained neutrel and this is the same thing on a ssmaller scale. that is purging a civilization because it is "corupt" or "evil".


also mnd if I base a druid of a modified version of this

EvilElitest
2007-05-03, 07:22 PM
Actually I would say LN beccause realy look at the great war against chaos. Over the war both sides destroyed entire worlds as side effects of there battles and still remained neutrel and this is the same thing on a ssmaller scale. that is purging a civilization because it is "corupt" or "evil".


also mnd if I base a druid of a modified version of this

Even so, killing innocents is evil, and so out goes the LN aligment
from,
EE

puppyavenger
2007-05-03, 07:38 PM
so every soldier who takes part in a siege almost all n examplers and most adventerers go to the lower planes wen they die or fall?

EvilElitest
2007-05-03, 08:30 PM
so every soldier who takes part in a siege almost all n examplers and most adventerers go to the lower planes wen they die or fall?

Be more clear
from,
EE

puppyavenger
2007-05-04, 06:35 AM
Let me put it this way, can you name any sucessfl siege in the history of humanity where the besigners did not kill any inocents when they syormed the city? from a civilan accidentily being shot in a firefight in Iraq to the razing of Thebes by Alexander the great. In fact that would make pretty much eceryone who has led or fought in a inhabited area evil. Gearge Washingto had inocent farmers driven out of the U.S because they were loyal to the British, was he evil?

The TN CN and LN examplers would all kill inoxcents without a thought if it advanded there agenda, the rilermi(major sp) would damm worlds if that was what was needed to restore the balencg, Dulkeem the slaadi anarcist destroys world spaning goverments which can free the from opression or leave them with nothing to starve and fight, the formains will kll anyone who trys to stop them, the vati inevitables will kill anyone who breaks there law or those who shelter them, even if it is becase they are a beloved brother seeking escape from a contract with the devil and is genunly repentant

as for adventeres do you realy believe that every singal orc, goblin or kobold deserves to die?


is that cleaar enough:smallsmile:

puppyavenger
2007-05-04, 01:54 PM
Let me put it this way, can you name any sucessfl siege in the history of humanity where the besigners did not kill any inocents when they syormed the city? from a civilan accidentily being shot in a firefight in Iraq to the razing of Thebes by Alexander the great. In fact that would make pretty much eceryone who has led or fought in a inhabited area evil. Gearge Washingto had inocent farmers driven out of the U.S because they were loyal to the British, was he evil?

The TN CN and LN examplers would all kill inoxcents without a thought if it advanded there agenda, the rilermi(major sp) would damm worlds if that was what was needed to restore the balencg, Dulkeem the slaadi anarcist destroys world spaning goverments which can free the from opression or leave them with nothing to starve and fight, the formains will kll anyone who trys to stop them, the vati inevitables will kill anyone who breaks there law or those who shelter them, even if it is becase they are a beloved brother seeking escape from a contract with the devil and is genunly repentant

as for adventeres do you realy believe that every singal orc, goblin or kobold deserves to die?


is that cleaar enough:smallsmile:

Wolf_Shade
2007-05-04, 02:37 PM
He's chaotic evil.
His entire motivation is selfish. He's seeking to accomplish it through means that cause overly large amounts of grief and pain to others with little to no remorse. And that's to everyone and everything.

He's adopted magic, the huge no-no of "father". That's not workign within the law. That's saying screw the law, maybe we can have some when we're done here. He has no regards for what societaly (law) is considered proper, as he wants to completely destroy society.

The fact that doesn't desire to harm children is simply a character quirk, not an alignment modifier. He'll eventually realize that to utterly destroy society, even children must be sacrificed.

EvilElitest
2007-05-04, 04:19 PM
1. Real life does not have aligments.
2. Double post



Let me put it this way, can you name any sucessfl siege in the history of humanity where the besigners did not kill any inocents when they syormed the city?


Nope, but i never claimed they were good.


from a civilan accidentily being shot in a firefight in Iraq to the razing of Thebes by Alexander the great.
1. An accidental shot is not evil
2. The killing iraq citizien (not insurgents mind you, citiziens) is evil
3. I would not considered Alexander the Great good by any means


In fact that would make pretty much eceryone who has led or fought in a inhabited area evil. Gearge Washingto had inocent farmers driven out of the U.S because they were loyal to the British, was he evil?
Mr. Washinton was LN if i ever saw it. Reread the bill of rights, its pretty LN


The TN CN and LN examplers would all kill inoxcents without a thought if it advanded there agenda, the rilermi(major sp) would damm worlds if that was what was needed to restore the balencg,
No, those are NE and CE. TN will only kill innocents to protect themselves directlly, LN will do it to protect their city (only on a limited scale) and CN will do it to protect themselves


Dulkeem the slaadi anarcist destroys world spaning goverments which can free the from opression or leave them with nothing to starve and fight, the formains will kll anyone who trys to stop them, the vati inevitables will kill anyone who breaks there law or those who shelter them, even if it is becase they are a beloved brother seeking escape from a contract with the devil and is genunly repentant
sensence structers are your friend, not your foe


as for adventeres do you realy believe that every singal orc, goblin or kobold deserves to die?
Never claimed that


is that cleaar enough:smallsmile:

Nope, your haven't made you points clear enough. I can wipe out my Book of Exalted Deeds if you want me to back up mine
from,
EE

Inyssius Tor
2007-05-04, 06:26 PM
... I invoke Godwin's Law under my own power and I bind it to my will!

Actually I would say LN beccause realy look at the great war against chaos. Over the war both sides destroyed entire worlds as side effects of there battles and still remained neutrel and this is the same thing on a ssmaller scale. that is purging a civilization because it is "corupt" or "evil".So... you say that destroying a culture via mass genocide is a neutral act.
Hitler is Neutral.

As for the Chaotic-Lawful axis: he may be devoted to the destruction of reality, but he goes about it in a calculating manner. If he simply buffed himself and charged at large concentrations of life, that would be Chaotic. He makes plans. Sometimes those plans will involve large amounts of chaos, but the chaos is part of the plan.
On the other hand, he has no personal code. He may have a goal, but that isn't a code; by that measure, everything from "get more money" to "sleep with every noblewoman in the Free Cities" would be capital-L Lawful. Your Adam is willing to do anything and everything that works toward his goal, and that makes him Neutral Evil.

Neutral Evil, "Malefactor"

A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.

Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such villains are devoted to evil deities or secret societies.

Neutral evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents pure evil without honor and without variation.

MisterSaturnine
2007-05-05, 02:08 AM
Wow. A lot of discussion. Wasn't expecting that. Then again, it is about alignment...

Puppyavenger, feel free to use it.

Oh, and...


So, "Adam" is basically Ra's al Ghul?

...Maaaan. Well, not entirely. In terms of goal? I guess so. Damn! But in terms of mindset? Much different...oh, and to Jasdoif. That's actually a brilliant idea for the adventure. Sets plan in motion...realizes he'd better not for one reason or another...PCs step in. Hee hee hee.

Aaand my choice got complex again.

There's Chaotic Evil. Which makes sense for already stated reasons.
There's Neutral Evil. Which also makes a lot of sense, 'cause...he is willing to work with a legal system, and essentially what Tor said. Then there's Chaotic Good if I want to go down that route. Which I think I'll avoid for now. I want to bring him back later so he can redeem himself. Wouldn't work if he was already redeemed. But I dunno. Like everything...it's bound to change.

Matthew
2007-05-25, 11:02 AM
Interesting idea, but straying into the realms of prohibited topics, I think. On the basis of what is here, I would suggest he starts as Neutral Good and gradually becomes neutral and then Neutral Evil. He could potentially end up Chaotic Evil or Lawful Evil, but almost definitely Evil.