The cost of Raise Dead

[Scalenex]

Raise Dead takes expensive gems. Just having the gp may not be enough. There will likely be lots of people who are candidates for Raise Dead and a fair number of nobles. What if the gem dealers raised their prices?

[ladysekhmetka]

Heh, if the government is around still in Sapphire City, they can fine any gougers of diamonds.

But since the spell only says "5,000 GP worth of diamonds" and not "5000 karats" then in theory, you'll only be spending 5000 gp regardless of cost

[Demented]

The funny thing is, the requirement is for 5000gp worth in diamonds.
I've always wondered what, exactly, prevents someone from finding the smallest diamond around and buying it for 5000gp. Voila!

Edit:
I see the lady is ahead of me.

[Gaelbert]

Azure City already has the diamond that they had meant to use for Shojo, and, seeing as Roy is Hinjo's bodyguard, Roy should get the diamond.

[Kreistor]

I've always wondered what, exactly, prevents someone from finding the smallest diamond around and buying it for 5000gp. Voila!

I dunno... the DM maybe?

[Ariko]

Azure City already has the diamond that they had meant to use for Shojo, and, seeing as Roy is Hinjo's bodyguard, Roy should get the diamond.
Its been mentioned alot before, but: The diamonds were prepared for the wizard, not Shojo (ok..that was just a nitpick :smallbiggrin:), and were presumably consumed when the spell was cast, regardless of it failing.

[ladysekhmetka]

The funny thing is, the requirement is for 5000gp worth in diamonds.
I've always wondered what, exactly, prevents someone from finding the smallest diamond around and buying it for 5000gp. Voila!

Edit:
I see the lady is ahead of me.

Heh, it happens some times...

Just think, it works the same way with Res and True Res

[brian c]

The spell description for Raise Dead only actually specifies the cost of the diamond(s) required; if you spend 5000gp on them, it's enough by RAW no matter how much diamond that actually is. If you get a big diamond for 5000 gp that's fine, and if they raise their prices and you can only buy a little bit of diamond dust for 5000gp that works just as well.

edit: well I took too long to type this and got a little big ninja'd. Another note is that in city ruled by (LG) Paladins, Hinjo would surely have power to set his own prices for any diamonds or other supplies he needed, or basically confiscate them and say "here, I'll give you XX gold for that. Thanks for helping the greater good, Mr. Merchant"

[Demented]

So, combining True Res with a DM who really doesn't want you to get a diamond and we get....


Gemsmith: "I'm sorry sir, I believe I misheard you... you want to buy this diamond fleck for... 5,000gp?"

Barbarian: "No, 25,000gp."

Gemsmith: "Are you certain? Sir, there is nothing particularly valuable about it."

Barbarian: "Yes, I'm certain."

Gemsmith: "Wouldn't you prefer I sell it to you for 5 gp? It can't be worth more than–"

Barbarian: "No, I want to buy it for 25,000gp."

Gemsmith: "This must be some sort of joke. You can't possibly..."

Barbarian: "Just. Sell. Me. The. Bleeping. Diamond."

Gemsmith: "Absolutely not! I refuse! This is a trick! A sham! I don't know what you're trying to do, but–"

Barbarian: "See this greatsword? This greatsword thirsts for blood. Your blood. Now either you give me the diamond or–"

Gemsmith: "No, no, that's okay! Here, take the fleck! Totally free!"

Barbarian: "No! I need to buy it for 25,000gp!"

Gemsmith: "But I'm giving it to you, totally free..."

Barbarian: "BIG! SWORD! TAKE THE GOLD!"

Gemsmith: "Here! Take the fleck and leave me alone! Please!"

Barbarian: "JUST TAKE THE–"

Gemsmith: "No, please! Go away!"

Barbarian: "AAARGGHH!!" *chop*

Gemsmith: "Urk!

"thud."

Rogue: "... So. Next vendor?"

Barbarian: "I guess."

[chibibar]

I always wonder about that. Gem prices are not constant (if you play with some virtual economic type) I mean you can price a gem in one country and sell for higher/lower in another. personally as a DM I usually go with Karat like 1k = 100gp (usually) as a base and work from there.

[Kreistor]

The spell description for Raise Dead only actually specifies the cost of the diamond(s) required; if you spend 5000gp on them, it's enough by RAW no matter how much diamond that actually is.

Do you actually have a quote to prove this, or are the rules merely silent and you're choosing the interpretation that is most convenient to you?

[Zakama]

Ha Ha, nice one Demented. Is there a table of how much things like that cost? Then you could only get the amount of diamond that it says in that table. If not, it would be better if it just said a mass of diamond, you can't mess with grams or ounces or whatever. And couldn't you just get a wizard with Eschew Materials?

[Timberboar]

Do you actually have a quote to prove this, or are the rules merely silent and you're choosing the interpretation that is most convenient to you?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm

[BardicLasher]

In DnD, precious gems are considered trade goods and thus have set, non-fluctuating values.

[ladysekhmetka]

Ha Ha, nice one Demented. Is there a table of how much things like that cost? Then you could only get the amount of diamond that it says in that table. If not, it would be better if it just said a mass of diamond, you can't mess with grams or ounces or whatever. And couldn't you just get a wizard with Eschew Materials?

Eschew Materials works only on components that cost 1 gp or less, like bat guano

[Demented]

If you look up the treasure charts, you can roll for the kinds of gems you'll find on a kill. The most expensive gem you will ever find will be 8,000gp (the price is determined first, then the DM decides what gem it is).

Most importantly, the type of gems you get are determined entirely by the DM. By his ruling, you might never receive a diamond, even though you may encounter an 8,000gp emerald.

Not that you couldn't buy some from a vendor.

[Zakama]

Eschew Materials works only on components that cost 1 gp or less, like bat guano

Ahh, I looked at the feat and yes, you're right.

[Kreistor]

TimberBoar, I was asking where he got the rules pertaining to the cost of components not being affected by market value (ie. in a place where diamonds are rare, you can use a lower quality diamond since it costs more, or you can intentionally overpay for a diamond in order to make it worth 5KGP).

[brian c]

TimberBoar, I was asking where he got the rules pertaining to the cost of components not being affected by market value (ie. in a place where diamonds are rare, you can use a lower quality diamond since it costs more, or you can intentionally overpay for a diamond in order to make it worth 5KGP).

Well, if you look back, I didn't advocate overspending on a tiny gem, that was Demented who said that. Technically though, once again, it says "Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp", and the concept of how much something is "worth" can be pretty variable. It's all up to the DM, I would imagine most DMs will just say "okay, you want to cast Raise Dead, you go out looking for diamonds, you find some, pay for 5000gp worth and cast the spell, diamonds are gone." It isn't necessary to mention how big the diamond(s) is(are) or how many or anything else. You spend the money, you cast the spell. The only reason that you can't just use the gold itself as the component is to make you have to go to a city (or a diamond mine I suppose) in order to cast the spell.

[Da Luniz]

this attack, if repulsed. will probly get Hinjo to want Roy rezed. the OOTS rearmed and as well supplies as possable and at the other gate asap
so if its just a matter of the mats. the order has a blank check if Azure City survives

We won the battle. but if the other gate falls they still lose the war

[EricDerKonig]

In DnD, precious gems are considered trade goods and thus have set, non-fluctuating values.

An arbitrary, universal price ceiling on gemstones? And no black market? How odd.

Personally, I think it'd make more (realistic) sense to base the component effectiveness on mass or purity, or both. I imagine that might be a bit of a hassle for a game, though.

[Kreistor]

It's all up to the DM, I would imagine most DMs will just say "okay, you want to cast Raise Dead, you go out looking for diamonds, you find some, pay for 5000gp worth and cast the spell, diamonds are gone."

That's what I was looking for. It is all up to the DM. Where there is a lack of rules, the DM gets to choose (before and after appropriate whining and complaining from players, of course).

[brian c]

An arbitrary, universal price ceiling on gemstones? And no black market? How odd.

Personally, I think it'd make more (realistic) sense to base the component effectiveness on mass or purity, or both. I imagine that might be a bit of a hassle for a game, though.

Heh... D&D, realism? Not really.


That's what I was looking for. It is all up to the DM. Where there is a lack of rules, the DM gets to choose (before and after appropriate whining and complaining from players, of course).

You forgot during :smallwink:

[Zienth]

If I were DM'ing, I'd rule that you need an amount of diamonds that would be worth 5000gp at normal prices. But in exceptional economic circumstances, you might have to pay more than 5000gp to get 5000gp worth of diamonds. But I'd also be careful not to play the "exceptional economic circumstances" card very often, or the players would start thinking I was screwing them over.

Zienth

[EricDerKonig]

Heh... D&D, realism? Not really.



I've just been busy studying for an economics exam, so as soon as that came up I started applying real-world economics to the DnD world.
Yes, I'm a nerd. :smallwink:

[Aurumvorax]

Personally, I think it'd make more (realistic) sense to base the component effectiveness on mass or purity, or both. I imagine that might be a bit of a hassle for a game, though. I think the rules suggest using cost because it is much easier, you know... I mean, Not everyone has 10 ranks in Profession: Gemcutter to be able to determine the mass and the purity and the like. Appraise skill, on the other hand, is much more common. :smallwink:
And the exact price is also used to make the price of the spell fixed (or one would wonder, why a major temple doesn't buy them diamonds wholesale to reduce the cost ). Just like with potions

(yes, I'm a Waukeenard, what of it??? :smallbiggrin: )

[Jasdoif]

An arbitrary, universal price ceiling on gemstones? And no black market? How odd.Well, here's the thing. A mid-level wizard can literally teleport to a city where the price of a particular item is lower in a matter seconds (less then 6), buy whatever they're looking for, teleport back, and resell it anywhere between the local price and what they paid for it. And that's pure profit. It's only slightly more troublesome (in terms of spell slots) to do this across planes. Prices will homogenize quickly across the multiverse as a result, so pricing criteria is extremely stable across every sizable city. That's why you can rely on the gp price of diamonds as a standard. (It also spares the players the trouble of determining a purity/price ratio everywhere they go.)

Local conditions can affect the price drastically, but by and large the multiverse-wide scale is the order of the day.

[taraxia]

The spell description for Raise Dead only actually specifies the cost of the diamond(s) required; if you spend 5000gp on them, it's enough by RAW no matter how much diamond that actually is. If you get a big diamond for 5000 gp that's fine, and if they raise their prices and you can only buy a little bit of diamond dust for 5000gp that works just as well.

That's because the literal RAW is stupid. WotC has pointed out over and over again that the whole thing with items having a fixed price is for the convenience of ordinary D&D adventurers. The spell component depends on an objective number and quality of diamonds -- it's just that everything in D&D is given a fixed gp cost for convenience. (A ring of sustenance costs 2,500 gp and will *always* cost 2,500 gp for the sake of, say, crafting it or wishing for one or whatever.)

[bluish_wolf]

That's because the literal RAW is stupid. WotC has pointed out over and over again that the whole thing with items having a fixed price is for the convenience of ordinary D&D adventurers. The spell component depends on an objective number and quality of diamonds -- it's just that everything in D&D is given a fixed gp cost for convenience. (A ring of sustenance costs 2,500 gp and will *always* cost 2,500 gp for the sake of, say, crafting it or wishing for one or whatever.)

DMs can really screw over players, though.

"OK, I cast identify with my pearl worth 100 gold."

"Actually, that pearl's only worth 80 gold, sorry."

*chokes DM*

[taraxia]

Well, if you look back, I didn't advocate overspending on a tiny gem, that was Demented who said that. Technically though, once again, it says "Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp", and the concept of how much something is "worth" can be pretty variable.

Not in D&D. If you're going to play the "that's what the rules say" card, you have to realize that the rules also say that the market price of iron, gold itself (gp never change their own value through inflation), precious gems, magic items, ten-foot-poles, and so on are all static and set. The fact that you personally can give a ring of sustenance to someone for free does not change the fact that the objective price of a ring of sustenance is 2,500 gp -- it does not lower the "price" of the ring of sustenance to 0 gp when it comes time to spend XP on crafting it or whatever.

Personally, this is why I like d20 Modern's abstract Wealth DC checks.

[taraxia]

DMs can really screw over players, though.

"OK, I cast identify with my pearl worth 100 gold."

"Actually, that pearl's only worth 80 gold, sorry."

*chokes DM*

Well, that's *why* the rule exists for *your* convenience. The rule guarantees that no matter where you go to buy your pearls, you *always* pay 100 gp for a "100-gp pearl". The rules literally make it impossible for any vendor anywhere to cheat you when buying DMG-standard items, and similarly *guarantee* that you get a 50% sale price for the items you find no matter where you sell them.

(Yeah, that's hella unrealistic, and both published adventures and DMs such as myself have been known to alter these rules to mimic exceptional economic conditions, like selling to or buying from a shady swindler, or taking advantage of an economic emergency, or whatever. Still, you know a 100-gp pearl is a 100-gp pearl, if nothing else because you have the Appraise skill and are *supposed* to use it on loot to find these things out.)

[CardinalFang]

To be fair, "worth 5000gp" and "costing your party 5000gp" aren't exactly the same thing. If you've spent the gold, then I guess it's only fair that you get to cast the spell, but if you give some woman 5000gp for her 1/3 carat engagement ring because you didn't feel like going to a big city, that seems kind of cheap.

[Kreistor]

If you're going to play the "that's what the rules say" card, you have to realize that the rules also say that the market price of iron, gold itself (gp never change their own value through inflation), precious gems, magic items, ten-foot-poles, and so on are all static and set.

Really? As I asked before, quote that rule, please. It's not RAW unless it actually is written. If there's nothing written, then the rules are silent and its up to the DM.

Then what is the Appraise skill for, exactly?


SELLING LOOT
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price.
Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself.


"In general" is not "always". Why is it only general, and not always? No explanation given. That allows the Dm to invent his own reasons, like Supply and Demand, allowing not only the sell price, but the buy price to fluctuate.

The prices in the PHB are the typical prices, not the only prices. Prices can increase or decrease in response to local supply and demand, and blowing an Appraise roll can definitely get you a component that is worth much less than the PC's thought.

[Kreistor]

That's what I was looking for. It is all up to the DM. Where there is a lack of rules, the DM gets to choose (before and after appropriate whining and complaining from players, of course).

You forgot during

No, I didn't. You always need to consider carefully what your players say. Retaining your opinion in spite of the players' arguments is simply prejudice, and that makes the person a Bad DM. Open your mind, carefully consider the arguments, then accept or reject the players' positions.

[Jayabalard]

The spell description for Raise Dead only actually specifies the cost of the diamond(s) required; if you spend 5000gp on them, it's enough by RAW no matter how much diamond that actually is.

actually, the wording is worth, not cost:
Material Component

Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp.

Worth is not the same thing as cost. if you spend 100,000gp on a diamond that is worth 5gp, it's still only worth 5gp... even though it cost you much more.


No, I didn't. You always need to consider carefully what your players say. Retaining your opinion in spite of the players' arguments is simply prejudice, and that makes the person a Bad DM. Open your mind, carefully consider the arguments, then accept or reject the players' positions.If someone wants to whine and complain about a game, they can find a different GM... there's no need to keep any sort of open mind in that case

[ZombieWomble]

"In general" is not "always". Why is it only general, and not always? No explanation given.

Did you read the entirety of the rule you quoted? It seems you focused on this part:


SELLING LOOT
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price.Then took it as proof of your point, and ignored the rest. However, if you read the second part:


Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself.It explicitly explains why it is only a rule "in general" (because there is a singular exception) notes exactly what this exception is (again, using the singlular form, not "an exception"), and even provides an explicit rule for how to deal with this single exception.

As written, this is the only exception to the rule. It may be a somewhat silly and narrow-minded rule from the point of view of realism and whatnot, but that was not what they are aiming for in writing these rules.

[Twilight Jack]

Who does G-d kill when you bring discussions of real world economics into a fantasy role-playing discussion?

The spell lists gp value of the diamonds because that's the way the game is constructed for easy accounting (as opposed to trying to give players a crash course on gemstone valuation). Who cares about economics when you're just trying to get your friend's character back on his feet so that you can tackle the next dungeon?

That said, it does bear mentioning that the economy within a "generic" D&D campaign (read: the simplified Greyhawk of the core books) is an abstraction based upon assumed scarcity. The default assumption is that precious metals, gemstones, art objects, magical items, etc. are of a given and roughly fixed scarcity--and therefore value--vis-a-vis a given and roughly fixed gold standard. From this baseline assumption, we may extrapolate that 5,000 gp worth of diamonds has a fixed weight based upon purity. Should a group of economics majors sit down to play D&D, they are welcome to experiment with flooding the market with the spoils of their adventures, reducing scarcity and thereby relative value of various goods. GMs who wish to inject a sense of verisimilitude may define exchange rates for the coins of the various nations and states which mint their own coins, even causing such values to rise or fall depending upon the fortunes of the various nations' endeavors. Given sufficient character level and an extended campaign, the PCs may even be able to take a direct hand in such changes, whether through happenstance or design. The actual prices for raising the dead will fluctuate appropriately, and the total value of the gaming group's nerd factor will increase exponentially. Have fun!

I have actually done this.

[jindra34]

Who does G-d kill when you bring discussions of real world economics into a fantasy role-playing discussion?

The tanookie

[Twilight Jack]

The kitsune

What about biology?

[jindra34]

What about biology?

The kitsune

[Twilight Jack]

The tanookie

Wait, shouldn't that be the other way around? The tanookie are the ones who can't stop grabbing shiny things.

[jindra34]

Wait, shouldn't that be the other way around? The tanookie are the ones who can't stop grabbing shiny things.

fine switch 'em. I was just making a joke.
switched

[Twilight Jack]

As was I, Jindra. And I was still laughing until you got inexplicably defensive.

I wasn't correcting you, just bantering.

EDIT: In any event, we've strayed from the topic of the cost of diamonds in Azure City. G-d can kill neko and kitsune and tanookie without our assistance in sorting them out.

[Jade_Tarem]

The spending-more-on-a-diamond trick is really only used by players when the DM is being a butt about finding diamonds in the first place. When the DM arbitrarily rules (after the PC death has occured) that the major metropolis which has every single other item in the game for sale is undergoing the great diamond shortage of 1056, that's when the players try to pull stuff like that.

Also, disagreeing with your players does not automatically make you a bad DM. If I agreed with everything the players wanted to do none of my games would go anywhere.

[Kreistor]

It explicitly explains why it is only a rule "in general" (because there is a singular exception) notes exactly what this exception is (again, using the singlular form, not "an exception"), and even provides an explicit rule for how to deal with this single exception.

As written, this is the only exception to the rule. It may be a somewhat silly and narrow-minded rule from the point of view of realism and whatnot, but that was not what they are aiming for in writing these rules.

That still doesn't say anything about trade goods fluctuating in price. Where does it say, "A trade good is always worth the value in the table above." It doesn't. Trade goods can fluctuate in value in response to market demands just like everything else.

[Milandros]

The D&D rules are written in colloquial, casual english, not logic-structured metalanguage nor legalese. They're meant to be interpreted with common sense.

I've seen far too many posts that basically read "no, forget common sense or any form of coherent reality, the Rules As Written Must Be Followed To The Letter Complete With Spelling Mistakes And Punctuation Errors." Which is why there are still some people who use the "% of monsters who are liars" instead of "% of monsters in their lair" back from the old days.

Don't try to apply real-world economics to the D&D equipment lists, magic item costs or anything similar. It'll go horribly wrong. They're meant to make the game D&D instead of "Merchants and Accountants". Buy, sell, get back to the scenario.

For example, look at the crafting rules. It's almost impossible for a master artisan to make a living. The amount of items that can be produced over time is far too low in most cases.

Or a crowbar - it's 5 lbs of iron, simply shaped, a bar with a curve at each end. It costs 2GP. An iron pot - 10 lbs of iron - is much more complex as well as having twice as much material, and costs 5SP. If you hammered up a pot you could make two crowbars worth 4GP, an 800% markup. Even if you had to sell them at 50% of book value, it's a 400% markup. I don't have the reference in front of me, but if I remember correctly, it may be cheaper to buy 10 lbs of iron pot than 10 lbs of iron.

And for another ridiculous effect of RAW, there's an ability, basically a heroic recovery, from the book of 9 swords, that allows a Pc to throw off any "condition" (meaning stat damaged from poison, drain, etc). I've seen people argue that "dead" is a condition, technically, so the round after a PC dies he can use this 2nd-level ability to bring himself back to life.

Of course, he doesn't have to do that. I can't find anywhere in the RAW that defines being dead as having any penalties to a PC. Once you hit -10 hit points, you're dead. OK. But nowhere does it state that a dead PC may not take his full usual actions on his next turn. He can move, attack, etc as normal. He just has to note that the PC is now "dead".

Which is why the rules need to be read intelligently rather than assuming that the DM is dumber than the avarage PC and will follow what is written blindly without any common sense interpretation at all.

[Kreistor]

Don't try to apply real-world economics to the D&D equipment lists, magic item costs or anything similar. It'll go horribly wrong. They're meant to make the game D&D instead of "Merchants and Accountants". Buy, sell, get back to the scenario.

That depends on who you are and what training you have. If you have taken economics, you're not going to have any problem at all, since you should be able to see all the issues coming and prepare for them. If you don't know how economics work, yeah, avoid it since you can't get it right.

But that's true of any system. No system tries to implement every aspect of a world: the books would fill a library. You don't include an economics text in a RPG book. But if you already know economics, you didn't need a bunch of artists trying to tell you how economics work in the first place: they know how to write well, not the economics of a monopoly vs. competitive markets.

Include in your game what you know, but if you didn't actually study it and only know what people say, then don't use it. (Most people should avoid legal issues, for instance. So few really do know anything about the real Law, just what they see on Law and Order. Which makes mistakes for plot purposes.)

[Scalenex]

The point was missed, perhaps I should have used [Spoiler] in the title. I was debating the merits of the SRD, if I was it would be in the RPG forum, not the OoS forum. The arguments hear show the potential for jokes about the rules that is the bread and butter of the comic.

[ginojames]

The game mechanics behind having this costs is obvious, but there seems to be argument about the role playing aspects of this cost.

The Spell description says "Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp." not "Diamonds that COST a total of least 5,000 gp" there is a difference. It's not about the material itself, but the actual worth of the material, which, yes, can vary from place to place.

This is a priest spell and it is reasonable to assume the spell components constitute some kind of offering to the god granting the spell. Gods aren't stupid and not likely to fall for some kind of trick like buying an inferior diamond in order to satisfy the spell component requirement. The priest attempting to cast the spell should make sure that whatever diamonds he is using for the spell actually constitute the worth of at least 5000gp.

Asking your god to do something like raising the dead and then gypping them in the process is likely to generate ill favor toward the disciple :).

[Sisqui]

actually, the wording is worth, not cost:

Worth is not the same thing as cost. if you spend 100,000gp on a diamond that is worth 5gp, it's still only worth 5gp... even though it cost you much more.


Oh, my dear holy gods, SOMEONE who understands a little bit about economics. Thank you, thank you thank you! (Although it should be the other way around- it is worth whatever a person is willing to pay. Its cost is whatever the supplier had to pay to produce the item.)

Also, there is no such thing as price gouging! It is called supply and demand. When the demand goes up, the price goes up. This causes a higher profit margin. This causes more suppliers to come to the area to provide the product. This increases the supply to meet the demand and the price goes down. Everybody has what they want, even if they weren't happy about the price they paid for it. When prices are artificially held constant, the profit motive is squelched and, once the initial supply is gone, there is no product available AT ANY PRICE!

[RobbyPants]

Raise Dead takes expensive gems. Just having the gp may not be enough. There will likely be lots of people who are candidates for Raise Dead and a fair number of nobles. What if the gem dealers raised their prices?
Yes, but Roy trumps all the nobles because he's a PC and they're NPCs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html).

[Poppatomus]

Oh, my dear holy gods, SOMEONE who understands a little bit about economics. Thank you, thank you thank you! (Although it should be the other way around- it is worth whatever a person is willing to pay. Its cost is whatever the supplier had to pay to produce the item.)

Also, there is no such thing as price gouging! It is called supply and demand. When the demand goes up, the price goes up. This causes a higher profit margin. This causes more suppliers to come to the area to provide the product. This increases the supply to meet the demand and the price goes down. Everybody has what they want, even if they weren't happy about the price they paid for it. When prices are artificially held constant, the profit motive is squelched and, once the initial supply is gone, there is no product available AT ANY PRICE!

Suddenly the Ayn Rand quote goes from interesting to dangerous.

This is the dictionary definition of price gouging:

pricing above the market price when no alternative retailer is available

In common usage, it means taking advantage of a sudden scarcity in order to raise the price of a needed item. So, say you have a diamond on sale for 5,000 gp, and the town needs to rez someone. You suddenly realize you have the town's only 5,000 gp diamond. yesterday you would have gladly sold the diamond for 5,000, but after realizing you have the only one and someone actually needs it, you raise the price to 500,000.

Now, economically speaking, no problem with that, charge what the market will bear. however, there is a difference between upping the price to 500,000 because supply has gone down relative to demand, (there's one left, a million people want them and the richest guy will pay 500,000) and adjusting your price in order to maximally gouge customers. It has all the same problems as monopoly, from an economic perspective, with none of the benefits of efficiency because price gouging applies only to temporary and usually unforseen scarcity.

The most egregious case of price gouging in recent memory was on sept 11th. A few of the local shops, I think starbucks actually, decided that they were going to up the price on bottle of water that day from 1 dollar per bottle to 50$. This wasn't because there were many more people asking for water or because water had run low, but because they knew that during the disaster people NEEDED the water and thus they could get more out of them.

Price gouging is like capitalism, but without the humanity, which is saying a lot.

EDIT: To relate it to your Rand quote, price gouging represents a perversion of everything that is wrong with Rand's ideology and nothing that is good about it. The strength of objectivism, as captured in your quote, is that it can appeal to the way humanity really behaves and claim efficiency. by contrast, price gouging has nothing to do with efficiency or hard work and everything to do with luck and exploitation. If anything, it represents a willful suspension of the sense of fair play that characterizes much of human intereaction as well as the consequences that result from taking advantage of people's temporary weakness.

Also, just to clarify my position:

A guy in the desert owns a well and charges 1 dollar for a cup of water.

More people start coming to the well, so he charges 2 dollars: not price gouging

the well starts to run dry so he has less water and charges 2 dollars: not price gouging

nothing has changed with the well or the demand on the well, but a guy comes in nearly dead of thirst. The unfortunate soul hands the guy a dollar and the well owner says that he just raised the price to all of the current customers worldly posessions and any/all immortal souls he may possess: price gouging.

[Dolash]

Regardless of how people choose to interpret the cost thing for their own games, I can certainly see it playing into a joke - very OOTS-like for, say, Hinjo to break up the large diamond into little pieces then sell them to himself using 5,000 gp apiece to allow for multiple raises.

[WarriorTribble]

I'll just note diamonds can come in various colors including red and black. And Belkar just got in hands on... a creature with red and black gems for eyes.

[Twilight Jack]

I'll just note diamonds can come in various colors including red and black. And Belkar just got in hands on... a creature with red and black gems for eyes.

Although all diamonds are gems, and some diamonds are red or black, not all red or black gems are diamonds.

[WarriorTribble]

Just pointing out a possiblity not a gurantee. :smalltongue:

[Sisqui]

Suddenly the Ayn Rand quote goes from interesting to dangerous.

This is the dictionary definition of price gouging:

pricing above the market price when no alternative retailer is available



The new price IS the market price. In a so-called gouging situation, the market has seen some shift which has made the commodity more valuable. Therefore the price becomes whatever the new market will bear. By your definition, whenever a company that is the sole producer of a commodity raised its price, it would be gouging, regardless of the grounds for the change.

[Ladorak]

The diamond is an offering to whatever god you pray to. Lol, I can jst imagine it now...

(Picking up from Demented's hilorious first post)

Cleric: Ah, friend Barbarian, did you find the diamond as requested?

Barbarian: Sure did, here you go.

Cleric: ... It's a little small, are you sure-

Rogue: Yes, we definatly spent 5000gp on it. That's what it's worth.

Cleric: Well I don't have appraise so I'll take your word for it. Oh mighty Shar-Hal-Dunn, the eternally venguful and smiter of cheats-

Barbarian: Smiter of what now?

Cleric: Punisher of ventor killers and mortals foolish enough to cross the gods

Rogue: Umm...

Cleric: We offer this expensive diamond if you will return our fallen comrade to us.

Shar-Hal-Dunn: Sure no prob... Hey wait a minute, this isn't a diamond, this is a piece of glass you bullied some poor shop keeper into selling you for 5000 gp

*Party dies*

[Gavin Sage]

Raise Dead takes expensive gems. Just having the gp may not be enough. There will likely be lots of people who are candidates for Raise Dead and a fair number of nobles. What if the gem dealers raised their prices?

Assuming the city stands somehow Azure City is a metropolis I gather which means about any mundane (read:non-magical) item should be availible. And D&D favors set prices for simplicity sake.

(Also the nobles left)

[BelkarIsAGod]

Oh, my dear holy gods, SOMEONE who understands a little bit about economics. Thank you, thank you thank you! (Although it should be the other way around- it is worth whatever a person is willing to pay. Its cost is whatever the supplier had to pay to produce the item.)


I agree. If you think a Diamond is worth 100,000 gp just because you spent that on it, then isn't that jewel you just slit that guy's throat for WORTHLESS??:amused:

(It might be worth a Throat-cutting, but who wants that?:smallyuk: )

[EyethatBinds]

I wonder if the rules would be lax enough to allow another valuable gem in it's place. I think there is a decently valuable Saphire that the order could get their hands on without much trouble. Then bang Roy's back in action.
Also if the whole paying 5,000gp trick even worked it would mean that any stolen items would be therefore worthless since they didn't cost anything. Which would mean crime wouldn't pay and the entire system would collapse.

[The_Weirdo]

Eschew Materials works only on components that cost 1 gp or less, like bat guano

There are classes that expend other kinds of material. Blood Mages used to be able to expend about 17 HP in blood in exchange for any material worth more than a given amount - meaning 17 HP to replace 5000 GP in diamond, which would work nicely with some minor-level clerics to heal the guy while he spent his next two months raising dead...

[EyethatBinds]

Actually, Blood Magusi [?] can only use their HP to increase their caster level. Any material component must still be provided. Also only an arcane caster may become a blood magus, making a cleric/wizard/blood magus even if it worked an illogical choice for a character.

[DetailBear]

Blood Magusi [?]

Magi. :smallwink:

[Poppatomus]

The new price IS the market price. In a so-called gouging situation, the market has seen some shift which has made the commodity more valuable. Therefore the price becomes whatever the new market will bear. By your definition, whenever a company that is the sole producer of a commodity raised its price, it would be gouging, regardless of the grounds for the change.

The recursiveness of the original quoted definition, which I would point out I elaborated on substantially in the rest of the post, addresses this issue.

"pricing above the market price when no alternative retailer is available" was only a starting point for the definition. would have been nice to go round and round on this point, but alas.