PCs in dead magic plane w/o weapons. How much easier should the enemies be?

[AnonymousPepper]

Orog Warder, Gray Elf Artificer, Aasimar Awakened Blade. Level 14. Reasonably well-optimized all around.

The situation is that they pissed off some powerful guys, who Wished them onto a demiplane they owned and imprisoned them (without their weapons, but since magic items are useless to them, they got left on). This is a dead magic demiplane, where people equipped with a specific badge (think of it as a continuous item of Invoke Magic; that's not what it is, but that's what it acts like) can still cast and wear magic items freely - so the caster types are all wearing them, and nobody else, meaning those things are going to be rare. There'll be martial-type guards (gunslingers, maybe an initiator or two, things of that nature) but none of them will be wielding any magic gear.

Naturally, the PCs will be trying to break out, and they will be able to, and they'll eventually be able to get their gear and use it, but they're going to have to fight past their guards.

Herein lies my problem.

They're disarmed aside from their fists and denied any magic for the time being. There'll be Healing Salves, but that's it, as far as healing goes, until the party's Wizard/Arcane Savant who saved against all the Wishes and has Heal on his list acquires a badge and meets up with them.

I've never been in this situation before, as a player or a DM. I have no idea how much that affects PCs, and I thus have no idea how much this should affect the strength of the bad guys, who will be armed but similarly without magic. Normally, they can wipe the floor with a single bad guy four levels higher, or equal numbers of similar-level baddies provided they're okay with taking a lot of damage.

Ballpark estimate, how does this affect the CR of enemies they'll be facing?

[Renen]

They are quite screwed. Artificers is pretty much 100% useless, Warder is also pretty much in trouble since he can't use many maneuvers without weapons. Awakened blade is also not exactly in a happy place.
Enemies should be much weaker.

[Extra Anchovies]

Don't make the enemies weaker. Just avoid combat encounters. The party has to stay unseen, or at least make it look like they're supposed to be on that demiplane. Once they get some weapons you can pit them against the mundane guards.

Not every potential enemy has to be level-appropriate. It's perfectly fine to include enemies that would wipe the floor with the party, as long as it's very clear that A) they aren't supposed to be fought and B) there's a way to get past them without fighting them.

[Red Fel]

The thing to remember is that, particularly when it comes to martial characters, WBL constitutes a substantial amount of their power. CR assumes that the PCs have the appropriate WBL allocation for their level, and when you turn the magic off, that +3 Flaming Burst Longsword becomes ordinary masterwork - a lot weaker, and completely unable to handle things like DR or incorporeality. Even worse, when the characters don't have weapons, they are reduced to unarmed combat - and there's a good chance most of them are not proficient.

An otherwise balanced encounter becomes dramatically more difficult when the PCs are unable to deal damage, and lack any magical utility in their favor. CR should be considered substantially increased.

There's a reason that "prison break" scenarios in TTRPGs need to either be extremely unrealistic ("Of course you have full access to your weapons and spells,") or involve very quickly finding the prison armory. Unless the characters are built around stealth and subterfuge, there's basically no way to overcome armed, capable guards with no weapons, no magic, and no skills appropriate to the situation.

[Sagetim]

I sure hope that Warder has broken blade maneuvers. Because with those, he's set. He can punch murder things just fine with things like steel flurry strike and bronze knuckle. Any maneuvers that fall under the Close weapon proficiency can use shields for them, and so on. It really comes down to how that warder is built for how effective he will be without a weapon.

I would have the guards of this prison be normal encounters, just without magical gear. Once the players arm themselves, they'll be on a generally equal footing. It will still be a really dumb idea to try and take things on without a reliable source of healing, but by level 14 they should be pretty capable of jumping a few guards and breaking out of a prison.

[Crake]

when you turn the magic off, that +3 Flaming Burst Longsword becomes ordinary masterwork - a lot weaker, and completely unable to handle things like DR or incorporeality.

Presumably incorporeal undead would also wink out and enemies with DR/magic lose that quality (though you do lose the ability to overcome material-type DR if you're running pathfinder)

[Keltest]

Don't make the enemies weaker. Just avoid combat encounters. The party has to stay unseen, or at least make it look like they're supposed to be on that demiplane. Once they get some weapons you can pit them against the mundane guards.

Not every potential enemy has to be level-appropriate. It's perfectly fine to include enemies that would wipe the floor with the party, as long as it's very clear that A) they aren't supposed to be fought and B) there's a way to get past them without fighting them.

Exactly this. Make it a radically different challenge, where the party has to think their way past encounters instead of bludgeon their way past.

[Troacctid]

Step 1, catch the other guy flat-footed so they can't make an attack of opportunity against you. Step 2, don't try and punch them for 1d3 damage, that's stupid. Try and disarm them to steal their weapon. If possible, make the attempt while an ally is flanking them. Step 3, win the opposed roll. If you're lucky, you now have a weapon and they're the one who's unarmed.

[AnonymousPepper]

Thanks a lot, guys. I'm still working on planning this all out, but y'all have been very helpful.

There's a rogue joining the party this game, so that'll help if they need to be 3sneaky.

[Red Fel]

Thanks a lot, guys. I'm still working on planning this all out, but y'all have been very helpful.

There's a rogue joining the party this game, so that'll help if they need to be 3sneaky.

The thing is, the Rogue can't be sneaky for everybody. If you plan to turn this into a "Rogue does his sneaky thing" session, that means the party will sit around and do nothing while the Rogue goes off to make a boatload of skill checks.

I think sneaking is the party's best option here, but splitting them will likely result in a bunch of bored players.

[AnonymousPepper]

The thing is, the Rogue can't be sneaky for everybody. If you plan to turn this into a "Rogue does his sneaky thing" session, that means the party will sit around and do nothing while the Rogue goes off to make a boatload of skill checks.

I think sneaking is the party's best option here, but splitting them will likely result in a bunch of bored players.

Nah, not at all. More of a "there's a guard right around the corner, lemme see if I can sneak up on him and break his neck without anybody else seeing me" kinda thing. Because nobody in the party has spec'd stealth to the best of my recollection, surprisingly enough. Gimme a little credit, at least. :smallcool:

There's going to be a party split regardless, though, because the aforementioned wizard will be making a visit herself and presumably not directly into a cell like the rest of the gang. Not my doing, hers, because SOMEBODY couldn't just fail one of five high-DC Will saves...

[Keltest]

The thing is, the Rogue can't be sneaky for everybody. If you plan to turn this into a "Rogue does his sneaky thing" session, that means the party will sit around and do nothing while the Rogue goes off to make a boatload of skill checks.

I think sneaking is the party's best option here, but splitting them will likely result in a bunch of bored players.

So the trick here is to make obstacles that cant be snuck around. Perhaps there is a gate that the party strongman can lift even without his gear. A door that needs battering down. Something to play into the strengths of the other party members. After all, unless youre in a party of all rogues, one person sneaking around is gathering information at best without equipment.

[AnonymousPepper]

The artificer brought Shapesand.

Son of a-