Beguiler vs undead?

[Theodred theOld]

Decided to try something different and play a beguiler in a new campaign. I quickly realized however that most of the baddies were going to be undead. Big problem. Huge, gargantuan problem. Other than charming a cleric for the duration is there anything I'm missing to make a beguiler not suck vs undead?

[mabriss lethe]

About all a stock Beguiler has that can be used against undead is illusions. Depending on your level, you can also use your Advanced Learning to pick up Shadow conjuration/evocation as well. (as undead type offers no special defense vs these.)

As a beguiler, you have UMD on your class list. As a stop-gap measure, grab wands of spells more useful vs. undead.

[Brova]

First, what level are you starting at? A mid level (7+) Beguiler has a bunch of nice options for dealing with the undead. Rainbow Servant + substitute domain will give you stupid good spell access. Poking a knowstone of mass snake's swiftness with abuse magic device is a solid option, though lackluster without minions. Various charm or dominate effects will allow you to recruit any non-undead enemies*. Shadowcraft Mage will let you cover a lot of bases, although it takes until level 11 to take off. But if you're starting at level one, you're kind of in a bad way. I mean, silent image beats unintelligent undead, but you have very little in terms of options when ghouls show up.

Second, exactly how undead focused are you talking? Cults of Orcus which contain both living and undead minions or full on zombie apocalypse. In the first case, you can be fine beating down the humans and turning into a buffbot when zombies show up. In the second case, you are screwed.

Third, how attached are you to being a Beguiler? While a Beguiler is going to have a rough time against undead, a Dread Necromancer is in a pretty good place. Not least because they get command undead at 4th level, and that spell is totally insane in an undead campaign.

If you want a build, I'd go either Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Sacred Exorcist 1 or Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Rainbow Servant 1/[Full Casting - Dealer's Choice] 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/[Full Casting - Dealer's Choice] 7. The first build is trading off earlier access to shadow illusion for full Cleric list spontaneous casting. The second build is a lot more open to adding random stuff you happen to think is cool.

*: The rules for this are less than ideal, both in terms of being unclear, and being stupidly good. I strongly suggest that if this seems like something you want to do, you talk about booting the Mindbender up to full progression and using the charmed allies you get from that. In any case, talk to your DM.

[Thurbane]

- Illusions
- Glitterdust
- Slow
- Solid Fog
- Party buffs
- UMD (Scrolls, Wands, Runestaffs)
- Raiment of the Four
- Song of the Dead feat
- etc. etc. etc.

I'm surprised this comes up so often - Beguilers are far from powerless against Undead/mindless foes.

[Palanan]

I ran into the same exact problem a few months ago, with my third-level beguiler about to face a horde of undead.

Here's my thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388208-Beguiler-vs-Undead-Horde) on the dilemma, which might have some useful suggestions.

.

[Theodred theOld]

I think the unintelligent undead = no saving throw vs illusions may work for a little while. I need to meet and "reprogram" a cleric in the long run though. Somehow the dm was suprised when I walked up to the toughest guy in the town and charm/ diplomacized him to pledge me his sword. Silly dm.

[Inevitability]

Not all spells on a Beguiler's list are for casting at enemies. How about buffs like Blur, Spider Climb, Mirror Image, Haste and Displacement? I'm sure your allies will love you for using them.

[Sian]

If you're mainly running into intelligent undead, "Song of the Dead" (Feat from Dragon Compendium), works quite nicely

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Anyone who can cast arcane spells can use an Eternal Wand (MIC), so get one of Command Undead and maybe one of Web. Just a Wand of Command Undead with UMD is also quite good. Target the biggest/strongest mindless undead opponent immediately, and go from there.

Use the Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) trick, put non-Beguiler spells on it, and make a DC 21 UMD check when you attune to it each morning to cast the spells from it as though they were on your class spell list. Good spell choices include Bone Talisman (archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) (Turning), Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm), etc. Put Unguent of Timelessness on your Bone Talisman (Turning) spell foci and the spell will last 365 times longer when used with them. The unguent never wears off and a spell focus can be reused indefinitely.

Have everyone in the party get a Shirt of Wraith Stalking from the Wraith's Woe set in MIC as soon as possible, it's 6,000 gp: "When you activate a shirt of wraith stalking, you gain the benefit of a hide from undead spell at will, except that undead are not allowed a saving throw regardless of their Intelligence."

[DarkOne-Rob]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the Undead Bloodline Arcana (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/sorcerer.html#undead) available to sorcerers. Perhaps, given that your DM and you have a good relationship (I hope), you could convince them of something to enable you to get access to that arcana, either through multi-classing or exchanging something for it (a class feature or feat, perhaps).