Tumble Skill.

[Yael]

On a recent thread, I learnt about a lie in my world and got my heart broken, so I need to clarify with you playgrounders about this rule.

Standing up (from prone) is a move-equivalent action that does provoke attacks of opportunity, to my understanding, that's exactly what the Prone condition says at the SRD. Now, I know you can use the Tumble skill to stand up as a free action, I have had this knowledge for quite a bit from my gaming group, but I didn't quite knew the exact source from it, now I search for them and find about the horrible truth (that, again, I might be wrong).

I found from the SRD that in the Epic uses of the Tumble skill it is included "Standing up from prone as a Free action instead of a move action", which requires a DC 35 Tumble check. As far as I know, free actions do not provoke attacks of opportunity because every sample action in the "Actions in Combat" section of the PHB/SRD shows a "No" in the "Attack of Opportunity" column, but then I find this statement:


Free actions don’t take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity.
Emphasis mine, and thus the whole point of this thread.

Does Standing up from prone as a free action (of course, reaching the DC 35 Tumble check) provoke attacks of opportunity? Because if it does, I think I should apologize to my fellow Warblade and tell him the truth about how he is misplaying a skill.

[Crake]

It would seem that you are actually correct in that assertion. There is a skill trick available that allows you to stand from prone as a swift action without provoking, if that helps? It's only 1/encounter and costs 2 skill points to get, but it would certainly help out from the looks of it.

[Yael]

It would seem that you are actually correct in that assertion. There is a skill trick available that allows you to stand from prone as a swift action without provoking, if that helps? It's only 1/encounter and costs 2 skill points to get, but it would certainly help out from the looks of it.

I remember it, I just didn't mention it because it does state that you don't provoke, but if I am correct, then I think tonight, tears will be shed.

[elonin]

Since the stand from prone is in the epic section it is up to your DM as to if they'll allow it if you can make the check pre-epic. If so it shouldn't be hard to make as a rogue of 10th level or so (possibly earlier).

[Morcleon]

Does Standing up from prone as a free action (of course, reaching the DC 35 Tumble check) provoke attacks of opportunity? Because if it does, I think I should apologize to my fellow Warblade and tell him the truth about how he is misplaying a skill.

Yes it does. Making the DC 35 Tumble check merely allows for the action used to be a free action rather than a move action. It does not remove the provocativeness of the standing up.

[Curmudgeon]

Since the stand from prone is in the epic section it is up to your DM as to if they'll allow it if you can make the check pre-epic.
That's wrong, on two counts.

Unlike Epic feats (normally only available at ECL 21+), Epic skill uses do not require any other Epic characteristics, nor DM permission.
The Free Stand use of Tumble isn't only in the Epic skill uses. See page 103 of Complete Adventurer.

[JDL]

Remember that you can still use Total Defense as a standard action prior to standing to add a bonus to your AC, or simply remain prone and take the -4 attack and AC penalty.

[nyjastul69]

I believe one could get from prone to kneeling as a move action, without provoking, and then from kneeling to standing, with a move action, without provoking.

[Morcleon]

I believe one could get from prone to kneeling as a move action, without provoking, and then from kneeling to standing, with a move action, without provoking.

Kneeling is not a mechanical position. There is only prone and not prone. Standing from prone provokes, regardless of the motions gone through.

[Curmudgeon]

Kneeling is not a mechanical position. There is only prone and not prone.
Some remedial reading appears to be in order. Check out Table 8–6: Armor Class Modifiers in Player's Handbook on page 151, or the same content here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm). Kneeling halves each prone penalty and bonus, so it's mechanically halfway between prone and standing.

nyjastul69's suggestion is both in accordance with the rules (i.e., there is no listed provocation moving from prone to kneeling, nor from kneeling to standing), and situationally sound advice if you can't risk the AoO.

[Morcleon]

Some remedial reading appears to be in order. Check out Table 8–6: Armor Class Modifiers in Player's Handbook on page 151, or the same content here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm). Kneeling halves each prone penalty and bonus, so it's mechanically halfway between prone and standing.

nyjastul69's suggestion is both in accordance with the rules (i.e., there is no listed provocation moving from prone to kneeling, nor from kneeling to standing), and situationally sound advice if you can't risk the AoO.

Oh, that's interesting. There's no listed action to go into and out of kneeling though.

[JDL]

There's also no action listed to allow assuming the kneeling position by RAW either. Therefore it's up to the DM to adjudicate whether this action is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity. The list of actions in Table 8–2: Actions in Combat in Player's Handbook on page 141, or the same content here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#moveActions) gives only the standard Move Move Action, which provokes, or Stand up from prone Move Action, which provokes. There is no listing for Kneel from prone Move Action which doesn't provoke, therefore the most appropriate assignment for assuming the Kneel position is a Move Move Action, which by RAW would still provoke.

[Curmudgeon]

Oh, that's interesting. There's no listed action to go into and out of kneeling though.
The default action for any body movement is a move action. You'll end up using two move actions for what you could do with just one, except the slower sequence doesn't provoke any AoOs (at least those movements have none listed). Skip Williams states that moving in this fashion doesn't provoke AoOs here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040618a), but as usual doesn't say whether that's an actual rule or one of his house rules. My memory may be faulty, but I think there was a Dungeon adventure which involved archers kneeling behind a low wall for cover, and a statement that moving from kneeling to standing didn't provoke.

[JDL]

Actually, Skip Williams' interpretation is:


"If you're kneeling on the ground, getting up takes some time, but it doesn't make you vulnerable, so you use a move action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity."

Thus spending a Move Action to move from Kneeling to Standing would avoid an attack of opportunity by his logic, but does nothing to address going from Prone to Kneeling, which would still provoke by all written rules. Likewise the archers, being in a Kneeling position, wouldn't provoke if they Stand, but if you tripped them, they would provoke if they went from Prone to Kneeling.

tl;dr - Prone condition isn't the same as Kneeling condition, and nothing says going from Prone to Kneeling doesn't provoke.

[Curmudgeon]

Prone condition isn't the same as Kneeling condition, and nothing says going from Prone to Kneeling doesn't provoke.
The way the AoO rules work, only actions listed as provoking provoke. Otherwise everything not covered, such as scratching your head, would provoke.

The melee combat rules assume that combatants are actively avoiding attacks. A player doesn’t have to declare anything special for her character to be on the defensive.

[JDL]

By that logic, if I were threatened in melee and decided to Burrow, Swim or Fly away from my enemy instead of moving, I wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity either. However all those movement methods are covered under the standard Move, which provokes. Failing other specific rules negating the attack of opportunity for movement in a threatened square, a move action to stand from prone or kneel from prone would provoke.

[nyjastul69]

By that logic, if I were threatened in melee and decided to Burrow, Swim or Fly away from my enemy instead of moving, I wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity either. However all those movement methods are covered under the standard Move, which provokes. Failing other specific rules negating the attack of opportunity for movement in a threatened square, a move action to stand from prone or kneel from prone would provoke.


I guess it's a good thing we ain't in the RAW Q&A thread.

[Khedrac]

By that logic, if I were threatened in melee and decided to Burrow, Swim or Fly away from my enemy instead of moving, I wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity either. However all those movement methods are covered under the standard Move, which provokes. Failing other specific rules negating the attack of opportunity for movement in a threatened square, a move action to stand from prone or kneel from prone would provoke.

Except you cannot "Burrow, Swim or Fly away from my enemy instead of moving" because those are all listed movement modes - you do them instead of "walking" - hence you are moving and will provoke barring standard AoO prevention methods.

[JDL]

And using the same principle, you cannot "kneel from prone instead of standing" because it is a movement action - you do it instead of "standing" - hence you are moving and will provoke.

[Curmudgeon]

And using the same principle, you cannot "kneel from prone instead of standing" because it is a movement action - you do it instead of "standing" - hence you are moving and will provoke.
I think you're very confused here. The whole reason we're discussing this is because you don't have the option to avoid movement-related AoOs with a Tumble check for altering your position in a square, because there is no movement involved. Going from prone to kneeling defaults to a move action, but it is not movement. It's only movement if you leave your square. (Charging is moving, though there are no move actions involved.) If standing up were movement, then a DC 25 Tumble check would let you do that at full speed and avoid AoOs, and we're already in the context where you can make the harder DC 35 check to do so as a free action.

[JDL]

So you're denying that kneeling from prone is an alternative usage of the stand from prone move action in the same way that burrowing is an alternative usage of the movement action?

[Curmudgeon]

So you're denying that kneeling from prone is an alternative usage of the stand from prone move action in the same way that burrowing is an alternative usage of the movement action?
D&D has no "movement action". So yes, because your question assumes something contrary to the rules, I deny anything based on this erroneous premise.

[JDL]

Then please feel free to quote any rule regarding the type of action involved in kneeling from prone, and I'll happily accept your position. However all you have so far managed to provide is reference to standing from kneeling, which completely fails to address the point of being prone to begin with. As for your failure to comprehend the term movement, here's the appropriate quote from the SRD bolded for clarity:


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#movementModes
Movement Modes
Creatures may have modes of movement other than walking and running. These are natural, not magical, unless specifically noted in a monster description.

Burrow
A creature with a burrow speed can tunnel through dirt, but not through rock unless the descriptive text says otherwise. Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing); see the individual creature descriptions for details.

Note that the Move action that forms the portion of the combat rules makes no mention of Burrow as a valid Move action. Yet this is a legal form of movement nonetheless, which would still provoke an attack of opportunity despite the rules for movement not specifically stating such. The same principle applies to kneeling from prone.

[Sliver]

The text that you quoted explicitly includes Burrow as a movement mode, considering 'Movement Modes' is the header under which Burrow is included. Burrow is not a move action though, which is what Curmudgeon is telling you. The move action allows you to move using one of your movement modes. It doesn't exclude types of movement, and no movement type requires a specific action to be used.


Move
The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can’t also take a 5-foot step.

Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).

Burrow is a movement mode. It's listed under the Movement Modes category, so you can't argue that. So... I'm not really sure what you are saying.

Movement Modes aren't actions, just ways to utilize your Move Action. You aren't even quoting text that is related to taking actions...

[StreamOfTheSky]

If Free Stand doesn't avoid the AoO, just get 5 balance ranks and 600 gp boots (or more likely, 900 gp that you tack onto some other boots) of agile leaping from MIC. That will let you stand without provoking an AoO. It will also let you stand as a swift, but nothing forces you to stand as a swift to get the "Avoid AoO" benefit. I often opt to stand as a move with them, just because I often have already used up my swift on some immediate action before my turn. With the DC 35 Free Stand, you can literally have it all.

EDIT:

"If you have at least 5 ranks in Balance, you can stand from prone as a swift action. When standing from prone, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity."

May the gods bless WotC for making those different sentences, or else my claim probably would have been argued for several pages. Who am I kidding, people still will... :smallfrown: