looking for a critique on my dragonfire adept//crusader feats and maneuvers.

[eternal]

Hey every one. I'm looking to try a gestalt build with dragonfire adept and crusader I need some critiques on my feats and maneuvers progression.
Feel free to be critical, yet kind. :-D. This is all a rough draft off the top of my head.

Maneuvers and Stances- I didn't pick any stances after thicket of blankets. Let me know if it's garbage or good.

1ST LEVEL
1st level Maneuvers- Crusader’s Strike (DS), Vanguard Strike (DS), Stone Bones (SD), Douse the Flames (WR), Charging Minotaur (SD).
1st level Stances- Iron Glare, Martial Spirit.

3RD LEVEL- mountain hammer (SD).

4TH LEVEL- Foehammer (DS) (traded in Stone Bones).

5TH LEVEL- White Raven Tactics (WR)

6TH LEVEL- Revitalizing Strike (DS) (trading in Crusaders Strike).

7TH LEVEL- Covering Strike (WR)

8TH LEVEL- Divine Surge (DS) (traded in Douse the Flames).
3rd level stance- Thicket of Blades.

9TH LEVEL- Elder Mountain Hammer (SD)

10TH LEVEL-Defensive rebuke (DS) (traded out Vanguard Strike)

11TH LEVEL- 6th level Maneuvers- Rallying Strike (DS),

12TH LEVEL- Order Forged From Chaos (WR) (traded in Foehammer).

13TH LEVEL- 7th level Maneuvers- Clarion Call (WR),

14TH LEVEL- Ancient Mountain Hammer (SD) (Traded Charging Minotuar)

15TH LEVEL- 8th level Maneuvers- Greater Divine Surge (DS)

16TH LEVEL- White Raven Hammer (WR) (Traded in Revitalizing strike)

17TH LEVEL- 9th level Maneuvers- Strike of Righteous Vitality (DS)

18TH LEVEL- Mountain Tombstone Strike (SD) (traded in Mountain Hammer)

Final Maneuvers selection.
20TH LEVEL
3rd level Maneuvers- White Raven Tactics (WR), Defensive rebuke (DS)
4th level Maneuvers- Covering Strike (WR), Divine Surge (DS).
5th level Maneuvers- Elder Mountain Hammer (SD).
6th level Maneuvers- Rallying Strike (DS), Order Forged From Chaos (WR).
7th level Maneuvers- Clarion Call (WR), Ancient Mountain Hammer (SD), Swarming Assault (WR)
8th level Maneuvers- Greater Divine Surge (DS), White Raven Hammer (WR).
9th level Maneuvers- Strike of Righteous Vitality (DS) Mountain Tombstone Strike (SD)
1st level Stances- Iron Glare, Martial Spirit.
3rd level stance- Thicket of Blankets.

FEATS- now there are two flaws allowed, and we get a free "hero" feet for simply being an adventurer. This is also path finder progression so there are plenty of feats to go around. I am a dragon born

1st Combat reflexes, Combat Expertise, Extra Granted Maneuver, Improved Trip, Quicken Breath

3rd Knock Down.

5th Entangling exhalation.

7th Clinging Breath

11th ??

13th Robilar’s Gambit

15th Defensive Sweep

17th Maximize Breath

19th Lingering Breath

Tips are more than welcome.

Edit. Cleaned up the maneuvers and changed a few feats.

[thedmring]

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[Troacctid]

Your feats are pretty standard. Maneuvers are really hard to read, but at least the low-level ones are pretty standard—I couldn't follow them very well past level 8 or so. I definitely agree with the Quicken Breath plan—you don't want your breath weapon completing with your maneuvers for standard actions.

It would be nice if you could find room for Obtain Familiar. With a Crusader chassis, a familiar is actually quite formidable, and the blindsense from a bat is very useful when you have access to area attacks. (Also just useful in general, but having area attacks is nice synergy.)

[eternal]

thanks for the reply. now I have a quick question. if I am a human dragon born do I still get the extra feat for being human?

btw any tips on how to make the later maneuvers more readable?

[thedmring]

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[Troacctid]

Do you lose the bonus feat? Sort of. Humans lose a feat when they become dragonborn, but they don't necessarily lose the same feat they originally took as their bonus feat—they choose any one of their feats and lose that. Since you can just get rid of Dragontouched, which is useless to a dragonborn, you're essentially retaining the bonus feat.

Edit: As for making the maneuvers readable, just list all of them, sorted by maneuver level, in the order you take them. One list is fine; twenty is overkill.

[ComaVision]

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lol

You might want to check with your DM about DFA's breath attack qualifying for Metabreath feats. By RAW, it doesn't because the breath attack doesn't have a recovery expressed in rounds (IIRC).

If need be, you can pick up the feat Power Surge from Dragon Magazine to get around that.

[Silva Stormrage]

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Now onto the comments, Crusader and Dragonfire adept don't have a lot of synergy. Dragonfire Adept's breath attack can't be used with manuvers so you want to have more metabreath feats IMO. That way you can pile on the metabreath first round and then use manuvers while it recharges.

I am not a big fan of Stone Power so I would suggest swapping that one out for another stacking or damage augmenting metabreath like Maximize Breath or something similar. Another feat you may want is Knock Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) as its probably more useful to a tripper than defensive sweep or plenty of your other melee feats.

[eternal]

lol

You might want to check with your DM about DFA's breath attack qualifying for Metabreath feats. By RAW, it doesn't because the breath attack doesn't have a recovery expressed in rounds (IIRC).

If need be, you can pick up the feat Power Surge from Dragon Magazine to get around that.

we discussed the dragonborn and meta magic issue, she is fine with it. I didn't want to waste a feat on power surge. the dragonborn's breath is counted in rounds and one could argue that that qualifies you for meta breath feats.

[ComaVision]

we discussed the dragonborn and meta magic issue, she is fine with it. I didn't want to waste a feat on power surge. the dragonborn's breath is counted in rounds and one could argue that that qualifies you for meta breath feats.

Good, fair enough. I should've realised that's the route you were going but I always assume Dragonborn take the Wings aspect.

[eternal]

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Now onto the comments, Crusader and Dragonfire adept don't have a lot of synergy. Dragonfire Adept's breath attack can't be used with manuvers so you want to have more metabreath feats IMO. That way you can pile on the metabreath first round and then use manuvers while it recharges.

I am not a big fan of Stone Power so I would suggest swapping that one out for another stacking or damage augmenting metabreath like Maximize Breath or something similar. Another feat you may want is Knock Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) as its probably more useful to a tripper than defensive sweep or plenty of your other melee feats.

I completely forgot about knock down. Thanks. yeah I was iffy to begin with on stone power so I'll swap those out. the reason for the dragonfire adept side is due to storyline reasons. so I'm trying to make both work a bit better. DFA's can get some battle control features so I had planned on focusing on that. though I may just cut the gestalt and stay a dragonborn crusader.

[thedmring]

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[eternal]

Edit: As for making the maneuvers readable, just list all of them, sorted by maneuver level, in the order you take them. One list is fine; twenty is overkill.

I see your point.

[thedmring]

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[shadowseve]

Now onto the comments, Crusader and Dragonfire adept don't have a lot of synergy. n defensive sweep or plenty of your other melee feats.

I don't know if I agree with this part. With things like entangling exhalation and chilling fog you have a lot of battle field control. Dragonfire adept also gives the crusader raged attacks. You could always quicken all your meta breath feats and move in for some crusader goodness. the class also helps the crusaders will save and gives a small bonus to ac. So IMO if played right it could be a good class combo.

[ComaVision]

Nitpick but lol @ Thicket of Blankets :smallbiggrin:

[eternal]

Nitpick but lol @ Thicket of Blankets :smallbiggrin:

didn't you know that's how crusaders roll? lol I'll fix it.

[Troacctid]

How does your DM feel regarding the breath weapon/Humanoid Shape interaction? I know there's some controversy regarding whether the breath weapon counts as being "from your old form" if it's granted by class levels. If you can't use your breath weapon while shapeshifted, there's probably a legitimate case for just not using it.

[shadowseve]

Do you lose the bonus feat? Sort of. Humans lose a feat when they become dragonborn, but they don't necessarily lose the same feat they originally took as their bonus feat—they choose any one of their feats and lose that. Since you can just get rid of Dragontouched, which is useless to a dragonborn, you're essentially retaining the bonus feat.

I really like this idea. really smart way to get around the losing feat issue.

[eternal]

How does your DM feel regarding the breath weapon/Humanoid Shape interaction? I know there's some controversy regarding whether the breath weapon counts as being "from your old form" if it's granted by class levels. If you can't use your breath weapon while shapeshifted, there's probably a legitimate case for just not using it.

We've not even gotten into the shapeshifted issue.

btw now I'm in need of one more feat since you mentioned getting rid of dragontouched. Thanks for that tip. Maybe Power Attack?

[Troacctid]

Nah. I'm tellin' you, Obtain Familiar. It's the bomb. Even more so if you can upgrade it to something crazy-awesome like a lantern archon or coure eladrin.

[eternal]

Nah. I'm tellin' you, Obtain Familiar. It's the bomb. Even more so if you can upgrade it to something crazy-awesome like a lantern archon or coure eladrin.
I'll have to look into that.

[shadowseve]

Nah. I'm tellin' you, Obtain Familiar. It's the bomb. Even more so if you can upgrade it to something crazy-awesome like a lantern archon or coure eladrin.

(Complete Arcane, p. 81) Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, arcane caster level 3rd are prerequisites to the feat which means he'd have to multi-class in order to get it.

[Troacctid]

(Complete Arcane, p. 81) Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, arcane caster level 3rd are prerequisites to the feat which means he'd have to multi-class in order to get it.

Why would a Dragonfire Adept need to multiclass to get those? DFAs are arcane casters and they have all Knowledge skills as class skills.

[shadowseve]

Why would a Dragonfire Adept need to multiclass to get those? DFAs are arcane casters and they have all Knowledge skills as class skills.

never mind brain fart. You're right.

[thedmring]

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