looking for advice for a friend

[eternal]

so my friend is wanting to play a holy assassin and gestalt is allowed in our campaign.

He was thinking of going rogue3/cleric17//swordsage 20 taking the sacred outlaw feats? I don't think there is a lot of synergy between rogue and cleric and the swordsage may be a bit redundant.

I'm a missing something here? I know there is probably some dmm persist goodness that could come into play, however, are there enough cleric spells to benefit the rogue part of him?

This is 3.5 with pathfinder progression and flaws allowed.

[Elandris Kajar]

If you are allowed to port in 3.X then I recommend Slayer of Domiel, a holy assassin PrC. I don't know pathfinder so I can't tell you more, but swordsage can probably be dropped. Also if it is allowed, I would go Cloistered Cleric for the load of good stuff, and rouges already have light armor only.

I will leave DMM to the experts, and I don't know what PF spells are like.

[shadowseve]

If you are allowed to port in 3.X then I recommend Slayer of Domiel, a holy assassin PrC. I don't know pathfinder so I can't tell you more, but swordsage can probably be dropped. Also if it is allowed, I would go Cloistered Cleric for the load of good stuff, and rouges already have light armor only.

I will leave DMM to the experts, and I don't know what PF spells are like.

Slayer of Domiel is a horrible prc, worse than assassin by far. the requirements just don't make it worth it. He would be better off strait rogue. I disagree about swordsage if you focus on boosts it can add a lot to your class. Not to mention time stands still "As part of this maneuver, you can use a full attack action two times in succession. Take your first full attack as normal. Once you have resolved those attacks, you can then take another full attack action." That's just gravy.

[eternal]

If you are allowed to port in 3.X then I recommend Slayer of Domiel, a holy assassin PrC. I don't know pathfinder so I can't tell you more, but swordsage can probably be dropped. Also if it is allowed, I would go Cloistered Cleric for the load of good stuff, and rouges already have light armor only.

I will leave DMM to the experts, and I don't know what PF spells are like.

The campaign is 3.5 but using path finder for feat progression.

[shadowseve]

Here is a link with some dang good persisted spells. talk to your dm about night sticks.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7543

[adriana]

here is another good thread for persisted spells by class.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7468.0

[Telonius]

For Feats, here are a few you'll want to look into:

Darkstalker
Craven
Adaptive Style
Travel Devotion
Extend/Persist/Divine Metamagic/Extra Turning
Shadow Blade/Gloom Razor


Other feats (particularly Weapon Finesse and the Two Weapon Fighting chain) might be good as well, depending on what sort of weapons you want him to be using or exactly what the ability scores end up being.

If you're concerned about the number of spells lost (3 caster levels is quite a bit), see if your DM will allow Assassin's Stance to qualify you for Sacred Outlaw. (Most won't, but it might be worth it to ask). You could also take a level in Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) to give you another d6, to qualify you with only two lost caster levels instead of 3.

[eternal]

For Feats, here are a few you'll want to look into:

Darkstalker
Craven
Adaptive Style
Travel Devotion
Extend/Persist/Divine Metamagic/Extra Turning
Shadow Blade/Gloom Razor


Other feats (particularly Weapon Finesse and the Two Weapon Fighting chain) might be good as well, depending on what sort of weapons you want him to be using or exactly what the ability scores end up being.

If you're concerned about the number of spells lost (3 caster levels is quite a bit), see if your DM will allow Assassin's Stance to qualify you for Sacred Outlaw. (Most won't, but it might be worth it to ask). You could also take a level in Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) to give you another d6, to qualify you with only two lost caster levels instead of 3.

That's a good point to bring up about assassins stance and sacred outlaw. I'll look into that. thanks for the feat advice.

I think I'm going with these feats so far

1st, Weapon Finesse, (flaws), Two Weapon Fighting, shadow blade, sacred strike

3rd craven

5th extend

7th persistent

9th Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

11th DMM Persistent

13th Adaptive style

15th Greater Two Weapon Fighting

17th extra turning

19th Darkstalker

we'll be fighting a lot of demons and undead. so i figured sacred strike might be useful.

[shadowseve]

I don't think there is anything wrong with his feats.

[thedmring]

there is literately no cleric spells that will benefit a rogue. So taking DMM line is a wast of feats.

[Telonius]

there is literately no cleric spells that will benefit a rogue. So taking DMM line is a wast of feats.

I don't think any Rogue would object to a persisted Divine Power.

[shadowseve]

I don't think any Rogue would object to a persisted Divine Power.

no kidding. Tons of goodies to be found from being a cleric.

[thedmring]

I don't think any Rogue would object to a persisted Divine Power.

so you found one spell. It's still not worth extend, persistent and DMM persistent. that's three feats.

[Extra Anchovies]

so you found one spell. It's still not worth extend, persistent and DMM persistent. that's three feats.

Two with the Time domain.

Also, did you look at either list? Divine Power is far from the only good one.

[ComaVision]

so you found one spell. It's still not worth extend, persistent and DMM persistent. that's three feats.

You sure got them. Tier 1 casting is definitely inferior to rogue levels.

There are some domains that have spells you'll probably want for this character, so you might want to do a Sovereign Speaker dip or something. Trickery is a good one for this theme.

If your DM won't let Assassin's Stance qualify you for Divine Outlaw, I'd dip another SA class so you lose less casting. Rogue/Psychic Rogue/Cleric for example.

[Gabrosin]

so you found one spell. It's still not worth extend, persistent and DMM persistent. that's three feats.

Yeah, I'm sure Divine Power, Righteous Might, Divine Favor, Mass Lesser Vigor, Greater Visage of the Deity, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Elation, and so on totally aren't worth it.

[Valwyn]

I'd say to basically look for combat buffs (people before me have mentioned quite a few) and a few utility ones (dispel, stone shape, etc.). There is also Divine Agility from the Spell Compendium. It's level 5, lasts rounds/CL and gives you a +10 enhacement to Dex (higher than most buffs, I think).

Also, your friend might want to look into the Divine Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9623145&postcount=7), a PrC designed by the Giant himself. It advances both sneak attack and divine CL, and is the only class I know that does so. I don't know if the DM would allow it, but it seems balanced enough to me.

[ComaVision]

I'd say to basically look for combat buffs (people before me have mentioned quite a few) and a few utility ones (dispel, stone shape, etc.). There is also Divine Agility from the Spell Compendium. It's level 5, lasts rounds/CL and gives you a +10 enhacement to Dex (higher than most buffs, I think).

Also, your friend might want to look into the Divine Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9623145&postcount=7), a PrC designed by the Giant himself. It advances both sneak attack and divine CL, and is the only class I know that does so. I don't know if the DM would allow it, but it seems balanced enough to me.

Shadowbane Stalker is probably the best divine CL and SA progression from a book prestige class. (Best I know of, anyway.)

[eternal]

I'm thinking trickery and planning for my domain spells. planning opens up a feat and trickery has some good spells for a rogue.

I'm also curious how assassins stance could qualify for sacred outlaw

Prerequisite
Sneak attack +2d6, ability to turn or rebuke/command undead
.
Benefit
Your cleric and rogue levels stack for the purpose of determining your turning check and turning damage (Or channeling damage and DC if using pathfinder).
Your cleric and rogue levels also stack for the purposes of determining your sneak attack damage bonus.

wouldn't that by itself mean you have to be a rogue or am I missing something?

edit: if I can use assassins stance then I'll just go strait cleric//swordsage and be done with it. I'll only miss out on 1d6 sneak attack and that can be made up by taking a rogues vest, Bracers of the Hunter, and deadly precision weapon enchant

[Red Fel]

I'm also curious how assassins stance could qualify for sacred outlaw

It presumes that you have Rogue levels, in order to get sneak attack. However, it does not actually require them, so technically as long as you have the appropriate sneak attack dice, you qualify.

Here's the problem - your Rogue level is 0. You haven't any Rogue levels. So it would basically mean that your Cleric level determines your turning check and damage (which it already does), and your sneak attack. The problem is compounded by the fact that Assassin's Stance does not give you a level-based sneak attack progression; it merely gives you +2d6 sneak attack damage.

End result is a "talk to your DM" scenario with one of three outcomes: The feat implicitly requires Rogue levels, and therefore you don't qualify for it. The feat does not require Rogue levels. However, since you have no level-based sneak attack progression, it does not increase your sneak attack beyond what is granted by Assassin's Stance. The feat does not require Rogue levels. Count your Cleric levels as Rogue levels and calculate sneak attack accordingly, then add Assassin's Stance on top of that.
#1 is the safe option. #2 is where my vote goes, but note that it makes the feat fairly useless unless you subsequently take at least one Rogue level. #3 is incredibly powerful, because it allows one feat to effectively create a sneak attack progression. Although, to be fair, Superior Unarmed Strike does functionally the same thing with an unarmed strike progression, so it's not inconceivable.

Talk to your DM.

[shadowseve]

I'm thinking trickery and planning for my domain spells. planning opens up a feat and trickery has some good spells for a rogue.

I'm also curious how assassins stance could qualify for sacred outlaw

Prerequisite
Sneak attack +2d6, ability to turn or rebuke/command undead
.
Benefit
Your cleric and rogue levels stack for the purpose of determining your turning check and turning damage (Or channeling damage and DC if using pathfinder).
Your cleric and rogue levels also stack for the purposes of determining your sneak attack damage bonus.

wouldn't that by itself mean you have to be a rogue or am I missing something?

edit: if I can use assassins stance then I'll just go strait cleric//swordsage and be done with it. I'll only miss out on 1d6 sneak attack and that can be made up by taking a rogues vest, Bracers of the Hunter, and deadly precision weapon enchant

The point being that the Prerequisite only states that 2d6 sneak attack and the ability to turn undead be met. Assassins stance gives you that. Clerics are just bad a***'s anyways. Being a holy cleric//swordsage sounds like a great church "hit man" type character to me.

[Troacctid]

What you should do to avoid missing caster levels is go straight Cleric (preferably Cloistered Cleric) on one side, and Rogue 3/Swordsage 17 on the other. Or, probably better, Rogue 3/something else 1/Swordsage 16, so you can hit that even number of non-initiator levels and get 2nd level maneuvers at your first level of Swordsage.


there is literately no cleric spells that will benefit a rogue. So taking DMM line is a wast of feats.

Yeah, that's false.

[eternal]

It presumes that you have Rogue levels, in order to get sneak attack. However, it does not actually require them, so technically as long as you have the appropriate sneak attack dice, you qualify.

Here's the problem - your Rogue level is 0. You haven't any Rogue levels. So it would basically mean that your Cleric level determines your turning check and damage (which it already does), and your sneak attack. The problem is compounded by the fact that Assassin's Stance does not give you a level-based sneak attack progression; it merely gives you +2d6 sneak attack damage.

End result is a "talk to your DM" scenario with one of three outcomes: The feat implicitly requires Rogue levels, and therefore you don't qualify for it. The feat does not require Rogue levels. However, since you have no level-based sneak attack progression, it does not increase your sneak attack beyond what is granted by Assassin's Stance. The feat does not require Rogue levels. Count your Cleric levels as Rogue levels and calculate sneak attack accordingly, then add Assassin's Stance on top of that.
#1 is the safe option. #2 is where my vote goes, but note that it makes the feat fairly useless unless you subsequently take at least one Rogue level. #3 is incredibly powerful, because it allows one feat to effectively create a sneak attack progression. Although, to be fair, Superior Unarmed Strike does functionally the same thing with an unarmed strike progression, so it's not inconceivable.

Talk to your DM.

So I had a little chat with my DM. He is leaning towards option 1. So I'll still need 3 levels of rogue. yes I lose out on caster levels but the whole point of the build was to be an assassin that works for the church who also has divine like abilities. unless there is another option around three levels of rogue.

[eternal]

What you should do to avoid missing caster levels is go straight Cleric (preferably Cloistered Cleric) on one side, and Rogue 3/Swordsage 17 on the other. Or, probably better, Rogue 3/something else 1/Swordsage 16, so you can hit that even number of non-initiator levels and get 2nd level maneuvers at your first level of Swordsage.



Yeah, that's false.

I like your thinking.

that changes things a lot for me. I do want to get 9th level maneuvers for time stands still so I may go cleric20 // rogue3/swordsage 17

[Red Fel]

What you should do to avoid missing caster levels is go straight Cleric (preferably Cloistered Cleric) on one side, and Rogue 3/Swordsage 17 on the other. Or, probably better, Rogue 3/something else 1/Swordsage 16, so you can hit that even number of non-initiator levels and get 2nd level maneuvers at your first level of Swordsage.

So, here's a question.

We're clearly going Rogue-type and Cleric. We're clearly using ToB, because Swordsage is on the table.

... Why not RKV?

I mean, yeah, you have to know Devoted Spirit, but that's easily remedied by doing a quick one-level Crusader dip. And yes, it loses you two levels of Cleric casting, but if that really bothers you, you can just take a Cleric level opposite your first and sixth RKV levels. And because the class itself gives you maneuver access, you can grab Assassin's Stance that way, while enjoying the superior BAB progression of RKV.

So... Is that an option?


that changes things a lot for me. I do want to get 9th level maneuvers for time stands still so I may go cleric20 // rogue3/swordsage 17

"I"? What happened to "my friend"?

[eternal]

So, here's a question.

We're clearly going Rogue-type and Cleric. We're clearly using ToB, because Swordsage is on the table.

... Why not RKV?

I mean, yeah, you have to know Devoted Spirit, but that's easily remedied by doing a quick one-level Crusader dip. And yes, it loses you two levels of Cleric casting, but if that really bothers you, you can just take a Cleric level opposite your first and sixth RKV levels. And because the class itself gives you maneuver access, you can grab Assassin's Stance that way, while enjoying the superior BAB progression of RKV.

So... Is that an option?



"I"? What happened to "my friend"?

miss type of words I should have said I want this for my friend. I'm playing a crusader.
I'll look into rkv a bit.

[Troacctid]

Non-initiator classes count as half an initiator level, so a Rogue 3/Whatever 1/Swordsage 16 has an initiator level of 18, more than enough for 9th level maneuvers.

As for RKV, the standard gestalt rules prohibit dual-progression classes.

[ComaVision]

Is there a reason for Rogue 1 not being better than Rogue 3? The DM said you just need to have a rogue level, right?

(I know 2d6 sneak attack is required but it's faster to achieve that via Assassin's Stance or a dip.)

[Red Fel]

I'll look into rkv a bit.

RKV - Ruby Knight Vindicator - is considered one of the more powerful PrCs in ToB, for one very simple piece of RAW ambiguity. The Divine Impetus ability allows you to expend one use of Turn Undead to gain an extra swift action this round. This creates an amazing advantage for initiators, assuming it takes no action to do so. Hence the ambiguity; if your DM rules that this ability, lacking an action definition, defaults to a standard action, you're effectively trading your standard action for a swift, which could still be advantageous. If he doesn't, however, it basically becomes a swift action generator, which is incredibly potent.

Of course, it's also an 8/10 spellcasting progression martial PrC, which is awesome. So there's that.


As for RKV, the standard gestalt rules prohibit dual-progression classes.

Technically not a dual-progression class. RKV advances spellcasting, yes, but it does not advance other class features. It has its own maneuver progression.

But yeah. You might get a raised eyebrow.

[eternal]

RKV is out. My friend is kinda bent on cleric//rogue something/swordsage now.

so now the question is how many rogue levels to take?

[Troacctid]

Are you playing with LA applying to both sides of the gestalt? Because if not, I'd go Rogue 3/Swordsage 16 and put a +1 LA on that side.

[ComaVision]

Are you playing with LA applying to both sides of the gestalt? Because if not, I'd go Rogue 3/Swordsage 16 and put a +1 LA on that side.

Dark template!

[Gabrosin]

RKV is out. My friend is kinda bent on cleric//rogue something/swordsage now.

so now the question is how many rogue levels to take?

Why Rogue 3? Why not Rogue 1/Spellthief 1, or Rogue 1/Assassin 1, or another two-level pairing that gets you to +2d6?

[Troacctid]

Why Rogue 3? Why not Rogue 1/Spellthief 1, or Rogue 1/Assassin 1, or another two-level pairing that gets you to +2d6?

Penetrating Strike would be the main incentive, but yes, that should be a consideration, definitely.

[eternal]

Are you playing with LA applying to both sides of the gestalt? Because if not, I'd go Rogue 3/Swordsage 16 and put a +1 LA on that side.

what la did you have in mind?