Paladin with Shillelagh

[DracoKnight]

Does this work?

Paladin of Devotion 4
Race: Variant Human
Feats: Magic Initiate for Shillelagh, Polearm Master
Weapon: Quarterstaff

Stats:
STR: 10
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 14
CHA: 16

So on an attack roll after casting Shillelagh and activating your Sacred Weapon Channel Divinity feature, it should be: +7 to hit, with 1d8+2 + 1d4+2 + 2d8 (Divine Smite) for damage?

Or did I get something wrong? And I realize that the better build is Lore Bard 6/Paladin 3 :P
But for someone who wants to use this type of build out the gate, this is how it would work?

[GiantOctopodes]

Does this work?

Paladin of Devotion 4
Race: Variant Human
Feats: Magic Initiate for Shillelagh, Polearm Master
Weapon: Quarterstaff

Stats:
STR: 10
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 14
CHA: 16

So on an attack roll after casting Shillelagh and activating your Sacred Weapon Channel Divinity feature, it should be: +7 to hit, with 1d8 +2 + 1d4+2 + 2d8 (Divine Smite) for damage?

Or did I get something wrong? And I realize that the better build is Lore Bard 6/Paladin 3 :P
But for someone who wants to use this type of build out the gate, this is how it would work?

where's the 1d4+2 coming from? Otherwise looks good to me!

And if you're just after Shillelagh based off Cha, it's looking like Tome Warlock 3 is the fastest route to that, rather than Lore Bard. It cuts off Bladelock, but if you weren't planning on 12 warlock levels anyway...

Edit: Duh, polearm master, sorry. Yeah, looks good.

[DracoKnight]

where's the 1d4+2 coming from? Otherwise looks good to me!

And if you're just after Shillelagh based off Cha, it's looking like Tome Warlock 3 is the fastest route to that, rather than Lore Bard. It cuts off Bladelock, but if you weren't planning on 12 warlock levels anyway...

Polearm Master allows you to make a Bonus Action attack with the other end of your weapon with the damage being 1d4. Shillelagh lets you use your spellcasting modifier instead of Strength.

[Draken]

Honestly, you are spending a whole feat to trade a combat stat for another without even incurring into any SADness. Sounds wasteful at the very least.

[MeeposFire]

Just remember that magic initiate does not change shillelagh to a cha based spell. It will be based off of wisdom just like the druid it comes from.

In order to get cha instead you have to invest in 6 levels of lore bard or 3 levels of warlock (tome). Warlock is faster but both require you to wait a while before you get back to basic competence. Unless you start at a higher level and so can skip most or all of the wait I am not much of a fan of the idea but if you are a fan of the long term goal it can be effective.

[DracoKnight]

Just remember that magic initiate does not change shillelagh to a cha based spell. It will be based off of wisdom just like the druid it comes from....if you are a fan of the long term goal it can be effective.

I know it doesn't change it. My math was based off of that. :)

This was just hypotheticals, I was just curious if it would work that way, or not.

Follow up question: Would the Quarterstaff retain the Versatile property, becoming a d10 when wielded 2 handed?

[Ruslan]

Strictly speaking, yes and no. A base Q-staff is "1d6, versatile (1d8)". A weapon affected by Shillelagh is "1d8"; this does not grant, nor take away, Versatile property. So a Q-staff with Shillelagh is "1d8, versatile (1d8)". Sad but true. Talk to your DM. If he's reasonable, you may talk him into giving it versatile (d10).

[Giant2005]

Talk to your DM. If he's reasonable, you may talk him into giving it versatile (d10).

I'm not so sure I'd be willing to label that "reasonable", it is more "generous" than reasonable. After all, it is a magical effect that is increasing the damage, not anything the Paladin would be doing - wielding the Staff in two hands sure shouldn't be making the magic stronger somehow. It is also a level of genoristy that is easily exploited and the DM could come to regret. The Paladin wouldn't be out of line to assume that the same principle applies to all enchantments and thus increases his Elemental Weapon damage from 3D4 to 4D4, or his Improved Divine Smite from 1D8 to 1D10, simply by using his staff in two hands rather than one.

[DracoKnight]

The Paladin wouldn't be out of line to assume that the same principle applies to all enchantments and thus increases his Elemental Weapon damage from 3D4 to 4D4, or his Improved Divine Smite from 1D8 to 1D10, simply by using his staff in two hands rather than one.

I don't see how this follows. The effects of those spells does not increase the damage die of the weapon.

[Giant2005]

I don't see how this follows. The effects of those spells does not increase the damage die of the weapon.

If somebody enchants a weapon with Shillelagh to increase its damage and that magical damage is increased by using the weapon with two hands, then the same principle should work with any weapon enchantments.

[MeeposFire]

If somebody enchants a weapon with Shillelagh to increase its damage and that magical damage is increased by using the weapon with two hands, then the same principle should work with any weapon enchantments.

I get what you are saying on principle (and agree) but the example is slightly flawed. Elemental weapon and the like add a source of additional damage to a weapon attack. Shillelagh is actually different in that it does not add a source of bonus damage but in fact directly changes the damage die of the weapon itself temporarily. Your point would be better served by picking another spell that directly influences weapon damage dice (assuming there are any more of those).

[DracoKnight]

I get what you are saying on principle (and agree) but the example is slightly flawed. Elemental weapon and the like add a source of additional damage to a weapon attack. Shillelagh is actually different in that it does not add a source of bonus damage but in fact directly changes the damage die of the weapon itself temporarily. Your point would be better served by picking another spell that directly influences weapon damage dice (assuming there are any more of those).

This is what I was getting at. This is why I wasn't understanding the Elemental Weapon or Divine Smite example. Those damages are in addition to the weapon damage, not a part of it, and thus not affected by Shillelagh.

[Drackolus]

Yeah, you get less than nothing by doing it that way - strength also lets you use heavy armor, and wisdom gives you -nothing- unless you force it to. If you want to make a paladin use Shillelagh effectively, I would recommend taking 3 levels of tome warlock or, less ideally, 6 levels of lore bard to make it cha. This would mean you don't need the strength. I still think that would be a waste, though with the warlock route it would let you pick up any two other cantrips, as well as things like hellish rebuke and two invocations. You will need 13 str regardless to multiclass with paladin, but you may even want 15 to get full plate (or even just buy a mithril set to remove that requirement). 2 extra 2nd level slots isn't too shabby either. RAW says you can't smite with them. RAW would however limit your paladin slots, since by multiclassing you submit yourself to half of normal, which is actually less than the normal paladin progression. I'd rule against both of those personally.

Also, consider 6 levels of draconic sorcerer + elemental weapon. Probably not worth it, but it's a thought. 3 warlock/6 sorcerer/11 paladin would be interesting though, and only rely on cha for attacks, while an sacred elemental weapon'd shillelagh (have to elemental weapon first, but not really an issue) would be 2x cha to hit and 2x cha to damage, with weapon damage + smite damage + d4 elemental damage to boot. No 7th slots though, so no +3 for elemental weapon. A paladin build only requiring 13 str and otherwise purely cha and con based sounds pretty sweet.




Though, I personally refuse to allow one-handed quarterstaffs in my games on principle, RAW or no. And I definitely wouldn't let you get that extra attack. I know it's fantasy, but if staves are versatile every ******* weapon ever imagined is versatile. Maybe if you have 20 strength you could hold it at the base and swing it like a very long club, or maybe if you happen to be incorporeal and the base can go through you and you do a lot of spinning... but staff fighting is all about momentum, which you cannot in any way, shape, or form get by holding a staff in the middle with one hand. 80% of the work would be done purely with your wrist, so unless your forearms are 20' in diameter you're not gonna do anything with that. The only way you can effectively even wield it is like a spear, and stabbing someone with a blunt end is not incredibly effective. It's as ludicrous as a player asking if they can fire and reload their crossbow in one hand by flipping it in the air while reloading. In fact, I could buy that easier.

You could also make the argument that swinging a staff in two hands is not as effective in terms of structural damage as a mace in one hand, which I would actually agree with. I'm more okay with stretching physics than outright ignoring it.

SOURCE: I staff-fight.

/Rant

That being said, I'm not your DM, so go for it.

[DracoKnight]

2 extra 2nd level slots isn't too shabby either. RAW says you can't smite with them. RAW would however limit your paladin slots, since by multiclassing you submit yourself to half of normal, which is actually less than the normal paladin progression. I'd rule against both of those personally.

Yes, you can. Their ability to use any spell slot was clarified in the errata (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/PH_Errata_1.1.pdf). So they would actually get 2 level 2 Smites every short rest.

[Naanomi]

A bit off topic but... Ranger does well with this idea, since wisdom is so useful for them anyways. A magic-initiate (shillelagh and Magic stone) Hunter is less stealthy but had more tracking skill and better spell save DC than his dex based cousins.

[DracoKnight]

A bit off topic but... Ranger does well with this idea, since wisdom is so useful for them anyways. A magic-initiate (shillelagh and Magic stone) Hunter is less stealthy but had more tracking skill and better spell save DC than his dex based cousins.

This would be a good combo (and I know for a fact it is, I've used it in several one shots), but the reason I was using the Paladin was because of the Sacred Weapon Channel Divinity of the Oath of Devotion. Which allows you to add your Charisma mod to your attacks.

[Drackolus]

Yes, you can. Their ability to use any spell slot was clarified in the errata (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/PH_Errata_1.1.pdf). So they would actually get 2 level 2 Smites every short rest.

Oh, you're right. I was thinking Pact Magic doesn't actually give you spell slots, just slots that act like spell slots. But then I reread it.

[CNagy]

It works, but I've found that this build (my table uncreatively dubbed the Shilleladin) is pretty much either a strictly low level build or for a very magic stingy setting. In practice it is difficult to use it with a shield unless you have Warcaster, because Shillelagh has somatic components and it takes an action to remove the shield and another to put it back on. The duration is low but not really a problem, I can't think of too many times outside of a puzzle-type battle where a battle went past 10 rounds. Edit: Since the quarterstaff is listed as a component, you can hold it in the same hand you use for the somatic components, making removal of the shield unnecessary. So that's one concern taken care of.

Once you get a magical club/quarterstaff, your reasons to use Shillelagh falls off a bit. That first round (unless you can cast it before combat, but the low duration makes that an uncommon occurrence) you are using your bonus action to cast the spell, so you aren't using it to make a bonus attack with Polearm Master--eventually that just got old.

I found it a fun enough build to play without the Shillelagh after swapping Str and Wis back. Re-skin the quarterstaff as a large rod with a basket hilt and go to town smashing enemies with the rod and punching them with the hilt, unleashing smites all the while. Use Polearm Master to smite them in the face when they close the distance. Mix it with a shield and some heavy armor. Mobile is nice, because you can beat them about the head and neck with your smitesaber, then back up a step or two without triggering an OA. If they choose to get close again, another OA for you.