Monk Cleric

[Ardantis]

Is the Monk/Cleric multiclass favorable? Which class do you take more of? Is it just a one level dip into Monk for Martial Arts and Wis to AC then go Dex Cleric? Or do you take more Monk?

[ZenBear]

I don't know enough about the monk to judge. I'm very curious to see what people come up with! Also, thanks for giving me the idea for another custom subclass! 😁

[Ninja_Prawn]

It's not too MAD, but I see several problems, from an optimisation perspective.

1. Both classes prefer to be pure. Clerics derive most of their power from having full spellcasting, so anything that delays new spell levels and more spell slots is bad. The monk's main resource (ki points) is also tied to level, and is only really useful if your monk level is close to your ECL.

2a. Clerics that want to focus on mundane or gish fighting will usually be Tempest or War domain, and therefore not need Unarmoured Defense.

2b. Clerics, especially War Clerics (which are the most geared towards mundane fighting), have plenty of uses for their bonus action. Off the top of my head, Healing Word, Spiritual Weapon and War Priest all use the BA. Having Martial Arts / Flurry of Blows is redundant and therefore an opportunity cost (you could have taken a level of something else and got a class feature that you can use every turn).

3. There isn't much synergy, because Clerics get medium armour and shields and mostly prefer to anchor a party's battle-line. They don't need the Monk's defense or movement. Monks can't afford to spend actions on spellcasting. Which is, incidentally, why so many people find The Way of the Four Elements to be so underpowered.

I would say that the 'holy warrior monk' fluff is best captured through backgrounds. Either an acolyte-monk or a hermit-cleric.

[Dralnu]

I've been looking but I don't see any synergy. At most, maybe a Monk wants to dip Cleric for Bless as a nice party buff since you aren't concentrating on anything. Clerics already get medium+ armor and shield so unarmored defense isn't that great and vice versa. Divine Strike is only once per attack... yeah, not much here.

[Ardantis]

Makes sense to me.

Do martial arts and unarmored defense work with Wild Shape?

EDIT

Im actually looking at Monk here and none of the core abilities except unarmored defense and stunning strike key off of Wisdom. The Way of Shadow has some great abilities which don't depend on wisdom either, plus you can flurry or use other ki abilities without the armor or weapon restrictions.

Besides being light on ki, a Monk could multiclass into a weapon, armor, or even other key ability caster class and still get some cool stuff.

[JNAProductions]

Do martial arts and unarmored defense work with Wild Shape?

Martial arts? No. You make natural attacks, not unarmed strikes when Wild Shaped.

Unarmored Defense? It might. Ask your DM.

[Ardantis]

Martial arts? No. You make natural attacks, not unarmed strikes when Wild Shaped.

Unarmored Defense? It might. Ask your DM.

Unarmored defense would stack with natural armor if it stacked with, say, Draconic resilience.

Who says animals can't make unarmed strikes? Ever hear of a bear hug?

But seriously, can animals make unarmed strikes?

[JNAProductions]

I (and RAW) would say no. RAW is that natural weapons and unarmed strikes are different.

For me, Monks train with the human body, not the animal body. They do not know it well enough to use Martial Arts as a bear. That, and it's a touch too powerful.

Defense might stack, since some animals just have 10+Dex AC. For those with extra natural armor, you don't get your Wisdom modifier.

On second thought, I personally would not allow it, on grounds of game balance. Some forms (like bear) are balanced by having a relatively low AC.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I (and RAW) would say no. RAW is that natural weapons and unarmed strikes are different.

For me, Monks train with the human body, not the animal body. They do not know it well enough to use Martial Arts as a bear. That, and it's a touch too powerful.

Defense might stack, since some animals just have 10+Dex AC. For those with extra natural armor, you don't get your Wisdom modifier.

On second thought, I personally would not allow it, on grounds of game balance. Some forms (like bear) are balanced by having a relatively low AC.

I agree with all of this. Unarmed Strike and Natural Weapon are different things in this game. The AC is ambiguous, because of the clause "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so." (PHB 67) If the DM wants to ban it, as I would, they would have argue that part of the monk's Unarmoured Defense is down to years of training in how to deflect blows with the hands and arms, how to perform counter-holds, etc., that you'd have to completely re-learn in an animal form. Obviously is wouldn't stack with Natural Armour even if you did allow it.

[Waazraath]

A decent combination for me would be monk 18 / knowledge cleric 2; the cleric levels give 2 free skills at double proficiency bonus, 1/short rest proficiency with any skill/tool for 10 min., 3 cantrips (including guidance for more skill goodness), and 3 1st level spells/day, where a buff like bless or shield of faith could be really usefull, as an emergency word of healing. Monk 19 and 20 are a bit underwhelming imo.

The difficulty is: where to take the levels of cleric; too early and you fall behind, but too late and the cleric stuff isn't too useful anymore; prolly I'd go monk 5 / cleric 2 / monk +13. Not a great combo, but decent for a party lacking in the skill department.

[Doug Lampert]

I've been looking but I don't see any synergy. At most, maybe a Monk wants to dip Cleric for Bless as a nice party buff since you aren't concentrating on anything. Clerics already get medium+ armor and shield so unarmored defense isn't that great and vice versa. Divine Strike is only once per attack... yeah, not much here.


A decent combination for me would be monk 18 / knowledge cleric 2; the cleric levels give 2 free skills at double proficiency bonus, 1/short rest proficiency with any skill/tool for 10 min., 3 cantrips (including guidance for more skill goodness), and 3 1st level spells/day, where a buff like bless or shield of faith could be really usefull, as an emergency word of healing. Monk 19 and 20 are a bit underwhelming imo.

The difficulty is: where to take the levels of cleric; too early and you fall behind, but too late and the cleric stuff isn't too useful anymore; prolly I'd go monk 5 / cleric 2 / monk +13. Not a great combo, but decent for a party lacking in the skill department.

These both work because Cleric dips work for pretty well ANYTHING.
Someone recently posted a link to the wizards of the coast discussion of the guide to dips (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4133666).

Notice that only one class gets three thumbs up, and it's cleric.

[Safety Sword]

I agree with all of this. Unarmed Strike and Natural Weapon are different things in this game. The AC is ambiguous, because of the clause "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so." (PHB 67) If the DM wants to ban it, as I would, they would have argue that part of the monk's Unarmoured Defense is down to years of training in how to deflect blows with the hands and arms, how to perform counter-holds, etc., that you'd have to completely re-learn in an animal form. Obviously is wouldn't stack with Natural Armour even if you did allow it.

It's hard enough to be a martial artist in your own body, doing it in someone else's would be a nightmare :smallamused:

As you say Ninja-Prawn, the reason you can dodge and parry in martial arts is because you train your body to reflexively do things that untrained people can not do. It is a time consuming and literally body reshaping process.

Suddenly changing bodies would make all of your training confusing if anything.

[Waazraath]

These both work because Cleric dips work for pretty well ANYTHING.
Someone recently posted a link to the wizards of the coast discussion of the guide to dips (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4133666).

Notice that only one class gets three thumbs up, and it's cleric.

Well... it's all nice and well that some guy on some forums says a cleric dip always work and gives it three thumbs up, but I'm not convinced. Most of the things mentioned there making clerics so great a dip (shield, heavy armor, martial weapons) are for a large part useless for a monk. I wouldn't recommend to delay monk progression for a cleric of any other domain then knowledge, it would give just a few cantrips and a few 1st level spells / day; straight monk is simply better then imo. (Besides, I wouldn't recommend a cleric dip either for for example fighters or paladins either).

But specifically knowledge cleric 2 synergizes nicely with monk, if you want a skill monk(ey).

[JBento]

You retain the Martial Arts and the Unarmored Defence abilities - whether you want to USE them is another matter.

Martial Arts: Natural Weapons and Unarmed Strikes are two different things (and natural weapons aren't monk weapons). That means that your damage when bearclawing someone's face off is the bear's damage, and your damage when bearkicking someone between the legs is your monk damage.

Unarmored Defence: Unarmored Defence doesn't stack with natural armour, as they're two different ways of calculating your AC and therefore you can't combine the two. Dev tweets say that natural armour isn't armour, so you can still use 10+Dex mod+Wis mod if that's better than the form's AC. No barding for you, though.

[Ardantis]

You retain the Martial Arts and the Unarmored Defence abilities - whether you want to USE them is another matter.

Martial Arts: Natural Weapons and Unarmed Strikes are two different things (and natural weapons aren't monk weapons). That means that your damage when bearclawing someone's face off is the bear's damage, and your damage when bearkicking someone between the legs is your monk damage.

Unarmored Defence: Unarmored Defence doesn't stack with natural armour, as they're two different ways of calculating your AC and therefore you can't combine the two. Dev tweets say that natural armour isn't armour, so you can still use 10+Dex mod+Wis mod if that's better than the form's AC. No barding for you, though.

So what you're saying is that Martial Arts can be used in bear form, just using the base 1d4 damage.

Unarmored Defense may be used instead of Natural Armor, if it is more advantageous (using 10 + your Wis + the beast's Dex).

Those abilities require no ki. If they work while in Wild Shape, Druid may benefit from a one-level dip in Monk.

As far as ki abilities go, you'd need to take at least, say 5-6 levels of Monk in order to have enough points per short rest to use in a combat or two. That gets you up to 1d6 unarmed damage, as well as Ki abilities, Slow Fall, and Stunning Strike. You could at most spend 5 ki per turn at level 6 (1 for Flurry for 4 attacks plus 4 per attack for stunning), so you could go nova with that amount of ki and your base abilities.

If you go with a Wis multiclass, you could go Way of the Open Hand because your DCs will keep up.

If you dump Wis and go martial, you could go Way of the Shadow because the spells don't all have DCs and the teleport attack ability at level 6 doesn't require Wis or ki.

You shouldn't go Way of the Four Elements to multiclass because the ki costs for spells are too high to justify multiclassing.

Just trying to find ways that Monk could reasonably multiclass.

[Ninja_Prawn]

So what you're saying is that Martial Arts can be used in bear form, just using the base 1d4 damage.


Ah, but there's a subtle catch here. Martial Arts still works in bear form, yes. BUT bears can't make unarmed strikes, and their natural weapons aren't monk weapons. So you can never benefit from Martial Arts.

[PotatoGolem]

One of my players is a Light Cleric 1/Monk x. It's not necessarily the most optimized build, but I don't see it being particularly weak. Warding Flare makes him more able to go toe-to-toe with big enemies, and his spell slots are usually Bless or Faerie Fire, both of which retain their usefulness long-term. He's one level behind on monk abilities, but the only time he really felt the hurt was cleric 1/monk 4 when the rest of the party got Extra Attack. In general, I don't think it's super optimal or necessary if it doesn't fit the character, but it gives you enough neat little tricks that you're not shooting yourself in the foot if it really fits your character concept.

[MrStabby]

I never went through with it but I was tempted by Monk 1/death cleric X. Death cleric doesn't get armour proficiency and I did want to get up close for attacks like inflict wounds.

Whilst I liked the style it was only really brining AC to the table, something I could get from fighter/Paladin, a feat which might align better.

[Citan]

Hi! :)

Interesting question, and forumers before me have added several more on the way.

So, my two cents on each one.

Unarmored Defense stacking with Wild Shape AC
Wild Shape tells that you retain any and all other abilities from your class(es).
With that said, as with any other similar class features, UD doesn't STACK per se. Because Unarmored Defense does not give a numeral bonus but tells what your total AC is under certain conditions. So you have three interpretations:
1) Consider the UD as defining the AC calcul whatever happens (so when you Wild Shape you recalculate your AC with the beast's DEX).
2) Consider the UD as inherently related to the human form, so cannot benefit while in Wild Shape.
3) Don't modify UD calculation but let the player use whichever is the greatest between UD and beast's AC.

Both 1) and 2) are arguable, that's why I prefer the third option: doesn't impair the player and no balance problem. ^^

Martial Arts stacking with Wild Shape
Not sure by RAW it works, nor if it's RAI.
Personnally I'd allow it as long as the beast chosen is a humanoïd (basically apes and any other animal that can stand on two legs), easily justifiable fluff-wise and limit cheesiness.
Once I have more experience in how it fares in combat, I may allow it for higher level characters (like a capstone fore being at least 8 in each class) to reward a player for sticking to the concept, as long as animal has a bludgeoning strike.

Classes synergy
Monk's capstone is largely dispensable.
Lvl 18 is excellent but, if you really have a specific build in mind with multiclassing, could be sacrified.
Levels 10 to 17 are a pretty mich different story, each level bringing a nice goodie.

Cleric's capstone is extremely good if you are creative (succeeding automatically on your Divine Intervention demand) and GM plays it as well.
Otherwise, you can do without it.
Problem is, it has very little too much as far as physical abilities goes.

So there is no intrisic synergy between the classes. Precisely because they each cover a different area of expertise, and cover it well. Making them very complementary to each other.

Therefore, you could build a good balanced build, but it will be more difficult to say useful in later levels.

With that said, there is still some merit in taking some levels from one or the other.

Open Hand 3
Brings UD goodies (good if you went DEX for physical stat and don't have heavy armor proficiency) and some ki points to either get out of the way of harm or try to position enemies.
Still have 9th lvl spell.

Shadow 4: two times per rest darkness/darkvision/silence/pass without trace can be useful in many occasions, either for you or your allies. Loses 9th lvl Spell though, it's a big deal.
Shadow 6: the real benefit of the class with free teleport in dim light. Great for mobility and defense. Loses 7, 8 and 9 lvl spells. You're now a good spellcaster at best, no more.

Elements: nothing great here for your concept.

Cleric 1 (or 2): To get Channel Divinity and lvl1 spells: War is wasted on a Monk (only benefit is CD), Life can complement your sustainability, then Light for spells and cantrip or Trickery for spells.
For a one-two levels dips, other domains are useless.

Cleric 6: Much better: you get up to lvl3 spells (Spirit Guardians!!), decent spell slots and second Domain benefit.
From here on, Nature domain for Cleric becomes a great choice: Shillelagh allows you to go nearly single-stat, use a heavy armor, and still be good in melee. You forego Martial Arts (because armor) but can still use all ki-points abilities. You also still have Monk's 14's Diamond Soul which is excellent and 14 ki points to use on your fight.

Any heavier multiclassing means losing a few great, build-defining abilities from one or the other. So it's not plain useless, would just need to very carefully think about it.


Let's give you two quick examples of decent build

Monk Elements 14, Life Cleric 6: needs high DEX, decent WIS. Cleric here is to cast buffs if you want, or rather Spiritual Guardians.
Cast Spiritual Guardians, draw enemies into range (Water whip) or stun them while keeping out of their own range (Fangs of Fire Snake + Stunning Strike), then hit/heal as needed.



Monk Open Hand 14 / Nature 6. Be a beast in melee (you can still cast Spirit Guardians ;)), don heavy armor, use Shillelagh.
You're now a single-stat hammer of justice who stuns enemies with sacred Shillelagh and prone them with fists before letting them being hit by Guardians.
You also have very good defense (heavy armor, lvl6 reaction) and many utilities.

Nothing you coudn't do with more efficient builds, but you won't be severely underpowered as a fighter (don't consider yourself a spellcaster though ;)).

[coredump]

JBento has the right of it. Folks should go re-read his post


BUT bears can't make unarmed strikes,
Do you happen to have any rules support for your claim?

and their natural weapons aren't monk weapons. I don't think anyone is making that claim....


So you can never benefit from Martial Arts.
um.... Why not?

[JNAProductions]

Natural weapons are not unarmed strikes or monk weapons. You can only benefit from martial arts when attacking with unarmed strikes or monk weapons. Pretty simple.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Do you happen to have any rules support for your claim?

The bear stat block in the MM and the fact that Wildshape replaces your game statistics with it. Unarmed Strike is not in the bear's repertoire; it has Bite, Claw, or whatever instead.


I don't think anyone is making that claim....

No, but if it was true, my conclusion wouldn't be. So I included it for completeness.

[coredump]

The bear stat block in the MM and the fact that Wildshape replaces your game statistics with it. Unarmed Strike is not in the bear's repertoire; it has Bite, Claw, or whatever instead.
.

1) The rules also say you keep all of the benefits from features of your class, race, or other source. Are you saying that weapon proficiencies do not fall under this? How about UAS proficiency.

2) At best you can claim that you do not retain the proficiency for UAS, you have provided nothing to indicate the animal *can't* use and UAS.

[MeeposFire]

I don't think the stat blocks are supposed to be that static. For instance if a hobgoblin was disarmed of his weapon are we to believe that since teh stat block does not give an attack listing unarmed strike that they cannot make one? Essentially that is the idea floated here with the stat block needing to say every weapon/attack ever.


Also it makes sense that they don't list unarmed strike for a bear because why would a normal bear use one? It would be weaker than using a claw or bite for sure (since it would only deal 1 damage) so they would never even try unless somehow forced. A monk in the shape of a bear is a whole another story as his damage may be greater using unarmed strikes (though of course it may not be since multiclassing puts monk damage behind).

[Giant2005]

Everyone seems to make statements about a human's natural attacks being different to a beast's animal attacks, but is there anya ctual rules support for that, or is it just a carry-over from a previous edition?

[MeeposFire]

Everyone seems to make statements about a human's natural attacks being different to a beast's animal attacks, but is there anya ctual rules support for that, or is it just a carry-over from a previous edition?

I think it has more to do with that new ruling about unarmed strikes that specifically tries to say they are so different from everything else.

[ZenBear]

Monks can't afford to spend actions on spellcasting. Which is, incidentally, why so many people find The Way of the Four Elements to be so underpowered.

Could you extrapolate here? I don't know much about the Monk class or how it plays, but I'm interested in creating a homebrew divine-magic/healer subclass for it in the spirit of Guild Wars. If I gave them access to cleric spells that use Ki to cast would that really disrupt their gameplay that much? What suggestions would you give to work around that?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Could you extrapolate here? I don't know much about the Monk class or how it plays, but I'm interested in creating a homebrew divine-magic/healer subclass for it in the spirit of Guild Wars. If I gave them access to cleric spells that use Ki to cast would that really disrupt their gameplay that much? What suggestions would you give to work around that?

Well, firstly I guess that was a slight exaggeration. And it assumes the monk is in combat and wants to fight optimally.

Anyway. The monk generally prefers to spend actions attacking, because most of their abilities (Martial Arts, Flurry of Blows, Extra Attack, Stunning Strike, Ki-Empowered Strike, Open Hand Technique, Quivering Palm) trigger off the attack action. If they're not attacking, they're not benefiting from their class features. The fact that you can move between attacks makes this an even more attractive option.

Of course, whether or not you can "afford" to cast a spell also depends on what spells you know. Healing abilities (which do seem appropriate, theme-wise) might not be such a problem, because they don't 'compete' so much with the attack action - the situation dictates which you use.

As for suggestions, I'm not familiar with Guild Wars, but if you're planning to give them Sacred Flame, consider giving them a feature like the eldritch knight's War Magic, or one that makes Sacred Flame into a bonus action on any turn where you attack with a monk weapon. Also, think carefully about how you balance the ki cost of spells. Many people feel the Elemental monk's abilities are overpriced.

[Drackolus]

I'd just like to point out that unarmored defense is not too great in this edition. Assuming you've got a 20 wisdom - which I think it'd be silly not to - you'd be having 15+dex ac, not allowing shields. At 20 wis 20 dex, that's 20 ac, which is not to shabby with all the other unarmored benefits. However, a full set of plate mail with a shield is also 20 ac, even if it's not magical - there is a potential 26 ac if both are +3, vs. the bracers of defense only getting you to 22. And until level 11, unarmed strikes are still weaker than a standard one-handed simple weapon. Unfortunately, barbarians have by far the better unarmored defense, both using a better stat, getting a +4 increase to that stat, and still being allowed to use a (potentially magical) shield. Mmm, potential 27 ac with just one magic shield.

Monks are pretty on-par with other classes in terms of fighting capability, but it would not really benefit you to be a partial monk. As has already been stated, both classes rely pretty heavily on their later level abilities to be effective, unlike assassins or fighters. Still, a dip wouldn't really hurt too bad I think. Flavor > numbers anywho.

[CNagy]

Natural weapons are not the same an unarmed strikes--one is a non-weapon that acts as a weapon, and the other is an action. A bear does not have unarmed strikes, but it can make unarmed strikes because any creature can make unarmed strikes.

MM, page 10: "When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options of the Actions section of its stat block or use one of the actions available to all creatures, such as the Dash or Hide action, as described in the Player's Handbook."

PHB, page 192: "When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise. Many monsters have action options of their own in their stat blocks."

The Attack option is listed, and says see "Making an Attack." Under that heading is listed the errata for Unarmed Strike. A creature that does not use its attack option from its stat block, instead choosing to take the Attack action (under which Unarmed Strike is allowed) can use an unarmed strike for 1 + Str modifier damage (unless they have something modifying their unarmed strike, like martial arts.)

It might seem odd that a Monk/Druid knows how to use a Bear's body for martial arts, but A) this is fantasy, B) Kung Fu is full of styles inspired by animal movements, and C) as shown above, the rules allow it.

[coredump]

Everyone seems to make statements about a human's natural attacks being different to a beast's animal attacks, but is there anya ctual rules support for that, or is it just a carry-over from a previous edition?
Yes.
A "human attack" is done with no weapon.
A bear attack is done with a (natural) weapon.

[CNagy]

Yes.
A "human attack" is done with no weapon.
A bear attack is done with a (natural) weapon.

Only if the bear uses that option in its stat block. The rules are quite clear on this.

[Giant2005]

Yes.
A "human attack" is done with no weapon.
A bear attack is done with a (natural) weapon.

But where is that distinction actually made?
Where does it actually say that a Giant Ape's Fist is different to a human's fist (Other than damage and such).