Pixies and Polymorph -- Potential Fix?

[rhouck]

It seems like 99% of the outcry re Pixies (and using them via Conjure Woodland Beings) is that they can cast Polymorph. A CR 1/4 creature casting a 4th level spell seems... odd. I know that's not the only spell they can cast (and not even the only 4th level spell), but it certainly has the most potential to upset the apple cart as it can be used, for example, to transform 7th level PCs (when the spell is first obtained) into CR7 Giant Apes.

I have seen it discussed whether Pixies should have a CR higher than 1/4. The difficulty being that CR reflects how difficult it is for PCs to defeat them in combat. At the end of the day, they only have 1 hp and thus can be wiped en masse by any AoE, Magic Missile, as well as a physical attacks.

But when used to help the PCs, their power far exceeds CR 1/4 from the perspective of how much harder is it for the enemy of the PC to defeat the PC with a Pixie ally.

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IDEA FOR A FIX: Change Polymorph's language to now say "The new form can be any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target’s (or the target’s level, if it doesn't have a challenge rating), or the caster's level/CR, whichever is lower."

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So a CR 1/4 Pixie could still cast Polymorph... but they could only ever Polymorph anyone (enemy or friend) into a CR 1/4 or lower beast. That's still very powerful, as CWB with 8 Pixies can still turn 8 enemies into Quippers, but at least then (1) the enemies get a save, (2) the PCs don't get free temp HP, and (3) the PCs combat ability doesn't increase dramatically compared. I'd still probably consider bumping Pixies to CR 1/2.

Thoughts? That doesn't ever seem to nerf a PC casting Polymorph, and only changes the odd scenarios when a super low CR creature is casting it on a high CR/level creature/character. Have I overlooked any unintended consequences here?


EDIT: posters below have flagged that this does not fix Pixies VERSUS PCs. I absolutely agree! They can absolutely steamroll PCs compared to comparable CR 1/4 creatures. However, as they are good-aligned creatures, I don't personally view Pixie vs. PC balance to be a pressing issue. Thus why I am only looking at Pixie AND PC versus OTHER MONSTER balance. Just a point of clarification.

[SharkForce]

for level-appropriate encounters where pixies face a group of PCs, sleep is as bad or worse as polymorph, so the CR needs to go up either way. confusion spam is also a problem, as even a DC 11 save can easily enough be failed if you have to make it 8 times.

they have far too much offensive power to be permitted to have CR 1/4 no matter how you slice it. polymorph is certainly the icing on the cake, but if you only get 2 pixies with your level 4 spell the problem becomes a lot smaller, as you're only getting 2 polymorph spells and the pixies will obviously lose concentration if they take any damage, and the caster of the summon spell presents another point of failure unless they also hide and avoid the fight.

but seriously, a CR of 1/4 is just wildly inaccurate. polymorph is definitely one problem, but it is not the only problem with CR 1/4 pixies (which is not to say that your solution is not a good idea, mind you).

[Ninja_Prawn]

The problem with allocating a CR to pixies stems from the fact that a) they have no defense and b) they have no damage output, which is the standard measure of offense. The CR system is really bad at handling casters of all stripes; pixies are only a particularly troublesome example.

The proposed changes to Polymorph actually look pretty smart, but ultimately they're a sticking plaster. Until you neutralise the poison (the CR system), you'll keep on running into problems.

[GiantOctopodes]

Agreed, Polymorph is far from the only issue on the list. Sleep, Entangle, Confusion, at will invisibility, they're more than a match for PCs when accompanied by other monsters. They're only CR 1/4 in a vacuum, throw in some heavy hitters to clean up on the crippled party and an encounter heavily featuring pixies is all too easy to be a TPK. Flat out, I'm not certain they wouldn't *still* be undervalued at CR1, regardless of their HP.

Edit: And your changes to polymorph look fine, by the way. I just don't think they fix all of the issues that are pixies.

[rhouck]

for level-appropriate encounters where pixies face a group of PCs, sleep is as bad or worse as polymorph, so the CR needs to go up either way. confusion spam is also a problem, as even a DC 11 save can easily enough be failed if you have to make it 8 times.

they have far too much offensive power to be permitted to have CR 1/4 no matter how you slice it. polymorph is certainly the icing on the cake, but if you only get 2 pixies with your level 4 spell the problem becomes a lot smaller, as you're only getting 2 polymorph spells and the pixies will obviously lose concentration if they take any damage, and the caster of the summon spell presents another point of failure unless they also hide and avoid the fight.

but seriously, a CR of 1/4 is just wildly inaccurate. polymorph is definitely one problem, but it is not the only problem with CR 1/4 pixies (which is not to say that your solution is not a good idea, mind you).

I absolutely agree with their being too tough for CR 1/4 versus PCs. I read your analysis in another thread re Sleep etc. and it's 100% true. However, I view it as somewhat of a non-issue (at least for the campaigns I play in) as Pixies are Neutral Good (and not murder hobos) and have thus will not be fighting good-aligned parties. At most, if they are irritated at the PCs, I can see them casting Polymorph or Sleep and then running away. That's not to suggest that WotC should be lazy about balancing "good" creatures, but just that they don't tend to be enemies of PCs.

Similarly, by the time the PCs can summon them to use against others, the PCs are 7th level themselves. At this point, it is pretty universally accepted that Sleep is highly mediocre and of dubious utility. 5d8 hit points (average 22.5) is certainly not going to take out many of the enemies a level 7 party is facing -- at least not until they have taken significant damage.

Confusion scales a bit better, but DC12 and being able to save every turn (and with the results not even always being negative for the opponent), it's less of an encounter breaker compared to Polymorph.

Again, not saying I disagree that they shouldn't have a higher CR (especially if, for example, an evil-aligned PC party is fighting them), just that those other spells seem less encounter breaking when using Pixies via CWB.

And, currently, even with a CR of say, 1, you're getting two castings of Polymorph for one 4th level slot... AND you can send the Pixie far away from battle (concentration doesn't have a range limitation) so that the chance of the spell breaking is nil (thus leaving the caster as the single point of failure). Thus why I was more worried about fixing Polymorph specifically. Upping a Pixie to CR 2 might help the situation some, as the Pixie still has access to spells the Druid does not (e.g., Fly) and more spell slots (due to 1/day castings) so it would still be a useful summon at times even if you only got one.

[Shining Wrath]

My houserule is that when you Conjure something, it can't cast spells of the spell level or higher. If you conjure four or more, they can't cast spells of the spell level minus one, or higher.

Thus a horde of conjured pixies using the level 4 spell CWB can't cast spells of level 3 or higher. And the fix will probably hold for future editions of the MM as more monsters come online.

Now, the pixies can still cast things like Sleep. But that's much less of a problem (given HP limitation and saving throw) than Polymorph.

[rhouck]

My houserule is that when you Conjure something, it can't cast spells of the spell level or higher. If you conjure four or more, they can't cast spells of the spell level minus one, or higher.

Thus a horde of conjured pixies using the level 4 spell CWB can't cast spells of level 3 or higher. And the fix will probably hold for future editions of the MM as more monsters come online.

Now, the pixies can still cast things like Sleep. But that's much less of a problem (given HP limitation and saving throw) than Polymorph.

So if they cast CWB as a level 5 slot and select "Two fey creatures of challenge rating 1 or less" and ask for Pixies, would you allow those Pixies to cast Polymorph? Just clarifying your rule. Then they'd be getting two Polymorphs (4th level spell) for one 5th level slot, but also with some associated disadvantages of the concentration being held by Pixies, so it could hold up.

[SharkForce]

2 polymorphs for a level 4 slot is a good deal, sure, but the thing is, you lose control if the pixies aren't nearby, and they're so fragile that if they are nearby the spell has a major drawback. not to mention that if they aren't near, they are going to be sitting around, visible, with very minimal defensive options available. that's a definite weak point, even if they're not with you.

so, for example, the pixies turn your fighter and rogue into giant apes. which is awesome. until you need to pick a lock, and the rogue doesn't have proficiency, and his thieve's tools merged into the ape so he also doesn't have the tools. or until you need to sneak around, and you've got two huge apes trying to hide behind trees without proficiency or good attributes. or until you need to go through a narrow door.

now, with conjure fey you'd still have the off switch... but if the pixies aren't around, you can't selectively turn it off, you can only turn off both (whereas if the pixies were near, you could turn off one polymorph but not the other). even worse if you spent a higher level spell slot to also have some other minions. not to mention that their other spells are still great.

(on a side note, even if pixies are too much for CR 1, they're definitely not enough for CR 2, and there's no in-between option, so we're kinda stuck with CR 1 at the most).

[Shining Wrath]

So if they cast CWB as a level 5 slot and select "Two fey creatures of challenge rating 1 or less" and ask for Pixies, would you allow those Pixies to cast Polymorph? Just clarifying your rule. Then they'd be getting two Polymorphs (4th level spell) for one 5th level slot, but also with some associated disadvantages of the concentration being held by Pixies, so it could hold up.

No, I use spell level, not slot level. Casting CWB with an 8th level slot does not let you have a ginormous horde of Pixies capable of 6th level spells (not that they have them).

[SharkForce]

No, I use spell level, not slot level. Casting CWB with an 8th level slot does not let you have a ginormous horde of Pixies capable of 6th level spells (not that they have them).

slot level is spell level.

[rhouck]

slot level is spell level.

That was my initial thought, but Globe of Invulnerability offers an exception to that rule so his houserule could be viewed similarly.

[Shining Wrath]

That was my initial thought, but Globe of Invulnerability offers an exception to that rule so his houserule could be viewed similarly.

Spells in the PHB are presented as spells of a certain level by class. These levels control when a caster can learn / prepare these spells. The section on multiclassing also distinguishes between the level of spells you can learn / prepare and the level of the slots available to cast them. That some (not all) spells behave differently with different levels of slot does not mean that spell level is the same as slot level.

[rhouck]

Spells in the PHB are presented as spells of a certain level by class. These levels control when a caster can learn / prepare these spells. The section on multiclassing also distinguishes between the level of spells you can learn / prepare and the level of the slots available to cast them. That some (not all) spells behave differently with different levels of slot does not mean that spell level is the same as slot level.

Yes, that is true for learning spells, but see PHB p.201


When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a
higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher
level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic
missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic
missile is 2nd level.

So by default, CWB cast out of a 5th level slot is a 5th level spell. Thus why Globe of Invulnerability includes the specific exception to that general rule stating "even if the spell is cast using a higher level spell slot".


Edit: note that isn't a dig at your houserule. You can rule it in whatever way you want, thus why I referenced Globe as an example of when that is done. It was just a clarifying point, and one that, either as a DM poaching that rule for my own use or as a player in your games, I would want to know.

[Shining Wrath]

Yes, that is true for learning spells, but see PHB p.201



So by default, CWB cast out of a 5th level slot is a 5th level spell. Thus why Globe of Invulnerability includes the specific exception to that general rule stating "even if the spell is cast using a higher level spell slot".


Edit: note that isn't a dig at your houserule. You can rule it in whatever way you want, thus why I referenced Globe as an example of when that is done. It was just a clarifying point, and one that, either as a DM poaching that rule for my own use or as a player in your games, I would want to know.

OK, semantic correction noted and thank you. The PHB does not seem to use "level" consistently, and you've found a place where using a higher level slot means the spell is considered to be of a higher level.

To clarify my meaning, then, I should say that you can't get spells from a summoned creature that are equal in level to the summoning spell cast at the lowest possible level, et cetera. I think that clears up the wording.

[JAL_1138]

Personally I'd just bump them to CR1. That would seem to eliminate much of the trouble.

[Psikerlord]

Wotc "fixed" this issue by indicating the DM decides which creatures are summoned with this spell. So DMs simply wont allow pixies. Personally I think they should have deleted the bit abuot "obey orders" instead, or used a random table for the summons. Ah well.

[SharkForce]

Wotc "fixed" this issue by indicating the DM decides which creatures are summoned with this spell. So DMs simply wont allow pixies. Personally I think they should have deleted the bit abuot "obey orders" instead, or used a random table for the summons. Ah well.

those are all terrible ideas, because those all make the spells useless.

won't obey orders? then why the hell would you summon them. random table? oh good, now i'm basically guaranteed to not get something that does what i want. great. what a wonderful spell. i'm sure nobody will ever regret preparing this or giving up a precious spell known for it. seriously, at least with the "DM decides" option, the spell won't be complete trash in the hands of some DMs. your solutions just make it bad no matter who your DM is (unless of course the DM just completely houserules the spell to not be a useless piece of junk).

alternately, we can fix the problem by fixing the one monster in all of the summons that is actually causing any problems at all, and which causes problems any time it is used in combat whether summoned or not, and suddenly the summon spells are not a problem. nobody is panicking over wolves or bears or sprites, just pixies. it's been basically obvious the entire time since the monster manual was available that pixies are by far the best summon in the game for the cost. how WotC didn't notice, i have no idea, but they seriously dropped the ball on that. fix that one problem, and it isn't a problem to allow people to get what they want.

[Psikerlord]

those are all terrible ideas, because those all make the spells useless.

won't obey orders? then why the hell would you summon them. random table? oh good, now i'm basically guaranteed to not get something that does what i want. great. what a wonderful spell. i'm sure nobody will ever regret preparing this or giving up a precious spell known for it. seriously, at least with the "DM decides" option, the spell won't be complete trash in the hands of some DMs. your solutions just make it bad no matter who your DM is (unless of course the DM just completely houserules the spell to not be a useless piece of junk).

alternately, we can fix the problem by fixing the one monster in all of the summons that is actually causing any problems at all, and which causes problems any time it is used in combat whether summoned or not, and suddenly the summon spells are not a problem. nobody is panicking over wolves or bears or sprites, just pixies. it's been basically obvious the entire time since the monster manual was available that pixies are by far the best summon in the game for the cost. how WotC didn't notice, i have no idea, but they seriously dropped the ball on that. fix that one problem, and it isn't a problem to allow people to get what they want.

Well the bit about the DM choosing the monster is Jeremy Crawford's ruling in the Sage Advice column. Deleting "obey orders" makes the PC negotiate with his friendly summons, which would make it like Gate or that summon celestial spell from memory. A table is awesome because you can still get 8 x pixies who obey orders (leaving that bit in), but you cant rely on it every time.

I agree another very good solution is just to delete pixies. Really, that means giving a table of what's allowed (otherwise a splatbook will introduce Pixies 2 which wouldn't be formally banned). I'd be cool with that.

Personally of course I think my solutions are excellent and better than "DM chooses", which for me is the worst of the pick. Still, I understand why some would disagree - they reduce certainty and nerf the spell. Anything is better than the current (old?) broken version of player picks 8 x pixies every time (leading to 8 x sleep, 8 x invisible, and so on).

[Wingless]

I think the CR is fine. They won't be killing anybody. They abhor violence. It's right there in their stat block. Regardless of what they are fighting, they choose to flee over anything else. They aren't going to stick around and help other things kill you either. They will disable and run if push comes to shove. That's what they do.

[SharkForce]

negotiate with pixies. that hate combat. yeah, that'll go over well. i'm sure it'll be *reaaaal* useful. or, you know... complete and utter trash. i get those two things mixed up from time to time. and won't it be fun to negotiate with a bunch of bears. i sure hope you can speak bear, because otherwise you're getting nothing out of them.

randomly getting something ridiculously good mixed in with most of the time never getting what you want is terrible balance. doing this to all the summon spells means that most of the time, you just don't get what you want, and you never get the ridiculous OP thing (which is actually probably not as bad, because at least now it doesn't look tempting, so you'll know to avoid the trap). only conjure woodland beings has the one ridiculous option, and it's only a ridiculous option because someone screwed up majorly and gave them a CR far below what it should be.

and i didn't say remove pixies. i said fix them. ie make them not broken. they're a huge problem because they shouldn't be CR 1/4. set their CR to where it should be, and the problem goes away (alternately, not giving them half a dozen very powerful spells and leaving their CR low could also work, but you'd need to change just about every spell they have for effects more appropriate to a CR 1/4 creature... setting their CR to where it should be is a lot less work than redesigning pixies from the ground up).

edit:


I think the CR is fine. They won't be killing anybody. They abhor violence. It's right there in their stat block. Regardless of what they are fighting, they choose to flee over anything else. They aren't going to stick around and help other things kill you either. They will disable and run if push comes to shove. That's what they do.

when summoned, they don't choose their actions. the summoner does. and at that point, the fact that they are officially supposed to be about as much of a threat as a wolf should be setting off all kinds of alarms in your head when you look at what they can do.

furthermore, that isn't how CR works. CR is there to tell you how tough the monster is if you fight it. not how tough it is if you don't fight it. the precise why of the fight is irrelevant to assigning CR. maybe they're mind-controlled by an evil wizard. maybe their forest has been tainted by evil and they've gone insane. maybe you ticked off a druid by cutting down a 500 year old tree just to prove you can, and he summoned pixies to teach you a lesson. maybe you're an evil SOB and you want to kill them to sell their wings to an alchemist for a bunch of gold, and they're just defending themselves because for whatever reason running isn't an option. it doesn't really matter. CR is there to measure combat power, not combat probability.

the fact that they are such an obvious choice, miles ahead of any other possible option for summoning, should tell you that they are not equivalently powerful to the other possible options for summoning.

[Psikerlord]

negotiate with pixies. that hate combat. yeah, that'll go over well. i'm sure it'll be *reaaaal* useful. or, you know... complete and utter trash. i get those two things mixed up from time to time. and won't it be fun to negotiate with a bunch of bears. i sure hope you can speak bear, because otherwise you're getting nothing out of them.

randomly getting something ridiculously good mixed in with most of the time never getting what you want is terrible balance. doing this to all the summon spells means that most of the time, you just don't get what you want, and you never get the ridiculous OP thing (which is actually probably not as bad, because at least now it doesn't look tempting, so you'll know to avoid the trap). only conjure woodland beings has the one ridiculous option, and it's only a ridiculous option because someone screwed up majorly and gave them a CR far below what it should be.

and i didn't say remove pixies. i said fix them. ie make them not broken. they're a huge problem because they shouldn't be CR 1/4. set their CR to where it should be, and the problem goes away (alternately, not giving them half a dozen very powerful spells and leaving their CR low could also work, but you'd need to change just about every spell they have for effects more appropriate to a CR 1/4 creature... setting their CR to where it should be is a lot less work than redesigning pixies from the ground up).

edit:



when summoned, they don't choose their actions. the summoner does. and at that point, the fact that they are officially supposed to be about as much of a threat as a wolf should be setting off all kinds of alarms in your head when you look at what they can do.

furthermore, that isn't how CR works. CR is there to tell you how tough the monster is if you fight it. not how tough it is if you don't fight it. the precise why of the fight is irrelevant to assigning CR. maybe they're mind-controlled by an evil wizard. maybe their forest has been tainted by evil and they've gone insane. maybe you ticked off a druid by cutting down a 500 year old tree just to prove you can, and he summoned pixies to teach you a lesson. maybe you're an evil SOB and you want to kill them to sell their wings to an alchemist for a bunch of gold, and they're just defending themselves because for whatever reason running isn't an option. it doesn't really matter. CR is there to measure combat power, not combat probability.

the fact that they are such an obvious choice, miles ahead of any other possible option for summoning, should tell you that they are not equivalently powerful to the other possible options for summoning.

Very true they shouldn't be CR 1/4, way too much magic ability for that