Fighter/Sorcerer Gish Build

[LordOfCain]

Just wondering what the best level progression for such a Gish would be, planning to get Eldritch Knight ASAP.

[ericgrau]

Well there are many ways, but here's 1:
Aasimar sorcerer 6 / eldritch knight 2 / abjuration champion 5 / eldritch knight 3-9.

Aasimar has 3 advantages:
- Martial weapon proficiency to pay for your LA 1, so you don't need a fighter level.
- +2 charisma
- The outsider type. Which means you can alter self yourself and polymorph yourself into outsiders. These tend to be better than other forms and they are good in melee combat. Angels have cool fluff too, plus flight, and can use weapons. Once you get into large size forms simply carry around a large weapon even though you can't actually wield it until you change forms.

Since alter self has a decent duration, you can cast it at a dungeon entrance to save time later. Polymorph needs to be cast in round 1 of combat. Normally I'm against spending a precious round on buffing but polymorphing into an outsider is strong enough to be worth it. At low level even alter self is worth it. Xorn is pretty good to change into.

Other than that keep some buffs up 24 hours such as (greater) mage armor/luminous armor, plus swift action abjurant champion buffs.

[LordOfCain]

PHB races only and surfaces but no LA.

[ericgrau]

Paladin 2 / sorcerer 6 then. 1 level delay but you get amazing saving throws. Use hour/level buffs as much as possible instead. Haste is nice too if you have other weapon users in your party.

[Zancloufer]

Sorcerer 6/ Fighter 1 qualifies for Eldritch Knight if your going that route. Sorcerer 6 grants the level 3 spells and Fighter gets you the proficiency.

Not the best Gish tbh though. You pretty much get some weapon proficiency, up to 20 more HP and slightly better fort and BaB in exchange for noticeably delayed casting, less Will save and reduced CL vs pure sorcerer. Really got to ask if you want to use such a squishy character in combat. . .

[Troacctid]

No reason to pay LA +1 for Aasimar when you can be a Neraph at LA 0.

Edit: Swordsage'd by book restrictions...you gotta mention this stuff up front. :smalltongue:

[LordOfCain]

No aasimar and would prefer equal levels in fighter and sorc.

[LordOfCain]

Only races in the PHB 3.5.

[LordOfCain]

Book restrictions: Core only 3.5 only PHB races.

[ericgrau]

No aasimar and would prefer equal levels in fighter and sorc.

That's what eldritch knight is for... to get both without a penalty. More than 1 level of fighter is usually shooting yourself in the foot. If you don't want paladin then do fighter 1 / sorcerer 6 / eldritch knight.

Gear:
1. Get a lesser rod of extend spell ASAP to extend your hour/level spells. Use a lot of those to leave you more time to swing your weapon.

Spells:
1: Mage armor, unseen servant, feather fall, tenser's floating disk
2: false life, web
3: haste. Later get greater magic weapon then fireball.

Round 1 caste haste or web depending on the situation. At higher levels fireball is sometimes good too. The idea behind web or fireball is to deal with groups. Especially large low hp groups for fireball; those that tend to die in 1 hit. Haste lets your party focus several attacks on smaller numbers of foes who take time to kill. While full attacks are less useful against foes that die in 1 hit.

[LordOfCain]

XP penalty is enforced FYI.

[ericgrau]

XP penalty is enforced FYI.

Human or dwarf then, to avoid the penalty even with fighter 1 / sorcerer 6. Even with a dwarf and charisma penalty not many of the spells you want have saves anyway, or they are still good even on a passed save. Just make sure you keep your charisma at at least the minimum of 10+spell level after items. So 15-2=13 would be ideal, or at least 12 then at super high level you can boost it with a tome of charisma. Human is nice for the feat but in core only you don't get many good feat choices so dwarf might be better.

[LordOfCain]

Wood elf, hit me. Just wondering how this would turn out...

[ericgrau]

That's actually a monster manual race not a phb race. Is your DM ok with that? If he is then it's good. +2 strength never hurts on melee. Then you would go ranger 1 / sorcerer 6 to avoid xp penalty. Favored enemy undead is usually a safe bet if you don't know what kind of monsters you will face.

[Troacctid]

For a wood elf, replace Fighter with Ranger, I guess. This character sounds pretty bad.

[LordOfCain]

Subraces without LA in the MM are fine.

[ericgrau]

For a wood elf, replace Fighter with Ranger, I guess. This character sounds pretty bad.
It's all relative. If he's playing with nothing but core allies it's not bad.

It will be squishy at low level though. Mage armor and false life are your best friends. Get them up all day ASAP. If you're playing from level 1 you might even consider a chain shirt temporarily. Especially if you want to swing a weapon all day anyway. Or go armorless and weaponless and cast spells like sleep and web from the back until you level up a bit more.

[LordOfCain]

Wood elf ranger, high elf wizard, dwarf barbarian, half elf rogue, and half elf bard.

[LordOfCain]

The ranger raised the dwarf, so he is relatively accepted.

[LordOfCain]

I was thinking Fighter 7/Sorceror 7/Eldritch 6. It does not have to be optimized.

[Troacctid]

Sounds like you're going to be a worse fighter than the Barbarian or Ranger and a worse caster than the Wizard (and possibly the Bard, depending on the party level). If you're not starting at a fairly high level, you'll probably be the weakest character in the party.

[LordOfCain]

We are starting at level 1.

[Zancloufer]

I was thinking Fighter 7/Sorceror 7/Eldritch 6. It does not have to be optimized.

Optimization aside NOT taking all 10 levels of Eldrich Knight is just plain silly. Start with 6 Sorc levels, Fighter dip for proficiency (not to mention a free feat) and go Eldrich Knight for the next 10. Simple, straight forward If the game is still going past level 17 you can pick up 3 more sorcerer levels. While this build makes you less a true-gish, and more a Sorcerer with BAB, there are no really good gish options in core. Just buff up with spells to cover your lack of HP/BAB if needed.

[Malroth]

We are starting at level 1.

Prepare to be a worse caster than the ranger and a worse fighter than the wizard, the rest of the thread was reccomending maxing caster level for a reason.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, see, the problem is, your spells aren't going to help you fight better. There just aren't any low-level sorcerer spells in core that do that. I mean, what are you taking? Mage Armor? You spent a known spell to get worse AC than real armor. Bull's Strength? You spent your whole turn to get +2 to hit and damage, which a single-class Fighter would have already had via BAB. Haste? By the time you can get it, the Bard and the Wizard already have it, and they can cast it on the whole party, so casting it yourself is pointless. Alter Self? Okay, that one's actually not too bad, I guess, but still.

So you're not getting an advantage in fighting. You're mostly just tanking your HP and BAB, making yourself actively worse in melee. Meanwhile, since you're down at least two caster levels, plus another effective level on top of that thanks to the sorcerer's delayed spell progression, you're going to suck at casting. The best you can do is cast the same spells as the Wizard, except three levels later.

Now, if you venture outside of core, there are some real, viable options for making a sorcerer gish, even at low levels. But with your restrictions, it's a combination that manages to somehow be weaker than the sum of its parts.

Weren't you going to be a cleric? What happened to that idea? Clerics are actually quite solid for gishing in core. They have the stats to back it up, and your party already has two arcane casters and no divine casters, so you'll fit in better.

[LordOfCain]

What happened to the cleric was DM vetoes.

[A_S]

Can you give us any info on why you want to use an even Fighter/Sorcerer level split? Like, is there something you want your character to be able to do that requires lots of Fighter levels?

The reason people in the thread are pushing back on that is because, as Troacctid explains above, going with an even split like that will just make you terrible at both casting and fighting.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Here's a suggestion: Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer). Probably the simplest gish-in-a-can out there: d8 HD, medium BAB, casting in light armor, proficiency with light armor and one martial weapon. You wind up with decent spells/day and a full caster level, albeit without that many spells known.

If non-core/SRD classes are on the table, Duskblade (PHB 2) is good and simple. Take a dip of Sandshaper (Sandstorm) for a bunch of extra spells known, and use Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) to boost your melee further.

If you're limited to PHB classes and no variants... I'd start with your level of fighter-- that should help carry you through the lowest, most painful levels for casters. Ranger would be a better option, most likely-- better skill points, and the armor proficiency doesn't matter. After that, straight sorcerer 6 to pick up the casting, then veer into Eldrich Knight. You might splash another level of fighter in there if you need the extra feat for something, but if you're going core-only there really aren't any good uses for it.

[ericgrau]

Can you give us any info on why you want to use an even Fighter/Sorcerer level split? Like, is there something you want your character to be able to do that requires lots of Fighter levels?

The reason people in the thread are pushing back on that is because, as Troacctid explains above, going with an even split like that will just make you terrible at both casting and fighting.
Sorry I misread this. I deleted my previous post.

If you do fighter 7/sorcerer 7 it's a waste when you could do fighter 1 / sorcerer 6/eldritch knight 7. The second one has both a higher caster level and a higher BAB. As long as your favored class is fighter, for example from being a human or dwarf, you won't get an xp penalty. If you choose wood elf then your favored class is ranger so you take ranger and also avoid the xp penalty. You can still switch evenly between fighting and casting and the second one if you want.

One more minor thing: when you fall behind in level from the xp penalty, you also get bonus xp for being behind so it evens out and you only lose 1 level and then you get normal xp after that. So even if you couldn't avoid the xp penalty it would still be better than fighter 7 / sorcerer 7 because that effectively puts you 3-6 levels behind while the xp penalty only puts you 1 level behind.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spells per Day
From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

Eldritch Knight does not grant you additional spells known! At Fighter 1/ Sorcerer 6/ Eldritch Knight 10 you would have the spells per day and caster level of a Sorcerer 15, but the spells known of a Sorcerer 6.

My advice would be to go Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8, which gets 18/20 Sorcerer spellcasting and 16/20 BAB, with 4d4+7d10+9d8 HD. Get the Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) trick, put (Greater) Luminous Armor on that if possible but otherwise spend a feat on Arcane Preparation to be able to cast that, and be sure to learn Wings of Cover and Wraithstrike. Ideally you would want to use Illumian (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=2) in Races of Destiny with the Naenhoon runeword, since that will enable you to use Persistent Spell by spending turn undead uses once you gain Sacred Exorcist. Spontaneously cast spells with metamagic only take longer to cast if the spell's normal casting time is a standard action or longer, so spells with a swift action casting time such as Wraithstrike still have the same casting time with metamagic applied, such as (Lesser Rod of) Extend Spell. Use a two-handed weapon and get Power Attack, and Wraithstrike will allow you to ignore most of your opponents' AC bonuses.

[LordOfCain]

What about Dragon Disciple instead of Eldritch Knight???

[Pluto!]

Even Fighter 4/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 10 is considerably better than a straight 1:1 match. The 5th Fighter level doesn't even net a higher BA than the 6th level of Sorc.

I think if I were going for a non-Lawful core sorc gish playable at all levels, I would:

First see if I couldn't tweak Bard to have fewer skills, d8 HD, Sorc spell list, bonus feats in place of music at levels 1,2,5,8... (ie. the Psychic Warrior to the Sorcerer's Psion) and play that.

If that wasn't acceptable for whatever reason, I would probably try Human Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Sorcerer 7. 3 dumb fighting levels because they frankly make melee less terrible for characters with 5 Sorc levels. Barbarian because the extra 2 HP, extra 8 skills and extra 10ft move speed make it strictly better than Fighter level 3, even disregarding the possibility of Rage as a combat option.

[LordOfCain]

What about switching Eldritch knight with dragon disciple????

[Troacctid]

What about Dragon Disciple instead of Eldritch Knight???

A core-only Dragon Disciple build might look something like Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Bard 2/Dragon Disciple 10. You'd be a brawler first and foremost, with a couple 1st level spells as an afterthought. You're priced into Bard over Sorcerer because as a wood elf, you won't have enough skill points to get 8 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) otherwise.

And yes, it would be probably be better than the Eldritch Knight in your circumstances. With d12 hit dice and good BAB, plus stat boosts from Dragon Disciple, you'd actually be a competent melee fighter, and your Bard and Wizard would be able to buff you instead of you having to buff yourself.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What about switching Eldritch knight with dragon disciple????
Do not, under any circumstances, do that*. Notice how Eldritch Knight progresses spells and caster level and all, and Dragon Disciple just gives a handful of bonus spells/day? There's also a stupid RAW-above-all-else argument about the last level of the class (where you become a half-dragon) disqualifying you for the class and causing you to lose all the benefits, but... yeah. It's utter crap for anyone who wants to cast spells with any degree of competence.


*Unless you're advancing as a warrior and only taking a single level of bard or sorcerer to qualify. In that case it's one of the better melee PrCs in the DMG.

[LordOfCain]

Maybe two or so levels of DD levels in EK as well...

[ericgrau]

DD is good if you want to mainly be a fighter. It doesn't really cast though, mainly first level spells and that's it. It doesn't mix well with EK either. You can take 1 or 2 levels without destroying yourself but every level hurts you without much added benefit so there's no much point to it. A couple example builds if you go wood elf would be wood elf ranger 1 / sorcerer 6 / eldritch knight 10 or wood elf ranger 2 / fighter 1 / barbarian 1 / sorcerer 1 / dragon disciple X. Dragon disciple is good to stop at 4, 7 or 10.


Eldritch Knight does not grant you additional spells known!
Wow I never noticed that before. Does anybody actually play that way?

[LordOfCain]

I think that it would be good for my character to be mainly a fighter with semipotent spellcasting abilities.

[ericgrau]

I think that it would be good for my character to be mainly a fighter with semipotent spellcasting abilities.

Ok then go dragon disciple and gets some scrolls, wands and later staffs. Put only 1-4 levels into sorcerer. Get your fighter or ranger or etc. levels first, then sorcerer, then DD.

Spells known: feather fall, true strike. You may cast these in armor because they don't have any hand gestures ("somatic components"). True strike is usually a waste of time, but it's nice if you get a buffing round.

Scrolls: Eventually you want to get every 1st level utility spell.
Wand: Invisibility
Staffs: This isn't until high level but once you get there some good staff spells include battlefield control spells such as wall of force and web. Especially those two since they have no save or work well even on a passed save.

[Troacctid]

Bard is going to be better than Sorcerer for Dragon Disciple, since you need the skill points to meet the prerequisite.

[ericgrau]

Bard is going to be better than Sorcerer for Dragon Disciple, since you need the skill points to meet the prerequisite.
Sorcerer scrolls and staffs have way way better spell options though since he wants to cast too (but mainly fight). You can take cross class knowledge (arcana) ranks beforehand and still make it in to DD. You'll lose a lot of skill points, but it's usually worth the cost.

[LordOfCain]

So maybe fighter 5/Sorceror 4/DD 4

[LordOfCain]

And maybe round it out with some eldritch knight...

[Troacctid]

No, no, you'd go Paladin or Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 1/Fighter 2 into Dragon Disciple 10. You want to get those Dragon Disciple levels ASAP for the stat boosts and stuff, and you want to minimize your arcane caster levels because they really hurt your fighting ability.

Also, don't take 5 levels of Fighter. Fighter 5 is a dead level. You might take 4 levels, or 6 levels, but stopping at 5 is definitely a bad idea.

[Zancloufer]

And maybe round it out with some eldritch knight...

This isn't the best idea. Eldritch Knight and Dragon Disciple are two VERY different Prcs. The Question is, since your limited to core, do you want to be an Arcane spell caster with some combat capacity, or a front line warrior with some arcane support.

First case: Sorcerer 6 > Fighter 1 > Eldtich Knight 10 > Sorcerer 9. Gives you 5 more BaB, noticeably better Fort and more HP than a straight sorcerer, not to mention the proficiency in weapons and two combat feats all in exchange for 2 Caster levels. Yes your worse than straight Sorc 20 in spellcasting, but it's a worthwhile trade off if you want a gish build.

Second case: Fighter and/or Barbarian (need 4 levels total here, try to end on an even fighter level for bonus feat) then take a level of Bard or Sorcerer (be sure to have 8 skill points saved/available so you can get 8 knowledge arcane ranks) then go DD for 10 levels and end on more fighter/barbarian levels. This nets you a high HP character with good melee damage and to-hit, plus the Draconian defences, and wings. Natural wings are good for a melee character. You also can use arcane scrolls and wands without having to UMD, which is nice.

[ericgrau]

If you want 4 sorcerer levels then you go fighter 1 (or ranger 1) / sorcerer 4 / dragon disciple X. You don't take EK levels after that because that would require 2 more sorcerer levels and 4 sorcerer levels is already weakening yourself. The nice thing about 4 sorcerer levels is that you can do a little more magic before you can afford staffs. I would get web for this, because web will be useful even when you are behind on casting. In the long run it will still hurt compared to 1-2 sorcerer levels, but since you are starting at level 1 it could be nice to have web for levels 5-8. Maybe sleep or color spray too for levels 2-3.

After you finish DD then you take fighter or ranger or barbarian levels. At high level you rely on magic items like staffs to get your spells, rather than sorcerer or EK levels. That way you don't sacrifice any fighting ability and when you need a spell now and then you use a charge from your staff.

[LordOfCain]

My current build is wood elf fighter, abilities in order are: 18 9 12 12 12 13. Then take two levels of sorc. and then fighter and the sorc and then dd twice and then alternate some but get fighter more than sorc and dd. The three levels of sorc at the beginning is to get all knowledge arcana as class skills.

[Troacctid]

18/10/12/12/12/12 would be better; you're putting your level-up points in Strength, so you might as well bring Dex and Cha to even numbers, because no reason not to. (Also, 9 Dex after racial mods is illegal for a wood elf, since you can't point-buy below 8.) I'd also recommend Barbarian as your first level as it gets better HP and skill points than Fighter, so you get better value from the maximized hit die and 4x skill points (and Rage is pretty good). Take 2 cross-class ranks in Knowledge (Arcana). Then take a Sorcerer level and go up to 5 ranks of Knowledge (Arcana). Then Fighter, then Fighter again, then either Barbarian or Ranger, taking a cross-class rank of Knowledge (Arcana) each time, for a total of 8 ranks.

Then go into Dragon Disciple and take all 10 levels, and for the love of Bahamut, do not alternate between classes. Dragon Disciple levels are better.

[Andry]

So what reason did your DM give for you not being a cleric?

[Shadowscale]

Please please please just order players handbook 2 off eBay and play a duskblade or miniatures handbook for a warmage, you're killing me Smalls.

[Deadline]

So, how about we try this another way? What kinds of spells do you want to be able to cast?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Please please please just order players handbook 2 off eBay and play a duskblade or miniatures handbook for a warmage, you're killing me Smalls.
Warmage is a blaster, not a gish. It has nothing gishy except a bit of armor proficiency.

[Shadowscale]

Warmage is a blaster, not a gish. It has nothing gishy except a bit of armor proficiency.

Anything is better than sorcerer 5 fighter 5

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter 1/ Sorcerer 6/ Knight Phantom (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) 10
You're welcome.

[DMVerdandi]

*looks at thread*
MOTHER OF GOD...

This is a great example to why core only games are really bad, Usually Bad DM's host them, and they are even worse for a player that doesn't have great command of the rules of 3.5.


@OP. Look man... Honestly, unless this is the only game in town, I would suggest playing with another DM who will really let you create character concepts, and really help you to understand the ins and outs of the game.

Even contemplating Dragon Disciple tells us all we need to know. It is one of the worst PRC's in the game, and being limited to core is the only reason someone would ever choose it to have draconic flavor, compared to the 9 million other options that exist outside of core that actually work.
Had you been allowed just the SRD and spells from other books, if you wanted a dragon flavored gish, all you would really need to do is choose battle sorcerer, and pick draconic spells. And that is most simple one of the many options you could have taken.



My suggestion honestly is to not go for the gish option at all. You aren't really familiar with how it works, and you don't have the adequate tools.[Also your build ideas don't actually work, and you will gimp yourself and the party]
Unfortunately you cannot be a cleric (which is also another straight out of the box gish), so honestly I suggest you take on the Druid



Now, the Druid gets Decent BAB, Decent hit Die. Decent weapons, Decent skills, and Decent saves.
THEN it gets Fabulous Spells, Fabulous Spontaneous Summons, Fabulous Animal Companions, and the fabulous wild shape.

Now, wild shape[which you get at level 6] can get complicated, so if you do it, pick two animals. One Land, One Air.
Until you get the hang of it, only use those two creatures.
Do the same for the Spontaneous summons. Pick one land, and one air creature, and stick with it for at least a level while you learn the ropes

Also, Learn the spells like the back of your hand. You cannot really screw up, since the druid knows all of his spells, and prepares them daily, so at worst, you will have a bunch of spells that you don't need that you can switch the next day. And get Natural Spell.



My favorite way to fluff a druid is as a ninja.
Elemental spells, Animal companions, summoning, transformation, armor restrictions...
Pick up the Scimitar, some darts for ranged, throw some black lacquered leather armor, and go destroy people.

[A_S]

[snip]
Woah. This, uh, seems maybe a bit over the top? Like, not every DM who wants to run a core-only game is a scheming villain who gets his jollies cackling evilly while forcing his players to engage in badwrongfun. Some DM's are just new and want to use the bits of the rules they're most familiar with, or don't have access to all the splatbooks, or whatever. And whatever else might be said about this game, I'm pretty sure the answer to the OP's question about how to build an effective Sorcerer gish in core is not "you should play a Druid and roleplay it as a ninja!"

The OP wants advice on running a Sorcerer gish in a core-only game. The sad truth is that there isn't a ton of support for a Sorcerer-based gish in core, especially without Paladin levels. So we're providing the best advice we can, stuff like "avoid even Sorcerer/Fighter level split, it's bad" and "Fighter 5 is a dead level, don't take it" and "have you considered focusing more on combat and less on casting if you don't want to go heavy Sorcerer?" That seems more in the spirit of the OP's questions than "AAAAAAH your game is terrible you should get out and also maybe play a Druid."

[DMVerdandi]

Woah. This, uh, seems maybe a bit over the top? Like, not every DM who wants to run a core-only game is a scheming villain who gets his jollies cackling evilly while forcing his players to engage in badwrongfun. Some DM's are just new and want to use the bits of the rules they're most familiar with, or don't have access to all the splatbooks, or whatever. And whatever else might be said about this game, I'm pretty sure the answer to the OP's question about how to build an effective Sorcerer gish in core is not "you should play a Druid and roleplay it as a ninja!"
In this digital age, I find it unlikely that anyone is playing with a half-empty set of books. And even if, research never hurt anyone. I would run a game that I didn't know how only after doing lots of research about the actual mechanics and playability of the game.

On the second thing, not only was he offered suggestions that were optimal, he decided against them and went for an unoptimal choice. Everyone was okay with the Sorcererx/fighter 1/Eldritch Knight X.
Then he started talking about sorcerer 4/fighter 4/Dragon Disciple X/ Eldritch Knight X.
C'mon. C'MON.





The OP wants advice on running a Sorcerer gish in a core-only game. The sad truth is that there isn't a ton of support for a Sorcerer-based gish in core, especially without Paladin levels. So we're providing the best advice we can, stuff like "avoid even Sorcerer/Fighter level split, it's bad" and "Fighter 5 is a dead level, don't take it" and "have you considered focusing more on combat and less on casting if you don't want to go heavy Sorcerer?" That seems more in the spirit of the OP's questions than "AAAAAAH your game is terrible you should get out and also maybe play a Druid."
Well, as you said, it seems that you guys got all that handled with your suggestions.
What need is there for me to simply parrot something that has already been said before?

It's not like I was saying "Play a ninja, because it's a cooler concept". I did offer it as a suggestion, but I was saying in it that the druid is a Gish in itself. It has high level magical powers, and it has a really good frame.
If Clarification is needed: I mentioned Ninja because it can be seen as somewhat of a magical warrior, or in other terms, a Gish. It is not that one has to play a druid as a ninja, or that necessarily being a Gish will make you a ninja, but I just find it to be a cool archetype that you can play with a druid, and that that kind of theme was pretty far away from the granola munching hippie that the druid is usually typecast as.
It was merely an exercise in fluff over crunch.




Secondly in a core game where cleric is a banned class and the OP obviously hasn't been taught basic rules (never lose caster levels), someone has gotta tell him what's up.
Without Clerics, that leaves bards and druids as the only sources of healing magic(oh yeah, and pally)
There is one bard, so support don't hurt.


It might not be "what he asked for", but it seemed like you guys covered that 3 times over.
Perhaps, being the devil's advocate and saying (1. Bro, that game sounds rough as Frieda Kalho's legs
2.Look, it seems like you don't really know how this works, choosing this works like a charm), isn't such a bad thing...

[Troacctid]

Everyone was okay with the Sorcererx/fighter 1/Eldritch Knight X.

Not me! I said it was terrible! :smallbiggrin:

It is pretty horrendous in core-only. Especially if you're starting at level 1 and the party already has a Wizard.

And Dragon Disciple isn't anywhere near the worst prestige classes in the game, not by a long shot. You just have to understand it's intended for Barbarians, not Sorcerers. Once you realize that, it's actually a pretty nice upgrade over the base class, which has bupkis for class features after around 2nd level or so.

[ericgrau]

Dunno why people keep suggesting non-core stuff in core-only. And for those that know and say so anyway, it looks like they are rookies so core-only is better to start. Sheesh. Also EK or DD is ok (but not both at the same time) because optimization is lower for their group. In core-only DD can actually be the strongest melee character in his party.


My current build is wood elf fighter, abilities in order are: 18 9 12 12 12 13. Then take two levels of sorc. and then fighter and the sorc and then dd twice and then alternate some but get fighter more than sorc and dd. The three levels of sorc at the beginning is to get all knowledge arcana as class skills.

Str 18+2=20, cha 12, con 13, dex 12, wis 12, int 9-2=7. You can swap wis and int if you don't want to be dumb.

Fighter 1: Spend 4 skill points on 2 ranks in knowledge arcana.
Sorcerer 1: Spend 2 skill points on 2 ranks in knowledge arcana (4 total)
Fighter 2: Spend 2 skill points on 1 rank in knowledge arcana (5 total).
Sorcerer 2: Spend 2 skill points on 2 ranks in knowledge arcana (7 total). Up your con to 14.
Barbarian or ranger 1: Spend 2 skill points on 1 rank in knowledge arcana (8 total)
Then 7 levels of dragon disciple, then back to barbarian or ranger. 4 or 10 levels of dragon disciple is also ok.

There now you have 8 ranks in knowledge arcana and can get into dragon disciple with only 2 levels of sorcerer.

Or: Ranger 1, sorcerer 4, dragon disciple 7 (or 4 or 10), back to ranger.
Or: Sorcerer 4, ranger 1, dragon disciple 7 (or 4 or 10), back to ranger. Better at levels 1-4 but less hp and skill points for the long run.
Or: ranger 3, sorcerer 1, 4th level of ranger, dragon disciple 7 (or 4 or 10), back to ranger or barbarian or fighter (max 2 levels each barbarian or fighter). Better in the long run but less spells at low level. At high level you can use staffs (plus all the builds use scrolls and wands at low level).
Or: 2 levels of fighter, 2 levels of ranger and 1 level of sorcerer in any order. Then dragon disciple 7 (or 4 or 10) and back to ranger or barbarian (max 2 levels barbarian). Similar to the last build.

On a wild elf and xp penalties it is very hard to do 4 levels of sorcerer with 4 levels of fighter because you don't get to sorcerer 4 soon enough for it to be very useful, and you don't want to be stuck at fighter 3 very long either. You would be best off taking all 8 levels before starting dragon disciple so you can get your feats and web as soon as possible. But I think the above builds are better than this build if you don't mind.

Even with 1 level of sorcerer you can use the most powerful sorcerer staffs so you don't need more sorcerer levels and on a dragon disciple it hurts your ability to fight if you get more.

[Deadline]

Fighter 1/ Sorcerer 6/ Knight Phantom (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) 10
You're welcome.

For what? All of your suggestions have ignored the book and source restrictions the OP has mentioned.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For what? All of your suggestions have ignored the book and source restrictions the OP has mentioned.

I gave a suggestion that won't require any additional books to be purchased, since it's already online. Plus that's basically a functional version of the Eldritch Knight, which is what he'd originally planned to use.

[LordOfCain]

DM does not allow non core and any non core builds are useless and just take up space.

[DMVerdandi]

DM does not allow non core and any non core builds are useless and just take up space.

Alright, since you are back on line, clear up some things for us.

1.Why Sorcerer/Fighter gish? [1a.]Are you stuck to that idea?
2.WHY DRAGON DISCIPLE?
3. Can you use the Battle Sorcerer? (It's SRD[which is technically core])
4.Do you know why it's bad to lose caster levels?
5. Would you be willing to play a druid instead?
6.is this an online game or not?


I mean, especially when it comes to number 1. Ideally, the best hybrid classes in the players handbook are Cleric, Druid, and Bard. All have melee options built in, and all have really good magic and class abilities. I know that cleric is not allowed[another why???] and there is already a bard in the party.

Another suggestion outside of the druid is Rogue/Wizard. It's more skilled unarmored fighterish (as if you were going to wear armor anyway.) and then you can take it into Arcane trickster, which is a pretty darn good.

[A Tad Insane]

How much experience with 3.5 (or tabletop in general) have you have?

[LordOfCain]

Maybe fighter with a 1d3 + 1 level dip in bard to qualify for dragon disciple.

[LordOfCain]

FYI cleric is allowed, just not for me because I wanted to make a fighting cleric. And druid is not allowed because if previous occurrences, this isn't my first character in the campaign I am playing. Paladin and monk are also outlawed because of balance/complexity problems and sorcerer is not recommended.

[ericgrau]

Maybe fighter with a 1d3 + 1 level dip in bard to qualify for dragon disciple.
That works. It is harder to cast like I said but it can be done. Not necessarily saying you should but if you do 4 levels of bard then try glitterdust instead of web. Or maybe alter self (for troglodyte) or heroism (to buff the whole party) if you expect lots of dungeons and not wilderness. If not then invisibility or locate object is a nice second spell.

[A Tad Insane]

FYI cleric is allowed, just not for me because I wanted to make a fighting cleric.

...
What? What's wrong with a fighting cleric? Does your dm think that clerics should be back line healers only? There's a reason they have 3/4 bab, d8 hd and heavy armor proficiency

Also, the fewer levels of bard you have for dd, the better, as none of its class features will be advanced by anything, even spellcasting

[Morcleon]

FYI cleric is allowed, just not for me because I wanted to make a fighting cleric.

...why? This does not make sense. I am very much confused by why a fighting cleric is not allowed. :smallconfused:

[LordOfCain]

Said I should be a fighter if I wanted to do melee. Don't know why.

[A Tad Insane]

Unless he outright bans you, do it anyways.
Bull's strength/bear's endurance all day, and the moment you get to level seven, spam divine power forever

[Morcleon]

Said I should be a fighter if I wanted to do melee. Don't know why.

That is utter poppycock. Cleric works quite a bit better than a fighter, as they can buff themselves and have options out of combat too. Plus, you can pay less for weapons and armor when you can just greater magic weapon and magic vestment yourself.

[Troacctid]

Don't even use Bull's Strength or Bear's Endurance, they're not worth a standard action. Just have a decent Strength score and use the War domain. You're an elf, so you can worship Corellon and go sword-and-board. Your damage won't be spectacular, but you should do just fine as a front-liner backing up your other party members. Use your spell slots to cast healing spells in between combats. (Not during combat, unless someone is actually dying.)

Once you have higher BAB and can afford an animated shield, take Power Attack and start two-handing your longsword to improve your damage output. Cast Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon every day to improve your own gear and your allies'.

You don't even need to put resources into being good at melee as a Cleric. You'll be a little worse than a Fighter at the start, but you'll pick up once you get higher level spells, and more importantly, your party legitimately wants a divine caster.

[LordOfCain]

I like arcane spells more, and I would really enjoy a gish character so...

[Troacctid]

Okay...what spells, specifically, do you want to be casting?

[SkipSandwich]

If the issue is you want to be a spontaneous caster with decent combat potential, why not use a Wilder (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/wilder.htm)? It's in the SRD (so within the Core-Only ruling), manifesters don't care about armor penalties so dip either Fighter 1 or Paladin 2 (for divine grace Cha-synergy) and go to town. Don't like psionics? No problem, a few simple name-replacements and you can drop sorcerer entirely and use the Wilder class instead just by calling his powers "Innate spells" and treating them as such in-game. Otherwise several good builds have already been suggested by other posters so go with whichever you feel most comfortably fits your concept and level of system mastery.

[DMVerdandi]

I like arcane spells more, and I would really enjoy a gish character so...

This is really something you should be telling your DM, not us.
You really haven't given us anything to work with at all. Have been a little evasive, and honestly I kind of feel like you are trolling a little bit.

If it's REALLY REALLY what you want, tell your DM you want to play a Duskblade, and don't take no for an answer. You haven't really proven to us that you would really succeed with a Gish class (as simple as they are, you still have to know how to build them really well), so you need one right outside the box.

Bribe him with some snacks or something. Put that Diplomacy score to use for god's sake.

[Larkas]

It seems like you really just want to play a Fighter 10/ Sorcerer 10. Then just do that and have fun.

[Endarire]

Be a Gray Elf Wizard. Cast alter self and polymorph. That's your full arcane casty gish solution in core.