Pathfinder Optimizing Your Backstory, a Guide to Traits and Flaws. [Archive]

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TheOneHawk

2015-07-23, 11:01 AM

So Tips and Traits is a great trait guide for Pathfinder that I've used many times. Unfortunately, it's now very out of date and as far as I can tell there is no other trait guide. That's just unacceptable, so I've taken it in to my own hands. So far I just have the combat traits done, but I'm looking for any advice and critique's on, well, anything to do with the guide. Hopefully when this is done it'll help some people out.

Link (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1haB1PbKWonNjesND2Sl-Yzrc9-s26dBS3_zHfqyywdw/edit?usp=sharing)

Mehangel

2015-07-23, 11:25 AM

In response to Cooperative Combatant and Battlefield Disciple, there are specific classes such as Path of War 2: Zealot who utilizes the Aid Another action to recover maneuvers; or Path of War 1: Warlord who can already add a huge bonus on Aid Another as it is. So while not an optimal choice, there are statistical outliers in particular builds that granting a +2 bonus to the Aid Another might be worth thinking about. Not saying that there aren't more effective traits, or that the trait needs to be bumped up to an orange, but rather, that to specific builds, it might be an orange.

TheOneHawk

2015-07-23, 12:14 PM

I haven't read PoW expanded yet, so I wasn't aware of it. I'll look at those later and maybe bump them up, or at least add a comment about that potential synergy.

TheOneHawk

2015-07-23, 09:58 PM

Updated the guide with the Equipment traits and commented on the Zealot and Warlord having synergy with Aid Another in combat.

Unbodied

2015-07-24, 02:39 AM

What are your thoughts on the Domineering trait?

TheOneHawk

2015-07-24, 02:51 AM

Haven't gotten there, yet, but I think it has its uses. It definitely has to be used on a spell that remains useful throughout a campaign. Domineering (Sleep) is useless past level 4. Domineering (Charm Person) is useful forever. That said, it's likely a sub-optimal choice on anyone except a dedicated enchanter, and the dedicated enchanter probably doesn't really need it.

Unbodied

2015-07-24, 04:27 AM

Whew, dodged a bullet there.

What are your thoughts on Spark of Creation? Would the +1 to Craft also apply to Spellcraft when crafting magic/psionic items? If so that trait seems crazy good.

TheOneHawk

2015-07-24, 04:38 AM

I'd say probably not on the Craft bonus applying to Spellcraft, but you would have to ask your DM on that. Regardless, I don't think it's a particularly powerful trait simply because you still need to get the item creation feats, which are basically selling your feat slots for gold. I don't like them, personally, but some do. Generally speaking, however, the average power of a trait is half of a feat. An item creation feat gives you 50% off of buying items of that kind, assuming you are able to make them yourself. Spark of creation gives 5% of creating those items, or one tenth of the bonus of a feat.

Unbodied

2015-07-24, 04:53 AM

What about the commercial savvy trait then?

Also for Item Creation feats have you considered obtaining or crafting a Map of the Mind if you're playing a psionic character? With that you could craft any kind of Item while only needing to spend a single feat. Just switch between the different types when you want to make something new. ;)

TheOneHawk

2015-07-24, 04:59 AM

I don't like Commercial Savvy for the same reason as Dealmaker. Copied from the guide: "This is unlikely to come up very often, and while it might save you some travel time, that’s all it really does since you can usually just go to a larger city."

These traits also generally completely lose all value as soon as your party gets access to long range teleportation. Town's too small to buy the item you want? Teleport to a bigger city then teleport back. If you're in town all day you don't need those spell slot's anyways.

I'm not familiar with the Map of the Mind. Link?

Unbodied

2015-07-24, 05:22 AM

Ah ****. I completely misread that trait. I thought it let you sell and buy stuff for better prices like the Dusk Merchants trait.

Edit:
I can't find it online but its in the Item section of Ultimate Psionics. Its basically Psychic Reformation that can only be used once a week no matter who uses it and with no option of removing the negative side effects. I was able to get it for free simply by asking the GM politely since the Psychic Reformation power is so stupidly overpowered.

It also has more fluff than Psychic Reformation. It explains the ability to change your feats/skills/powers with the map literally being a map of your mind with alterations you make on the map causing alterations in yourself.

Unbodied

2015-07-24, 07:42 AM

So Tips and Traits is a great trait guide for Pathfinder that I've used many times. Unfortunately, it's now very out of date and as far as I can tell there is no other trait guide. That's just unacceptable, so I've taken it in to my own hands.I really appreciate you doing this by the way. I didn’t realize how much stuff I was missing because of the old guide.

Like Bruising Intellect and Clever Wordplay. Those are perfect for a Forgeborn brutal disruptor. Now the Intimidate class feature actually becomes possible to use.

TheOneHawk

2015-07-24, 10:06 AM

Unbodied

2015-07-24, 10:19 AM

That's exactly why I'm doing it. I was DMing a game and I saw a trait I didn't recognize, so I looked at the traits on D20PFSRD and was absolutely blown away how many weren't in Tips and Traits. It's a great guide, but damn it's out of date.If there's anything I can do to help let me know, though I'm not sure how much help I would be. I'm still really new at this.

Haven't gotten there, yet, but I think it has its uses. It definitely has to be used on a spell that remains useful throughout a campaign. Domineering (Sleep) is useless past level 4. Domineering (Charm Person) is useful forever. That said, it's likely a sub-optimal choice on anyone except a dedicated enchanter, and the dedicated enchanter probably doesn't really need it.Does the Born Under the Green Star trait (+1 CL on Mind Affecting) seem worthwhile for a partially telepathy based character? Or is that also redundant?

TheOneHawk

2015-07-24, 10:56 AM

Unbodied

2015-07-25, 04:12 AM

Attacked by space pirates?! Seriously!? XD
Who on earth came up with that? XD

Good work on the list, its a lot longer than the last time I checked it. Are there any traits you are or had trouble with that you would like a second opinion on?

The main issue with mind-affecting is how much stuff is immune to it. Solid pick on an Enchanter, but it's quite campaign and character dependent. A lot of DM's might deny that particular trait as well, since it's from People of the Stars, which is designed for interplanetary Pathfinder. Most Pathfinder games don't possess that level of technology.
I figure the fluff can easily be altered to fit our campaign world, the character just needs to have been born in a place with lots of psychic energy. Since I'm playing an Elan that's pretty easy.

What are your thoughts on the Tireless Logic trait?

TheOneHawk

2015-07-25, 04:47 AM

Unbodied

2015-07-25, 05:09 AM

I think Tireless Logic is completely outclassed by Inspired, to the point of irrelevance.

I'd like a second opinion on every trait. Anything you see that I missed a potential application of, feel free to either leave a comment in the sheet or just post here. I'll consider any opinions, and potentially alter ratings and descriptions based on it.

Faith traits are complete, including our first 2 purple traits!
Holy boop that's a good trait! :smalleek:

On the other hand it doesn't suit the character the way Tireless Logic does. :smallfrown:

I'll take a look at things and see if there's anything that seems strange.

Edit:
"Family Traits
These are all terrible."

Agreed. Such a shame, it could have been the perfect example of what traits are all about. :(

Tuvarkz

2015-07-25, 06:00 AM

You should probably include whatever deity is requisite for each faith/religion trait. While not listed on the pfsrd, they all should be on archives of nethys

Unbodied

2015-07-25, 06:19 AM

You should probably include whatever deity is requisite for each faith/religion trait. While not listed on the pfsrd, they all should be on archives of nethys
Oh yeah completely agree with this. I'm not sure if they should be listed in alphabetical order with the name of the deity by the side or if they should be grouped together under their respective deities like the old guide did. The former is better for people who saw a trait listed on pfsrd and want to see what other people think of it while the latter is useful for people who want to worship a specific deity or type of deity. Maybe also add the gods alignments next to their name?

Unbodied

2015-07-25, 07:07 AM

I'd like a second opinion on every trait. Anything you see that I missed a potential application of, feel free to either leave a comment in the sheet or just post here. I'll consider any opinions, and potentially alter ratings and descriptions based on it. Power of Suggestion seems really underrated. I've left most of my commentary there.

Edit:
Can you see my comments? I can't see any comments from anyone else and there's a Join Chat (you will no longer be anonymous) button that makes me wonder if I'm the only one that can see my comments.

NightbringerGGZ

2015-07-25, 08:43 AM

The main issue with mind-affecting is how much stuff is immune to it. Solid pick on an Enchanter, but it's quite campaign and character dependent. A lot of DM's might deny that particular trait as well, since it's from People of the Stars, which is designed for interplanetary Pathfinder. Most Pathfinder games don't possess that level of technology.

As far as helping, just commenting on stuff and being interested helps keep me focused. There's a lot of guide left to write and I'm sure I'll realize how foolish this endeavour is quickly. I may also include third party traits, eventually. One step at a time, though.

I'd note that there are classes in Occult Adventures (particularly the Mesmerist and the Psychic) which will be able to use mind-affecting abilities on normally immune creatures. As their spells lists have a strong focus on enchantment, it isn't a horrible trait for them.

Btw, have you considered organizing your list by themes? For instance, traits which are excellent for specific classes, traits which allow you to use alternate attribute scores, traits which grant class skills AND a bonus (a surprising number of traits only give you the class skill).

Unbodied

2015-07-25, 09:08 AM

I'd note that there are classes in Occult Adventures (particularly the Mesmerist and the Psychic) which will be able to use mind-affecting abilities on normally immune creatures. As their spells lists have a strong focus on enchantment, it isn't a horrible trait for them.
How would you rate it for the Ascendant Psion archetype? Yay or nay?

I'm going to be playing in a city setting so there's likely to be a lot of humanoid encounters. I don't think those are immune to Mind Affecting most of the time?

TheOneHawk

2015-07-25, 10:07 AM

You should probably include whatever deity is requisite for each faith/religion trait. While not listed on the pfsrd, they all should be on archives of nethys

I'm not sure how Archives of Nethys has permission to display that, but I'm pretty sure the gods are copyrighted material, which is why they're not on the SRD and why they are currently not in my guide. That said, I could be completely wrong and they're free to show, but unless I'm sure I'm not infringing on any copyrights, I'm not going to do it.

Power of Suggestion seems really underrated. I've left most of my commentary there.

Edit:
Can you see my comments? I can't see any comments from anyone else and there's a Join Chat (you will no longer be anonymous) button that makes me wonder if I'm the only one that can see my comments.

I can see your comments, I'll respond to them all there. The only person who can see everyone's comments is me.

I'd note that there are classes in Occult Adventures (particularly the Mesmerist and the Psychic) which will be able to use mind-affecting abilities on normally immune creatures. As their spells lists have a strong focus on enchantment, it isn't a horrible trait for them.

Btw, have you considered organizing your list by themes? For instance, traits which are excellent for specific classes, traits which allow you to use alternate attribute scores, traits which grant class skills AND a bonus (a surprising number of traits only give you the class skill).

I would like to, yes, but first let me get through all the traits on a first pass before I start doing anything more ambitious.

grarrrg

2015-07-25, 11:51 AM

Just did a quick skim for now.

Unblemished Barrel: ... it takes you only 30 minutes to remove the broken condition from a firearm. It only takes six seconds to cast Mending. Very skippable.

It actually takes 10 Minutes to cast Mending (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mending).
Still a pretty horrible trait, but not nearly as worthless as thought (and Mending is still a Cantrip/Orison, so it only costs time).

Heirloom Weapon:
The 'fluff' text is actually a vital part of the Trait. Should note that it can only be used with a Simple or Martial weapon (Exotic shenanigans got errata'd away).
Can also potentially be useful to give a Martial Proficiency to a "simples only" class. Still doesn't change it's rating though.

General Suggestion:
For strictly better/mostly better traits, should list the better versions under the worst version.
"Easy Way or the Hard Way" should list "Weapon of Peace" and "Blade of Mercy" (religious trait) as better options.

Oh yeah completely agree with this. I'm not sure if they should be listed in alphabetical order with the name of the deity by the side or if they should be grouped together under their respective deities like the old guide did.

Alphabetical order.
People can always just use ctrl+F to search for specific deities.

Unbodied

2015-07-25, 12:58 PM

I can't use google Doc on my phone so I'm responding here. The old trait guide has a link to the old Family Heirloom trait in the commentary on the new one.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dVQA-uI740Hh8vq-zsnbHV6UwJg-4QKlpmkxBEmCdhA/mobilebasic?pli=1#id.ozp8vjudu27u

Unbodied

2015-07-25, 02:05 PM

Just found a trait that I'm pretty sure isn't on dpsr. Does anyone know if this trait can be used in regular play? Seems like its from some advanced origins book.

http://www.pfsdb.com/traits/scion-of-the-shory

Category Region
Requirement(s) Mwangi Expanse
The blood of a Shory aeromancer flows through your veins. You gain a +2 bonus on concentration checks when casting flight spells such as levitate, fly, or overland flight. Once per day, you can use message as a spell-like ability.

On a slightly different note what do people think of the Psigifted trait? It let's you pick one power you know (so it should be 1st lv unless you get it via Additional Traits) and your effective Manifester Level for that power increases by 1.

Edit:
Also how do these Ophiduan and Xeph traits sound? The snake people get Infiltrator which gives +1 Bluff and Diplomacy against non-ophiduans (most everyone in most campaigns) and Sense Motive as a class skill. The Xeph get +1 to bypass power/spell resistance, oh and Soulknives get a +2 to make mind blades inside null psionic fields I guess.

TheOneHawk

2015-07-25, 08:40 PM

Just did a quick skim for now.

It actually takes 10 Minutes to cast Mending (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mending).
Still a pretty horrible trait, but not nearly as worthless as thought (and Mending is still a Cantrip/Orison, so it only costs time).

Heirloom Weapon:
The 'fluff' text is actually a vital part of the Trait. Should note that it can only be used with a Simple or Martial weapon (Exotic shenanigans got errata'd away).
Can also potentially be useful to give a Martial Proficiency to a "simples only" class. Still doesn't change it's rating though.

General Suggestion:
For strictly better/mostly better traits, should list the better versions under the worst version.
"Easy Way or the Hard Way" should list "Weapon of Peace" and "Blade of Mercy" (religious trait) as better options.

Alphabetical order.
People can always just use ctrl+F to search for specific deities.

Thanks. I agree with traits that have strictly better versions elsewhere having them listed, I'm planning on adding that after the first pass, though.

TheOneHawk

2015-07-25, 10:20 PM

Unbodied

2015-07-26, 04:14 AM

It's a very small section, but Family Traits are done. I love the caveat that you can take more than one of these particular type of traits. If you REALLY want to waste your traits, take two of these trashy ones instead of one! Thanks Paizo!!!Got an email from Paizo. They said to tell you that you're welcome and that they wrote that specifically to annoy you. :smalltongue:

On a different tack I'm still not sure about the rating for Power of Suggestion so I'd like some third or fourth opinions.

Power of Suggestion
People trust your words over their own eyes.

Benefit: You may make a Bluff check to make observers believe that an object in your possession is actually a different object entirely. The DC for the check is 20 for items of a similar size, shape, and color (such as a glaive and a quarterstaff). Items of a different shape, size, or color raise the DC by 5 for each dissimilar aspect, or more if the dissimilarity is extreme. This deception lasts 1 minute; if the item is still in view, the observers may recognize their error unless you make another bluff check.

http://www.outfit4events.com/runtime/cache/images/productFull/mo_3552-01.JPG
This is a glaive

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/age-of-chivalry/images/c/cd/Weapon_select_qstaff.png/revision/latest?cb=20130731032728
And this is a quarterstaff

These are considered similar enough in shape, size and color that the DC for the Bluff check is 20. The flavor text states that people trust your words more than they do their own eyes and the power is called Power of Suggestion. It seems to me that both by the rules as written and the rules as intended this Trait should let you trick people into believing all sorts of crazy bovine excrement. Sure it won't let you trick people into thinking something smells or tastes differently but there's still a ton of fun stuff that should be possible to do with this (cheat at all the card games!). Tricking people into thinking that a glaive is actually a quarterstaff is already so utterly unbelievable that I don't see how the GM can have a lot of ground to stand on to mandate that people aren't stupid enough to fall for it. Its clearly intended to make people believe the unbelievable.

At the very least I think it deserves a double colored shading like the old guide had on the Dusk Agent trait. Maybe have it be Power of Suggestion and add a note that you should consult your GM before picking it to see how far they're willing to let you take it.

Edit:
It also specifies that the deception lasts one minute. As long as you can get the item out of view before then they can't recognize their error, at least if I'm reading that correctly which I'm pretty sure I am. If you sold a shiny orange rock to someone and told them it was a Orange Prism one minute should be plenty of time to get the heck out of dodge, very useful if you have Disguise, illusions, shapeshifting or other methods of ensuring that the fuzz gets the wrong description of the criminal.

Kurald Galain

2015-07-26, 10:40 AM

Very interesting, thanks for doing this.

I'm not sure that alphabetical by category is the best approach to listing traits. Rather, I would like to see all damage-boosting traits together, all "add skill to your class list" traits together, all saving throw traits together, etc. Listing them by effect would make it much easier to find a suitable trait for a character you're building.

Also, note that my Magus guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus&p=19445241#post19445241) lists about 15 traits of use to a Magus; this might be useful for your guide as well.

TheOneHawk

2015-07-26, 10:49 AM

I have your Magus guide thread on instant notification to email, Kurald. Don't worry, I've read the whole thing multiple times. It was actually your guide that made me decide to do this one.

I plan on having everything green + sorted into categories based on effect, as well. I just need to get through all the traits first and have people point out things I missed. Or would it be better to list everything that has that particular type of effect, rather than just green and higher? Green + is less work, everything is more complete but I don't know how much value it really adds.

Kurald Galain

2015-07-26, 10:58 AM

I have your Magus guide thread on instant notification to email, Kurald. Don't worry, I've read the whole thing multiple times. It was actually your guide that made me decide to do this one.
Thanks :smallredface:

Green + is less work, everything is more complete but I don't know how much value it really adds.
Well, in my opinion, the primary aim of a guide is to help people build a character. So it's more useful to give a short list of good choices on a certain topic, than a long list of all choices including crappy ones or unrelated ones.

This is how I've done the spell section in the Magus guide: rather than listing all spells alphabetically, it categorizes spells and lists 3-4 good picks in each category. If spells are uninteresting or simply mediocre, I see no point in listing them (except if they appear good at first sight and I want to point out that they're not).

$.02

TheOneHawk

2015-07-26, 11:04 AM

Yeah, that makes sense, I'll do it like that. First I need to actually get through them all. I'll try and get Magic done tonight when I wake up.

Deadkitten

2015-07-26, 06:23 PM

I'm not sure how Archives of Nethys has permission to display that, but I'm pretty sure the gods are copyrighted material, which is why they're not on the SRD and why they are currently not in my guide. That said, I could be completely wrong and they're free to show, but unless I'm sure I'm not infringing on any copyrights, I'm not going to do it.

There was actually a thread that derailed into a discussion about the PFSRD and Archives of Nethys awhile back.

Archives basically gets away with it because it is a fan based site that doesn't sell anything. Apparently you can have adds to cover the cost of operating the sight but as long as you are not making any profit you can display Golarion specific material.

I wish I could give you a link to it and the relevant stuff on the matter. But the gist is that I'm 99% sure you can list them by gods and not get in trouble.

If anything, if Paizo did find out they would first send you a letter telling you to stop and all you would have to do is reformat the guide and your in the clear.

TheOneHawk

2015-07-26, 10:35 PM

That's good to know. I'll probably add them when I get to Religion traits. I don't believe any Faith traits require specific deities.

Also, there's a ****ing lot of Magic traits. I got A-K done, I'll try and get them finished by tomorrow.

Unbodied

2015-07-27, 01:19 AM

Endarire

2015-07-27, 03:51 AM

Unbodied

2015-07-27, 04:20 AM

Also, there's a ****ing lot of Magic traits. I got A-K done, I'll try and get them finished by tomorrow.
My computer is acting up so I have to respond here (my phone won't let me Edit googledocs). Hegde Magician still seems like its listed to low (unless you're only listing it orange because Spark of Creation is better). Even if you don't like crafting magic items there are a lot of people who do and as far as I know Hedge Magician and Spark of Creation are the only traits that make you better at crafting magic items. I have noticed quite a few traits in your guide that are green or blue even though they're practically useless unless you're playing a certain build or literally useless if you don't play a specific class. Yet those traits deserved their high rankings because if you are playing that build or do play as that class then you seriously need to consider them. Playing a Monk might not be optimal but if you do then a trait that gives a flat bonus to damage with unarmed strikes is golden even if its useless to nearly every other class.

And the same applies for Hegde Magician/Spark of Creation. If you want to be a dedicated crafter then you need to seriously consider those traits.
If there's a worry about not having time for crafting then it should be taken it up with the GM. Unless there's some really compelling reason why the campaign has to take place in a short period of time having some downtime between sessions to craft is the easiest thing in the world to arrange. It even makes more sense in most cases that there would be periods where nothing much happens and it makes it seem less silly that going up a level taught you a new language, play the banjo, forge armor and pick locks.

TheOneHawk

2015-07-27, 04:41 AM

@OP: The categories of traits I've seen in your guide so far (as of today) are thus:

-Get a useful class skill or/and a helpful bonus to a class skill. Good.

-Initiative bonus. Wonderful.

-Some misc. helpful trick. Yay!

-Junk, junk, and more junk.

Welcome to traits. Most of them are trash. That's why I'm sorting them, so you don't have to.

My computer is acting up so I have to respond here (my phone won't let me Edit googledocs). Hegde Magician still seems like its listed to low (unless you're only listing it orange because Spark of Creation is better). Even if you don't like crafting magic items there are a lot of people who do and as far as I know Hedge Magician and Spark of Creation are the only traits that make you better at crafting magic items. I have noticed quite a few traits in your guide that are green or blue even though they're practically useless unless you're playing a certain build or literally useless if you don't play a specific class. Yet those traits deserved their high rankings because if you are playing that build or do play as that class then you seriously need to consider them. Playing a Monk might not be optimal but if you do then a trait that gives a flat bonus to damage with unarmed strikes is golden even if its useless to nearly every other class.

And the same applies for Hegde Magician/Spark of Creation. If you want to be a dedicated crafter then you need to seriously consider those traits.
If there's a worry about not having time for crafting then it should be taken it up with the GM. Unless there's some really compelling reason why the campaign has to take place in a short period of time having some downtime between sessions to craft is the easiest thing in the world to arrange. It even makes more sense in most cases that there would be periods where nothing much happens and it makes it seem less silly that going up a level taught you a new language, play the banjo, forge armor and pick locks.

I... I just really hate crafting feats. Any comments from the peanut gallery on this?

Kurald Galain

2015-07-27, 06:41 AM

I... I just really hate crafting feats. Any comments from the peanut gallery on this?

I like crafting feats (particularly wondrous item), but I don't think the 5% bonus from these traits is worth it. You save 500 gp for every 10,000 gp you craft, yeah, that's just not a whole lot.

Unbodied

2015-07-27, 11:53 AM

Welcome to traits. Most of them are trash. That's why I'm sorting them, so you don't have to.

I... I just really hate crafting feats. Any comments from the peanut gallery on this?

I like crafting feats (particularly wondrous item), but I don't think the 5% bonus from these traits is worth it. You save 500 gp for every 10,000 gp you craft, yeah, that's just not a whole lot.
I'm not really sure myself. On one hand every GP saved is a GP earned and presumably it really pays off in the long run. On the other hand calculating how much I would save on crafting items I really want has been kind of depressing (though I don't have a lot of gold to burn at the moment).

On the third hand I checked out the Mindwright class again, a dedicated crafter archetype for the Psion that gives up a lot of cool powers in return for supreme craftmanship. At level 2 it gets a 5% discount with its Efficient Artisan ability. Then 10% at level 6, 15% at level 10, 20% at level 14 and 25% at level 18. It can't stack that discount with other cost savers like Spark of Creation, presumably because it would make psionic items to cheap to make. So that's what's considered a fair discount in a craft specialized class that doesn't get discipline powers or Talents (0th level powers), which gets kind of crummy craft related replacements for discipline abilities and that has to spend all the Psion's bonus feats on Item Creation Feats even though Psychic Reformation is on the standard power list which means that regular psions can craft all the same types of items but only needs to spend one feat slot on it.

I realize in retrospect that this kind of sounds like a rant against item crafting. Maybe it is. Depends on whether or not a 25% discount is worth those drawbacks, it very well might be considering all the items you can get to get access to different powers.

Anyways tl;dr: The people who wrote the rules seem to think that a 5% discount is a big deal. They might be right.

TheOneHawk

2015-07-27, 10:27 PM

Magic traits are done.

Unbodied

2015-07-28, 03:36 AM

Magic traits are done.
Not counting Kurald who has already made it clear that he doesn't like it I have gotten two replies on Craft cost savers and both were positive (though not gushing). I think you should at least make Spark of Creation green to differentiate it from Hegde Magician. That +1 on every type of craft check can be useful if you want to create a specific item with a spell/power. Plus I'm very certain that it applies to crafting magic items as well which reduces the risk of failure.

On a different note I noticed that d20pfsrd doesn't list Psionic Traits. Do you want me to take some pictures of the relevant pages in Ultimate Psionics and send them to you?

TheOneHawk

2015-07-28, 04:24 AM

I didn't actually notice that Spark of Creation applied to all Craft checks. That's... something. I'll give it green, but I still don't like it.

As far as Psionic traits, they're third party. I do want to get third party traits done at some point, but I'm starting with just Paizo stuff for now. If they're still not up on the SRD by the time I get to them, I would appreciate you sending them, though.

In other news, I thought there were a lot of Magic traits. Then I looked at Race traits.

Kill me.

Unbodied

2015-07-28, 04:49 AM

In other news, I thought there were a lot of Magic traits. Then I looked at Race traits.

Kill me.
Okay. What's your adress? :P

More seriously though perhaps focus on splitting them up in managable chunks. ABC then DEF etc.

TheOneHawk

2015-07-28, 05:00 AM

Oh I won't be doing them all in one sitting, don't worry. That many traits is probably at least four hours of work for me. It'll be done over the course of a few days, just like Magic was split over 2 days.

I also don't have an address. I live in the middle of absolute nowhere, 2 hours away from the nearest city. Good luck finding me :p

Saidoro

2015-07-28, 12:41 PM

I like crafting feats (particularly wondrous item), but I don't think the 5% bonus from these traits is worth it. You save 500 gp for every 10,000 gp you craft, yeah, that's just not a whole lot.
Keep in mind, if you've got a crafting feat you're crafting for the whole party, not just yourself. That 500 easily turns into 2000 if your party is okay with you keeping the 5% savings(I haven't found a group which objected) and want their items for half price as much as you do(they do). I'd easily put Spark of Creation at blue(though it's certainly not purple unless your campaign is both low leveled and big on down time). Hedge Magician, of course, should be red due to being strictly worse than an option that it cannot possibly be selected simultaneously with.

TheOneHawk

2015-07-28, 12:48 PM

I'm doing traits on their own merits rather than just red marking everything with a mechanically stronger alternative just for my own sanity. I can't keep track mentally of every trait. Once I have them all sorted into categories I can put mentions of options that are simply better in every way.

Saidoro

2015-07-28, 12:57 PM

Fair enough.

Unbodied

2015-07-28, 02:32 PM

I also don't have an address. I live in the middle of absolute nowhere, 2 hours away from the nearest city. Good luck finding me :pYou revealed to much Mr Hawk. I have narrowed it down to three possible locations and have sent teams of elite shinobi to each of them. There will be no escape Mr Hawk.

TheOneHawk

2015-07-30, 12:03 PM

You revealed to much Mr Hawk. I have narrowed it down to three possible locations and have sent teams of elite shinobi to each of them. There will be no escape Mr Hawk.

I apologize for the delay in updates, I spent the last few days engaging in hit and run tactics upon Mr. Unbodied's "elite" shinobi. They have been disposed of and now updates may resume as normal. Race traits A-C are complete.

master4sword

2015-07-30, 12:18 PM

On a different note I noticed that d20pfsrd doesn't list Psionic Traits. Do you want me to take some pictures of the relevant pages in Ultimate Psionics and send them to you?

Psionic Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-alternate-rules/psionic-traits)
Psionic Race Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-alternate-rules/psionic-race-traits)
Dream Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-alternate-rules/dream-traits)

Granted, there's probably some in Ultimate Psionics that aren't on the site.

Unbodied

2015-07-30, 02:12 PM

I apologize for the delay in updates, I spent the last few days engaging in hit and run tactics upon Mr. Unbodied's "elite" shinobi. They have been disposed of and now updates may resume as normal. Race traits A-C are complete.I'll get you next time OneHawk! NEEEEEXT TIIIIMEEEE!

Psionic Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-alternate-rules/psionic-traits)
Psionic Race Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-alternate-rules/psionic-race-traits)
Dream Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-alternate-rules/dream-traits)

Granted, there's probably some in Ultimate Psionics that aren't on the site.
Neat, I didn’t notice those. I think those are all of them, Ult Psi's selection of traits was somewhat lackluster.

By the way OneHawk, you wanted to do third party traits by themselves but what about Race Traits?

TheOneHawk

2015-07-30, 04:16 PM

Third party traits will have their own section, regardless of it they actually share a section with Paizo traits, to prevent confusion with all Paizo games.

Unbodied

2015-07-30, 05:45 PM

Does anyone know if there's a Trait that gives you an animal companion or familiar? I could have sworn I saw a trait like that once.

TheOneHawk

2015-07-31, 01:51 PM

Does anyone know if there's a Trait that gives you an animal companion or familiar? I could have sworn I saw a trait like that once.

I vaguely doubt it and haven't seen it myself, but if there is it's gonna be purple.

Also, Racial traits D-G are up. These are taking a long time to chew through, sorry. There's a lot of them.

Unbodied

2015-07-31, 02:53 PM

I vaguely doubt it and haven't seen it myself, but if there is it's gonna be purple.

Also, Racial traits D-G are up. These are taking a long time to chew through, sorry. There's a lot of them.
Maybe it was a Racial Trait?

Anyway:

Magical Knack: Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn't raise your caster level above your current Hit Dice. Are you playing a casting class without full caster level? Are you playing a caster class and plan on multiclassing into a non caster class? Take this trait. End of story. +2 caster level is a massive buff to get from a trait.

Could you explain this for me? I thought the Knack trait was only useful if you multiclass but its useful for classes without full Caster level? How does that work? And do you or someone else in this thread know if Psionic Knack (which seems to be the exact same thing for manifesters) would be similarly useful to classes that don't get full manifesting like Cryptics, Dreads or Marksmen?

grarrrg

2015-07-31, 08:07 PM

Could you explain this for me? I thought the Knack trait was only useful if you multiclass but its useful for classes without full Caster level? How does that work?

Rangers and Paladins have "Caster level -3".
But oddly enough, Bloodragers have FULL Caster level.

Extra Anchovies

2015-07-31, 08:14 PM

Rangers and Paladins have "Caster level -3".
But oddly enough, Bloodragers have FULL Caster level.

Mediums from Occult adventures do as well, but that's likely because they get knacks (psychic cantrips) from level 1.

Felyndiira

2015-07-31, 08:56 PM

Just want to note that there is another use for the Aid Another traits:

Bodyguard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bodyguard-combat)

Of course, the most common trait to use this with is Helpful (Halfling), which turns the bodyguard bonus to +4. Getting a Benevolent armor can increase it to +9. Adding +9 to a fellow melee ally's AC for as many times as you have attacks of opportunities (not even an immediate action!) can be worthwhile.

Of course, this only applies to general 'help another' traits and not to Battlefield Disciple. Also, Elric ruled that Helpful (both versions) does not stack with the DSP Warlord's special aid another, since both increases it to a static value.

*

Also, the PFSRD is incomplete on more than just Faith/Region traits. For instance, Absalom Bouncer (Combat Trait) is on Nethys, but not on PFSRD.

TheOneHawk

2015-07-31, 10:20 PM

I could be wrong, but I think all the traits are there, just some have been renamed for copyright reasons.

Good find on the bodyguard feat. They are certainly more useful with that. Don't have time to edit it in right now but I'll mention it.

Unbodied

2015-08-01, 02:34 AM

Rangers and Paladins have "Caster level -3".
But oddly enough, Bloodragers have FULL Caster level.But why do they benefit from Magical Knack?

I could be wrong, but I think all the traits are there, just some have been renamed for copyright reasons.

Good find on the bodyguard feat. They are certainly more useful with that. Don't have time to edit it in right now but I'll mention it.
Something else to consider, I saw some "Monks suck, don't play monks" attitude in one of your posts. Is that because you have played every type of Monk and think they all suck or is it because you haven't played the Unchained Monk yet? Supposedly it fixes a lot of the issues with the Monk class.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-01, 02:48 AM

Magical Knack gives you +2 caster level up to a limit of your hit dice. Your hit dice, as a PC, is your character level. If you have a caster level of character level -3, you get a caster level of character level -1 with Magical Knack. +2 caster level is an absolutely massive bonus. For reference, +1 caster level slotless item costs 30,000 gold. Doubling a bonus usually costs 4x, so Magical Knack is effectively a 120,000 gold item. For a trait. If you can use it, you use it. There is no better alternative.

As far as Monks, yeah, Unchained is quite a bit better than standard Monk. It's still a pretty weak class, though. That said, I was more ripping on that trait than Monks with that comment since it's a pretty ridiculously awful trait.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-02, 04:57 AM

Race traits H-J are done. There are no J's, but saying they're done makes me look better.

NightbringerGGZ

2015-08-02, 09:23 AM

Unbodied

2015-08-02, 09:57 AM

Does the Omen trait seem like a good choice for a Brutal Disruptor? On one hand Intimidate is already a class skill and you can use it as a free action after hitting someone by expending psionic focus. On the other hand a Brutal Disruptor usually doesn't have enough Wis to get Psionic Meditation so that's at most two times you can use Intimidate per battle without needing to spend an entire round regaining focus, so an extra Intimidate per day could be useful.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-02, 10:14 AM

Looking over the guide, the only major disagreement I have so far is that I think you're really undervaluing Aid Another. Yes a baseline +2 bonus under limited circumstances as a standard action is poor, but there are a ton of ways to both increase the size of the bonus and to change the action type. Aid another is especially helpful on a support build or healer build as it gives you something to do on those turns that nobody needs direct healing.

The combination of Adopted > Helpful (Halfling) sets the baseline for Aid Another to +4, which is a large enough bonus to be significant throughout an entire game. And this is used on all instances of Aid Another, both in and out of combat.

Battlefield Discipline isn't terrible for a support build. Keep in mind that with Unchained and Occult Adventures we have several new uses for Heal. It's actually quite good now in low wealth or low magic campaigns. Additionally, the +1 to Aid Another on attack rolls stacks with other methods of increasing that bonus.

You'll have to pick up a few feats or class abilities to get these kinds of builds going, but bonuses of +8 to +10 aren't impossible to provide, and that's fairly good for an at-will Standard Action.

I haven't actually read the new uses of Heal from Unchained and Occult Adventures, could you give me the Cliff notes on those?

I can definitely see I was under rating Aid Another, I hadn't realized how many options there were for upgrading it from awful into legitimately useful. Bodyguard, for one, was a bit of a revelation for me. I'd simply never read that feat before. What other feats are you using to upgrade Aid Another into something worthwhile.

@Unbodied: If you already have Intimidate in class, it's a +1 bonus with a 1/day ability that's pretty strong. I don't think it would be an optimal choice, maybe hold onto a gun and take larger than life for a +4 bonus, but it wouldn't be a particularly terrible choice, either.

NightbringerGGZ

2015-08-02, 10:42 AM

There are a bunch of options, but as a quick guide take a look at this blog: http://taking10.blogspot.com/2014/07/aid-another-in-pathfinder-is-more.html

Note, this is already out of date. More options have been added since the post was published. Investigator's for instance, can pick up a an ability to make Aid Another checks as move actions, or as swift actions by spending a point of Inspiration.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-02, 12:06 PM

I'll probably go through all the Aid Another traits and rewrite them at this point. I was wrong about (some of) them.

NightbringerGGZ

2015-08-02, 12:57 PM

Unbodied

2015-08-02, 01:38 PM

I'll probably go through all the Aid Another traits and rewrite them at this point. I was wrong about (some of) them.

I agree with the "some of". The ones that just bump a specific Aid Another action to a +3 bonus should have a red rating.
Maybe we could start a seminar or something. Rule number 1: Narrow situational bonuses suck and are a waste of everyone's time.

Squirrel_Dude

2015-08-02, 02:05 PM

Kurald Galain

2015-08-02, 04:20 PM

Maybe we could start a seminar or something. Rule number 1: Narrow situational bonuses suck and are a waste of everyone's time.

Gods yes. You gain a +2 bonus to bluff, diplomacy, and perception, but only to checks related to reptilean creatures inside the borders of Quxnugg while the moon is full... yeeeaah! :smallfurious:

NightbringerGGZ

2015-08-02, 05:19 PM

Gods yes. You gain a +2 bonus to bluff, diplomacy, and perception, but only to checks related to reptilean creatures inside the borders of Quxnugg while the moon is full... yeeeaah! :smallfurious:

Oh! You mean Campain Traits. =)

They're either absolutely horrible or way over powered.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-02, 06:07 PM

I agree with the "some of". The ones that just bump a specific Aid Another action to a +3 bonus should have a red rating.

Also the one that gives you a +1 to the roll to hit DC 10. Yeah that's hard.

Maybe we could start a seminar or something. Rule number 1: Narrow situational bonuses suck and are a waste of everyone's time.

We should invite Paizo.

Still working on the Religion traits?

Haven't gotten there, yet. Racial is my current project, then Regional, then Religion.

Gods yes. You gain a +2 bonus to bluff, diplomacy, and perception, but only to checks related to reptilean creatures inside the borders of Quxnugg while the moon is full... yeeeaah! :smallfurious:

But you get a -1 at all other times, in all other places, with all other creatures. Sounds like a great bonus right?

Oh! You mean Campain Traits. =)

They're either absolutely horrible or way over powered.

Yeah, some of those campaign traits are straight broken. Both directions.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-02, 08:58 PM

Race Traits K-Q are complete as well as the Aid Another rewrite.

stack

2015-08-02, 10:54 PM

I linked this guide in my handbooks. I presume you wont object, but thought it best to ask.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-03, 02:29 AM

No problem at all, though it's far from finished.

Unbodied

2015-08-03, 03:45 AM

We should invite Paizo.
I meant we should hold the seminar for Paizo actually but I wasn't able to find a way to phrase it properly. ;)

TheOneHawk

2015-08-04, 11:45 AM

And Race traits are done. That was a lot of traits, but it's good to have them done.

I'd also like to give a big thank you to everyone who's been reading over this guide as it gets written, pointing out my mistakes both in this thread and on the document itself. I couldn't do this without you, every time I see a comment it makes me want to do this more, tbh, even if it's telling me I ****ed up.

Kurald Galain

2015-08-04, 12:56 PM

TheOneHawk

2015-08-04, 03:12 PM

Well, since you asked :smallbiggrin:

I think you're overvaluing some bonuses too skills. A trait like "add X to your class list and it gets +1" is effectively a +4, which is good (or great in the case of Perception)... but a trait that says "here's two skills, get +1 to each" is really not so great, and I'm having a hard time seeing that as higher than yellow. If a +4 bonus is blue, then a +1 bonus shouldn't also be blue.

Ok, the raw power of those isn't technically as high, but at the same time they're unquestionably better than the ones that add the skill in class if you already have it as a class skill. If it's a particularly potent combination of skills, then it's even better. Say, for example, you're building a Bard and you really want to have a great Diplomacy. Do you take the trait that gives you +1 Diplomacy and Diplomacy in class, which you already have, or the one that gives you +1 Diplomacy and also Knowledge (local) which is an extremely useful skill?

Since you've listed a bunch of Magus traits, I'll add my opinion that +1 pool point (Arc. Revitalization / Malleable Magic) is not really worth a trait, because a Magus isn't particularly short on pool points (for the same reason, Extra Arcane Pool isn't a good feat either). For Blade Bravado, the previous paragraph applies, plus a Magus doesn't have acrobatics or bluff on his class list anyway. $.02

I'll defer to you on this one, you have a deeper understanding of the class than I do.

Finally, regarding Zest for Battle, note that un-barbarian's rage is a morale bonus.

Wicked, noted.

Comments in bold.

Kurald Galain

2015-08-04, 03:57 PM

Say, for example, you're building a Bard and you really want to have a great Diplomacy. Do you take the trait that gives you +1 Diplomacy and Diplomacy in class, which you already have, or the one that gives you +1 Diplomacy and also Knowledge (local) which is an extremely useful skill?

Neither of them.

You've defined blue as "Strong pick in almost any situation, does things that are difficult to get otherwise and is just straight up useful to nearly any build you can imagine." Is this trait a strong pick in almost any situation? Well, no: for a build that maxes out diplomacy, there are actually better picks than this (e.g. a trait that gives +2 to diplomacy). Does it do things that are difficult to get? Not really: you can easily get a +1 to a skill from e.g. orisons or masterwork tools. Is it straight up useful to nearly any build? Again, no, as it's only aimed at a build that maxes out diplomacy.

I'd call this a "Situational trait. Some builds might find this worth selecting, but in general it’s not worth a second glance", really.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-04, 04:52 PM

I can see blue being too high, but they are better than orange, I think. If you want trait bonuses to your skills and already have the ones you want in class, there's some good options for that. Some give bonuses to multiple high power skills as well. I don't think getting a bonus to perception and your choice of knowledge's is orange, though upon consideration I also no longer think it's blue.

Only two I saw that I felt were egregious on a quick skim were Tongue of Many Towns and Seeker of Brightness. Both give bonuses to what I consider high end skills, so I moved both to green. Were there others you noticed? I'll probably find some things that will need their ratings adjusted when I compile everything into lists of alike traits.

Kurald Galain

2015-08-06, 04:18 AM

Only two I saw that I felt were egregious on a quick skim were Tongue of Many Towns and Seeker of Brightness. Both give bonuses to what I consider high end skills, so I moved both to green.
Sounds good :)

Were there others you noticed? I'll probably find some things that will need their ratings adjusted when I compile everything into lists of alike traits.
I didn't notice any others so far. And yes, that's a good approach that will make the guide much clearer.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-07, 06:54 AM

So, looking to start regional traits, I want to include the region, but I also want to have the consistency throughout the guide of using the D20PFSRD links and names, especially since Archives of Nethys doesn't have individual trait pages. Any tips other than just cross reference every trait until I find its equivalent on Archives?

N. Jolly

2015-08-07, 08:12 AM

Hey, it looks like your guide is coming along well, read over it and it looks pretty solid. Mind if I link it to some of my guides, since tricks and traits is a little out of date? Great work you're doing here.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-07, 08:21 AM

You're absolutely welcome to link this anywhere you'd like, though do note that it's not even close to completion as of yet. Glad you're enjoying it.

Second Arrow

2015-08-07, 08:24 AM

Archives of Nethys most definitely has individual pages, just click on the "LINK" option to the right of the trait name.

Also, since you are on Regional traits anyway, you are missing out on one of my favourite traits in replacing the old Heirloom Weapon, namely the Ancestral Weapon (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ancestral%20Weapon) trait. Might be worth including!

TheOneHawk

2015-08-07, 08:33 AM

Huh, didn't notice that link button. Regardless, I think I've found a solution. It's definitely more work intensive than previous sections and will take me a while to burn through but I think the result is worth it from a consistency and clarity standpoint.

Why is that not on D20PFSRD? If there's traits they simply don't list, I'm going to start crying (not really).

N. Jolly

2015-08-07, 08:35 AM

You're absolutely welcome to link this anywhere you'd like, though do note that it's not even close to completion as of yet. Glad you're enjoying it.

Yeah, I figured I'd wait until you think it's complete before adding it, since it's your guide and I wouldn't want to misrepresent your work. It just looks like it's coming along well though, I'm looking forward to seeing it once it's finished.

Second Arrow

2015-08-07, 08:35 AM

I suspect that some of the newer traits are not on the d20pfsrd partially due to the "can't quote golarion-specific" clause that they've got going, and partially because there are bigger things than traits on the horizon. Trust d20 to get most of the major content up first, but AoN is probably a bit more systematic.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-07, 08:42 AM

N. Jolly

2015-08-07, 08:44 AM

I mean, People of the River was released over a year ago.

Ok, so, AoN has every trait, then? I wonder if it's worthwhile for me to go back and check over the entire guide for missing traits. I want this to be complete, though switching everything over to AoN would be a pretty serious commitment at this point. If they have everything, and the SRD does not, however, I'll do it.

AoN is DEFINITELY the place to look for traits, they're a lot more complete, and I know searching through some of my old guides, there were a few things that I could only find there. SRD is nice for big picture stuff, and I lik its organization better, but AoN is definitely the place to go if you're looking for completion, as it feels like the SRD is focused on big picture stuff.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-07, 08:51 AM

I'm looking forward to seeing it once it's finished. Me, too. Finished sounds great.

AoN is DEFINITELY the place to look for traits, they're a lot more complete, and I know searching through some of my old guides, there were a few things that I could only find there. SRD is nice for big picture stuff, and I lik its organization better, but AoN is definitely the place to go if you're looking for completion, as it feels like the SRD is focused on big picture stuff.

I always tend towards the SRD because of how organized it generally is. If it's not complete on traits, though...

I'm going to redo the combat section and see how much is missing. Consider progress paused for now, we'll see how big of an undertaking a rewrite would be and how valuable it would be.

EDIT: Yeah, there's enough missing traits that I need to switch over to AoN full stop, I think. This is going to take some time, luckily I have a week off right now and plenty of time to kill.

Squirrel_Dude

2015-08-07, 10:18 AM

Me, too. Finished sounds great.

I always tend towards the SRD because of how organized it generally is. If it's not complete on traits, though...

I'm going to redo the combat section and see how much is missing. Consider progress paused for now, we'll see how big of an undertaking a rewrite would be and how valuable it would be.

EDIT: Yeah, there's enough missing traits that I need to switch over to AoN full stop, I think. This is going to take some time, luckily I have a week off right now and plenty of time to kill.Thanks for putting in the work.

Unbodied

2015-08-08, 11:58 AM

Thanks for putting in the work.
Same here. This is really useful and Traits on Archives of Nethys often don't show up when I try to search for them and the site is a pain to read through. So gathering their traits in a easy to read guide is a real life saver.

Prime32

2015-08-08, 06:42 PM

Smoke Resistant (Kobold, Red-Scaled): Your vision isn't impaired by non-magical smoke, and you gain a +5 trait bonus on Fortitude saves to avoid coughing and choking because of smoke inhalation. This trait confers no benefits against magically created smoke, such as that produced by pyrotechnics. Probably a fantastic choice for a fireman. Shame you’re building an adventurer.
Smokesticks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Smokestick) are only 20gp, and smoke arrows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrows-smokescreen) are 10gp. If there's 10ft of smoke between you and an opponent, it provides total concealment.

Dog-Sniff-Hate (Goblin): You gain the scent special quality but only against canine creatures, like dogs or wolves, including monstrous hounds such as hell hounds, yeth hounds, and even werewolves. You gain a +2 trait bonus on attack rolls against dogs you can smell. Goblins are hilarious. That said, how many canine’s do you fight in a campaign? You might be able to argue that this lets you smell canine pheremones (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-pheromone).

TheOneHawk

2015-08-08, 06:56 PM

Smokesticks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Smokestick) are only 20gp, and smoke arrows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrows-smokescreen) are 10gp. If there's 10ft of smoke between you and an opponent, it provides total concealment.

That's fair, I still don't think it's a huge deal but it's less useless than I thought.

You might be able to argue that this lets you smell canine pheremones (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-pheromone).

This seems like a bit of a stretch for a relatively minor bonus.

TiaC

2015-08-09, 12:03 AM

That's fair, I still don't think it's a huge deal but it's less useless than I thought.

It's one of the better ways to get a full attack with sneak attack at range.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-09, 02:10 AM

Yeah, after I posted that I thought on it a bit an realized it's actually quite good. I have it listed at green for right now.

Unbodied

2015-08-09, 02:16 AM

Yeah, after I posted that I thought on it a bit an realized it's actually quite good. I have it listed at green for right now.
The colors look good the way they are now btw.

Prime32

2015-08-09, 11:18 AM

This seems like a bit of a stretch for a relatively minor bonus.A typeless, slotless +2 bonus to all attack and damage rolls (even spells) would normally cost 32,000gp. This reduces the cost to 15gp per opponent per encounter (or 5gp if a PC makes the arrows), and the benefit can extend to animal companions and other party members.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-09, 11:30 AM

Ok, sorry, the bonus isn't minor. It's just a pretty big stretch, imo. Pheremone arrows specifically say they smell like 'tasty injured prey'. Dog-Sniff-Hate specifically says you can smell dogs. Canine's in the wild are predators, I believe exclusively.

Unbodied

2015-08-10, 02:53 PM

Bloody stupid forum deleting my bloody posts. :smallfurious:

Recap:

I'm making a Marksman. Not sure which traits to get. Pretty sure about Finding Your Kin if I can get it.

Improvised Defense seems promising if arrows count as improvised weapons when used in melee.

Finish The Fight might be good, or Big Ears (not sure on being adopted by Goblins but good hearing makes sense for a blind character and the Synesthete power let's me "hear" light so arguably the Perception bonus should work on vision based checks)

I might take Scarred by not-Space Pirates.

There was a trait called Poisonous Slayer which seemed promising since it gives +1 on any attack with a bow that is poisoned but I don't have the safe poison ability and blowing a trait on Harvester seemed like a waste for a +1 attack bonus. On the other hand I get Autohypnosis as a class skill so even if I occasionaly get poisoned when applying it to my arrows it shouldn't be a problem. There's no time limit on poisons after you've coated a weapon is there?

Ok, sorry, the bonus isn't minor. It's just a pretty big stretch, imo. Pheremone arrows specifically say they smell like 'tasty injured prey'. Dog-Sniff-Hate specifically says you can smell dogs. Canine's in the wild are predators, I believe exclusively.

Have you added any new traits you want looked at?

TheOneHawk

2015-08-10, 03:25 PM

Unbodied

2015-08-10, 03:46 PM

I'm currently going through and reformatting the whole guide to date and switching over to Archives of Nethys, so there's a couple traits that weren't on the SRD but nothing particularly amazing. Scarred by Space Pirates is now red, because the SRD has inaccurate mechanics for it, the real version is downright terrible. Arrows used in melee are in fact improvised weapons, so that trait would work if you wanted it. There's a lot of other good traits I just haven't gotten to, yet.
But won't most people use the SRD version even if it technically isn't accurate? Maybe make it dual colored to represent the different versions?

Any opinions on Improvised Defense vs Surprise Weapon? The latter gives a +2 trait bonus with improvised weapons. The first option is probably more practical since I can always have an arrow on hand for the AC bonus but the latter makes it easier to use arrows as melee weapons Legolas style so it seems cooler. Also fun for barfights. I'm torn.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-10, 03:52 PM

Unbodied

2015-08-10, 04:46 PM

Optimization wise, the +1 AC is solid since you won't be able to use a shield while you're firing arrows from a bow. How often are you really going to stab people with your arrows? It's pretty much always going to be a better choice to just drop your bow and stab them with a sword.
Good point. So assuming I get Finding Your Kin that's 2 out of 4. Or 3 out of 4 since +2 Initative seems like a solid pick.

Since the Marksman class has a lot of very good Class Skills bur only gets very few skills per level and lacks a Int focus there's probably no point in spending a trait to get extra class skills right? At least when there aren't any skills that I really want.

My Fortitude saves are terrible both from class and dumping Constitution but a high Autohypnosis skill takes care of a lot of Fortitude saves anyway and I'm staying at range so I shouldn't get hit to often should I?

Know of any traits that work really well with archers? Any opinions on the Poisonous Slayer I mentioned earlier?

TheOneHawk

2015-08-10, 05:03 PM

Are you playing Legacy of Fire? Finding Your Kin is a solid selection for that, to be sure.

How do you have four traits? Is your DM being extra nice, or are you taking Extra Traits? I only consider Extra Traits worthwhile if I have a specific plan for those traits.

If you have more class skills than skill points, then you're probably fine. Unless you don't have Perception in class, that's generally important.

If you aren't worried about Fort saves, then don't worry about them. A +1 wouldn't go astray though, to be sure.

If you're going to have your arrows poisoned all the time, Poisonous Slayer is fantastic. The problem with it, though, is that poison in Pathfinder is generally terrible from a cost effectiveness standpoint. It can be optimized into usefulness but that requires a high Int. I'd take Finish the Fight over it, since archers tend to get full attacks more often than anyone else.

Unbodied

2015-08-10, 05:20 PM

Mm. Yeah think I'm going to drop Poisonous Slayer. It seems like to much of a chore, even if I put a rank in Craft Alchemy to make my own poison.

What about the Toxiphillite trait? +2 to confirm crits with bows. If I take Sniper Style I eventually get an ability that increases my crit range. But only by 1 if I already have Improved Critical. Plus the same ability also improves the odds of confirming crits so I'm not sure if there's a point. And its only with bows so even if I wanted to use crossbows with their greater crit range this trait wouldn't do anything.

Are you playing Legacy of Fire? Finding Your Kin is a solid selection for that, to be sure.
We aren't which is why I'm not sure I can get it. Depends on the whims of the GM.

How do you have four traits? Is your DM being extra nice, or are you taking Extra Traits? I only consider Extra Traits worthwhile if I have a specific plan for those traits. You can get two extra traits by taking a Major Drawback if the GM allows it.

In this case though its more like I took an Extreme Drawback. I was inspired by a blind archer character from a cancelled game's concept art so I talked with my GM and got the Blinded condition as my drawback, but in return I got both a bonus feat and bonus traits. Though the bonus feat basically became a feat tax required to make that type of character possible to play anyway which is why the GM allowed it (Unlocked Talent to get Synesthete so that I would actually be able to see in combat).

CGNefarious

2015-08-10, 05:23 PM

On that note, why not take Rough and Ready with Craft: Fletcher (or arrows or whatever it is) so that you always threaten adjacent opponents without penalty?

TheOneHawk

2015-08-10, 05:30 PM

Crit builds don't really work with bows because of their limited crit range. Crossbows are bad.

Rough and Ready with Fletcher combined with Improvised Defense is now officially my favourite trait combo in the game.

Fate's Favoured is, of course, always a good selection as well. Just buy a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier and Luckstone and get +1 to all skills, saves, AC and ability checks from one item. Sure it takes a while to kick in, but the bonus is hilariously strong once it does.

Unbodied

2015-08-10, 06:01 PM

On that note, why not take Rough and Ready with Craft: Fletcher (or arrows or whatever it is) so that you always threaten adjacent opponents without penalty?

Crit builds don't really work with bows because of their limited crit range. Crossbows are bad.

Rough and Ready with Fletcher combined with Improvised Defense is now officially my favourite trait combo in the game.

Fate's Favoured is, of course, always a good selection as well. Just buy a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier and Luckstone and get +1 to all skills, saves, AC and ability checks from one item. Sure it takes a while to kick in, but the bonus is hilariously strong once it does.I thought so. Going with Volley Style then.

Unfortunately I already asked about this and arrows don't count as they're the result of my trade rather than the tools of the trade.

Fate's Favored is good but I already used it with another character and I don't want to reuse the same traits over and over. Call it plan B.

Edit:
How does Psychoportive Talent sound? Take a 5-foot step as a Immediate action by expending psionic focus.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-10, 06:08 PM

Unbodied

2015-08-10, 06:20 PM

Eh, Psychoportive Talent is ok, but my main issue with it is that you're playing an Archer. Sure, the ability to move on other people's turns is freaking great, but it doesn't function if you've already taken a five foot step. Most of the movement an archer is going to make in a turn is five foot steps, because generally speaking you're full attacking every round.
Ah good point. Didn’t notice that pitfall.

Metacreative Talent would be cool for the unlimited ammo thing except it only gives me throwing weapons and also they are utterly terrible. Maybe if I was focused on shuriken or something but for anything else it seems terrible.

Kurald Galain

2015-08-10, 06:39 PM

Scarred by Space Pirates is now red, because the SRD has inaccurate mechanics for it, the real version is downright terrible.
Huh. Yes, that's really pretty bad.

But won't most people use the SRD version even if it technically isn't accurate?
Possibly, but in my view one of the jobs of a Guide is to mitigate inaccuracies, not propagate them.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-10, 06:41 PM

Unbodied

2015-08-10, 06:48 PM

I totally forgot to respond to that, but I completely agree with Kurald on that point. Better worded than I would have said it as well.

As far as traits, have you considered Armour Expert? Armour doesn't interfere with Psionics but you're only proficient in light armour. With that trait you could wear a mithral breastplate at no penalty for a pretty nice boost to AC. Again, it's not available immediately, but it's definitely a solid choice.I think I'm just going to go with Adopted: Finish the Fight for my third Trait. It doesn't fit the background I had planned but it was barebones anyway. Plus this seems like a much more interesting backstory than my initial plan, especially when combined with the On Guard trait.

"You're at the bottom of the pecking order, so when you challenge that order, your victory must be absolute."

Yup. That sounds like an adopted blind "human" living with a bunch of orcs allright. And constantly being on guard seems like the natural result of being at the bottom of the pecking order in a orc tribe. As does learning to defend yourself with improvised weapons when I think about it. This is coming together pretty well. Add the one orc who wasn’t an a-hole, giving protection against the ones who were and providing encouragement with the attempts to master an art that seems completely out of reach due to the PC's handicap and we have a solid backstory. :)

Armor Expert is nice but I already have an idea for what the character should look like and Mithral Breastplates don't fit that image. Plus I've kind of latched on to the idea of an Elan struggling to survive among a horde of orcs despite being blind already.

Thanks for all the help though. :)

TheOneHawk

2015-08-10, 06:51 PM

No problem at all. Glad to see you've got something coming together.

As a side point, technically you could get away with Adopted on one of the half races while still being raised by humans, because they're also half human. They don't really have their own people, so it works.

Unbodied

2015-08-11, 01:20 AM

Unbodied

2015-08-12, 12:03 PM

Question: Like a lot of races the Forgeborn get a +1 Natural Armor bonus. However they have an alternate Racial Ability that instead decreases Armor Check penalties by 1. As a Cryptic I only get proficiency with light armor. However my build is focused around strength so I don't really need armor with a high cap on Dexterity to AC. Would it be a good idea to grab the armor penalty reduction from race and another armor penalty reduction with a trait and then deck myself out in Mithral Hellknight Plate or Mithral Field Plate?

TheOneHawk

2015-08-12, 12:07 PM

Yes. That would be a good idea.

Dondasch

2015-08-12, 12:14 PM

TheOneHawk

2015-08-12, 12:20 PM

You probably won't like hearing this, but Archives of Nethys is missing some traits: faction traits for factions no longer active in PFS.
I discovered this trying to find the Hunter's Eye trait (grants proficiency with the longbow or shortbow and lets you ignore the range penalty for the second range increment with the chosen bow), from the Andoran faction.

Yeah, I've already run into ten or so traits that were on PFSRD but not AoN. I'm almost done going through my current list, and from now on I'll consult both AoN and the SRD to try and get every trait that exists. If it's not on the SRD or AoN, please let me know where I can find it.

Dondasch

2015-08-12, 12:26 PM

Yeah, I've already run into ten or so traits that were on PFSRD but not AoN. I'm almost done going through my current list, and from now on I'll consult both AoN and the SRD to try and get every trait that exists. If it's not on the SRD or AoN, please let me know where I can find it.

Hmm, Google has turned up the five Andoran faction traits (http://chargen.proboards.com/thread/30/pathfinder-society-traits), though it looks like Hunter's Eye is the only worthwhile one. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the other factions of the time were, nor do I have the appropriate PFSGtOP (Hunter's Eye used to be on Archives of Nethys, so I just looked it up there).

TheOneHawk

2015-08-12, 12:31 PM

So, they aren't available online? I might have to just not include them, then, if I can't get legal, free access to them with a link.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-12, 05:40 PM

And the entire guide is switched over to linking to AoN, and all traits available there that were unavailable on the SRD have been added. There's a handful of traits that are on the SRD and not AoN which is annoying, but whatever. I'll just have to cross reference after I finish each section.

Anyways, I can now get back to making progress on the guide. Won't be doing any more today, though. It's all getting blurry.

Ninjaxenomorph

2015-08-12, 05:59 PM

Prime32

2015-08-12, 07:13 PM

So, they aren't available online? I might have to just not include them, then, if I can't get legal, free access to them with a link.They're all OGL content surely? There shouldn't be any issue with including them.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-12, 11:39 PM

Are you going to have Flaws up soon? Some of them, particularly the ones in Champions of Corruption, are really good to take, but what I'm looking for in a guide to them are ones that are really bad. A lot will depend on the individual character's backstory for how bad they are.

Since you asked, I'll do them next. Tomorrow is my fly day so I probably won't get a particularly large amount done. Give me a couple days.

They're all OGL content surely? There shouldn't be any issue with including them.

Legally, there shouldn't be. That said, I'd really like them to be on a website to link to.

JDL

2015-08-13, 12:12 AM

Just a quick note: you'll want to review the rating on the Family Trade trait.

Family Trade (Family): Choose one skill. All family members with this trait must choose the same skill and it is always a class skill for you. When you are within 60 feet of a family member with this trait, you gain a +2 trait bonus on checks with this skill.

The key point here is that this is one of the few ways to get Perception as a class skill through use of a trait. Note that the wording says "it is always a class skill for you." You always benefit from the +3 bonus for having skill ranks in Perception. The +2 bonus when you're close to your family member is just gravy, but it's close enough that you'll probably always get the bonus in most adventure situations. I'd actually recommend this one is a purple, conditional on it being Perception that you're selecting as the skill. Alternatively this is just a "select your own class skill" trait, which merits the green rating.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-13, 12:20 AM

There's several traits that give perception in class, most or all of which give a non conditional bonus on top. A quick look through the PFRSD trait filter gives me 8, not including the one you mentioned.

Dondasch

2015-08-13, 12:29 AM

A better argument would be that it gives Fly as a class skill without switching it to Wisdom and being a Religion trait.

JDL

2015-08-13, 12:34 AM

TheOneHawk

2015-08-13, 12:39 AM

2 races, 2 regions a religion and a social. That's what I'd consider very available. The religion is a very common god to worship as well, Abadar, and the social has literally no requirements. The reason I consider it worse than those traits is that the extra bonus is conditional. Just like how a +2 vs Charms and Compulsions isn't as good as a +1 vs Will, a +2 that can be taken away from you is worse than a +1 that can't.

Kurald Galain

2015-08-13, 12:57 AM

I'd actually recommend this one is a purple, conditional on it being Perception that you're selecting as the skill. Alternatively this is just a "select your own class skill" trait, which merits the green rating.
It's a good trait, but I don't see how adding one skill to your class list qualifies as a game changer, considering how half of all traits printed add a skill to your class list :smallamused:

TheOneHawk

2015-08-13, 12:59 AM

It's a good trait, but I don't see how adding one skill to your class list qualifies as a game changer, considering how half of all traits printed add a skill to your class list :smallamused:

This. Purple is pretty freaking exclusive in this guide. There's a total of 3 traits at that level so far and I don't know of any others off the top of my head that will for sure be joining them.

Thisguy_

2015-08-13, 01:01 AM

Family Trade (Family): Choose one skill. All family members with this trait must choose the same skill and it is always a class skill for you. When you are within 60 feet of a family member with this trait, you gain a +2 trait bonus on checks with this skill.

MAN. If that could stack... imagine a family who all trained together as ninja assassins. To be granted a stacking stealth bonus... 16 of you roll around in nigh broad daylight conditions unspotted due to unbelievable hide checks and strewn-about, barely human-sized cover...

Unbodied

2015-08-13, 02:15 AM

MAN. If that could stack... imagine a family who all trained together as ninja assassins. To be granted a stacking stealth bonus... 16 of you roll around in nigh broad daylight conditions unspotted due to unbelievable hide checks and strewn-about, barely human-sized cover...
Aid Another?

Second Arrow

2015-08-13, 05:19 AM

Traits that give Perception as a class skill:

Conspiracy Hunter (Council of Thieves) - Campaign specific trait
Friend of the Family (Jade Regent) - Campaign specific trait
Looking for Work (Second Darkness) - Campaign specific trait
Balloon Headed (Goblin) - Goblin specific trait
Militant Merchant (Dwarf) - Dwarf specific trait
Dim Seer - Regional trait
Veteran Jungle Guide - Regional trait
Eyes and Ears of the City - Religion trait
Seeker - Social trait

Of the above list, Seeker is the easiest to qualify for, followed by Dim Seer or Veteran Jungle Guide, provided you come from the appropriate region. Dim Seer gives the same +2 bonus but only in dim light, or the flat +1 bonus to Perception from Seeker or Veteran Jungle Guide. The others are too restrictive to bother with. Personally I see the option to get a +2 bonus to your Perception score worth the rating if you get another PC (or even better a Cohort) as a family member.

Missing out on at least one that I can see, which is arguably the best one I've found yet:
Tomb Raider (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Tomb%20Raider) (Faction) - gives +1 to Perception & Knowledge (Dungeoneering), and one of them is a class skill (your choice)

However, I'd also argue that gaining Perception as a class skill has become a bit of a lesser use for a trait after Heroes of the Wild, as the alternate racial traits for the Core races frequently lets you gain Perception in class simply from being that race. While it might not be that relevant for a race-agnostic guide (and gaining Perception in class is wildly useful regardless of source) it might be of note.

Thisguy_

2015-08-13, 09:53 PM

Aid Another?

They wouldn't all be able to aid another one another while also making Hide checks. Would they?

Kurald Galain

2015-08-14, 01:36 PM

And the entire guide is switched over to linking to AoN, and all traits available there that were unavailable on the SRD have been added.

Sounds good! However, I've been reading section-by-section as you added them, and revision history isn't enabled on this document. Would you mind posting a diff of traits on AON but not SRD?

Mithril Leaf

2015-08-14, 01:48 PM

Hellknight Armor is already Masterwork, which shouldn't stack with Mithral, thus removing some (a little bit) of the value of Armor Expert.

Unbodied

2015-08-14, 02:56 PM

Hellknight Armor is already Masterwork, which shouldn't stack with Mithral, thus removing some (a little bit) of the value of Armor Expert.
Yup. Made that mistake myself before people corrected me. For comparison

These distinctive suits of armor are a special type of masterwork full plate that, when worn by a character with levels in the Hell Knight Commander prestige class, grants additional effects.

Benefit: Field plate is effectively the same as masterwork banded mail. You can purchase masterwork field plate.The reason Hellknight is so expensive is presumably because it grants special benefits to the Hellknight class.

Mithril Leaf

2015-08-14, 03:42 PM

Yup. Made that mistake myself before people corrected me. For comparison

The reason Hellknight is so expensive is presumably because it grants special benefits to the Hellknight class.

You mean that thread a few days ago where I corrected you? :smallwink:

Unbodied

2015-08-14, 05:04 PM

You mean that thread a few days ago where I corrected you? :smallwink:
That's the one. In my defense they could have had written something like Hellknight Plate (masterwork) to make it more clear that its already Masterwork.

Currently I'm thinking of getting mithral Fullplate with a Comfort enchantment, taking the Armor Master trait (same bonus as Expert but fits the character better) and researching the Graft Armor power which not only reduces the ACP down to zero but also increases the maximum dexterity bonus by 1.

Mithril Leaf

2015-08-14, 05:07 PM

That's the one. In my defense they could have had written something like Hellknight Plate (masterwork) to make it more clear that its already Masterwork.

Currently I'm thinking of getting mithral Fullplate with a Comfort enchantment, taking the Armor Master trait (same bonus as Expert but fits the character better) and researching the Graft Armor power which not only reduces the ACP down to zero but also increases the maximum dexterity bonus by 1.

There's a +2 armor bonus in Ultimate Psionics that grants more or less the same bonus as Graft Armor, but I forget it's name and it's off topic.

So how 'bout that Finding Haleen eh?

TheOneHawk

2015-08-14, 05:17 PM

Sounds good! However, I've been reading section-by-section as you added them, and revision history isn't enabled on this document. Would you mind posting a diff of traits on AON but not SRD?

How do I enable revision history? I don't particularly want to go through the whole list again and find each one that was AoN only, though I will if that's the only way you guys can see.

Yup. Made that mistake myself before people corrected me. For comparison

The reason Hellknight is so expensive is presumably because it grants special benefits to the Hellknight class.

I missed it being masterwork at least 3 times reading it. Clarity is hard, Paizo! Ok, I'll remove that.

Unbodied

2015-08-14, 05:33 PM

There's a +2 armor bonus in Ultimate Psionics that grants more or less the same bonus as Graft Armor, but I forget it's name and it's off topic.

So how 'bout that Finding Haleen eh?
Then how do I send private messages? ;)

137beth

2015-08-14, 11:01 PM

Then how do I send private messages? ;)

Hold your mouse over someone's name. A 'private message' button should show up.

Kurald Galain

2015-08-15, 02:51 AM

How do I enable revision history?

I believe you (as the author) should be able to see document history. Please don't spend a lot of time here on my behalf, but if you could just grab two or three changesets from the day you added those, and copy/paste them (e.g. to pastebin) that'd be great.

Unbodied

2015-08-15, 04:02 AM

Hold your mouse over someone's name. A 'private message' button should show up.

Does that work on phones? It doesn't seem to work on phones.

TiaC

2015-08-15, 04:24 AM

Does that work on phones? It doesn't seem to work on phones.

Ok then, look at at their user page's URL. Right before their name is a string of numbers, for example, on mine it's 32140.

Enter the following with those numbers in place of the ####: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/private.php?do=newpm&u=####

Kurald Galain

2015-08-15, 11:41 AM

Ok, traits in current list that aren't in the August 9 version, based on a quick diff:
So that's basically traits on AON that are not on d20pfsrd,

Absalom Bouncer: When you make an attack that deals nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, you gain a +1 bonus on your damage
roll. Nonlethal doesn’t come up often enough for me to really want this. If you plan on making a character that doesn’t want t
o kill people, this is ok, but there’s traits that just give a straight +! to unarmed damage.

Failed Aspirant: Choose a single combat maneuver. Once per day, you can perform that combat maneuver without provoking an attac
k of opportunity, and you gain a +2 bonus on that attempt. Not terrible, but I have a couple problems with this. For one, it on
ly applies to one combat maneuver, and only once per day. If you’re going to be using a maneuver regularly, you’ll probably spe
nd some feats on it and use it more than once per day. This won’t come up often enough on a build that doesn’t require it and w
ill come up too often on a build that does.

Hellknight Devotion: Once per day as a swift action, you can empower the next single melee attack you make to be treated as law
ful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Not enough of a bonus for once a day.

Lastwall Defender: You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack and damage rolls against undead creatures that you have personally ident
ified using the Knowledge (religion) skill. If you’re going to be fighting a lot of undead and have decent ranks in Knowledge (
religion) this is quite solid. Only worthwhile in an undead focused campaign, though. Carrion Crown, perhaps?

Splash Attack: As long as you are standing in or adjacent to water, or holding at least a pint of liquid (including insoluble l
iquids like oil or alchemist’s fire), you can perform a dirty trick combat maneuver to blind a foe within reach without provoki
ng an attack of opportunity. If you select the Improved Dirty Trick feat, you gain a +2 trait bonus on dirty trick combat maneu
vers to blind foes as long as you are standing in or adjacent to water or holding a pint of liquid. If you want to use Dirty Tr
ick to blind regularly, this is pretty good. There’s far better available, though, such as traits that will just give you a +2
with no conditions.

Abject Belief: You gain a +2 trait bonus on Will saving throws against fear effects. There’s a lot of traits like this. None of
them are exactly terrible, but they’re all pretty weak.

Born Free: Once per day, after you roll a saving throw against a compulsion effect, you can choose to roll again as an immediat
e action before the result of the saving throw is announced. You must keep the new roll, even if it is worse. If this wasn’t li
mited to just compulsions, it would be great. Compulsions suck and all, but I don’t like this for the same reason as the +2 sav
e versions.

Bound by Honour: Once per day, if a mind-affecting effect would compel you to take an action that would cause you to lose Honou
r Points (see page 8), you may make a new saving throw against the original DC to end the effect. Narrow and conditional. Pass.

Crisis of Faith: You gain a +1 trait bonus on saving throws against illusions. You may replace any other faith trait with the C
risis of Faith trait whenever you gain a level. This replacement is permanent until you receive atonement. This is kind of cool
, in that it replaces another trait. Shame the mechanics of it are absolute trash.

Devout Visionary: You gain a +1 trait bonus on Will saving throws against spells and effects that grant the confused or dazed c
ondition. Once per day as a full-round action, you may grant an adjacent ally a new Will saving throw to end an effect that gra
nts the confused or dazed condition. Hazed and Confused is an excellent ice cream. Dazed and Confused aren’t common or bad enou
gh to use a trait on avoiding. Pass.

Divine Denier: Once per day when you are affected by a divine spell, you may reduce that spell’s duration to half (minimum 1 ro
und) for you alone. On the one hand, this could really help you against a nasty divine spell. On the other, you probably won’t
be fighting divine casters every day and on days you do you’ll likely eat more than one nasty spell from them. Still, could be
handy to be sure.

Monastic: Once per day as a swift action, you gain a +1 trait bonus to Armor Class as long as you are wearing no armor, not usi
ng a shield, carrying a light load, and have nothing in your hands. This bonus lasts for 1 minute. This is so absurdly limited
for a pretty weak bonus. Four conditions and 1 round/day. Freaking awful.

Nature Worshipper: You gain a +1 trait bonus on saving throws against death effects and effects that use negative energy, such
as energy drain and inflict spells. Narrow and minor. Just bad.

Priest-Blessed: Three times per day when you are the target of a harmless divine spell, you may increase its caster level by 1
for purposes of its effect on you alone. Three times per day kills this for me. Sure, you get buffed a bit better by the Cleric
, but I don’t really think that’s worth a trait.

Proxy of Many: You gain a +2 trait bonus on Diplomacy checks made to request a favor from a creature that has not performed a f
avor for you in the past week. This bonus increases to +4 if you have performed a favor for that creature since it last did a f
avor for you. Too narrow to bother with.

Religious Reformer: You gain a +2 trait bonus on Knowledge (religion) checks that pertain to your own religion or spiritual pra
ctice, and you gain a +2 trait bonus on saving throws against spells cast by others who worship your god or adhere to your phil
osophy. Narrow traits aren’t good.

River Acumen: You gain a +2 trait bonus on Swim checks in rivers or streams, and a +2 trait bonus on Survival checks to forage
for food in or near a river or stream. This is terrible. Narrow bonuses to extremely rare situations.

Self-Actualization: Once per day, when you take 20 on a roll or check, you can complete the action in only five times the norma
l amount of time for that action, rather than 20 times the normal amount. Holy useless. You take 20 when you aren’t worried ***
ut how long it’s going to take. Doing it faster will come up approximately never.

Totemist: Once per day, you may call upon your totem’s wisdom as a standard action. You gain the benefits of guidance, except t
hat the granted competence bonus is equal to half your character level (minimum +1). This is a supernatural ability. It scales
pretty well, so it’s definitely better than Guidance. Once per day and using a standard action is pretty painful, though.

Traditionalist: You gain a +1 trait bonus on Knowledge (history) and Knowledge (local) checks, and one of those skills (your ch
oice) becomes a class skill for you. This is good. Local is the choice, for sure.

Wendifa Apprentice: You can use daze as a spell-like ability once per day, using your character level as your caster level (min
imum 1). The save DC of this effect is Charisma-based. The dazed individual looks ashen and deathly for the duration of the eff
ect. A cantrip trait, so already pretty meh. Daze scales horribly, as well, so this is pretty much 100% trash.

Zealot’s Bearing: You gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks when dealing with adherents of your faith or philosoph
y, but a –1 penalty on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks when dealing with anyone else. Good bonus to a small percentage of the p
opulation, penalty with everyone else. Terrible.

Outer Dragon Blood: The blood of outer dragons courses through your veins, and you’ve inherited a portion of their magic. You g
ain Draconic as a bonus language. In addition, if you are a sorcerer with the draconic bloodline, you can select one of the out
er dragon types for your bloodline powers; this affects your resistances and the type of energy damage dealt by a number of you
r abilities. Meh, there’s better traits to get a language and unless you really want an outer dragon for your bloodline this is
pretty weak. Even if you do want an outer dragon, you should be able to get it without a trait if you ask your DM nicely, sinc
e they’re no stronger than the other bloodlines.

Sotto Voce: You may cast sotto voce as a spell-like ability three times per day as a spell-like ability. This spell-like abilit
y is cast at your highest caster level; if you have no caster level, it functions at CL 1st. Sotto Voce is an awful spell. Will
save vs Shaken for one round is very mediocre already. Add in the limit of 4 HD and you have a complete waste of space.

Tar-Baphon’s Whisper: You may cast sotto voce as a spell-like ability three times per day as a spell-like ability. This spell-l
ike ability is cast at your highest caster level; if you have no caster level, it functions at CL 1st. Sotto Voce is an awful s
pell. Will save vs Shaken for one round is very mediocre already. Add in the limit of 4 HD and you have a complete waste of spa
ce.

Amazingly Ugly (Orc or Half-Orc): You receive a +1 trait bonus on Intimidate skill checks, and it becomes a class skill. Intimi
date is good, in class is good. Blue for the same reason as a dozen other traits just like it.

Arcane Student (Human): You gain a +1 trait bonus on Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks, and you may make these checks un
trained. I think Paizo has grossly overestimated the value of making checks untrained. It’s not really all that good unless you
have a serious bonus to it from somewhere, or you’re looking for super common information.

Azlanti Fanatic (Human): You gain a +1 trait bonus to Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (history) checks. One of these skills (y
our choice) is always a class skill for you. Much better. Arcana is the choice here, if you need Arcana in class this is absolu
tely fantastic. The bonus on history is pretty minor but might come in handy, who knows.

Azlanti Inheritor (Gillman): Whenever you use the aid another action to aid an adjacent ally, increase the bonus you grant your
ally by 1. This is a trait bonus. This works on every kind of Aid Another, and it stacks with classes that grant you a better
Aid Another bonus, unlike Helpful. Solid choice in a build centred upon it.

Beast Rider (Orc or Half-Orc): You gain a +2 trait bonus on Ride checks, but should you ever be forcibly dismounted in combat,
your mount attacks you to the best of its ability. Minor bonus with a potentially major penalty. No thanks.

Bekyar Slave Maestro (Human): You gain a +2 trait bonus on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks against anyone you have held captive
for at least 24 hours. Nice bonuses, but far too narrow.

Big Mouth (Orc or Half-Orc): You gain a +1 trait bonus on all Bluff, Intimidate, and Perform (oratory) checks made against orcs
. Narrow.

Blood Algorithm (Android): You gain a +2 trait bonus on saving throws against spells with the pain descriptor. Additionally, on
ce per day when you are healed by a spell that targets constructs (such as a make whole spell), you heal 1 extra hit point per
level of the spell. Narrow, minor. Nothing to see here, move along.

Brute (Orc or Half-Orc): Whenever you score a critical threat, you add (but not multiply, in the case of a confirmed critical h
it) an amount of damage equal to your weapon’s critical modifier. Not terrible on a crit build, but it’s not all that great. Vi
rtually every crit build I know of uses a x2 modifier weapon with a big range, because it’s mathematically more damage overall.
This will add 2 damage to one in four attacks that’s a threat, so half a damage per attack, and that’s only once you have Keen
or an equivalent. There’s better damage traits that don’t require investment to work.

Calculated Risk (Vampire): Once per day, you may voluntarily fail a saving throw against a harmful spell or effect. After using
this ability, for the next minute you may add a +4 trait bonus on one saving throw, after which the bonus is expended. You may
use this bonus on an additional saving throw against the spell or effect you voluntarily failed (such as a recurring poison sa
ve or a follow-up save against hold person). If you do not use this bonus within 1 minute, it is lost. This is kind of cool, li
ke you’re gathering your strength by failing now to succeed later. It’s only 1/day and it’s actual value is questionable, thoug
h.

Child of Two People’s (Half-Elf, Half-Orc or Human): Your parents come from two visibly different cultures that maintain distin
ct identities regardless of their physical proximity (such as Tians and Ulfen). The tug of conflicting expectations has strengt
hened your sense of individuality and given you a gift for languages. You receive a +2 trait bonus on Will saves against charm
and compulsion effects, and you automatically know the racial or ethnic languages of both your parents. Narrow bonuses. Languag
es are handy, but ethnic ones rarely come up. Charm and Compulsions suck, but I’d rather have a flat bonus against Will.

Deadeye (Orc or Half-Orc): You receive a +2 trait bonus on all Perception checks involving sight. Most Perception checks are go
ing to involve sight. Solid choice if you have it in class already and want more of a bonus.

Deathtouched (Bloodline): You gain either a +1 trait bonus on Fortitude saving throws or a +2 trait bonus on saving throws agai
nst mind-affecting effects (your choice). Two traits in one! Only one of them is good, though. +1 Fortitude is always good. Nar
row +2 much less good.

Demented Inventor (Orc or Half-Orc): You gain a +2 trait bonus on Craft (weapons) checks, and it becomes a class skill. The bon
us is substantial, but Craft (weapons) isn’t exactly a worldbeater skill and Craft is a class skill for every single class anyw
ays.

Destined Pioneer (Human): Select a terrain from the ranger’s list of favored terrains. Once selected, this choice cannot be cha
nged. Once per day while in the selected terrain, you may move across nonmagical difficult terrain as though it were not diffic
ult terrain until the end of your turn. This is freaking awful. Conditional, limited, narrow and minor.

Dirty Fighter (Orc or Half-Orc): You receive a +3 trait bonus on all attempts to feint in combat using your Bluff skill. Feinti
ng is generally suboptimal, but if you want to build a feinting character this is certainly a strong selection.

Divine the Mystery (Human): You gain a +2 trait bonus on Knowledge (engineering) checks to identify creatures with the robot su
btype and relics of Numerian technology. When using Bluff to feint against an intelligent construct, you do not take a penalty
for feinting against a non-humanoid. Ridiculously narrow, I can’t see this coming up often enough to care about.

Ekujae Reflexes (Half-Elf): You gain a +2 trait bonus on initiative checks. Excellent. Initiative bonuses are great.

Fanatic (Human): You gain a +1 trait bonus to Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (history) checks. One of these skills (your choi
ce) is always a class skill for you. Much better. Arcana is the choice here, if you need Arcana in class this is absolutely fan
tastic. The bonus on history is pretty minor but might come in handy, who knows.

Fungal Brewing (Dwarf): You gain a +2 trait bonus on Craft checks to create alchemical items, and can create nonmagical alchemi
cal materials in 20% less time than normal. Narrow, minor bonuses.

Glint-Tongued (Human): You have a gift for poetic turns of phrase and vicious streams of insults. You gain a +1 trait bonus on
Charisma-based skill checks made to impress or persuade other Ulfen (or, at the GM’s option, other poetically-minded people), a
nd a +2 trait bonus on Intimidate checks. The flat +2 to Intimidate is what you want this for, if the other bonus comes up at a
ll that’s just gravy.

Honour-Driven (Human): You gain a +1 trait bonus on Sense Motive checks, and Sense Motive is always a class skill for you. Fant
astic. You don’t want to get lied to, so getting Sense Motive in class is a big deal.

In Tune With Language (Vampire): Your keen ear for language grants you a +2 trait bonus on skill checks when decoding secret me
ssages or finding hidden meaning in overheard conversations. Far too narrow to care about.

Industrious (Gnome): You are helpful and hardworking. When you successfully use the aid another action to aid an ally’s Craft o
r Profession check, that character gains an additional +1 trait bonus on the check (in addition to the +2 bonus normally grante
d for successfully aiding another). If you have a racial bonus on that skill, your ally gains a +2 trait bonus instead. Aid ano
ther has its uses. This is not one of them. Skip.

Inheritor (Gillman): Whenever you use the aid another action to aid an adjacent ally, increase the bonus you grant your ally by
1. This is a trait bonus. This works on every kind of Aid Another, and it stacks with classes that grant you a better Aid Anot
her bonus, unlike Helpful. Solid choice in a build centred upon it.

Insular (Dwarf): You gain a +2 trait bonus on Sense Motive checks, and Sense Motive is always a class skill for you, but you ta
ke a –1 penalty on Diplomacy checks with non-dwarves. Normally I hate penalties, but if you’re a dwarf you’re almost certainly
not the party face due to the Charisma penalty. As such, you probably won’t be making Diplomacy checks very often, but you do h
ave a bonus to Wisdom and this can give you a whopping +5 to Sense Motive if you need it in class. Fantastic trait.

Irritable Diplomat (Half-Orc): Once per day, you may choose to gain a +5 trait bonus on any Diplomacy check, but if it fails, y
ou take a –2 penalty on all Charisma-based checks for the next 10 minutes. +5 is a pretty big bonus, but it comes with a penalt
y and is only 1/day.

Jadwiga Scion (Human): You gain a +1 trait bonus on Intimidate checks, and Intimidate is always a class skill for you. In addit
ion, you gain a +1 trait bonus on Knowledge (nobility) checks related to the Irrisen aristocracy. Intimidate is nice, that’s wh
y you want this trait. if the narrow nobility bonus ever comes up just take it as a free bonus.

Lapsed Faith (Elf): Once per day you may cast cure minor wounds as a spell-like ability at caster level 1. The save DC is Wisdo
m-based. Considering CMW isn’t actually a spell in Pathfinder, this is even more terrible than most cantrip traits! Really, tho
ugh, healing 1 HP per day is crap. Forever.

Mindlessly Cruel (Orc or Half-Orc): Whenever you have a morale bonus on weapon attack rolls, you also receive a +1 trait bonus
on weapon damage rolls. If you have a way of getting regular morale bonuses, such as a party Bard or an Unchained Barbarian ra
ge, this is a pretty solid selection.

Obscure Traditions (Elf): Any creature attempting to make a Knowledge check about your people, a Sense Motive check to determin
e whether you are lying, or a Survival check to track you takes a –2 penalty on the check. Additionally, any character or creat
ure that normally gains a bonus on attack or damage rolls against elves (such as a ranger’s favored enemy ability) has such a b
onus reduced by 1 (minimum 0). This is interesting. Probably really good on a character with a high bluff, since it basically a
dds +2 to your roll and stacks with any actual bonuses to your Bluff. It’s an odd assortment of bonuses that mostly won’t come
up, but when they do they’re decent enough to matter. Not a bad selection.

Pragmatic Polytheist (Human): You gain a +1 trait bonus on Knowledge (religion) checks and can make Knowledge (religion) checks
as if trained. Once per day, you can cast resistance on yourself as a spell-like ability cast at your highest caster level (CL
1st if you have no caster level). A one/day cantrip and a minor bonus to a skill. Not very good.

Proud Progenitor (Vampire): You gain a +1 trait bonus on damage rolls against creatures you have seen attack or harm any of you
r vampire spawn. Too narrow to bother with by far.

Rage of Storms (Orc or Half-Orc): Once per day, a creature you summon creature can have the ferocity ability. This basically ad
ds a creature’s Constitution to its health as far as tanking damage for you goes. Having your summons last longer on the field
is pretty handy, even if it’s only 1/day.

Rapid Drain (Vampire): When you use your blood drain ability, you gain 7 temporary hit points instead of 5. Temporary HP is pre
tty lame, getting an extra 2 isn’t generally worthwhile.

Self-Aware (Vampire): You gain a +1 trait bonus on all Sense Motive checks, and Sense Motive becomes a class skill for you. Sen
se Motive is fantastic, great trait.

Shoanti Spirit-Singer (Human): Once per day, you can act in the surprise round even if you aren’t aware of your attackers; you
can use this action only to start a bardic song or raging song, and you’re still considered flat-footed until you act in the fi
rst normal round of combat. While it limits what you can do in the surprise round, both options are things that you probably wa
nt to do in the first round anyways. Pretty decent, though I wish it weren’t 1/day.

Shoanti Steed (Human): You begin play with a combat trained light horse. While riding this horse bareback, you are treated as t
hough you were riding it with a riding saddle (placing any actual saddle upon the horse negates this benefit). The horse can fe
nd for itself outside of settlements in all but the most hostile environments. If whistled for outside of a community, the hors
e typically arrives within 1d6 minutes. If your horse is slain, you may receive a new horse by returning to your clan and perfo
rming a vigil for its spirit (a rite that costs 100 gp in rare herbs and incense). A combat trained light horse costs 110 gold
and a riding saddle costs 10. While you don’t have to feed or lodge it, which is convenient, this is basically a disguised mone
y trait and it doesn’t give very much.

Shoanti Tattoo (Human): You gain a +1 trait bonus on saving throws against fear effects. Additionally, you are proficient with
earth breakers, klars, and Shoanti bolas. The proficiencies are what this is useful for. If you need one of these proficiencies
, this is probably the best way to get it.

Snowblooded (Elf): You gain a +4 trait bonus on Fortitude saving throws made to avoid nonlethal damage from cold environments,
and gain a +1 trait bonus on saving throws against spells with the cold descriptor. Whoo narrow bonuses.

Snowstepper (Gnome): You ignore difficult terrain caused by snow, and it costs you only 2 squares of movement to enter a square
covered in heavy snow, rather than 4 squares of movement. This benefit only applies when you are not carrying a medium or heav
ier load. Narrow and conditional. Useful when it comes up, but how often is it really going to?

Spirit Lodge Dreamer (Human): You gain a +1 trait bonus on saves against illusions, and reduce any miss chance you would take f
rom concealment by 10%. The bonus against illusions is mostly superfluous, but reducing miss chance by 10% in all circumstances
is pretty good. Miss chance sucks.

Storied Scars (Human): You gain a +1 trait bonus on Diplomacy checks made to interact with other Kellids, and a +1 trait bonus
on Intimidate checks when dealing with non-Kellid peoples. Narrow, minor and conditional. Pass.

Stubborn (Vampire): You gain a +2 trait bonus on saving throws against attempts to control you, such as command undead,halt und
ead, or channeled energy to turn or control undead. These are definitely things to be afraid of if you’re undead, but even stil
l I don’t think the narrow bonuses are important enough.

Student of Nantambu: You gain a +1 trait bonus on Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks, and you may make these checks untra
ined. I think Paizo has grossly overestimated the value of making checks untrained. It’s not really all that good unless you ha
ve a serious bonus to it from somewhere, or you’re looking for super common information.

Tattooed Mystic (Human): You gain a +1 trait bonus on saving throws against charm and compulsion effects. Additionally, you are
proficient with bladed scarves and starknives. Cheapest way to get proficiency in those weapons if that’s something you want.
Other than that, very meh.

Tribal (Orc or Half-Orc): Within 60 feet of a tribal standard, you gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls and Will saves against
fear effects, as if you were the recipient of a bless spell. If you have a way of constantly being in range of such a standard
, such as being a Bannerman Warlord, this is very good. If you can’t ensure the banner, it’s not worthwhile.

Unbreakable Hate (Orc or Half-Orc): You receive a +2 trait bonus on all concentration checks. Very solid choice for the same re
ason as the other traits that do exactly this.

Varisian Tattoo (Human): You gain a +1 trait bonus on saving throws against charm and compulsion effects. Additionally, you are
proficient with bladed scarves and starknives. Cheapest way to get proficiency in those weapons if that’s something you want.
Other than that, very meh.

Varki Landspeaker (Human): You gain a +1 trait bonus on Survival checks in arctic or cold terrain. In addition, while in such t
errain, you may query the spirits of the land once per day to gain a +5 trait bonus on a single skill check to follow tracks, f
orage, or find shelter. Narrow bonus and a limited bonus to a few mediocre things. Pass.

Wary of Danger (Human): You gain a +2 trait bonus on initiative checks. Great for the same reason as all the others.

Wasteland Hunter (Human): Whenever you throw a club, shortspear, spear, or javelin, reduce the penalty for throwing the weapon
beyond its initial range increment by 2 (to a minimum penalty of 0). Handy for long range throwing, if throwing one of these we
apons is the focus of your build this is really good. If you’ll only be throwing them occasionally, this isn’t worthwhile.

Weatherworn (Vampire): You gain a +2 trait bonus against the effects of spells that create wind or move air, such as gust of wi
nd. You treat natural weather conditions as one step weaker. These abilities also apply when you are in gaseous form. Narrow. M
eh.

...out of which I observe that most of them are pretty lacklustre. But the Tribal trait does combine nicely with the Flagbearer feat.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-15, 05:52 PM

Thanks for doing that, Kurald.

Yeah, most of them are crap, or are just repeats of other good traits. There aren't enough unique, strong traits. Most interesting traits are bad, which is kinda sad.

ghanjrho

2015-08-15, 07:07 PM

Hellknight Armor is already Masterwork, which shouldn't stack with Mithral, thus removing some (a little bit) of the value of Armor Expert.

Fortunately, Field Plate has the same ACP as mwk Full Plate without being mwk itself.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-15, 07:24 PM

Two less AC, though.

Kurald Galain

2015-08-17, 06:28 AM

TheOneHawk

2015-08-17, 10:27 AM

Some minor notes,

Cross-Disciplined: the gifted adept trait does the same but without the 1/day restriction.

Blade Bravado: While it might be good for a duelist, the magus doesn't have a move action available to feint with.

Arcane Revitalization: You mention you can't take this with magical lineage; however, there is a regional feat that does the same thing, i.e. Wayang Spellhunter. So you could take both. Also, upon reflection, I'd say that +1 pool point (this trait and malleable magic) is about equally useful to a magus as +2 to concentration; so since you're rating +2 conc as green, I suggest that AR and MM are also green.

Noted on the Cross-Disciplined.

Blade Bravado doesn't only apply to feinting, it applies to every kind of Bluff as well as Acrobatics, so it's rated the same as other traits that give two +1's to decent skills. It's definitely on the low end of green though, because it's conditional. The condition is very easy to meet, but still.

You're right about Wayang Spellhunter, but that also stacks with Magical Lineage, which gets really nasty really fast. I'll adjust them to green, though, since I only took green away from them because you told me to -.-

Unbodied

2015-08-24, 11:02 AM

Does anyone remember what all + Initative traits are?

There's Reactionary, Warrior of Old, Elven Reflexes, Paragon of Speed, Perceptive Talent, On Guard, Chance Saviour and Exiled.

Any others?

Ninjaxenomorph

2015-08-24, 07:18 PM

Veteran of Battle and Tactician both give +1 bonuses along with an extra bonus, being able to draw a weapon as a free action for the former and a once/day bonus on AoOs for the latter.

TheOneHawk

2015-08-26, 11:11 AM

Ok, 2 weeks off is enough of a break. I've been putting off continuing this for a while but I'm gonna get rolling on it again now.

Unbodied

2015-08-26, 12:10 PM

Ok, 2 weeks off is enough of a break. I've been putting off continuing this for a while but I'm gonna get rolling on it again now.

Hoooraaayyy!:smalltongue:

Found a great trait on Archives of Nethys by he way. Its called Fashionable and is basically the exact same thing as Extremely Fashionable except that you only need 80gp worth of clothing and there's nothing about the bonus going away if you get your clothes dirty. Best of all its a Faction Trait so if you want to take Power of Suggestion but don't have Bluff as a Class Skill you still get the best way of obtaining it.

Edit:
It gives Sense Motive instead of Intimidate though. Which is fine by me since I'm maxing out Sense Motive but have zero ranks in Intimidate. :smallwink:

TheOneHawk

2015-09-10, 05:48 AM

Social Traits A-F done. I should be able to get this going again at a more respectable pace shortly. Was busier this last couple weeks than I expected.

Felyndiira

2015-09-10, 06:52 AM

Shoanti Tattoo is actually rather good for classes that don't get Martial Weapon Proficiency. Both the Earthbreaker and Bolas are excellent weapons for, say, a Lunar Oracle that can't get skill at arms.

A note on traits that give +Save vs. Mind-Affecting: Mind Affecting is a majority of the will saves that you will encounter out there. Thus, a +2 to saves against mind affecting is very close to a +2 to will saves, and thus is a strong contender for being a great trait. Innocent is also really good - as lying is the most common use of Bluff by far, and making a lie sound reasonable isn't difficult a majority of the time as long as you don't have a antagonistic GM.

TheOneHawk

2015-09-11, 04:41 AM

In regards to Shoanti Tattoo and Innocent, you're right. They are good. That's why they're listed as green. I really don't think they're quite up to blue level, but green is certainly not a bad trait. I think you might be thinking of green as the third level of traits, which it technically is, but purple is ridiculously exclusive.

As far as the Mind-affecting being the majority of will saves, you raise a good point. For some reason I was reading that and thinking 'charm and compulsion'. That should encompass all of those plus at least some fear effects and maybe some other things I can't think of right now. Thanks for the catch.

Prime32

2015-09-12, 02:56 PM

Beastkin: You gain a +1 trait bonus on Survival checks and can use speak with animals as a spell-like ability at will to communicate with the type of animal that raised you. Narrow bonus with a minor bonus. Not good.Narrow, sure, but there's creative stuff you can do with that SLA, especially if the party has animal companions or familiars... and being able to talk to your pet is just fun in general. Also its caster level defaults to your character level, which means you qualify for item creation feats (assuming you're a race that doesn't have SLAs already).

Ninjaxenomorph

2015-09-12, 03:37 PM

SLAs no longer qualify you for prereqs anymore.

TheOneHawk

2015-09-12, 07:36 PM

Yeah, the change that made SLA's no longer count for pre-req's knocked every single one of those traits down quite a bit. Speak With Animals is a level 1 spell, rather than a cantrip and you can use it at will, which is pretty nice. Realistically, though, it's not that great of a level 1 spell, and you can only use it with the specific type of animal that you choose at character creation.

Ninjaxenomorph

2015-09-12, 09:03 PM

Granted, having it at-will with only one type of animal can be all someone needs if they are a hunter or another animal companion class. Personally, I'd rate it as situationally orange.

Prime32

2015-09-13, 08:18 AM

SLAs no longer qualify you for prereqs anymore.Eh? In 3.5, having a fireball SLA doesn't count as "ability to cast 3rd-level spells", only "ability to cast fireball". It has a caster level, but it's neither arcane nor divine (unless specified otherwise, like with warlock) so you can only meet generic "Caster Level 5th" requirements, not "Arcane Caster Level 5th".

As far as I'm aware, Pathfinder initially ruled that a fireball SLA does count as the ability to cast 3rd-level spells, and that SLAs are either arcane or divine based on the spell list they came from (defaulting to arcane if there's multiple options). Then they changed their minds and said that SLAs don't count as the ability to cast spells.

...okay, it looks like they changed the rules two more times after that - first saying that racial and class-based SLAs were different things, then in February this year they changed the FAQ answer "Do SLAs qualify you for item creation feats?" from yes to no, without explaining why not. :smallsigh:

TheOneHawk

2015-10-06, 07:54 PM

Social traits are done. Next up should be Regional.

TheOneHawk

2015-10-31, 08:12 PM

Did I say regional? Forget I said that, I'm working through Campaign. Carrion Crown, Council of Thieves, Curse of the Crimson Throne and Giantslayer are done. I think I should be able to get this rolling out faster again now, life seems to have (maybe) calmed down a bit. Apologies for the delays the last couple months.

TheOneHawk

2015-10-31, 10:41 PM

Hell's Rebels is done, however there's a couple traits in there that refer to campaign specific mechanics that I don't know the real value of so I could use some feedback from someone who's played the AP about how useful those bonuses are.

Kurald Galain

2015-11-01, 03:21 AM

Yay! Welcome back Hawk!

TheOneHawk

2015-11-01, 04:00 AM

Damn good to be here! Glad to see this hasn't been forgotten :smalltongue:

Iron Gods, Jade Regent and Kingmaker done.

Prime32

2015-11-01, 11:18 AM

Infernal Bastard (Tiefling): You are something less than even your tiefling kin. Perhaps it is a result of your hard life, or perhaps it is due to some fault in your fiendish heritage, but you lack a tiefling’s standard resistances to cold, electricity, and fire—instead, you merely have a +2 bonus on all saving throws made against these effects. Likewise, you do not have the ability to use darkness as a spell-like ability once per day—instead, you may choose any one 0-level spell that you can instead use at will as a spell-like ability. Um. I’m… really failing to see the bonus you get from this trait. Is it supposed to be a flaw? This is awful if it’s a trait.
Are you sure this is a race trait and not an alternate racial trait? Because it sounds more like the latter.

TheOneHawk

2015-11-01, 11:41 AM

It's listed on both AoN and D20PFSRD as a Council of Thieves campaign trait for tiefling's only. I cannot come up with even the slightest reason for its existence, though.

TheOneHawk

2015-11-01, 11:28 PM

Legacy of Fire, Mummy's Mask and Reign of Winter done.

I'm really irritated that you can't add separate sheets in a google doc like you can in a spreadsheet. This guide is starting to lag, probably from being 111 pages long, and I have to split it all into separate docs all linked together to fix it, I think. Why the hell isn't this a thing? They obviously have the tech for it, since it's already implemented on sheets.

CGNefarious

2015-11-02, 06:39 AM

You could create a separate doc for each section and link between them if it's really an issue.

TheOneHawk

2015-11-03, 11:38 PM

I'll probably end up doing that, yeah. Just annoying that a couple of the features I expected just aren't available. Namely, no sheet function and chat is useless because I have to give people edit access for them to be able to chat.

RotRL is done, I'm assuming they did new traits when they re-released it since I don't recognize some of them, but I just put them all in one place.

TheOneHawk

2015-11-08, 05:45 AM

Campaign traits are finished! Whoo!

I've also reformatted into 14 separate documents, one for each type of trait plus the homepage which is where the whole guide used to be. If you see any broken links, please let me know. Also, if someone could leave a couple comments of random stuff on various pages just so I can test something that would be appreciated.

TheOneHawk

2015-11-09, 04:00 AM

Cosmic Traits are done.

Kurald Galain

2015-11-09, 04:38 AM

I've also reformatted into 14 separate documents, one for each type of trait plus the homepage which is where the whole guide used to be. If you see any broken links, please let me know. Also, if someone could leave a couple comments of random stuff on various pages just so I can test something that would be appreciated.

While it makes sense to split the document, I'm afraid that this split makes it harder to find traits. I would really recommend splitting it by function instead, e.g. moving all "<skill> becomes a class skill" traits into one document (sorted by skill), all traits that boost your saving throws into a second document, everything that increases attack rolls or damage rolls into a third, and everything else into a forth. For example.

In such a way, your guide would be much more useful to people with questions like "I'm building a character but my fortitude is bad, how do I fix that", or "I want the trait with the best bonus to <skill>".

$.02

TheOneHawk

2015-11-09, 05:08 AM

I agree 100% and fully intend to do just that. The issue is that I haven't gotten through every trait yet, so I don't want to spend a significant amount of time organizing them into what they each do only to have to do it again once I finish the other trait types. I only have four trait types left to do, one of which is very small, so the current format is very much temporary.

The current plan is that once I've gone through all the traits I'm going to set up additional documents based around function. Every green+ trait will be sorted into a document based on what it does (attack bonuses, save bonuses, utility, magic stuff, skills etc.) and listed in order from best to worst with a tag next to it stating what type of trait it is so people don't grab illegal combinations by accident.

Kurald Galain

2015-11-09, 05:09 AM

TheOneHawk

2015-11-09, 05:12 AM

Awesome :D

Easy to say when you don't have to do it. I have grown to hate formatting. :smalltongue:

stack

2015-11-09, 07:09 AM

TheOneHawk

2015-11-10, 10:18 PM

The reason for the tiefling trait, as I recall hearing it, was that at the time there was concern that they were too strong of a race, so that trait could be forced on players as a nerf. Which is obviously not how traits are supposed to work.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or facepalm. Both are appropriate, I think.

Faction traits and Mount traits are done. Just Region and Religion left! They're both massive though so they'll take some time to work through. I think I'm going to organize them by region and religion and redo race traits the same way, similar to how I have campaign and faction traits sorted.

Ninjaxenomorph

2015-11-10, 11:59 PM

And flaws, or have you decided not to do those?

TheOneHawk

2015-11-11, 12:08 AM

Damnit, right. Drawbacks still to be done as well.

Kurald Galain

2015-11-11, 07:21 AM

May I suggest that the Burst of Speed trait is actually not so good? This is because a regular horse already has 50' movement speed, 100' on a charge, and that's one of the slower mounts in the game (for example, a pegasus clocks in at 120'). While it's true that a mounted character wants to make as many charges as possible, it is extremely rare for his ability to charge to be limited by movement rate; it's usually limited by terrain or positioning. Frankly I'd rate this orange, as it's an ability you'll almost never need.

Actually, all mount traits are pretty bad considering that a moderate-level mounted character won't be riding a horse. He'll want to ride a roc, gryphon, nightmare, or perhaps a blink dog, but surely not an ordinary horse.

Aside from that, please note that there are more faction traits, e.g. here (http://louisville-pfs.com/index.php?title=Chapter_4_-_Factions#Osirion_Traits). I believe that each year of PFS has its own faction traits, although there is overlap between them. While it may not make sense to make a new character from older documents, if there's any gems in there (or you switch to a new faction) they could be picked up via the Extra Traits feat.

TheOneHawk

2015-11-11, 11:26 AM

May I suggest that the Burst of Speed trait is actually not so good? This is because a regular horse already has 50' movement speed, 100' on a charge, and that's one of the slower mounts in the game (for example, a pegasus clocks in at 120'). While it's true that a mounted character wants to make as many charges as possible, it is extremely rare for his ability to charge to be limited by movement rate; it's usually limited by terrain or positioning. Frankly I'd rate this orange, as it's an ability you'll almost never need.

Point.

Actually, all mount traits are pretty bad considering that a moderate-level mounted character won't be riding a horse. He'll want to ride a roc, gryphon, nightmare, or perhaps a blink dog, but surely not an ordinary horse.

Better point. That completely didn't occur to me but is very true.

Aside from that, please note that there are more faction traits, e.g. here (http://louisville-pfs.com/index.php?title=Chapter_4_-_Factions#Osirion_Traits). I believe that each year of PFS has its own faction traits, although there is overlap between them. While it may not make sense to make a new character from older documents, if there's any gems in there (or you switch to a new faction) they could be picked up via the Extra Traits feat.

You are the worst.

Comments in bold.

TheOneHawk

2015-11-28, 03:24 AM

Ok, couple updates on the guide. I apologize for the slowed pace, I'm right towards the end of a stretch at work with 341 hours in 32 days, so getting off work and then working on this guide has been getting less and less appealing. 2 days left then I probably have a month off, so I think I can safely say this guide should be done before the new year.

Racial traits have been reformatted so that every trait for a specific race is together with a table of contents. Religion traits have been formatted (thank you FarmerBink for the help with that) and I've started rating them, though there's still some distance to go in that regard. Additionally, comments were accidentally disabled on almost all of the sheets, thank you Keledrath for pointing that out, they have been enabled.

Additionally, I can't find a solid source for every out of date faction trait and since they're, well, out of date, unless someone knows where I can find them all I'm just going to ignore all of them that aren't current.

Kurald Galain

2015-11-28, 12:23 PM

Additionally, I can't find a solid source for every out of date faction trait and since they're, well, out of date, unless someone knows where I can find them all I'm just going to ignore all of them that aren't current.

Here you go. It's all a freely available document from Paizo, so some people have made backups.

7 - http://paizo.com/products/btpy84k4
6 - http://www.4shared.com/web/preview/pdf/LY7Na1xcce
5 - http://kschnee.xepher.net/rpg/resources/PZOPSS0000E.pdf
4 - http://louisville-pfs.com/index.php?title=Chapter_4_-_Factions
3 - http://cporter.net/rpgs/books/Dungeons%20&%20Dragons/3E/Books/3rd%20Party/Pathfinder/Pathfinder%20Society/Guides/Guide%20to%20Pathfinder%20Society%20Organized%20Pl ay%20(v3.0).pdf
2 - http://cporter.net/rpgs/books/Dungeons%20&%20Dragons/3E/Books/3rd%20Party/Pathfinder/Pathfinder%20Society/Guides/Guide%20to%20Pathfinder%20Society%20Organized%20Pl ay%20(v2.01).pdf
1 - Doesn't have faction traits yet

TheOneHawk

2015-11-28, 12:31 PM

DAMMIT KURALD! LET ME SLACK OFF IN PEACE!

All right, thanks, I'll get those added in.

Kurald Galain

2015-11-28, 12:37 PM

DAMMIT KURALD! LET ME SLACK OFF IN PEACE!

All right, thanks, I'll get those added in.

Sorry :smallbiggrin:

Most of them are duplicates anyway.

Slithery D

2015-11-30, 06:15 PM

I went looking for your rating of Unabashed Gall (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/unabashed-gall-social) in Social Traits and discovered that it looks like some of the Champions of Balance traits (you do have Amiable Blunder) made it in.

How are you doing quality control to make sure you included all of the traits published in the smaller supplements?

TheOneHawk

2015-11-30, 07:36 PM

Unabashed Gall is there, right between Truth's Agent and Unintentional Linguist. I don't like it, personally. Here's my rating and reasoning.

Unabashed Gall: Whenever you commit an unexpected and outrageously unlawful act (such as knowingly destroying or stealing something) that would elicit a hostile response from another creature, you may attempt a Bluff check opposed by the opponent’s Sense Motive check. If you’re successful, you and any allies who were willfully expecting your unlawful deed may act in a surprise round. For each ally willfully expecting your unlawful deed, you take a cumulative –2 penalty on your Bluff check. If your Bluff check fails, there is no surprise round. Regardless of whether your Bluff check succeeds, you and any allies willfully taking advantage of your unlawful deed treat your initiative checks for the duration of combat as though you had each rolled a 1. This was looking somewhat decent until the last sentence. Really, if you’re being observed by someone you want surprise on could you not simply attack them rather than depend on a bluff check and then be forced into a very bad Initiative roll? Meh.

As far as quality control, I go through every trait on Archives of Nethys, then cross reference it against D20PFSRD. If it's not on either of those sites, I'll miss it.

Mehangel

2015-11-30, 07:42 PM

Unabashed Gall is there, right between Truth's Agent and Unintentional Linguist. I don't like it, personally. Here's my rating and reasoning.

Unabashed Gall: Whenever you commit an unexpected and outrageously unlawful act (such as knowingly destroying or stealing something) that would elicit a hostile response from another creature, you may attempt a Bluff check opposed by the opponent’s Sense Motive check. If you’re successful, you and any allies who were willfully expecting your unlawful deed may act in a surprise round. For each ally willfully expecting your unlawful deed, you take a cumulative –2 penalty on your Bluff check. If your Bluff check fails, there is no surprise round. Regardless of whether your Bluff check succeeds, you and any allies willfully taking advantage of your unlawful deed treat your initiative checks for the duration of combat as though you had each rolled a 1. This was looking somewhat decent until the last sentence. Really, if you’re being observed by someone you want surprise on could you not simply attack them rather than depend on a bluff check and then be forced into a very bad Initiative roll? Meh.

I agree with your assessment of the trait. In fact when I read it for the first time, I felt that it would actually fit better as a drawback instead of a trait. That just goes to show how horrible it is.

Slithery D

2015-11-30, 07:54 PM

Unabashed Gall is there, right between Truth's Agent and Unintentional Linguist.

For some reason control-f was finding any of these until I manually scrolled down looking to see which one of us was crazy. Thanks.

Really, if you’re being observed by someone you want surprise on could you not simply attack them rather than depend on a bluff check and then be forced into a very bad Initiative roll? Meh.

There's at least one 100+ post argument (see here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t0nm&page=1?Everyone-is-staring-at-each-other-Surprise-round)) on the Paizo forums on how to interpret the surprise rules when everyone is looking at everyone else in a social situation and someone pulls a weapon.

When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.
Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
After the surprise round (if any), all combatants are ready to begin the first normal round of combat.
Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).

* * *

Determining Awareness

Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.

To me and a lot of other people this means there is no opportunity for a surprise if you're aware of the presence of your potential opponents when someone takes an aggressive action. You just roll basic initiative.

So under this interpretation Unabashed Gall does have a role - if your Bluff is considerably better than the opposing Sense Motive, and this is a bigger advantage than your regular initiative numbers, you can have a very good chance of going first by using this feat if you're in a social situation or a tense negotiation. Everyone's staring at each other with hands on hilts, they have better/equal initiative bonuses, but your Bluff is amazing. So you slap one in the face and use Unabashed Gall to try for a surprise round rather than take a 50/50 (or whatever) shot on winning regular initiative.

I could see a Mesmerist who wants to get off the first spell in combat (and gets half level as a bonus on Bluff) using this in social situations to land a mass charm person, mass hold person, or mass suggestion before anyone can react. It's just a matter of do you want better odds (properly built) for a standard action first or worse odds for going first with a full set of actions. And if you're a caster with a great bluff and a not great initiative this might be good for you.

Edit: Since this is an opposed check, it's also a way for high level casters to use Moment of Prescience in order to go first.

TheOneHawk

2015-11-30, 08:15 PM

I can see where you're coming from with that. You're definitely right that it's more useful than I originally thought since it isn't technically inferior to just straight up attacking them. That said, I still have some pretty significant problems with it.

1. On average it's giving you a -9.5 to your initiative score for that fight just to get a surprise round. Surprise rounds are great, don't get me wrong, but are they worth that big of a penalty to your standard initiative?

2. Slapping someone in the face isn't going to trigger it. Unexpected and outrageously unlawful. That's **** like, I don't know, stealing the king's crown off his head in the middle of a parade. Slapping people is generally not actually illegal at all, never mind outrageously so.

3. That -2 penalty can add up pretty darn fast, and if you fail that bluff roll your ENTIRE PARTY can be stuck with a 1 on their initiative roll, meaning that most of the time every single one of you will be going last. That will happen sometimes, and I think eating a full round from the entire enemy group is a bigger negative than getting a surprise round on them

4. Moment of Prescience is an eighth level spell. Dropping an eighth level spell slot in order to get a surprise round and lose initiative afterwards is pretty... underwhelming considering the amount of power you can get from spells of that level.

Slithery D

2015-11-30, 08:40 PM

2. Slapping someone in the face isn't going to trigger it. Unexpected and outrageously unlawful. That's **** like, I don't know, stealing the king's crown off his head in the middle of a parade. Slapping people is generally not actually illegal at all, never mind outrageously so.

Um...what country are you in? Somalia? It's absolutely illegal in any civilized nation. I've, uh, graduated law school and let me assure you this is the case in every US state. Maybe you won't get prosecuted, depending on the circumstances, but that's not the same thing at all.

3. That -2 penalty can add up pretty darn fast, and if you fail that bluff roll your ENTIRE PARTY can be stuck with a 1 on their initiative roll, meaning that most of the time every single one of you will be going last. That will happen sometimes, and I think eating a full round from the entire enemy group is a bigger negative than getting a surprise round on them.

The party doesn't have to participate. You can roll solo if they don't want to "willfully" participate.

4. Moment of Prescience is an eighth level spell. Dropping an eighth level spell slot in order to get a surprise round and lose initiative afterwards is pretty... underwhelming considering the amount of power you can get from spells of that level.

For a spell caster who doesn't want to move there is no difference in combat order between getting a surprise round (cast spell) and winning initiative (cast spell and move). But this way you can increase your odds of going first if a standard action is all you need. For a high level spell caster it often is.

TheOneHawk

2015-11-30, 08:48 PM

Um...what country are you in? Somalia? It's absolutely illegal in any civilized nation. I've, uh, graduated law school and let me assure you this is the case in every US state. Maybe you won't get prosecuted, depending on the circumstances, but that's not the same thing at all.

I don't know what game you're playing, but I've never played a game of pathfinder set in any of the modern day United States.

The party doesn't have to participate. You can roll solo if they don't want to "willfully" participate.

This is true, but in the event that you do want your party to participate my point stands. It's an option.

For a spell caster who doesn't want to move there is no difference in combat order between getting a surprise round (cast spell) and winning initiative (cast spell and move). But this way you can increase your odds of going first if a standard action is all you need. For a high level spell caster it often is.

Yeah, in that specific circumstance it does increase your odds of going first. So does a +2 to initiative, which applies in every situation, instead of only the very specific types of situations that this trait covers. I'm not denying that there are fringe cases where this trait is absolutely useful, and potentially fight winning. I do not like that it has the potential to punish you (unlike 99% of traits which are pure bonuses) and is exceedingly narrow. There's a theme throughout the guide that I dislike narrow traits, this trait only functions when you're in a situation where you have an enemy in front of you that is aware of you and you want to fight but you are not currently fighting. Can you honestly tell me that's going to come up enough that it's really worth more than +2 to initiative in every fight?

Slithery D

2015-12-01, 10:00 AM

Can you honestly tell me that's going to come up enough that it's really worth more than +2 to initiative in every fight?

Nope! I think it's orange and for niche builds in specific campaigns. But I also think it's the Chaotic Neutral social trait and it has awesome flavor.

TheOneHawk

2015-12-01, 10:06 AM

It really depresses me that almost every single interesting, flavourful trait is just inferior to the boring, simple ones. I'll add some of your points to the assessment of this trait though, thanks for discussing it with me :smallsmile:

Vhaidara

2015-12-01, 10:11 AM

It really depresses me that almost every single interesting, flavourful trait is just inferior to the boring, simple ones.

Of course they are. Flavor is the most OP thing in the game, as far as Paizo is concerned, so everything flavorful has to be garbage. Otherwise powergaming munchkins could make decent characters and the real roleplayers couldn't whine about them.

I kind of wish I could make that blue, but I can't.

Ninjaxenomorph

2015-12-06, 10:46 AM

On the topic of traits, since you're going through Regional at the moment, I'd say that Highlander is pretty good. Stealth as class skill with +1 bonus, which increases to +2 in rocky or hilly areas. I have in on my Tiefling witch in PFS, and it's part of the reason she is ludicrously good at stealth (the familiar bonus and racial bonus also help).

Escheton

2015-12-15, 01:58 AM

TheOneHawk

2015-12-19, 09:47 PM

Just popping in to say thanks. Thank you for taking the time and effort to update a document we all to this day have been using due to a lack of anything better short of digging through all the traits ourselves and MAYBE finding a gem in the new material after hours and hours of digging.
Thank you.

You're very welcome. I still have a lot of work to do, but I'm glad to hear you've found this useful.

Religion traits are (finally) done. Drawbacks should follow shortly. Regional is scary but that's next up after Drawbacks. After that it's time to organize them all, which is probably going to take another year or six, but what can you do.

Kurald Galain

2015-12-20, 06:44 AM

Great work, Hawk!

Flames of Hell: this is great on any build that uses variant channeling. On builds that don't, I'd say that channel to heal is much better than channel to harm, so this trait shouldn't be worth it. This goes for the Sacred Conduit trait as well.

Starlit Hexer: As you say, there are not a lot of curse spells in the game; but aside from that, most of them are lacklustre to awful. Other than Bestow Curse itself, there are basically none that I would consider using. People who want a curse-based character should probably go for witch hexes instead, which oddly enough this "hexer" trait doesn't help with.

Inspiring Leader: Well, there are not a lot of spells that give a morale bonus, and it turns out that for none of them caster level is particularly relevant. Basically all it does is increase range from 150' to 160', or duration from 10 minutes to 11, or instead of giving four temporary hit points, give five of them. This will pretty much never make a difference in game play. Loyal Bond and Gifted Medium have the same issue.

Expert Boarder: Sorry but how is this green? Even in a pirate-based campaign you're going to spend most of your time fighting on docks, in the rigging, underwater, and so forth.

Strength of the Sun: If you build for it, caster level checks, reflex saving throws, and initiative can all be charisma-based... making this wonderful for Oracles and characters with the Noble Scion feat.

Defensive Strategist: This is very powerful, since being flat-footed means you can use immediate actions. Lots of characters have immediates that are very useful (for example, "turn a crit into a normal hit" of the Jingasa. If you get critted in a surprise round, well, this trait just saved you from dying!). Oh, and you keep your dex to armor class, which can easily be an extra +5 to AC if ambushed. Overall this is better than Combat Reflexes, which is a pretty good feat by itself.

TheOneHawk

2015-12-20, 07:05 AM

Agreed on all counts, upon a second look. I... really don't know why the hell Expert Boarder was green. I was considering bumping Strength of the Sun to purple, since with some optimization I feel like it can apply to nearly as many things as Fate's Favoured.

TheOneHawk

2015-12-21, 04:42 AM

Drawbacks are completed.

Ninjaxenomorph

2015-12-21, 10:57 AM

A lot of the drawbacks can fluctuate in impact depending on the character in question, but I think those are rated fairly. In particular I'm a fan of Family Ties, since I tend to make characters that are close to their family. Also, in a very meta strategy on my behalf, it forces the GM if they actually want to exploit the drawback to actually use my backstory, which tends to be a problem in games I play.

TheOneHawk

2015-12-27, 05:26 AM

Regional A-D is done. Those four letters filled 16 freaking pages of a doc.

TheOneHawk

2016-01-08, 12:53 PM

Holy ****. That's all of them. Every single trait ever released by Paizo for either 3.5 or Pathfinder has been rated and placed alphabetically in its section.

Regional and Race are by far the majority of the new things, with all of Regional being recently completed plus about 100 traits being added to Racial (damn you Races of the Inner Sea). There's a few scattered traits in each of the basic categories as well.

I'll get around to sorting them next, but at least everything is there now.

Ninjaxenomorph

2016-01-08, 01:12 PM

... Did you get the newer traits from Weapon Master's Handbook?

Mostly, I wanted your opinion on a combat trait called Red Mantis Bleeding that added one point of bleed damage to all confirmed crits with a slashing weapon, but there are others.

TheOneHawk

2016-01-08, 01:20 PM

Sorry, every published trait that's on Archives of Nethys. He's a little behind right now. I'll get to those when they're added to AoN.

Vhaidara

2016-01-08, 01:55 PM

Mostly, I wanted your opinion on a combat trait called Red Mantis Bleeding that added one point of bleed damage to all confirmed crits with a slashing weapon, but there are others.

To me, that sounds red. Orange at best.

First off, bleed damage absolutely sucks. Second, it only procs on confirmed crits, so prior to Keen/IC, that's a 15% chance of threatening one, then reduced based on your actual chance to hit. And by the time you DO have Keen/IC, let's look at the numbers.

Let's call it level 11, and say you have two keen kukris with GTWF. So that's 6 attacks on a full attack. if EVERY attack confirms a crit, you add 6 bleed damage. That's added onto 12d4 (base damage for 6 kukri crits) + 9x Str mod (6x for main hand, 3x for offhand) + 6x and precision damage you have (sneak attack and the like) + 12x whatever flat damage you have (like favored enemy or smite).

I dont think most things are going to survive that in the first place. And if it does, i don't think 6 bleed damage is going to matter, because it'll probably kill you on its turn anyways.

Kurald Galain

2016-01-09, 04:33 AM

TheOneHawk

2016-01-09, 07:53 AM

Congrats on finishing this.

Some thoughts on the new traits,

Akitonian Ferocity - An issue with this (and orcish ferocity) is that if you keep standing, enemies will keep hitting you. Basically, in most combats, being at negative hp will keep you mostly safe, whereas being at very low positive hp puts you in danger of being killed. I would avoid it for that reason.
Born Under the Green Star - I've checked some spell lists, and I can't find any mind-affecting spells where caster level actually matters; so this trait basically does nothing.
Glory of Old - I'm not sure why you'd call this narrow; I'd say that about 80% of the saving throws in the game are against spells or SLAs. This trait strikes me as much better (almost three times as good) as getting e.g. a +1 bonus to fortitude.
Giant-Harried - This is particularly good on small races, because pretty much everything you fight is going to be bigger than them.
Blighted Physiology – In my area we do a lot of Channel Energy for in-combat healing; that would make this trait a seriously bad idea. As I recall, there's also one or two traits that increase AC without this silly downside.
Community-Minded – While this is indeed a great trait, it's not actually so good for skalds. That's because a skald has so many rage rounds that he won't run out anyway; and more importantly because the skald's main appeal is sharing rage powers, and this trait doesn't work with that.
Sargavan Guard – Note that for most classes, it’s pretty easy to reduce ACP by using masterwork and special materials, or by not caring about str/dex skills much (and climb/jump/swim checks aren't needed once you learn how to fly). If you care about a particular skill, just grab a trait for that instead.
Alchemical Prodigy – Adding +1 round of duration is useful at level one, but becomes basically pointless around level four. What matters is whether a round per level extract lasts through the entire combat, or if a minute per level extract lasts through two; 6 rounds instead of 5 (or 8 minutes instead of 7) isn't really going to help with that.

$.02!

Akitonian Ferocity: I've made a cautionary note of that, but I still feel it's green on classes who are able to use that action to bring themselves back up to a safe level of hit points, such as a paladin or a cleric that channels positive.

Born Under the Green Star: Noted and changed to red.

Glory of Old: Adjusted wording, it's still blue. Upon second thought, I'm considering a bump to purple since it does apply to a lot of things. Thoughts?

Giant-Harried: Yeah, but small creatures get a -1 to their CMD and CMB just for being small, as well as usually a Str penalty. Small creatures tend to not be great at maneuvers to begin with.

Blighted Physiology: There's one trait that gives +1 AC, it's restricted to fighters and only applies while wearing armour. In that sense, this one is superior, but it does have a pretty significant drawback which is why it's only green. If you aren't expecting in combat healing to be common in your party (many parties don't have a cleric, remember, depending instead on a wand of CLW out of combat) it's a pretty solid choice, I think.

Community-Minded: Skald reference removed. Wording adjusted, any classes you think work particularly well with this?

Sargavan Guard: Mithral breastplate with Sargavan Guard has a 0ACP and can be worn without proficiency. Hell, mithral full plate with Comfort enchantment, Sargavan Guard and Armour Expert can be worn without proficiency, though that's getting a little silly. You're right about Str/Dex skills being pretty lacklustre, though. I like these traits, but I'm not sure if they're as good as I originally thought they were. Hm.

Alchemical Prodigy: Adjusted to green, wording changed.

Slithery D

2016-01-09, 11:21 AM

Congrats on finishing this.

Some thoughts on the new traits,

Born Under the Green Star - I've checked some spell lists, and I can't find any mind-affecting spells where caster level actually matters; so this trait basically does nothing.

Whaaaa? It does what caster level always does on pretty much every spell, increases range, increases duration, increases chance to beat spell resistance, increases your concentration check, and for enchantment spells increases their difficulty for being removed via dispel magic or "higher CL required" spells.

You don't want an extra 5% chance to beat spell resistance for a Mass Suggestion or Charm Monster or Hold Monster? An extra 5% to make a concentration check? I'd take a trait that applies to a huge swath of spells that are often a focus concept.

Hell, with the new (Greater) Shadow Enchantment spells that give you access to damn near every enchantment spell you could stack this with Gifted Adept (+1 CL on chosen spell) to have +2 CL on any mind-affecting enchantment spell you emulate with Shadow Enchantment or its Greater version. That's a concentration feat and a spell penetration feat (and 5' of close range) for your mind-affecting Swiss Army knife out of two traits, not bad.

Glory of Old: Adjusted wording, it's still blue. Upon second thought, I'm considering a bump to purple since it does apply to a lot of things. Thoughts?

I think it's purple. The only "common" form of save that this doesn't apply to is what, disease?

Dgrin

2016-01-09, 01:01 PM

And why Betrayal of Trust is only orange? It is +2 bonus to Bluff, more than usual +1, even though it does not give it as a class skill. If you want to pump up your Bluff, this is, probably, the best trait out here. It should be at least green, in my opinion even blue

TheOneHawk

2016-01-09, 01:13 PM

Adjusted to green, that was an oversight. Thanks for the catch.

Kurald Galain

2016-01-09, 02:07 PM

Giant-Harried: Yeah, but small creatures get a -1 to their CMD and CMB just for being small, as well as usually a Str penalty. Small creatures tend to not be great at maneuvers to begin with.
Most maneuvers work with Weapon Finesse, and many small races have a dex boost. Sure, their CMD isn't that great, but their CMB can be.

Community-Minded: Skald reference removed. Wording adjusted, any classes you think work particularly well with this?
Barbarians, mostly, if they don't have a lot of rage powers and/or have once-per-rage rage powers. Otherwise, most morale bonuses already last for minutes, so adding two rounds isn't going to do much. I've actually tried building a character around this trait in the past and failed to find much use for it.

You're right about Str/Dex skills being pretty lacklustre, though. I like these traits, but I'm not sure if they're as good as I originally thought they were. Hm.
In my experience it's one of those things that just doesn't scale. At level 1-4 or so, climb and swim are extremely useful skills. At higher levels, not so much. Since I get skill points every level, I'm fine with putting a few points in these; but since you only get two traits and cannot retrain them, I would personally never take a trait that just stops being useful after a few levels.

Anyway, characters with high dex aren't going to wear armor with large amounts of SCP, simply because it doesn't help them (and in most cases, because they're not proficient either). So basically the only people who get a big ACP to dex skills are those that weren't going to use dex skills in the first place.

Whaaaa? It does what caster level always does on pretty much every spell, increases range, increases duration, increases chance to beat spell resistance, increases your concentration check, and for enchantment spells increases their difficulty for being removed via dispel magic or "higher CL required" spells.
In almost all cases, range and duration are going to be "much more than you'll need", meaning +1 CL isn't relevant. Fair point about concentration and SR though, that makes this a fair trait for enchantment specialists. Although that's a highly specific build, because of how many things are immune to mind affecting.

I think it's purple. The only "common" form of save that this doesn't apply to is what, disease?
Physical traps. But yeah, if Indomitable Will is blue, then Glory of Old is purple.

TheOneHawk

2016-01-09, 02:29 PM

Most maneuvers work with Weapon Finesse, and many small races have a dex boost. Sure, their CMD isn't that great, but their CMB can be.

Fair

Barbarians, mostly, if they don't have a lot of rage powers and/or have once-per-rage rage powers. Otherwise, most morale bonuses already last for minutes, so adding two rounds isn't going to do much. I've actually tried building a character around this trait in the past and failed to find much use for it.

Barbarians give out morale bonuses to their allies? I still think Skald is better for this, since you can give your whole party bonuses to strength and con with no penalties whatsoever. Losing the rage powers hurts, but the Skald can just start another raging song the next turn if they want.

Comments in bold

Kurald Galain

2016-01-09, 03:01 PM

Comments in bold

Barbarian is a bit of a loophole, but since you are your own ally, community-minded lets you keep your own morale bonus.

Ah, this is what I was looking for. The trait is good on any ranged character with a Designating weapon, or any character with a Laurel of Command, and particularly for clerics of Milani (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/beacon-of-hope).

TheOneHawk

2016-01-09, 03:11 PM

Oh. Wow. That's a pretty nifty set of combo's for sure.

Second Arrow

2016-01-09, 03:52 PM

Chiming in to say WELL DONE on finishing this. Be proud!

Re: Community-Minded - The trait can also see some use on an Oracle with VMC Barbarian build too (By level 5, all the positives, none the negatives), regardless of how suboptimal VMC Barbarian is.

Given that the area it comes from (Rahadoum) is super-anti divine-casting, you could probably flavour it as the reason why your rage bonuses sticks around for longer is simply because of lingering resentment, due to how you were treated earlier on. :P

Also, C-M could be useful for a Skald with the Superstitious rage power, as it grants morale bonuses to saving throws, so they'll stick too.

EDIT: Re: Glory of Old: - It also doesn't apply to supernatural abilities, out of which maybe the most noteworthy are witch hexes. That being said, Glory of Old + Steel Soul + Dwarf w/ Hardy makes sure that you'll probably save on most things you ever encounter.

TheOneHawk

2016-01-09, 04:05 PM

Finish? It's not finished. I still have to sort them. I promised I would at least a dozen times so I can't really go back on it now. Thanks though, feels good to have gotten this far for sure.

Prime32

2016-01-10, 07:41 PM

Scrambling Servant: You retain your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class while climbing and gain a +1 trait bonus on Climb checks. I just don’t see this coming up very often. How often are you really being attacked while climbing something, honestly?Well if you can bring in the Hammer and Piton feat from Dungeonscape, plus maybe Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk...
(There are ways to retain your Dex bonus in 3.5, but none as cheap as a trait)

Ninjaxenomorph

2016-01-10, 09:07 PM

There's a rogue archetype that can climb larger enemies that is pretty good, don't know if that trait would be good. They probably get that ability already.

Escheton

2016-01-14, 01:51 AM

Didn't spot the singularly best trait (imo) under "any" in race traits: Blood of Dragons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/blood-of-dragons). Because lowlight vision is awesome (if your dm isn't a n00b).

TheOneHawk

2016-01-14, 02:26 AM

It's there, under human. I'm afraid I don't like it much, though, since by far the best bonus is the low light vision and I really don't put much value on low light vision. Maybe your experience has been different from mine, but I just don't see it come up nearly often enough to matter.

Kurald Galain

2016-01-14, 02:50 AM

Because lowlight vision is awesome (if your dm isn't a n00b).

There's a first-level cantrip that deals with lack of light, and then there's torches, and easily half the races in the game have lowlight or darkvision already. So I wouldn't personally spend a trait on that.

Escheton

2016-01-14, 02:00 PM

There's a first-level cantrip that deals with lack of light, and then there's torches, and easily half the races in the game have lowlight or darkvision already. So I wouldn't personally spend a trait on that.

The point isn't lack of light. The point is seeing without being seen. Lowlight vision might get underplayed though. I admit.

TheOneHawk

2016-01-14, 02:04 PM

Kurald Galain

2016-01-14, 02:07 PM

The point isn't lack of light. The point is seeing without being seen. Lowlight vision might get underplayed though. I admit.

Well, there's some nice traits that add up to +4 to your stealth check... :smallwink:

Escheton

2016-01-15, 12:37 AM

The thing is, low light isn't the most common of situations. Most of the time, in my experience, there's either enough light to see by, or none at all. Low light helps a little in no light, since it extends how far you can see from a torch, but that's pretty rare overall and even then you're still using a torch.

It allows you to see as clear as daylight when outside with the moon out.
Which I consider a big deal. Especially for the party scout or person on guard duty while the rest sleeps.

In similar vein. It allows a trapper to sneak and trap-spot twice as far ahead of the party and their giant "we are here, attack us"-sign that is a torch. And I'll refer you to The Hobbit to how vital something like that can be.

TiaC

2016-01-31, 05:19 AM

I added the enhanced versions of the WotR campaign traits. They're really slanted towards the casters, I rated both of those purple while the best of the others barely made green.

Can we get another section with only the blue and purple traits?

TheOneHawk

2016-01-31, 05:29 AM

Thanks for that. I plan on doing a section with greens blues and purples all organized into sections based on their effect, but I'm taking a bit of a break from the project at the moment due to real life issues.

TiaC

2016-02-05, 02:42 AM

Since you're busy, I put up the Arcane Anthology traits. There are some pretty good ones in there.

Zanos

2016-02-05, 03:53 AM

It allows you to see as clear as daylight when outside with the moon out.
Which I consider a big deal. Especially for the party scout or person on guard duty while the rest sleeps.

In similar vein. It allows a trapper to sneak and trap-spot twice as far ahead of the party and their giant "we are here, attack us"-sign that is a torch. And I'll refer you to The Hobbit to how vital something like that can be.
I think LLV is underrated. With a bullseye lantern, it gives you bright light out to 120ft and dim out to 240, which is 2x and 4x the typical darkvision range, although that is in a cone. Still, you could use a hooded lantern with LLV for 60/120 everywhere.

TheOneHawk

2016-03-07, 12:22 AM

Guide updated with traits from the Weapon Master's Handbook, Black Markets and Agents of Evil. I'm not sure if there's a better way to notify people of this, since finding specific new traits in the guide is currently... difficult.

TheOneHawk

2016-03-13, 09:04 PM

Finally started on the long-promised traits organized by purpose. Combat traits have been sorted as such. They're currently split into pretty specific sections, many of these may get rolled into each other once I'm done, depending. We'll see how it goes.

I'm not including Campaign or Faction traits in this, since if you have access to them, the lists of ones you can get are easy enough to find in their own section and most of the time they're simply unavailable.

Kurald Galain

2016-03-14, 01:14 PM

Yay!

You might save yourself some work if you group all saving throw traits into one document instead of splitting them per save (and presumably duplicating those that work on all of them). The same goes for skill traits.

TheOneHawk

2016-03-14, 07:42 PM

I'm planning to roll a lot of these together, I'm just keeping them as spread out as I can right now so I can see how much of everything I have and make sure the final sections cover everything cleanly without anything important missing.

Cosmic, Equipment and Mount traits are done, working on Faith next.

Nennafir

2016-04-09, 07:59 AM

Great guide!

Do you think it would be possible to have a document that just listed the purple and blue traits and nothing else?