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View Full Version : Optimization Dragonwrought Kobolds and Skipping Ahead in Racial Subsitution Levels



Endarire
2015-07-23, 06:35 PM
Greetings, all!

Races of the Dragon 100 has the feat called Dragonwrought. I'll just quote this part:


"Prerequisites: Kobold, 1st level only.
Benefit: You are a dragon wrought kobold. Your type is dragon rather than humanoid, and you lose the dragonblood subtype. You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits."

So, it's very RAW and RAI that you become a Dragon type creature instead of a Humanoid-type creature.

But wait! Races of the Dragon 4 has this sidebar near the bottom right of the page, probably written by someone beside the author of the Dragonwrought feat!


"Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype. Races presented in this book that have the dragonblood subtype include dragonborn, spellscale, kobold, and draconic creatures. Should a creature acquire the dragon type, it loses the dragonblood subtype."

So, yes, a Kobold is normally a Humanoid (Dragonblood subtype) creature, but a Dragonwrought Kobold is a Dragon creature. It therefore qualifies automatically for the things on the list. Hello, racial substitution levels!

Races of the Dragon 106 has a Dragonblood Cleric racial substitution level list, and the next page has a Dragonblood Sorcerer level list. Among these are the Dragonblood Cleric9 and Dragonblood Sorcerer7 levels which are meant to be taken at Cleric9 and Sorcerer7, respectively. Does the Dragonwrought Kobold automatically qualify for them? Can a Dragonwrought Kobold take his first level in Cleric and suddenly decide to swap that for the Dragonblood Cleric9 racial substitution level? If yes, I can see why. If not, I want more information on why.

Further evidence is in the Racial Substitution Levels section from Races of the Dragon 105 which says:


"A substitution level is a level of a given class that you take instead of the level described for the standard class. Selecting a substitution level is not the same as multiclassing—you remain within the class for which the substitution level is taken. The class features of the substitution level simply replace those of the standard class’s level.

To qualify to take a racial substitution level, you must be of the proper race. For instance, to select a kobold rogue racial substitution level, you must be a kobold."

According to the aforementioned "Dragon type creature auto-qualification clause" we are of the right race. Continuing...


"You can usually select a particular substitution level only at a specific class level. When you take a substitution level for your class at a given level, you give up the standard class features gained at that level and get the substitution level features instead. You can’t go back and gain the class features for the level you swapped out—when you take your next level in the standard class, you gain the class features of the next higher level as if you had gained the previous level normally."

The phrase, "You can usually select a particular substitution level only at a specific class level" implies it's a preqreuisite without the word "prerequisite" in front. The RAW argument may hinge on this one paragraph's first sentence. Continuing...


"For instance, if you take the dragonborn paladin substitution level for 5th level, you forever lose the class features normally gained by a standard 5th-level paladin, gaining instead the racial substitution class features for a 5th-level dragonborn paladin. When you take the next level in paladin, you gain the normal 6th-level benefi ts of the standard paladin class.

Unless noted otherwise in the description of a racial substitution level class feature, a character who takes a racial substitution level gains spellcasting ability (increases in spells per day, caster level, and spells known, if applicable) as if he had taken a level in the standard class."

Text added just for extra clarification. If this trick works, this Kobold seems to gain the standard spell progression of a Cleric9 (minus what is lost for the racial sub level, but if this trick works, it's worth it!) or the progression of spellcasting that a Cleric normally gets when going from Cleric8 to Cleric9, again minus the penalty.


"A character need not take all the substitution levels provided for a class. For example, a spellscale bard might decide to take only the racial substitution level for 1st level, ignoring the other substitution levels."

This passage proves by RAW and RAI that a character need not take all racial substitution levels, just in case someone thought we had to take these levels in order.

This leaves us with the conclusions:

-Does this trick work? By RAW, I think it does. (Nevermind balance or 'sensibility,' we have rules!)

-If this trick doesn't work by RAW, why?

-If this trick DOES work as I propose, what class features does such a Kobold gain? The text implies it's the less powerful version regarding spellcasting (merely whatever the class would gain for going from the level before that level to that level) instead of the whole package (accounting for the spellcasting penalty, but jumping straight into level 9 Cleric stuff, baby!). There's no mention of what happens regarding BAB or saves, implying that those just change to match the new number, like +6/+3/+6 for the Dragonblood Cleric9's base saves.

-And if this trick DOES work, this seems like the coolest non-Ur, non-Beholder Mage, non-Sublime Chord way to enter a Theurge class!

ekarney
2015-07-23, 08:00 PM
I can't quote the rules on this and I just woke up, so I could be wrong. Very very wrong. also with the way my monitor is set up and my poor vision reading all of this coherently was a struggle, so if I misconstrue this please tell me I'll try to address everything though. (Not your fault, you presented well, It's just I've lost my glasses)
But I was perusing a Paladin handbook for an enemy I was making for my players, and I seem to recall that you can take a substitution level without the previous ones. So for example, you could be a 6th level Paladin, but you could take Red Falcon at level 2, then take standard Paladin on levels 4 and 6. Or you could take Red Falcon at 2, Standard at 4 and Ruby Rose Knight 6. You get the gist.

So if you're asking if you can go DWK Cleric 9, and ONLY take the substitution level on 9th, yes you can afaik.

If you're asking if you can have 1HD and take ONLY Dragonblood Cleric 9. Then no you can't. The general rule for substitution levels is in order to take a 6th level substitution is you need to be about to take your 6th level of that class. A 1HD kobold is in no way about to take his 9th level of Cleric. There's also this clause, that you quoted


When you take a substitution level for your class at a given level, you give up the standard class features gained at that level and get the substitution level features instead.

You don't gain the standard level 9 cleric features at first level, therefore you can't give them up.


As I said though, my books aren't on hand and my vision made this very difficult to read, so I could be horribly wrong.

Red Fel
2015-07-23, 08:08 PM
So if you're asking if you can go DWK Cleric 9, and ONLY take the substitution level on 9th, yes you can afaik.

If you're asking if you can have 1HD and take ONLY Dragonblood Cleric 9. Then no you can't. The general rule for substitution levels is in order to take a 6th level substitution is you need to be about to take your 6th level of that class. A 1HD kobold is in no way about to take his 9th level of Cleric.

This. A Dragon qualifies for anything that requires the Dragonblood subtype, that's true. But in the case of racial substitution levels, you have to be taking that level of that class in order to make the exchange.

You can't take your 9th level of Cleric at level 1. You take it at Cleric 9. A DWK can therefore take the Dragonblood Cleric 9 substitution level at Cleric 9; not before, and not after.

Endarire
2015-07-23, 09:11 PM
FYI: The in-favor-of argument is taking a very silly, literalist claim on the rules, but it's an amusing thought exercise.

However, is the requirement of "you must already be taking this level of this class" a prerequisite that being a Dragon type creature can circumvent? I'm still interested in opinions.

Troacctid
2015-07-23, 09:21 PM
However, is the requirement of "you must already be taking this level of this class" a prerequisite that being a Dragon type creature can circumvent? I'm still interested in opinions.

No, it's not. You qualify to take the substitution levels, but you still have to take them at the usual time. Similarly, dragons would also need to wait until they gained enough experience points to level up before they could take a dragonblood substitution level, and they'd have to wait until every third hit die to take a dragonblood feat.

ekarney
2015-07-23, 09:32 PM
FYI: The in-favor-of argument is taking a very silly, literalist claim on the rules, but it's an amusing thought exercise.

However, is the requirement of "you must already be taking this level of this class" a prerequisite that being a Dragon type creature can circumvent? I'm still interested in opinions.

Agreed, bonus points for creativity at the very least, if one of my players came to me with something this well thought out I'd probably reward them. Not with a 9th cleric level at 1HD but, somehow. Maybe a bonus domain or something.

I too am interested in seeing if it's possible to circumvent though, so in the interest of a good debate (and my personal interest)
Isn't there a clause or something that allows Dragons to level up via age category or size or something? I think it's a semi-popular Kobold exploit for size gain but I've never looked into it.

WhamBamSam
2015-07-23, 09:38 PM
FYI: The in-favor-of argument is taking a very silly, literalist claim on the rules, but it's an amusing thought exercise.

However, is the requirement of "you must already be taking this level of this class" a prerequisite that being a Dragon type creature can circumvent? I'm still interested in opinions.No, it is not. The only time you can even check whether you qualify for the RSL in a meaningful way is when you would be taking the corresponding level of the class in question.


A substitution level is a level of a given class that you take instead of the level described for the standard class. Selecting a substitution level is not the same as multiclassing—you remain within the class for which the substitution level is taken. The class features of the substitution level simply replace those of the standard class’s level.Emphasis mine.

You may always qualify for the RSL, but there are still rules that say when you can take it.

I'll be honest, I absolutely despise this particular bit of nonsense. It only has basis in the RAW if you willfully ignore clear rules on the point. It would be irksome enough if it were just a TO trick, but it gets worse because it makes people believe that other Dragonwrought Kobold cheese is more broken or more suspect than it really is (with a few exceptions) based on the mere fact that it gets bandied about on forums like this. As a die hard advocate and fan of most dragon type/true dragon/kobold cheese, I want the out of order RSL myth dead.

Nifft
2015-07-23, 09:54 PM
Agreed, bonus points for creativity at the very least, if one of my players came to me with something this well thought out I'd probably reward them. Not with a 9th cleric level at 1HD but, somehow. Maybe a bonus domain or something. I'd buy him/her/them a round of beer for the cleverness of the attempt. (But no in-game bonus.)