Best Core PrC

[LordOfCain]

Just wondering what the best PrC is in core. From the DMG.

[Pluto!]

Red Wizard can do stupid broken things with CL.

Thaumaturgist, in a more playable sense, is straight upside with a feat and a couple very powerful abilities (Outsider Cohort, mini-Contingencies) in exchange for a point of BA and 10 HP.

[A_S]

Archmage has some quite strong abilities for some builds, and not losing caster levels is always nice. The other full-casting PrC's are strong because full casting is strong, but their class features are mostly pretty underwhelming.

Horizon Walker is much stronger than the other non-casting PrC's in the DMG.

Assassin is pretty good at what it does; in my opinion it's probably the best-designed PrC in the book. Full Sneak Attack progression, spells that are useful for a stealthy character without turning it into a spell-focused character, and goodies like Hide in Plain Sight. You know, stuff that an assassin would actually want to use! Unlike, say, Duelist, which provides no abilities that a duelist would ever want to use.

*edit* I forgot Red Wizard is core; it's at least as strong as Archmage.

[Grod_The_Giant]

My vote's for Thaumaturgist. Dead simple to qualify for, 5/5 casting, and nice boosts to one of the best spell lines in the game. After that, probably Archmage (5/5 casting, nice specials, but high level only) and Loremaster (10/10 casting and actual class features). Then Arcane Trickster, Assassin, Blackguard, Shadowdancer, Mystic Theurge, and everything else is even crappier.

[Karnith]

In terms of power level, Red Wizard is hands-down the most powerful PrC in core, because it gives access to Circle Magic. Behind that, Loremaster, Archmage, and Thaumaturgist all get high marks for being full caster PrCs.

The dual-progression classes (i.e. Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, and Mystic Theurge) are all solid, though generally not as good as staying a single-class full caster.

For the non-primary-caster types, Assassin is pretty good, and if you're stuck in core-only Blackguard, Dragon Disciple, and Horizon Walker are worth considering.

And other DMG prestige classes are pretty bad.

[Andezzar]

Archmage has some quite strong abilities for some builds, and not losing caster levels is always nice. The other full-casting PrC's are strong because full casting is strong, but their class features are mostly pretty underwhelming.It is probably not intended that way, but by RAW Archmage does not increase the character's CL unless you select the Spell Power High Arcana.
Spells per Day/Spells Known

When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.Caster level is not listed as one of the benefits he gains.

So taking a level in Archmage is worse than taking another level of wizard.

[Ravens_cry]

Not the 'best' but unlike, say, Arcane Archer, Arcane Trickster is exactly what it sets out to be and does it well. While not as flashy as some ways of synergising Rogue type and Arcane type, it does what it sets out to.
I wish there was equally as good way for doing the same for Rogue and Divine Magic types.
Yes, I am aware of the Giant's homebrew.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I wish there was equally as good way for doing the same for Rogue and Divine Magic types.
Yes, I am aware of the Giant's homebrew.

Shadowbane Stalker (Complete Adventurer) gives 8/10 casting and 3d6 sneak attack, and requires only a single level of rogue to qualify. The fluff is kind of weird, though.
Sacred Outlaw (Dragon 357) lets rogue and cleric levels stack for turning and sneak attack damage.
Southern Magician (Races of Faerun) probably lets you qualify for Arcane Trickster by casting divine spells as arcane a few times/day. The class itself advances any spellcasting.
The Kobold domain (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) gives you trapfinding, if that's all you were interested in. You can grab a bit of sneak attack through Martial Study (Assassin's Stance).

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, but none of those are alone as good a simple synergy class like Arcane Trickster.

[ekarney]

As a 1 or 2 level dip, Archmage is brilliant for Wu Jens, who whilst aren't core (I don't think?) work very well with archmage.


Having nigh-indestructible clones is REALLY handy.

[Roga]

For staying with just core, I've always enjoyed the Horizon Walker. It makes a Ranger more stealthy, sharper senses, darkvision, and the ability to dimension door nearly at will. It often feels like more of a shadowdancer than shadowdancer does. I've got at least 4 or 5 HW characters in my career, while the other classes got mostly ignored or just dipped into. Mystic Theurge has a special place in my heart for cohorts and DMPCs. Healer/Sorc/MT (Sub cleric for Healer if core-only) and take all the utility spells and none of the offensive ones. Never steal the limelight, and be beloved by the whole party.

[ericgrau]

I have you all beat by RAW because RAW says the best PrC is the one the DM comes up with specific to his campaign world :smalltongue:.

Red wizard is the one for the brokenness. Within the SRD archmage and thaumaturgist are obvious choices for high level casters.

Hierophant deserves an honorable mention for letting the druid share his wildshape with the barbarian or monk. Both are now subject to greater magic fang and so on. The barbarian adds full BAB, rage and high hp to his wildshape while the monk adds grapple damage that doesn't suck to his heavily boosted grapple modifier. Otherwise your damage is so low that the grappler is disabling himself as much as he's disabling the enemy. The rest of the hierophant abilities are pretty bad. Sharing a heavily optimized turning might be nice in extremely specific campaigns, or in the hands of a cohort to cheese out DMM.

I've noticed almost all the core PrCs to be useful under the right circumstances in core-only. You just have to use them right. The sole exception is duelist. I've tried and tried and can't figure out any purpose at all. After 7 levels of ultimate suck you can get a good AC boost which can be better done in other ways. Horizon walker is close though, being good only for the shifter terrain mastery. Before that everything in the popular horizon walker builds actually comes mainly from the base classes rather than the PrC and could be done with any other class or PrC. You have to take 5 levels of d8 HD and minor skill boosts before its major ability comes online at character level 11. No other feats or special abilities in that time. And if you really want that ability so badly, usually magic items will work just as well so you're losing all that to save yourself around 30-40k gp at high level. Not even that much because you might spend the gold more wisely if you had it. So it's nice for about 2-3 levels before it fades into pointlessness again. Not that there aren't great builds with it, it's just that they have little to do with the PrC itself.

[Curmudgeon]

I've noticed almost all the core PrCs to be useful under the right circumstances in core-only. You just have to use them right. The sole exception is duelist. I've tried and tried and can't figure out any purpose at all.
The only purpose the Duelist PrC serves is to make the Swashbuckler base class seem less sucky.

[Jack_Simth]

Just wondering what the best PrC is in core. From the DMG.
In a game where there aren't any real stakes, the point of the game is 'fun', and thus the 'best' anything is 'the one you have the most fun with without ruining anyone else's fun'. However, that's going to be a different answer for each person and even each table.

[Threadnaught]

Clearly Mystic Theurge is the greatest PrC ever?

Come on guys, it advances Wizard and Cleric, at the same time. That is awesome.
There's even people here who hate it for being over powered. They are so shocked at the Theurge's potency, they call it MAD. If I'm crazy for wanting to use this exceptionally powerful PrC, I don't want to be sane.

[ericgrau]

Clearly Mystic Theurge is the greatest PrC ever?

Come on guys, it advances Wizard and Cleric, at the same time.
You know when it first came out lots of people thought it was broken for this reason, until they realized that it was more like partly fixing a huge flaw in multi-classed casters. Compared to wizard 10 / cleric 10 it's brokenly good I guess.

[darksolitaire]

Mystic Theurge has it's uses, mainly advancing classes with accelerated casting or if taken after early entry. Neither of which is available in core. :smallbiggrin:

[Pluto!]

Theurge (and the other multiclassing system patch PrCs) is phenominal, once you accept the alternative is Wizard 10/Cleric 10.

I think there were a lot of things going on with the PrC system then - it was supposed to define organizations like Red Wizards and Assassins, it was supposed to capture the heights of certain archetypes like Archmage and Hierophant, and it was supposed to mechanically facilitate archetype crossovers like Theurge or Eldritch Knight.

It's no wonder that there are still disagreements on how to treat mechanics v. Built-in fiction with regards to class use.

[Andezzar]

Theurge (and the other multiclassing system patch PrCs) is phenominal, once you accept the alternative is Wizard 10/Cleric 10.The alternative in core is wizard 20 cleric 18 (cohort) or the other way around. Then the MT does not look that great anymore.

The problem with MT is that you get both types of spells at least 3 levels late. By then they are not so great any more. And then there is the whole action economy thing. If all your spells cost you a standard action or more and combat only lasts around 5 rounds you are not casting that many spells. Even in core the wizard or cleric already has the tools for pretty much any job.

[Pluto!]

The alternative in core is wizard 20 cleric 18 (cohort) or the other way around. Then the MT does not look that great anymore.

Only in the sense that the alternative to Barbarian is Wizard 20 Cleric 18 (Cohort).

A straight-classed Wizard is by definition not a Cleric/Wizard hybrid and so is not a conceptually consistent substitute for MT. For characters who qualify for MT, MT is one of the most powerful classes in the game.

Granted, you're giving up power to play that concept instead of straight Wizard, much like you give up power to play a Barbarian instead of straight Wizard, but even Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Archmage 4 gets access to Epic spells on time, keeping it a long way from being one of the weakest (or even 2nd quartile) build in core.

[Beriorn]

I'd say Mystic Theurge for a Human Wizard 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Mystic Theurge 9 build. A Human Wizard with 1 flaw so you can take Heighten Spell, Earth Sense and Earth Spell. You now qualify for Rainbow Servant (as long as you got the skill, the alignment and the fluff stuff). Take 10 levels in this; you are now ECL 11 and can now, if you know them of course, all 6th-level and lower Wizard and Cleric spells as a Wizard.

Follow this up with 9 levels of Mystic Theurge. Since there is no definition of what a divine/arcane spellcasting class is, and it does not say that you cannot pick the same class with a single level of Mystic Theurge, you now level up at double normal speed. This gives you 7th level spells at ECL 12, 8th at 13 and 9th at level 14. So 9 levels of Mystic Theurge is the equivalent of 18 levels of Wizard spellcasting.

This means you can cast all Wizard and Cleric spells (though not domain spells) like a 29th level wizard at level 20. I know it's not very optimized, but it gets the job done.

[atomicwaffle]

mystic theurge rewards you for being good at roleplaying. Assuming no exploits or RAW, its cleric 3 / wizard 3 / MT #. That means access to level 3 spells at clvl 8 as opposed to 5 for a base class. Getting there is an ordeal. The best way I found to do it is as a Transmutation Specialist.

But once you're level 8, and then 10, and then 12...hooboy the tides do they turn. The best way to be a Mystic theurge is to BE a mystic theurge. Patience, study, paying your dues, biding your time. Become obsessed with magic and magic items. Its in character after all. Planning long-term. Be creative with those 2nd level spells. Get a greatsword, learn how to use it. Heal buff etc.

Mystic theurges are GREAT for long-term campaigns or higher level ones. If you can make it to CLVL 10, it is so satisfying. But it's not for everyone. Preparing spells will take FOREVER.

I find it a good Litmus Test for a player of D&D if they can pull off playing a Mystic Theurge to past level 10. If you can, you got some D&D chops.

[Xuldarinar]

Best by what standard?

Personally, I favor the dragon disciple and blackguard. The former in discussions I see most completely miss the point of it, and the latter.. while not perfect, has a charm to it. Though, I've not seen a proper diabolist build, as mentioned in the DMG.

[Flickerdart]

Not the 'best' but unlike, say, Arcane Archer, Arcane Trickster is exactly what it sets out to be and does it well. While not as flashy as some ways of synergising Rogue type and Arcane type, it does what it sets out to.
I wish there was equally as good way for doing the same for Rogue and Divine Magic types.
Yes, I am aware of the Giant's homebrew.
Amusingly, Arcane Trickster can advance divine casting just fine. All you need is a 3rd level arcane spell to get in, which can be gained through a number of ways.

I'd say that Archmage and Thaumaturge are actually quite weak - the abilities they gain that aren't "+1 casting" are pretty mediocre, so it's really the base class doing the heavy lifting.

I would say Blackguard is the strongest PrC on its own merits, since you get 11 BAB and 4th level casting by level 11, which can't be done with any other class in core.

[Missile156]

It may not be the most powerful but the arcane archer if done right is an extremely powerful build.

[Xuldarinar]

It may not be the most powerful but the arcane archer if done right is an extremely powerful build.

I've found it is, and is wonderfully flavored for something out of core, especially when adjusted to throw chickens instead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?299926-D-amp-D-3-5-(Joke)-PrC)-Poultrimancer-PEACH).

But that isn't helpful, now is it?

[Pluto!]

I'd say that Archmage and Thaumaturge are actually quite weak - the abilities they gain that aren't "+1 casting" are pretty mediocre, so it's really the base class doing the heavy lifting.

Thaumaturgist gets a second character and extra actions via its mini-Contingency. Not sure how much higher the bar can reasonably be.

[atemu1234]

I like Red Wizard.

If Ur-Priest is allowed, suddenly MT becomes very, very good.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As others have said, Red Wizard is just silly, especially in the higher levels. Use Simulacrums (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) of yourself to contribute spells to your circle magic. Once you're level 20 (assuming Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 10/ Archmage 5) make new Simulacrums which are each a Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 5, each of them can lead their own circle. They each take turns leading a circle with each other contributing just enough spells for each of them to Heighten a single spell to 20th level. When you lead your circle every day, nine Simulacrums each contribute a 20th level spell, giving you 180 spell levels each day.

However, it's not very powerful in the low to mid levels, especially if you can't reliably get someone to contribute spells to your circle every day until you can cast Simulacrum. For that reason, I'd say Thaumaturgist has more impact, and is thus the stronger class, for nearly every game. Especially since at its 5th level, a 12th level character can have a Ghaele Eladrin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm) as a Planar Cohort. A 12th level character gets a permanent follower that has Cleric 14 spellcasting, Hold Monster and Charm Monster at will, a gaze that slays lesser foes and panics all other foes, and is extremely respectable in melee combat.

[Telonius]

Horizon Walker does the rare trick of giving melee classes some Nice Things. If only those bonuses weren't static +1's (to an admittedly huge number of enemies), but combat options, it would be really beautiful.

[Flickerdart]

Thaumaturgist gets a second character and extra actions via its mini-Contingency. Not sure how much higher the bar can reasonably be.

The Leadership-like option is very expensive to use, strictly limited to creatures gained via planar ally (which you don't even choose, never mind get to advance) and doesn't stack with Leadership proper.

Its contingency is only for Calling or Summoning spells which makes it useless for most situations people would actually want a contingency.

[Nifft]

a 12th level character can have a Ghaele Eladrin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm) as a Planar Cohort.

Point of order: the Ghaele's LA is "--" (not "+0"), and IIRC that means its ECL is "don't bother".

[J-H]

Ok, I just looked up Red Wizard in the DMG for the first time ever.

WOW, that is good. +4 to caster level for damage dice, spell pen, etc., and it's a 10/10 casting class.

[Flickerdart]

Point of order: the Ghaele's LA is "--" (not "+0"), and IIRC that means its ECL is "don't bother".
Planar Cohort doesn't care about ECL (it's got nothing to do with Leadership's cohort, except that it replaced one if you have it already). You can make any creature your god decides to grant you through planar ally into one for 1000gp per HD (plus the 250xp cost of casting the version that bags you a Ghaele).

And even then, it will only follow you if what you're doing aligns with a cause it values.

[LoyalPaladin]

At first I was really concerned that no one had mentioned "Radiant Servant of Pelor", then I realized I don't play clerics and it's not in core.

With that in mind, I'll have to echo pretty much every one. Red Wizard is a great class. I'm also a big fan of the Horizon Walker for any plane hopping campaigns.

[Urpriest]

Planar Cohort doesn't care about ECL (it's got nothing to do with Leadership's cohort, except that it replaced one if you have it already). You can make any creature your god decides to grant you through planar ally into one for 1000gp per HD (plus the 250xp cost of casting the version that bags you a Ghaele).

And even then, it will only follow you if what you're doing aligns with a cause it values.

Nope.


The planar cohort can’t have more Hit Dice than the thaumaturgist has, and must have an ECL no higher than the thaumaturgist’s character level -2

Anyway, the whole "you don't get to choose" isn't true. You get to choose which character your god worships, and most have explicit planar ally lists. Plus, since it's a Cohort, it will in fact gain XP over time. That said, yeah, usually this will be worse than regular Leadership.

[Flickerdart]

Nope.
That's what I get for not reading it through.


Anyway, the whole "you don't get to choose" isn't true. You get to choose which character your god worships, and most have explicit planar ally lists.
Yeah, but the god decides what you get off that list - and then that creature decides whether the cause you're using it for is what it feels like doing today. Plus, picking a god means you're now strictly limited in your domains, as opposed to being cleric of a cause.


Plus, since it's a Cohort, it will in fact gain XP over time.
What makes you say that? The feature doesn't actually say the planar cohort gains the benefits of a Leadership cohort, even if the thaumaturgist has Leadership.

[Troacctid]

How is casting summoning spells as a free action instead of a full-round action useless? That's an absurdly good ability!

Cohorts gain xp because the DMG bases the xp for NPC allies on their relationship to the party. They're either a cohort, follower, hireling, or none of the above. Since the cohort is a cohort, it counts as a cohort.

[Flickerdart]

How is casting summoning spells as a free action instead of a full-round action useless? That's an absurdly good ability!

Cohorts gain xp because the DMG bases the xp for NPC allies on their relationship to the party. They're either a cohort, follower, hireling, or none of the above. Since the cohort is a cohort, it counts as a cohort.
The planar cohort is not a Leadership cohort, in the same way that a spell level, a class level, and a caster level are not the same thing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're playing core-only, then none of the deities have set Planar Ally lists, you just have to match alignment.

"A 5th-level thaumaturgist can use any of the planar ally spells to call a creature to act as his cohort." ... "The planar cohort can’t have more Hit Dice than the thaumaturgist has, and must have an ECL no higher than the thaumaturgist’s character level -2."

You can call a Ghaele Eladrin with Planar Ally, so you can call it to act as your cohort. It doesn't have more hit dice than the character, and while you would count its ECL as equivalent to a nonability since it has no listed LA, everything listed that would contribute to its ECL does not exceed your character level -2. It does not need to have an ECL, it just need to be called via one of the Planar Ally spells and not be more powerful than the listed restrictions.

[AvatarVecna]

Just to clarify, these ratings are based on assumed entry.

Arcane Archer is a gish PrC that has a few neat char-op tricks available, but it's more focused on martial capabilities than magical ones, making it terrible when those tricks aren't present, and only barely useful when they are.

Arcane Trickster is for people who want a rogue/wizard for some reason, and further desire SA on a build that will never hit anything other than Touch AC. The sole thing saving this PrC is that it's at least giving you full casting, so you can still be a decent wizard, even if your rogue dip is never really useful beyond some skills you don't need.

Archmage is wonderful wonderful wonderful. Full casting progression and a handful of abilities that increase your casting capabilities; if nothing else, you can take the CL increase at every level and have CR 25. Unless you're playing a wizard and your DM says your spellbook doesn't get free inscribed spells from non-Wizard levels, this is a perfect finishing move on just about any Wizard build, even with the inclusion of splatbook materials.

Assassin isn't...totally terrible. It's decent at killing people. it gets some casting. It's just not...really very interesting; straight rogue is better at killing people and gets ways more skills to making doing so easier. Hell, murderhobo behavior is a literal requirement. Pass.

Blackguard is a decent upgrade for a Fighter or Ranger, a good one for an Ex-Paladin, and a great one for a Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter. Note, this is relative to their entry, not to other entries; obviously, even an optimized Blackguard can't really compete in the same weight class as an optimized Arcane Trickster, for example.

Dragon Disciple is for Sorcerers that want Str, HP, a lousy breath weapon, and no casting. The fact that it gives you blindsense and flight is appreciated, but you can get those from spells (which it barely gives you) making this terrible. The capstone is a terribly unoptimized template, and the only reason to take that template normally is the possibility of a dragon pulling a Darth Vader with "No, I am your father,"...and this PrC takes even that bit of coolness away from it.

Duelist is for high-Int monks that don't want to use unarmed strikes or flurry of blows. It's also for rogues willing to trade SA progression for BAB progression, which is at least not a totally terrible trade-off. Still, this is pretty bad...

Dwarven Defender is great at what it's trying to specialize at: hunkering down and becoming a living, lethal wall that effectively seals a cramped undergound passage shut against incoming enemies. Unfortunately, this makes most PCs actively worse at being adventurers. This is much much better for NPCs defending an underground city, but that's nothing we really care much for.

Eldritch Knight is a wonderful gish PrC, even with the inclusion of so many splatbooks; the only classes more necessary to this concept are Abjurant Champion and a 1-level Spellsword dip.

Heirophant would be just as wonderful as Archmage if it advanced casting, but it doesn't. The abilities are nice, but not as nice as 9th level divine spells. You're better off just continuing in the class you would've used to enter this.

Horizon Walker channels the awesome power of having walked long enough to have been everywhere at some point. This is less exciting than it sounds, and it already sounds pretty frickin' boring. This is for rangers who don't want to be good at hunting; just skip by this one.

Loremaster is a great PrC, and is my idea of an ideal full casting PrC; it gives useful, but not overpowered abilities, and gives full casting progression. Before splatbooks, Wizard 5/Loremaster 10/Archmage 5 was the standard wizard build for a reason. This is awesome in several ways.

Mystic Theurge is inherently worse than just straight (full caster). It's terrible early on, and only really gets decent when you start running out of MT levels to take. Core only, this isn't very good by those standards, although it's still vaguely decent.

Shadowdancer is decent at moving through shadows and hiding in plain sight. Beyond that...it's not very impressive. Still, those two things are hard to do without this, so kudos are in order.

Thaumaturgist is another great full casting PrC; since it's easy to get all the features, and the features are generally better than Loremaster has, I'd put this ahead of Loremaster, but still below Archmage. And hey, it's useful for divine casters as well, so there's that.

[Flickerdart]

...You can call a Ghaele Eladrin with Planar Ally...

Again, that's not how planar ally works. Here's literally the first sentence of the base spell: "By casting this spell, you request your deity to send you an elemental or outsider (of 6 HD or less) of the deity’s choice." You cannot cast planar ally for a particular creature. The spell doesn't even allow you to petition the deity for the kind of creature you want! You cast it, and your god gives you whatever he feels like. Maybe it's a Ghaele Eladrin. Maybe it's a half-celestial badger.

[Nifft]

Just to clarify, these ratings are based on assumed entry.
(...)
Dragon Disciple is for Sorcerers that want Str, HP, a lousy breath weapon, and no casting. The fact that it gives you blindsense and flight is appreciated, but you can get those from spells (which it barely gives you) making this terrible.

As people have said already, Dragon Disciple isn't a caster PrC, it's a fighter PrC which requires one level of Sorcerer as the entry speedbump.

Look at Paladin 9 / Sorcerer 1 / Dragon Disciple 10 as your baseline.
Sorc spells: True Strike and whatever else can be cast in armor.
... and note that DD bonus slots can be allocated to Paladin.

[AvatarVecna]

As people have said already, Dragon Disciple isn't a caster PrC, it's a fighter PrC which requires one level of Sorcerer as the entry speedbump.

Look at Paladin 9 / Sorcerer 1 / Dragon Disciple 10 as your baseline.
Sorc spells: True Strike and whatever else can be cast in armor.
... and note that DD bonus slots can be allocated to Paladin.

I said assumed entry, not optimized entry. This is based on the requirements and the fluff, and both of those scream "sorcerer".

EDIT: On a completely unrelated note, I just realized that it's possible to build an Assassin/Blackguard/Mystic Theurge, and that's hilarious.

[Troacctid]

The planar cohort is not a Leadership cohort, in the same way that a spell level, a class level, and a caster level are not the same thing.

It doesn't matter. The cohort rules aren't specific to the Leadership feat. See DMG pp104-105.


Dragon Disciple is for Sorcerers that want Str, HP, a lousy breath weapon, and no casting. The fact that it gives you blindsense and flight is appreciated, but you can get those from spells (which it barely gives you) making this terrible. The capstone is a terribly unoptimized template, and the only reason to take that template normally is the possibility of a dragon pulling a Darth Vader with "No, I am your father,"...and this PrC takes even that bit of coolness away from it.
Dragon Disciple isn't intended for Sorcerers, it's intended for Barbarians and Fighters. From the class description: "Most are barbarians, fighters, or rangers who have dabbled as sorcerers or bards." And it's actually one of the best core options for martial classes, offering some nice stat boosts along with abilities like blindsense and wings that are a lot more relevant than what a single-classed Barbarian would be getting.


Loremaster is a great PrC, and is my idea of an ideal full casting PrC; it gives useful, but not overpowered abilities, and gives full casting progression. Before splatbooks, Wizard 5/Loremaster 10/Archmage 5 was the standard wizard build for a reason. This is awesome in several ways.

How are you qualifying for Loremaster at 5th level? You need 10 ranks in two Knowledge skills.

[AvatarVecna]

Dragon Disciple isn't intended for Sorcerers, it's intended for Barbarians and Fighters. From the class description: "Most are barbarians, fighters, or rangers who have dabbled as sorcerers or bards." And it's actually one of the best core options for martial classes, offering some nice stat boosts along with abilities like blindsense and wings that are a lot more relevant than what a single-classed Barbarian would be getting.

How are you qualifying for Loremaster at 5th level? You need 10 ranks in two Knowledge skills.

I see my basic glance-over wasn't very thorough. Still, I stand by my general opinions of the classes, even if some details are less than ideal. Also, I maintain that Dragon Disciple is terrible even for Barbarians, Fighters, and Rangers, because slightly higher stats isn't anything very impressive, and it takes forever to get the decent stuff.

[Flickerdart]

It doesn't matter. The cohort rules aren't specific to the Leadership feat. See DMG pp104-105
Yes, it does matter - because "cohort" and "planar cohort" are not the same thing. This is blatantly obvious when reading the section you refer to - "There are no limitations on the class, race, or gender of a character’s cohorts, nor limits to the number of cohorts who can be employed by a character" explicitly goes against the rules for a planar cohort, or for that matter a wild cohort.

[Troacctid]

I see my basic glance-over wasn't very thorough. Still, I stand by my general opinions of the classes, even if some details are less than ideal. Also, I maintain that Dragon Disciple is terrible even for Barbarians, Fighters, and Rangers, because slightly higher stats isn't anything very impressive, and it takes forever to get the decent stuff.

It looks a lot better once you consider what you're giving up. "Oh no, I had to sacrifice an extra two rages per day, three whole points of damage reduction, and a whopping three points of trap sense! Woe is me!" :smalltongue:


Yes, it does matter - because "cohort" and "planar cohort" are not the same thing. This is blatantly obvious when reading the section you refer to - "There are no limitations on the class, race, or gender of a character’s cohorts, nor limits to the number of cohorts who can be employed by a character" explicitly goes against the rules for a planar cohort, or for that matter a wild cohort.

Right, so an extraplanar outsider is perfectly valid as a cohort. Thaumaturgist is, of course, allowed to place additional restrictions on the type of cohort you can choose, since specific exceptions take precedence over general rules.

The text is crystal-clear that the planar cohort is a cohort. It uses the word "cohort" like a bajillion times, and even explicitly clarifies what happens if you also already have a cohort via Leadership. I don't think there's any wiggle room on the RAW here. It's a cohort. It uses the cohort rules, except as noted.

[tilionvevfet]

Hierophant deserves an honorable mention for letting the druid share his wildshape with the barbarian or monk. Both are now subject to greater magic fang and so on. The barbarian adds full BAB, rage and high hp to his wildshape while the monk adds grapple damage that doesn't suck to his heavily boosted grapple modifier. Otherwise your damage is so low that the grappler is disabling himself as much as he's disabling the enemy. The rest of the hierophant abilities are pretty bad. Sharing a heavily optimized turning might be nice in extremely specific campaigns, or in the hands of a cohort to cheese out DMM.

Unfortunately, straight druid can't get into Hierophant until epic because of the class requirements.:smallsigh:



Requirements
To qualify to become a hierophant, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Skills
Knowledge (religion) 15 ranks.

[Flickerdart]

Right, so an extraplanar outsider is perfectly valid as a cohort. Thaumaturgist is, of course, allowed to place additional restrictions on the type of cohort you can choose, since specific exceptions take precedence over general rules.

The text is crystal-clear that the planar cohort is a cohort. It uses the word "cohort" like a bajillion times, and even explicitly clarifies what happens if you also already have a cohort via Leadership. I don't think there's any wiggle room on the RAW here. It's a cohort. It uses the cohort rules, except as noted.
No. If the planar cohort were a generic cohort, there would be some kind of reference made to those rules. There isn't - and they even reference that same chapter (where Leadership is) so they didn't forget about it.

You can always try to bamboozle your DM into giving a planar cohort free levels*, though. Can't hurt to try, eh?

Character levels, not spell levels or caster levels, in case you also think all levels use the same rules.

[AvatarVecna]

It looks a lot better once you consider what you're giving up.

Only until you get out of Core. With non-Core material available, Blackguard (as a dip), Mystic Theurge (paired with another theurge PrC), and Shadowdancer (as a dip) get much more useful, while Dragon Disciple becomes less useful than, say, Bear Warrior, Fist of the Forest, or Frenzied Berserker (for barbarians), EWM or Kensai (for fighters), and even Rage Mage (for Barbarian/Sorcerers).

With only Core, I'd rather have a Barbarian than a Dragon-worshipping sell-out, and outside of Core, I'd rather have Rage Mage or Bear Warrior, just because.

[Ravens_cry]

'Schroedinger’s Dragon Disciple' always gives the rules lawyer in me a giggle. For those not aware, you can not be a half-dragon and be a DD, but level 10 gives you the half-dragon template. Since you no longer meet the requirements, you lose access to the DD class features, which includes the half-dragon template. But wait! Now you meet the requirements, which means you gain them, which means you lose them, etcetera, etcetera, ad nauseam, amen. It's pretty obvious how it's supposed to go, but it's still one of those little bits of RAW silliness. Honestly, I think it's a pretty silly requirement. A human or other race with only a drop of the blood can increase their inner dragon, but not the bastard scion of a mighty drake.

[AvatarVecna]

'Schroedinger’s Dragon Disciple' always gives the rules lawyer in me a giggle. For those not aware, you can not be a half-dragon and be a DD, but level 10 gives you the half-dragon template. Since you no longer meet the requirements, you lose access to the DD class features, which includes the half-dragon template. But wait! Now you meet the requirements, which means you gain them, which means you lose them, etcetera, etcetera, ad nauseam, amen. It's pretty obvious how it's supposed to go, but it's still one of those little bits of RAW silliness. Honestly, I think it's a pretty silly requirement. A human or other race with only a drop of the blood can increase their inner dragon, but not the bastard scion of a mighty drake.

Even better, it only works that way if you believe that the PrC qualification rules in Complete Warrior apply to all books. Either way, weird things start happening.