Paladin of coin?

[carrdrivesyou]

Got this idea from a friend of mine. Mechanically, I am thinking paladin of freedom of U. Arc. Was looking for some feedback before this guy get put on paper and into some poor DM's world.

Best Idea for a Paladin I ever
heard was... A paladin of the God of Coin.


He's in it for the loot, and
he makes this obvious from the get-go. He has a very "Greed is good" mentality, seeing it as a necessary force that drives the world- but he draws the line at outright treachery or anything that would undermine capitalism as a whole. So yeah, like an idealistic economist. If he ever engages in acts of charity (which is rare), he never goes small. Why waste 100 GP tossing coins to beggars when you can help fund a homeless shelter for the same amount and make it possible for them to help more people? And, his sacred code of honor forces him to smite (legally or physically) any force that betrays a business arrangement or steals
unjustly- yes, murder counts as theft of a life, and rape is the theft of one's dignity and sense of self. As such, they are a powerful courtroom force. He holds beggars' and thieves' guilds in the highest contempt and will not deal with them except in the most grievous circumstances, this often turns to bite him in the ass.
Alternatively, he holds a more Darwinian view on economics, seeking personal wealth rather than the continuance of economic stability. As such, he is associated closely with thieves' guilds and other criminals, viewing profit as the only source of happiness in the world- like the Ferengi from Star Trek.

[Umbranar]

Sounds to me like a VERY Lawful character.
After all, coins and such result from rules and laws and the "value" a nation or group assigns to such things.
So maybe asks for a Smite Chaos instead of Smite Evil?
Maybe add the Paladin of Freedoms immunity to compulsions aura?

[mostholycerebus]

I would read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged for some background on a what a good person is like, that still believes strongly in a market system. Its easy for an outsider to call a Good Objectivist a bad person, when their inner belief drives them to believe that charity if demanded from society is the real evil. An objectivist can be charitable, but the charity must come completely from within, with no expectation of adulation from society, and only if the charity will help the recipient become more self-sustaining in the long run.

Essentially, such a Paladin would believe in the market system and meritocracy, feel no compunction to help those that fail in the market, and be generous and giving to people who fail due to life circumstances. Those that fail due to life choices, will be callously left to face the results of those choices, no matter how bad or imbalanced.

[LoyalPaladin]

I'm not sure how this really fits a Paladin, it just sounds more like a slightly skewed, yet devout, follower of Tymora really...


Sounds to me like a VERY Lawful character.
Seconded, though not Lawful Good.


I would read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged for some background on a what a good person is like, that still believes strongly in a market system.
Also seconded.

[Twurps]

Seconded, though not Lawful Good.


GREED is GOOD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF_iorX_MAw

[PsyBomb]

Actually works well as a default Paladin, though LP is right that this leans WAAAAAY harder on the L than the G. In order to counterbalance, he would probably be the type to put a lot of effort into making others self-sustaining. This is both through personal effort (training, donations to start jobs, enforcing a fair contract that has been violated, or annulling one that was written in bad faith) and through that of anyone he can get to follow his God's philosophy (this is the guy who would talk the King into opening public farms operated by hiring the homeless in exchange for food, shelter, and a low wage).

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, this is definitely lawful. A chaotic character is more concerned with individuals (the homeless) rather than systems (a homeless shelter).

[LoyalPaladin]

Actually works well as a default Paladin, though LP is right that this leans WAAAAAY harder on the L than the G.
My issue with it being a Paladin is that they fall for committing evil acts, not chaotic ones, that's why I worry about an LG paladin who is focused on wealth. Money is the root of all evil, after all. I tend to worry less about LG paladins.

I feel like this idea fits the crusader better. That could just be me though. We all know how I feel about paladin etiquette.

[Frosty]

How would this paladin feel about Devils and how they use contracts?

[PsyBomb]

How would this paladin feel about Devils and how they use contracts?

He would probably assume that a Devil making a deal is negotiating in bad faith (usually, he will be correct in this assumption). Upon hearing of someone attempting to deal with a Devil, he would warn them of this tendency but not stop them. Upon hearing of such a deal already made, he'd offer to examine the contract and would act to annul it if at all able should it turn out to be misrepresented or otherwise in bad faith.

[LoyalPaladin]

He would probably assume that a Devil making a deal is negotiating in bad faith (usually, he will be correct in this assumption). Upon hearing of someone attempting to deal with a Devil, he would warn them of this tendency but not stop them. Upon hearing of such a deal already made, he'd offer to examine the contract and would act to annul it if at all able should it turn out to be misrepresented or otherwise in bad faith.
This makes me want to write a "Lawyer" base class.

[Frosty]

He would probably assume that a Devil making a deal is negotiating in bad faith (usually, he will be correct in this assumption). Upon hearing of someone attempting to deal with a Devil, he would warn them of this tendency but not stop them. Upon hearing of such a deal already made, he'd offer to examine the contract and would act to annul it if at all able should it turn out to be misrepresented or otherwise in bad faith.
I don't think most Devils will just allow someone to annul a contract. This probably involves "annulling" the devil itself.

[Psyren]

You guys are basically describing a paladin of Abadar. He is PF's LN god of civilization, and wealth, and his paladins defend the roads by which merchants travel and the marketplaces where honest business can be conducted. And yes, his paladins would smite swindlers and encourage homeless to live in properly organized shelters, though he wouldn't consider charity a waste - after all, giving currency to the poor allows them to participate in the glory of capitalism too, though he would be more in favor of a more orderly taxation structure.

[LoyalPaladin]

I don't think most Devils will just allow someone to annul a contract. This probably involves "annulling" the devil itself.
Well... I mean if it walks like a paladin and talks like a paladin, it's probably good at slaying evil outsiders.

[Frosty]

Remember that a Paladin of Coin is not necessarily a libertarian.

[PsyBomb]

I don't think most Devils will just allow someone to annul a contract. This probably involves "annulling" the devil itself.

That... was pretty much my intended meaning.

[ShaneMRoth]

They could be called the Knights of the Unseen Hand.

[the_david]

Have you considered the Coinsword of Shinare? It's a prestige class from Holy Orders of the Stars (Dragonlance) and it seems to be... Not that special actually.

Well, you do get bonus feats and some spells but other than that you only get the Contract ability which is kinda like favored enemy but worse.

[Frosty]

They could be called the Knights of the Unseen Hand.

Knights of unfettered self interest?

[ShaneMRoth]

Knights of unfettered self interest?

Unseen Hand is an allusion to Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations.

[BWR]

Remember that a Paladin of Coin is not necessarily a libertarian.

I should hope note. Indeed, I could more easily see a paladin of Wealth have a somewhat Marxist bent.

[Frosty]

Unseen Hand is an allusion to Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations.

Yes, but followers if Ayn Rand take it too far. See: Bioshock

[marphod]

Money is the root of all evil, after all.

The Love of money is the root of all evil. With caveats that the declination form for 'Root' is ambiguous (qualitative, definite, indefinite) and the greek word for all does not clarify its scope ('without exception', 'without distinction').
(1st Timothy 6:10; KJV translation of the Christian New Testament, among other translations)

(My personal beliefs include God Hates Misquotes and Mis-Attributions. Which, of course, I will attribute to a random passage in the bible/torah.)

I personally find Ecclesiastes 5:10 to be a more accurate quote (Poorly translated: He that loves money and wealth will be satisfied with neither; it is a vanity.), although it lacks the definitive moral judgement. (Although, as 18th century Rabbi Yehoshua Hesjel recounted, in order to value the gift of charity, as a gift expressing love of his God, one must value the gift first.)

This is also a distinct moral belief that is orthogonal to most DnD Morals and Ethics. (It also somewhat contradicts

(As for my rant on whether Objectivists can be Morally Good in the pseudo-unambiguous moral system presented by DnD, that's for another day and another forum.)

[LudicSavant]

A snippet from my pantheon I think the OP would appreciate:

Olidammara, The Laughing Rogue
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/135/0/3/follower_by_sheppard56-d7ihxmg.jpg
Domains: Celerity, Chaos, City, Family, Greed, Halfling, Illusion, Kobold, Luck, Travel, Trickery
Portfolio: Adventure, Bards (different type than Corellon though), Beggars, Birthdays, Competitive Altruism, Daring, Desire, Gifts, Greed, Humor, Laughter, Luck, Materialism, Mischief, Music, Potlatches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potlatch), Rogues, Romance, Street Performers, Thieves, Tricks, Vagabonds, Wine
Theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa31djbUeaw, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSCOYAJd2PE

"I disagree. You want to bring back someone that you’ve lost. You might want money. Maybe you want women. Or, you might want to protect the world. These are all common things people want. Things that their hearts desire. Greed may not be good, but it’s not so bad, either. You humans think greed is just for money and power! But everyone wants something they don’t have."
- Greed, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood

"The world doesn't belong to you! It belongs to ME!"
- Last words of Auleric the Swift, Paladin of Olidammara, before his legendary self-sacrifice.


Knowledge (Religion) DC 10:
Olidammara is the god of desire, associated with celebration, adventure, greed, romance and scoundrels. He is a hedonistic trickster deity who encourages his followers to live life to the fullest, and revel in the joys the world has to offer... even if it means you sometimes have to take what you want without permission.

It is said that Olidammara invented wine as a gift for Moradin... which kept the Soul Forger distracted from his mischief. In art, Olidammara is depicted as a two-faced figure with a twisted smile.

Knowledge (Religion) DC 15:
Olidammara has a bit of a bad reputation, sometimes known as the "god of greed." If you ask Olidammara's followers, those stodgy priests of other deities are all just brainwashed by the divine establishment. What kind of real good god just wants you to be an ascetic, prostrating yourself before them, giving everything of yourself but getting nothing back? Olidammara actually wants to give his followers things. Real things! You deserve things! The world is yours for the taking! Seize the day and keep it! Heck, steal it if you have to. Any man who takes the effort to steal something himself (instead of systematically) probably wants it more than you anyways. And those stealing systematically make thievery necessary, because hey, there isn't enough good stuff to go around when guys like that are involved. Olidammara especially likes when you steal valuables from the wealthy, because then "nobody gets hurts, except for those insurance crooks."

To Olidammara's faithful, greed is not a sin, for it is desire that makes anything precious and sacred in the first place. Behind greed is a love of the fine things in life. Indulge your greed! Protect the fine things in life! Greed is greater than just a love of trinkets. Your mind and body are yours, so take care of them! Your friends are yours, so take care of them! Your society is yours, so take care of it! Your world is yours, so take care of it! In possessing all things, you will do right by all things, for only a fool would harm their own possessions. Possess it all, cherish it all, and take responsibility for it all! Fight for that which is precious to you. True strength comes from having something to protect. To one faithful to Olidammara, joy does not come from within, but rather it comes from that which you surround yourself with, so make everything around you good.

Some temples do collections via gambling, with parishioners betting on what curve the storyteller is going to throw in next to modify the parable they're preaching. It keeps the stories morphing while it also requires that the faithful actually know the dogma and the material. It also funds the temple in a way that's difficult to account for, allowing certain acquisitions to be explained away.

In fact, temples of Olidammara often pride themselves on "nobody falling asleep" during their services, which are often laden with music, entertainment (including things like ledgerdemain "magic" shows), games, and raucous storytelling.

Knowledge (Religion) DC 20:
Olidammaran scripture is updated far more often than most, or at least rarely quoted directly. Clergy are encouraged to mingle amongst temple visitors and relay Olidammara's teachings in plain language. Essentially, the exact opposite of old school Christianity requiring sermons to be given in Latin; Olidammara wants you to spread his message in the contemporary local style.

A core idea in Olidammaran dogma is that Olidammara does not like to be sacrificed to... at least not in the sense most other gods do. Indeed, his only hard and fast law is that none should ever bow to him. One re-telling of a classic myth phrased it thus: "Keep your stuff! I'm not the kind of god who wants you to be ascetic and just worship and sacrifice to him for nothing in return. Screw that noise. I don't want your lame mortal stuff anyways. I'm up here in the heavens with my sweet God bling, man. You wanna do right by me, just gimme a fun adventure story to tell. Go be the trickster hero of an epic poem or something. Teach someone something without letting them know it was you. Or whatever's your style. Hey man if I already knew the story I wanted to hear I would have written it myself."

Olidammarans often emphasize that while greed can be virtuous, being a miser is not, for a miser acts out of fear rather than desire. Following your desires, they say, doesn't mean -hoarding- everything. That's not how real greed works. The problem with misers is that they aren't greedy enough to spend all that money they've got! Gotta circulate that stuff to get anything that isn't a bunch of yellow pictures of old guys. Who wants a bunch of bad yellow pictures of old guys? That stuff only has value in circulation. They don't understand real greed. They are like a dragon, afraid of losing their pile of useless lucre that they sleep on to feel safe. That's not greed. That's insecurity. That's fear. Be brave! Get things! Deck ALL of the halls! Give the BEST present so that you look better than your friends! Get on it scrub!

In fact, Olidammara encourages holidays and celebrations that involve competitive altruism (such as potlatches) or focusing on a single person's desires (such as birthdays, a day all about you!). He also encourages followers to give away everything they own upon their deaths so that they'll treat your memory right (otherwise, what would your money be doing for you? Nothing! Gotta think of the self-interest!).

Despite what might on the surface appear to be fairly similar ideals, Olidammara often quarrels with Bahamut. He understands but disagrees with Tiamat, and tries to help her work through her paranoia issues. Heironeous sometimes tries to chew him out or set him straight, but Olidammara just laughs and likes to mess with him.

Knowledge (Religion) DC 25:
Olidammara is actually way older than some might expect, for he was born the first time a god felt desire, making him literally as old as want. One of the oldest known shrines to any god of the modern pantheon, known as the Burned Circle, honors Olidammara as an enlightened figure. Also noteworthy is the fact that Olidammara seems to show up in almost every culture of almost every intelligent race in the world, though worship of him is rarely dominant anywhere. In mythology, the other gods are occasionally surprised by his depth of experience, control, and wisdom, which seems like such a contrast with his youthful exuberance and mischief. Scholars can't seem to agree on what the first desire was (and Olidammara doesn't ever talk about his age, it is only ever implied), so there is some theological speculation of how old he really is... some even placing his birth back at the moment that Nerull first sought to create disparity. Despite his age, he's still only an intermediate deity, since he has never expanded his portfolio. He jokes that the one he started with keeps him too busy already.


Organization: The Motley Temple
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs10/i/2006/129/1/c/Olidammara_Cleric_by_nJoo.jpg
The Motley Temple is named because it is decorated entirely with relics plundered from a variety of religions, kingdoms, and eras, supposedly all from legal dungeon delving. It is a proud patron of adventurers, but is often suspected of also being a base for a thieves guild. The knights of Heironeous shake the place down from time to time, but always come up with nothing while the head priest gives them her best winning smile and a rude gesture.

Many shake their heads and talk about it as a "hive of scum and villainy" populated by unscrupulous vagabonds and adventurers. The adventurers themselves, however, can find all of their needs met here, and an effective base of operations... so long as they make the appropriate donations to the temple's decor. The Motley Temple is frequented by middlemen who can connect you with just the magic artifact you want or find a place to offload a dragon's hoard, healers who can fix up that pesky petrification problem, oracles who can put you on track to your destination, or whatever an adventurer might need.

The religious services of the Motley Temple are highlighted by raucous storytelling, gambling, song and drink. Parishioners often bet on what curve the storyteller is going to throw in next to modify the parable they're preaching. It keeps the stories morphing while it also requires that the faithful actually know the dogma and the material if they want to get in on the game. It also funds the temple in a way that's difficult to account for, allowing many of the temple's acquisitions to be conveniently explained away. As a base of operations for adventurers, the temple's entertaining services also often include shows of martial, magical, or roguish skills, or stories of dungeon delves.

[PsyBomb]

LudicSavant... That was freaking EPIC. Consider it stolen for my next even vaguely appropriate character, and if you put up the rest of the pantheon by your interpretation somewhere, I'll likely be using it the next time I run a game. Way better than the WotC interpretation.

[Andezzar]

He would probably assume that a Devil making a deal is negotiating in bad faith (usually, he will be correct in this assumption). Upon hearing of someone attempting to deal with a Devil, he would warn them of this tendency but not stop them. Upon hearing of such a deal already made, he'd offer to examine the contract and would act to annul it if at all able should it turn out to be misrepresented or otherwise in bad faith.Are devils really negotiating in bad faith? Isn't the other negotiator supposed to look at what the the contract or the devil actually says and not assume the the devil means what the negotiator thinks he means?

@Annulling the contract by destroying one of the signees: Are you sure that the nine hells have no rules for inheritance? the contract might just go to a devil the signatory owes allegiance.

[daremetoidareyo]

I don't know if a paladin of the worship of abstract power is lawful at all. Sure you can support the mercantile system developed by others, but money itself is predicated on inequality. If anything prevented order from occuring, it would be the attribution of value to the resources we can identify whilst ignoring the ones that we can't. In such systems you wind up with slave states, environmental destruction, and the public trust in stewardship of nonmarket values will always lead to injustice. A paladin of coin is a demon. CE.

[Andezzar]

Are you saying any RL system is CE, because you cannot assign value to a resource you cannot identify?