Early Hide in Plain Sight

[Shnigda]

Hey guys, I was wondering what is the earliest ECL at which you could get the good version of HiPS?
I think I read something that said you can get it at ECL 3, but I neither remember what it entailed nor where I read it...
Any ideas are much appreciated!

[Flickerdart]

Dark template - but IIRC you get the crap version of HiPS.

[Shnigda]

Ah yes, the bad version...
I shall edit the original to be more specific

[Forrestfire]

If you're good with spending some gold and turning evil, there's a magical location listed in Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave that grants a version of the Dark template with the good HiPS.

[Valwyn]

If you are okay with being a gnome and investing six levels in paladin, you could take a Shadow Cloak Knight substitution level. At sixth level you get HiPS as an EX ability plus Hide and Move Silently as class skills for that level. You don't seem to give up anything, either. I imagine you give up Remove Disease, since it doesn't show up in the SCK chart, but the description doesn't specify that. Of course, it's just Remove Disease, so it's not much of a loss. (At 4th level you get Favored Enemy (choose one Humanoid) and at 9th you get Invisibility 1/day. Not bad.)

[Darrin]

Warlock 1 + Blend Into Shadows (Drow of the Underdark). But it will cost you your swift action.

[Curmudgeon]

If you're good with spending some gold and turning evil, there's a magical location listed in Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave that grants a version of the Dark template with the good HiPS.
"Dark" is a standard (inherited or acquired) template in Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave (page 152) that requires no magical location. It's mostly similar to the Tome of Magic "Dark" creature template, except the Hide in Plain Sight has been upgraded to Supernatural, with no need for cover/concealment. If you're adventuring in Faerûn it's clearly the way to go. Buy off the LA for 3,000 XP at class level 3, and you're golden. No funky location, no gold, and no Evil requirement (usually one step away from the originally alignment, rarely Good).


If you are okay with being a gnome and investing six levels in paladin, you could take a Shadow Cloak Knight substitution level. At sixth level you get HiPS as an EX ability plus Hide and Move Silently as class skills for that level. You don't seem to give up anything, either. I imagine you give up Remove Disease, since it doesn't show up in the SCK chart, but the description doesn't specify that. Of course, it's just Remove Disease, so it's not much of a loss. (At 4th level you get Favored Enemy (choose one Humanoid) and at 9th you get Invisibility 1/day. Not bad.)
There's no reason for the Shadow Cloak Knight description to specify anything, because it's a general rule.

For each class with racial substitution levels, you can select each substitution level only at a specific class level. When you take a substitution level for your class at a given level, you give up the class features gained at that level for the standard class, and you get the substitution level features instead.

[ShurikVch]

Shadow Creature template give you Shadow Blend (Su), which work very similarly to HiPS in "any conditions other than full daylight"; LA: +2

Shadar-Kai (Fiend Folio) have racial HiPS; 3 HD and LA: +1

Hellbreaker PrC get (at the very 1st level) HiPS-like ability Mantle of Darkness, which work in any kind of darkness

[Extra Anchovies]

Since we're on the topic of Hide in Plain Sight: why is everyone obsessed with getting it? What makes it so useful? Is not needing cover to sneak past someone really that important? Why can't you just get some sort of at-will invisibility?

It's treated like something that a characters absolutely needs to be sneaky, to the point that a character can't be sneaky without it, but I honestly don't know why.

[Darrin]

Since we're on the topic of Hide in Plain Sight: why is everyone obsessed with getting it?


It's an excellent and reliable "NOPE!" button for meatbags, non-casters, and the other various Tier 3/4/5's.



What makes it so useful? Is not needing cover to sneak past someone really that important? Why can't you just get some sort of at-will invisibility?


Invisibility is easily countered by a 3rd level wizard or someone with 25 GP in loose change (Torch Bug Paste, Complete Scoundrel). Flour pouches (1 SP, Dungeonscape) are even cheaper.



It's treated like something that a characters absolutely needs to be sneaky, to the point that a character can't be sneaky without it, but I honestly don't know why.

Well, you need Darkstalker, too...

Mostly, though, it's about the player establishing control over the environment, which is usually in the purview of the DM. Without HiPS, every attempt to hide starts with two questions: 1) "What can I hide behind?" and 2) "Is anyone observing me?" The answer to both of these questions is dictated by the DM who declares what part of the environment offers cover/concealment and decides where the antagonists are directing their attention. HiPS allows the player to circumvent DM Fiat in some cases, removing the DM's ability to say, "You can't hide there." Once the PC is hidden, it shifts a portion of the narrative control away from the DM (deciding who the antagonists can attack) and towards the player (a hidden PC deciding to do "X" cannot be opposed by someone who isn't aware of him).

[Curmudgeon]

It's treated like something that a characters absolutely needs to be sneaky, to the point that a character can't be sneaky without it, but I honestly don't know why.
You can be sneaky in other ways, but those are mostly spells (Greater Invisibility, Superior Invisibility, & c.). Hide in Plain Sight (plus Darkstalker) is a way to make Hide be a generally usable skill. Normally you aren't allowed to Hide. To use the skill you need all of the following:

Someone with line of sight to your position. Total cover or total concealment means there's no chance of being seen, so you're not allowed to Hide.
Cover or concealment, of the non-total kind.
Not being observed. Hard to make happen, because people are generally observing everything in their line of sight in D&D.

Without being able to produce magic, Hide in Plain Sight is pretty much the only way to be reliably sneaky.

[frogglesmash]

Sorry to derail this thread further, but what are the differences between the good and bad versions of HiPS?

[Flickerdart]

Sorry to derail this thread further, but what are the differences between the good and bad versions of HiPS?
Well, there are loads of different versions, but primarily two:

HiPS (Ex) like the ranger's gives you the ability to hide while being observed, but does not give you the ability to hide without cover or concealment.
HiPS (Su) like the shadowdancer's gives you the ability to hide while being observed, AND without having any cover. Typically, it comes with the original restriction (must be within 10 feet of a shadow).

[frogglesmash]

Well, there are loads of different versions, but primarily two:

HiPS (Ex) like the ranger's gives you the ability to hide while being observed, but does not give you the ability to hide without cover or concealment.
HiPS (Su) like the shadowdancer's gives you the ability to hide while being observed, AND without having any cover. Typically, it comes with the original restriction (must be within 10 feet of a shadow).

I'm just going to ruin one of my PC's day with this information.

[Necroticplague]

Shadow Creature template give you Shadow Blend (Su), which work very similarly to HiPS in "any conditions other than full daylight"; LA: +2

Actually, its a fair bit better than that. HiPS still requires you to make hide checks. Shadow Blend simply flat-out gives full concealment, which the hide skill states:

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

(The exception that it mentions under 'special' is how invisible creatures can be spotted).

[Miss Disaster]

In Gestalt play, I always, always ensure that one side of my Gestalt build focuses on getting the *good* version (Su) of HiPS, Darkstalker and the appropriate Stealth skills to support it .... within a reasonable (and usually very small) expenditure of build resources.

The other side of my Gestalt build can really be anything else and of any Tier #. Plus, the ability to still use the remainder of my vast build resources to make this side the "primary focus" side of what I wanna be.

For example, a Tier #1 Wizard (even without PrCs) on one side and a HiPS composite on the other makes for one incredibly hard-to-kill Gestalt character. This is within the comparative context of superior-competitive play in the Gestalt environment.

[Psyren]

Since we're on the topic of Hide in Plain Sight: why is everyone obsessed with getting it? What makes it so useful? Is not needing cover to sneak past someone really that important? Why can't you just get some sort of at-will invisibility?

It's treated like something that a characters absolutely needs to be sneaky, to the point that a character can't be sneaky without it, but I honestly don't know why.

Without it, hiding in combat is nearly impossible, and combat is when a character is most in danger - particularly "glass cannon" stealth classes which tend to have weaker fort and/or will saves, low HP and low AC. Treantmonk called rogues "The Corpse" for a reason.