Warmachine/Hordes

[jguy]

For those who do not know, Warmachine and Hordes is a table top game similar to warhammer and warhammer 40k. In Warmachine, you are a Warcaster with a special connection to steam powered robots called Warjacks. In Hordes you are a Warlock with an innate connection to monsters called Warbeasts. Both products are made by Privateer Press and their rules are compatible i.e. a player with a Warmachine army can play against a player with a Hordes army.

I've recently just gotten into the game, having purchased to Battle boxes (Khador and Circle), relatively cheap products designed to get new players into the game at a discount. If anyone is interested, the Battle Boxes and the Two-Player Battle Boxes are some of the best deals for you buck out there.

I am curious if anyone else in the playground also plays the game?

[Elhann]

I have a growing collection of Cygnarite soldiers.

Actually, I started Cygnar because none of the horde armies caught my eye, and I found that Cygnar has a female caster named "Haley". And even if she is not at all as every playgrounder's favourite rogue, and Haley is actually her family name, that was good enough for me. (Then I found out that every version of Haley is an excelent caster, I'm really excited to try the third one)

The one thing that would improve the game (for me) was if it was easier to build a mostly jack force in the same way that hordes can build a mostly-beasts force (maybe not Legion-like, but something like Calandra's elemental evolution tier list...).

Also, the limited All-in-one army boxes are good purchases.

[JellyPooga]

I've been playing Circle for a few years now and honestly? I'm getting tired of the game.

I first gained interest because it seemed like I was getting a lot of "bang for my buck". It's a bit of an illusion though; you don't need a lot of models to start playing, but to really start playing well, you need to have those extra options available and PP models are relatively expensive (compared to many other manufacturers). I must have spent easily as much on my Circle girls (well...mostly girls) as I ever did on my Skaven army for Warhammer1 and I was playing the latter for over a decade longer than I've been playing Hordes.

Having said that, I enjoy the game on the whole. I'd take that statement with a pinch of salt, though; I find the plethora of special rules for every individual model a trifle frustrating. It annoys me that I not only need to know exactly how every model in my own force interacts with the other models I own, but I also need to study and revise every other Faction rulebook, as well as current updates and the various forums that discuss such things, so I don't fall prey to some stupid "trick" or combo that I can't counter unless I've seen it coming and acted accordingly. The game usually devolves into an hour and a half version of Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Another thing that bugs me about the game is that although at first, it appears to be quite well balanced, it really isn't. 35pts of one thing are definitely not worth 35pts of another. Some Warlock/'casters are just better than others, some combinations of models are straight up superior for the same points cost, etc. It's a game designed for list-builders, not wargamers. There's very few real tactical implications to actual gameplay; use your expertly crafted list to annihilate your opponent before he gets the chance to do the same to you. There's an almost zero chance that an "underdog" player, whether he's such because he's new to the game or because his list is a "scissors" to his opponents "rock", will win. "Official" scenarios do nothing to mitigate this; if anything they promote it.

I'm complaining a lot here, I know and as I've mentioned, I like the game on the whole. I'm just getting a bit fed up of it and the power-creep that has been edging in with new releases. I'm aware it's good business sense to have power-creep in a game like this; after all, how are they going to sell the latest releases if they don't make them better or more attractive than earlier ones, but it's frustrating that if I want to keep up with my opponents, I'm having to spend money on something I've already invested heavily in.

1I should also note that my Skaven army consists mostly of Clanrats and Skavenslaves; I don't consider it a "true" Skaven army unless I've got anything less than 1 model for every 10pts...and yes, that means if I'm playing 2,500pts, I've got a minimum of 250 models on the table. Do the maths on how many boxes of 20 Clanrats that takes and you'll have an inkling on how much I've spent on that single Warhammer army over the years!

[CN the Logos]

I'm just starting again, after an aborted attempt to get into the game years ago with Khador. I'm going with Blindwater Congregation, because **** actual factions with updates and a wide selection of models; none of them are voodoo alligators. I confess, although I've enjoyed what I've played of the game so far, I have little interest in becoming competitive. I mostly just wanted to paint some correctly colored alligators, because as a Floridian, bright green gators offend my sensibilities. The only bright green alligators I've ever seen are the University of Florida mascot and some Disney cartoons. If you ever see a bright green alligator IRL, run for your life. Not because it's an alligator (the big lizards are mostly harmless unless someone's been teaching them that humans = food, you're a small child/family pet, or you go out of your way to piss them off) but because it's clearly been involved in a gamma radiation experiment gone horribly wrong and is about to transform into The Incredible Hulk.

So far I've got fifteen points, but I'm expanding to twenty-five by early next month. Once I'm at twenty-five points, I'll have to play a few games to decide what I want next. If this thread takes off you may see me in here from time to time asking advice.

[Moglorosh]

I ordered the Cryx and Khador battlegroups today for me and my girlfriend. We'll see what happens after that.

[qechua]

Another thing that bugs me about the game is that although at first, it appears to be quite well balanced, it really isn't. 35pts of one thing are definitely not worth 35pts of another. Some Warlock/'casters are just better than others, some combinations of models are straight up superior for the same points cost, etc. It's a game designed for list-builders, not wargamers. There's very few real tactical implications to actual gameplay; use your expertly crafted list to annihilate your opponent before he gets the chance to do the same to you. There's an almost zero chance that an "underdog" player, whether he's such because he's new to the game or because his list is a "scissors" to his opponents "rock", will win. "Official" scenarios do nothing to mitigate this; if anything they promote it.

So, I've only been playing for about 8 months (Cryx and Skorne), but I'd probably (respectfully) disagree with these statements. Certainly, the game isn't balanced below 35 (at 15 it's hysterically bad), and really comes into its own at 50. Additionally, there are some units/solos aren't worth it compared to others in certain scenarios, but I've found it pretty reasonable across the board, and aside from a dud in each faction, pretty much anything can work. There is certainly a heavy list building element, but a good list is no guarantee of victory. Yes, some lists are much better at assassination, but I feel the Steamroller packet (the free official tournament/scenario set from PP for those who don't know about it, they're far better than the book scenarios) does a lot to mitigate that, with a variety of lists giving a variety of playstyles, and the tactic of simply stalling your opponent with chaff is equally valid against Stryker2/Molik Karn assassination runs from downtown. Each list is designed for a certain play style, I agree and I don't think it'll ever escape that, but for me at least, there is enough variety, even within faction (I found at least 3 Cryx playstyles, and I haven't even put every caster on the table).


I'm complaining a lot here, I know and as I've mentioned, I like the game on the whole. I'm just getting a bit fed up of it and the power-creep that has been edging in with new releases. I'm aware it's good business sense to have power-creep in a game like this; after all, how are they going to sell the latest releases if they don't make them better or more attractive than earlier ones, but it's frustrating that if I want to keep up with my opponents, I'm having to spend money on something I've already invested heavily in.

I've not seen huge power creep, rather more exploring areas 'under the bar' as it were. Talking from Skorne's perspective, the (new) Aradus aren't flat better than Titans, but different. In some cases, they're stronger, in others weaker. Again, new releases can be awesome (Soul Trappers), but they can be disappointing as well (Denny3), and new doesn't necessarily mean better. There's still this limit they don't want to cross (I don't think anyone wants to see another Haley2/Denny2 type caster), rather it's expanding outwards rather than upwards. As I said though, I've only been playing a few months, so maybe I haven't seen the full extent yet.


The one thing that would improve the game (for me) was if it was easier to build a mostly jack force in the same way that hordes can build a mostly-beasts force

Yeah, that's an issue outside of Convergence/certain builds. A game about stompy steam powered robots, and at least two factions want to take as few stompy steam powered robots as possible :D From what I've seen, it is getting better, but I think jacks will always lag behind beasts for that, due to the inherent flexibility of beasts.

[JellyPooga]

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, there's still a lot to enjoy about the game. It's just the more I play it, the more frustrated I get at some of the things that niggle at me.

As you mention, there's any number of play-styles within each faction, some that will work better than others, but all valid. As a concept, this is nice to see, certainly.

As for balance; I really have to disagree. Take, for example, the Titan Gladiator as compared to the Gnarlhorn Satyr. For the same points, they each get roughly the same package of special abilities. Ok so far. Then you look at their stats. The Titan has better Str and Arm (I believe...AFB), but lower Spd and Def. Ok, fine. Looks like a pretty even trade. Now add 2 pts (again, I could be wrong, but I know it's something low) of support models to this beast. The Skorne get Beasthandlers (note the plural). Circle gets...a Wilder? The Beasthandlers not only mitigate the Spd deficiency of the Titan, but boost his offensive capability. The Wilder, uh, makes the Gnarlhorn even faster by using his own animus on him? Lets him operate outside the Warlocks Control Range? Nothing all that special. So not only does the Gladiator hit much harder and take more punishment, but can roughly match speed (defence counts for toffee when it's that low anyway) and maneuverability (which doesn't count for all that much anyway when you're both in striking distance anyway). Same points. One wins almost every time (ignoring peculiar dice).

I know I'm massively generalising, but Str and Arm are much more valuable than Spd or Def and it seems to me that they are being valued as similar costs, which does not make for balance. It might also be that I'm playing Circle; generally regarded as one of the harder factions to play, largely as a result of their strengths being high maneuverability, Spd and Def and their weakness being low hitting power (with few ways to increase it, where many other factions appear to have support that mitigates their own weaknesses).

[qechua]

Yup, certainly on paper, the Gladiator is a better front line fighter than the Gnarlhorn, but I think it's how they all fit together. I'd argue that if, as a Circle player, you've ended up in a straight up fight with a Gladiator, you've either got an amazing plan that needs the Gladiator tied up, or you've done goofed. More likely, the Gnarlhown is going to get the charge/slam on the Gladiator, and the Gladiator is in a world of trouble. Either that, or you Stone's it somewhere awkward and watch the counter slam shenanigans. Skorne's thing is crashing into you and making it a straight up fight, while Circle is more slowly forcing the engagement into your favour and suddenly, warpwolf to the face. I feel that's where the balance is, the faction as a whole rather than trying to take things in a small environment.

The whole Def/Spd vs Arm/Str thing I know all too well (hello Slayer chassis). It can be annoying, but I still think it's good, because it makes the high def/spd models much more glass cannon-ey, something (living) Circle beasts do very well (certainly compared to the poor, armless Slayer)

Also, beast handlers don't make a Titan faster, they make it angrier :D One of my friends commented that whenever you read a Skorne beast card, assume it has +2 Str and charges/slams/tramples for free. Likewise with Circle, they may have a lower base Str, but you always assume that it'll always be in a back arc, or hitting squishy supports rather than that nice front line you've put up.

I feel we're probably going into this a little much though, particularly since I'm waiting to see if wave 2 of the Gargantuans are an improvement on wave 1.

[Cheesegear]

I've got somewhere between 80-100 Points of Cygnar.
Markus Brisbane is my main 'caster, since he suits my normal playstyle, and there are too many coincidences in his name for me to pass him up.
When I go to tournaments, I run Elite Caine/Caine2, because he can win the game on Turn 1, and who even wants to play the game anyway, right?

[Elhann]

I've got somewhere between 80-100 Points of Cygnar.
Markus Brisbane is my main 'caster, since he suits my normal playstyle, and there are too many coincidences in his name for me to pass him up.
When I go to tournaments, I run Elite Caine/Caine2, because he can win the game on Turn 1, and who even wants to play the game anyway, right?

Siege is one of my favourite casters is the game, too. When in doubt, apply rocket to the face and laugh. But also, he has lots of answers for many problems while being one of Cygnar's sturdiest casters.
I do agree that eCaine is also powerful (your opponent cannot get his caster closer than 19" to him),but his playstyle is usually pretty simple (survive until an assasination opportunity arises, run a ranger close to the target, let Reinholdt reload your gun, advance into range, feat, good game). Which, now that I think of it, is a good thing in a tourney. (BTW, the "e" in eCaine stands for epic, not elite. Minor nitpick, I know :smalltongue: )
The problem with that pairing is that both Caine and Siege (and also Kara Sloan, but she plays in the small kids league, Siege and eCaine are powerhouses) like to have Reinholdt in their lists, and you cannot have him in both. Who do you pair Caine with?

For non-tourney goers, WM/H tourneys usually requiere 2-3 army lists, with some restrictions (such as no repeating characters). This way you can get two lists to take care of different enemies, and adds another layer of strategic decision.

[charlzheimer]

i have been playing the game for almost 2 years now, having missed the release of wrath by a hair.

i currently play the protectorate of menoth as my main faction (yes, LETS not play 40K cuw of how zealous and xenophobic the humans are and play a ...xenophobic human only religion in warmachine)
..... no wonder i play the protectorate, im a hypocrite.

also i play the thornfall pact (PIGGIES FOR THE WIN) when it comes to hordes.


I love the game, flaws and all but lately some releases have been getting a bit absurd, where some get weak models where others get ludicrously powerfull ones.
i am however of oppinion that all FACTIONS are equally powerfull.
heck recently CONVERGENCE OF CYRISS (coc for short) won a iron gauntlet tournament with a faction people never saw ranking high to begin with.

all in all, Its a fun and great game, i wont say its better then warhammer, but if your upset about age of sigmayer then don't worry.
ITS currently already a running gag that we are accepting them all into the church of privateer press :p

[Moglorosh]

Update: yeah, so now I own the Cryx battlegroup and all in one army box, plus a deathjack and some bane knights and an extra caster and wrongeye/snapjaw and oh my lord have I gone crazy with this game.

[Leon]

Currently not playing it but Ive been collecting Khador since it first came out and currently am very slowly working on a Menoth Force of mostly KE and related units.

Have a small selection of choice Warbeasts from both Trolls and Circle that i like but i cant decide on which i like more and cant afford to have two more factions to play

[ShadowFighter15]

Well, if anyone was every using the cost of the rulebook to avoid getting into WarmaHordes they can't use that excuse any more! (http://privateerpress.com/the-rules-are-free)

As for myself with the game; played Cygnar for ages and have recently switched over to Trollbloods. Trying to avoid double-Warder lists, though; starting to feel those guys are being overused.

[Elhann]

Well, if anyone was every using the cost of the rulebook to avoid getting into WarmaHordes they can't use that excuse any more! (http://privateerpress.com/the-rules-are-free)

As for myself with the game; played Cygnar for ages and have recently switched over to Trollbloods. Trying to avoid double-Warder lists, though; starting to feel those guys are being overused.

You could always spend some (serious) cash and go for Calandra's Elemental Troll Spam Tier list, or Doomshaper's Runes of War. If it is spam what you dislike, though, these list just spam different things...

[ShadowFighter15]

You could always spend some (serious) cash and go for Calandra's Elemental Troll Spam Tier list, or Doomshaper's Runes of War. If it is spam what you dislike, though, these list just spam different things...

Calandra's Tier List does tempt me, except that I think all the Australian retailers are sold out of most of the elemental light trolls (the ones that haven't been re-cast in resin-plastic) and, frankly, I got myself a unit of Kriel Warriors so I'll be damned if I don't get my money's worth out of them.

Borka Kegslayer and Keg Carrier
-Dire Troll Bomber
-Troll Impaler
Fell Caller Hero
Trollkin Champion Hero
Janissa Stonetide
Max Kriel Warriors
-Unit Attachment
-3x Caber Throwers
Max Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes
-Stone Scribe Elder

That's a 35 point list I've worked out; haven't tested it yet since I don't have either of the UAs, the Champ Hero or Janissa. They're on the list, though.

EDIT: As for Runes of War; I'm just not a fan of Doomshaper. Can't put my finger on exactly what but he's just never clicked with me, not from the fluff or the mechanics. I just don't like him.