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View Full Version : Optimization: Who's the Shadiest of Them All?



Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-03, 08:46 AM
Well, ladies and gentlemen, I've been ruminating over various sorts of character builds for some time now, in preparation for an upcoming game, and although I've got some interesting ideas prepared in some respects (as will become apparent), I'm questioning the wisdom of the classes I've chosen, and my feat selection is still very much up-in-the-air.

As I know many of you to have mastery of terrible and eldritch powers far beyond my ken, I am requesting, formally, your aid with this..somewhat unusual build.

I'm not asking you to create said build for me, only for suggestions or pointing-out of options of which I might not be aware or synergies that might not be immediately apparent, so pray don't think me too lazy.

At any rate, to begin: the character at hand is for an ECL 6 campaign.
Out of a perverse desire to play something 'different' I've chosen to apply the Shadow Creature template from Lords of Madness, and the Dark Creature template from Tome of Magic, to an innocent base creature, a changeling.
To summarize the effects of these templates- Shadow is +2 LA, while Dark is +1; In addition to my usual racial abilities, I'll have Hide in Plain Sight, Cold resistance 10, and Darkvision 60; the combination of the two templates raises my base speed to 55ft.; in any conditions except natural sunlight or a Daylight spell, I have total concealment; and I have Fast Healing 2 from the Shadow template. The two templates also grant me the extraplanar subtype.

On the above racial points, I am inflexible. But here's where things get fuzzier and I need help- my initial (and present) plan was to take levels in Psychic Rogue (Wizards website, Mind's Eye) as an entre` into Innate Pretender (Hyperconcious) and Sensory Atavist (Homebrew, Fax Celestis). It strikes me, however, that this leaves me dependant on three abilities to a greater or lesser extent, which is a problem; it also strikes me that I've no real plan to maximize the effectiveness of the psionics/stealth configuration via feats, which is a worse one.

So, then; if you approve of my class and PrC selections, what feats would you reccomend to maximize effectiveness? What powers, what refinements or pieces of equippage?
If, on the other hand, you disapprove, what classes/prestige classes would you reccomend, why, and what might I do to maximize their effectiveness?

To help guide your hand: I must insist that this be a combat-capable, stealth-focused character; how that capability is reached is up to you.
The campaign is primarily wilderness/exploratory, with no evidences of intrigue, and has an artic climate/theme.

So, my boon companions- what counsel have you?

Tweekinator
2007-05-03, 11:01 AM
You could always go with ranger, I guess, seems to fit the stealthy, wilderness campaign you are describing. Perhaps even rogue and/or assassin.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 11:11 AM
For reference: Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) and Sensory Atavist (http://corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/Sensory_Atavist).

Tweekinator
2007-05-03, 11:24 AM
Wow, I'd go with some rogue and then grab that Sensory Atavist.

I don't know about the Pyschic Rogue, I'm at work and our filter does not allow access to the wizards site.

JackMage666
2007-05-03, 11:29 AM
Well, the +3 LA kinda hurts the Manifesting of a Psion. And the sneak attack of a Rogue. And the Base Attack Bonus of a Fighter. And the hit points of, well, anything. I could go on, but I'll stop. I suggest you drop one, if not both (I'd recomend Shadow) - Also, you'd have to be a crazy DM to allow the mixture of templates, since they represent the same thing (You can't see me, I'm from the Plane of Shadows).

Tor the Fallen
2007-05-03, 11:34 AM
Psychic rogue is a good idea, since you can control the ambient light levels.

[edit]
Contro light is a concentration thing, though....

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 11:35 AM
I happen to be the crazy DM. Shadow represents being touched by dark forces (see LoM), while Dark represents being tainted by the Plane of Shadow (see ToM).

Fast Healing 2 helps countermand low HD, and the increased speeds and resistances are probably worth it in this case.

Caelestion
2007-05-03, 11:38 AM
Arctic.

Besides Fax, do you really mean that way around? Shadow = dark-tainted and Dark = shadow-touched?

Draz74
2007-05-03, 11:40 AM
Off-topic, but I just wanted to say that new Lantern Archon Pirate avatar is one of the cooler things I've ever seen on the internet.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 11:43 AM
Arctic.

Besides Fax, do you really mean that way around? Shadow = dark-tainted and Dark = shadow-touched?

Yes, yes, I have that backwards.

Caelestion
2007-05-03, 11:45 AM
Heh. Proofreading for the win! :)

Mad props for the Archon pirate - "I sail the Silver Sea and kidnap nasty demons trying to attack Lunia..."

silvermesh
2007-05-03, 12:44 PM
I would pick up Wounding Attack from the expanded psionics handbook as soon as possible(+8 BAB means it might be a while), ability damage+sneak can be awesome. a level of assassin or blackguard for poison use would also be expedient. throwing in some elocater would be cool, albeit probably less than optimal.
either way id probably go for mobility feats like speed of thought and up the walls. asa rogue type it's best to get in and get out quickly, picking off enemies quickly and disappearing into the dark.

ghost_warlock
2007-05-03, 12:54 PM
Well, the Reducing Level Adjustments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) variant rules from Unearthed Arcana would definitely help this character optimize its manifesting, if Fax will allow them.

I'm really, really surprised that chameleon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/chameleon.htm) is a second-level psychic rogue power. To me, that seems like a no-brainer to make it the same level as it is for the psychic warrior (1st).

Innate pretender looks like a pretty good class.

Feat-wise, maybe focus on the good old Psionic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicWeapon) tree. Stacked with sneak attack, you could deal some pretty good burst damage. You could also expand your powers known list Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) Another good option might be the ambush feats from Complete Scoundrel. Some might simply be duplicating the effects of Sensory Deprivation, though. Rapid Assault from Tome of Battle might also be a good choice.

selfcritical
2007-05-03, 01:05 PM
I happen to be the crazy DM. Shadow represents being touched by dark forces (see LoM), while Dark represents being tainted by the Plane of Shadow (see ToM).

Fast Healing 2 helps countermand low HD, and the increased speeds and resistances are probably worth it in this case.

I'd probably let him use LA buyoff from arcana unearthed to reduce down one of the two templates.

selfcritical
2007-05-03, 01:38 PM
Well, the Reducing Level Adjustments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) variant rules from Unearthed Arcana would definitely help this character optimize its manifesting, if Fax will allow them.

I'm really, really surprised that chameleon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/chameleon.htm) is a second-level psychic rogue power. To me, that seems like a no-brainer to make it the same level as it is for the psychic warrior (1st).

Innate pretender looks like a pretty good class.

Feat-wise, maybe focus on the good old Psionic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicWeapon) tree. Stacked with sneak attack, you could deal some pretty good burst damage. You could also expand your powers known list Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) Another good option might be the ambush feats from Complete Scoundrel. Some might simply be duplicating the effects of Sensory Deprivation, though. Rapid Assault from Tome of Battle might also be a good choice.

It's also 1st level as a Lurk(the sneaky psychic base class from complete psi)
power.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-03, 10:21 PM
Well, folks, thanks to everyone who suggested using the Unearthed Arcana LA buyout rules- since I successfully figured out the math, the aforementioned crazy DM will be letting me use em'.

Given my high mobility, I'm probably going to take the Spring attack tree, however; it just sort of occured to me.

As to psionic feats, I like psionic weapon, but to offset my lower BAB, I'd rather go with Deep Impact, to reduce enemy AC somewhat in most cases; wounding attack might also be good, speed of thought is a very good idea, and up the walls is tempting.

Glad you guys like the pirate archon- it's a Ceikatar for a special someone's birthday, which I'm keeping, cuz' it's awesome.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-03, 11:23 PM
55ft is a decent speed, but it isn't really that fast. What's your alignment? If you don't mind being evil (or neutral with an evil twist) the feathered wings graft from FF can give you a fly speed of double your land speed for only 10K.

Also flyby attack is a lot better than spring attack.

Roland St. Jude
2007-05-03, 11:30 PM
I happen to be the crazy DM....

And in his defense, he didn't let me play an anthropomorphic baleen whale. :smallbiggrin: Although with Shiny doing Dark Creature, Shadow, and LA buyoff, maybe I should ask again! :smallwink:

Merlin the Tuna
2007-05-04, 12:17 AM
LA Buyoff will certainly help a lot, but they still won't help in the short term. In the event that this is a PbP (which seems likely), the short term is really the more important one. With that in mind, making the Psychic Rogue work is tricky-bordering-on-impossible. It's a class with a mediocre HP, mediocre BAB, mediocre Sneak Attack, mediocre manifesting, and good skill points. At ECL 6, you've only got 3 levels of it under your belt, which means you've got cruddy HP (less than Wizard 6), cruddy BAB (again less than Wizard 6), cruddy sneak attack, cruddy manifesting, and mediocre skills. You've got a lot of ground to make up.

You can't take hits, and you have trouble giving them out. That screams "stick with the shortbow." Losing the sneak attack isn't a big deal, since you only will have a piddly +1d6 to start with anyway. Ranged combat does, however make your movement speed not-tremendously-helpful, since the in-combat movement of an archer tends to be little-to-none. Archery also has no synergy with Blind-Fight, which makes Sensory Avatist a not-so-good choice. (Incidentally, Blind-Fight itself gets pretty much canceled out by the Sensory Avatist's class features, which is major lamesauce. For shame, Fax) It'll also take you a while to qualify for and totally neuters your manifesting progression. If you want to use the avatist, stick with a vanilla Rogue.

jaqueses
2007-05-04, 02:08 AM
I do not have either hyperconscious or Lom, so I'm not going to comment on them.


For choosing a dark creature and stealth, good choice for what you get. +1 LA for Darkvision, Restitances, and other goodies along with the skill bonuses almost make this a must for any stealth character that can afford it. Psychic Rogue is solid looking at a glance though if you find yourself pressed for skills, I would say to skimp on disable device a little. You said it was a wilderness so traps are likely to be simple, unless you dungeon-delve. To get into the sensory Atavist quickly though your first two feats need to be alertness and blindfighting, and this being ECL 6 means you might not have another one since your base is changeling. Equipment-wise I would like to know what books are allowed.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-04, 10:06 AM
LA Buyoff will certainly help a lot, but they still won't help in the short term. In the event that this is a PbP (which seems likely), the short term is really the more important one. With that in mind, making the Psychic Rogue work is tricky-bordering-on-impossible. It's a class with a mediocre HP, mediocre BAB, mediocre Sneak Attack, mediocre manifesting, and good skill points. At ECL 6, you've only got 3 levels of it under your belt, which means you've got cruddy HP (less than Wizard 6), cruddy BAB (again less than Wizard 6), cruddy sneak attack, cruddy manifesting, and mediocre skills. You've got a lot of ground to make up.

You can't take hits, and you have trouble giving them out. That screams "stick with the shortbow." Losing the sneak attack isn't a big deal, since you only will have a piddly +1d6 to start with anyway. Ranged combat does, however make your movement speed not-tremendously-helpful, since the in-combat movement of an archer tends to be little-to-none. Archery also has no synergy with Blind-Fight, which makes Sensory Avatist a not-so-good choice. (Incidentally, Blind-Fight itself gets pretty much canceled out by the Sensory Avatist's class features, which is major lamesauce. For shame, Fax) It'll also take you a while to qualify for and totally neuters your manifesting progression. If you want to use the avatist, stick with a vanilla Rogue.

This'll be a PbIM, actually, so long-term is probable. I also level my players quickly.

I'm thinking about changing the reqs on the Atavist, though I'm not sure what to.


I do not have either hyperconscious or Lom, so I'm not going to comment on them.


For choosing a dark creature and stealth, good choice for what you get. +1 LA for Darkvision, Restitances, and other goodies along with the skill bonuses almost make this a must for any stealth character that can afford it. Psychic Rogue is solid looking at a glance though if you find yourself pressed for skills, I would say to skimp on disable device a little. You said it was a wilderness so traps are likely to be simple, unless you dungeon-delve. To get into the sensory Atavist quickly though your first two feats need to be alertness and blindfighting, and this being ECL 6 means you might not have another one since your base is changeling. Equipment-wise I would like to know what books are allowed.

Any book is allowed. My only requirement is that I have access to it.

Rigel Cyrosea
2007-05-04, 10:26 AM
I don't have a lot of optimization experience, but I would like to suggest an oft-overlooked class: the Scout. With your speed, you can run circles around someone, while pounding them with that extra skirmish damage. The AC bonus is always good, and you're just as effective with a shortbow as up close. Plus, it fit's the wilderness theme.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-04, 10:19 PM
Well, gang, your criticisms (mostly valid) and suggestions (constructive, if not adopted) have been taken into account.

My revised build is as follows: equal investment in Warblade and Rogue, with primary martial style being Diamond Mind (Sapphire Nightmare Blade is unbelievably useful for this purpose, and Pearl of Black Doubt raises my already high evasive capability still higher), with some investment in Iron Heart (don't think I need to explain the latter).

As far as prestige classes go, likely to keep Sensory Atavist.

Feats are still to be decided, but will include the obligatory Warblade feats, the qualifying feats for Atavist, and as to the rest- up in the air.

Feat suggestions would be appreciated.

martyboy74
2007-05-05, 09:52 AM
What's your secondary discipline going to be? Shadow Hand, thematically, is ridiculously appropriate, and also will be very handy in gaining/using shadows.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-05, 10:46 AM
Hmm. So the only really tricky thing to answer here, is "How do you get Darkness more than once per day?". Once you can get enough Darkness(at least, enough to counter Daylight spells, or if you can acquire Deeper Darkness and some ability to see in it), you can pretty much go to town.

martyboy74
2007-05-05, 10:48 AM
There's a first level spell in the SpC called Ebon Eyes that lets you see things as well as the ambient light would let you. It more or less negates darkness spells. Night-vision goggles!

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-05-05, 01:28 PM
What's your secondary discipline going to be? Shadow Hand, thematically, is ridiculously appropriate, and also will be very handy in gaining/using shadows.

Unfortunately, shadow hand is available only to the Swordsage, and I don't feel like spending precious feats to get access to it.

I agree, it would be nice, though.

Atomickitkat, I've actually designed a magic item that should allow me to create darkness, in the unlikely event I can't find any non-direct sunlight to Shadow Blend in, whensoever I wish.