Roy's falling sword

[RobbyPants]

Oops! Delete! Double post!

[EYanyo]

Oh, come on. Remember your basic laws of physics: everything falls at the same rate. The sword started out above Roy, so Roy would land first. Wind resistence only factors in a small deal into this, since both objects have a fairly large mass (I'd extimate the sword weighs at least 7 kilos). So they'd both accelerate at 9.81 m/s^2, and Roy would land first.

[Idless]

I am sure, that both Roy and the Sword fell by the "speed of plot"(p)

P = F / n * uu

where F is the real physhics involved, n is the relativity to other objects, determined by dramatic effect. uu is afactor determined by the writers intention.

there you have it - time to close discussion ;)

...Idless

[One Skunk Todd]

Poor poor catgirls. :(

[Threeshades]

I am sure, that both Roy and the Sword fell by the "speed of plot"(p)

P = F / n * uu

where F is the real physhics involved, n is the relativity to other objects, determined by dramatic effect. uu is afactor determined by the writers intention.

there you have it - time to close discussion ;)

...Idless

speed of drama in this case (the impact of the sword was only on the ground not on the plot so it was merely for a dramatic effect)

[Jari Kafghan]

Just being a pain, but I doubt that sword would weigh even 3 kilos.

One of those common misconceptions about medieval weapons is they all weighed a ton. Besides this one has star metal, that has to count for something.

[felinoel]

Just being a pain, but I doubt that sword would weigh even 3 kilos.

One of those common misconceptions about medieval weapons is they all weighed a ton. Besides this one has star metal, that has to count for something.
i would think this star metal weighed more

[Thorin]

Just being a pain, but I doubt that sword would weigh even 3 kilos.

One of those common misconceptions about medieval weapons is they all weighed a ton. Besides this one has star metal, that has to count for something.

indded, Roy says that its heavier than it was before beeing re-forged; so starmetal did count for something, but i wouldn´t use that as an argunment of the-sword-beeing-lighter.

PD: I own two two-handed swords in my house actually (yes, i do. Both from 1720´s in memory of the fundation of some dorky city) and i can confirmate that they weight a lot mote than 3 kilos. Easily 7 as said above

[Thorin]

I don´t see what i just posted, so i apologize if i double post

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0308.html
1st plot. Roy says that the sword is heavier

[Rad]

In real life, the term "star metal" comes from the Ancient Greek word for iron (sideros). So the star metal is actually iron (we are talking of bronze age here).
There was no technology to extract iron from mines; all the iron out there was the one found on the surface and coming from fallen asteroids (hence the name); it was then very rare and very, VERY valuable.

As for the falling time, the sword has a more aerodynamic shape and should then fall faster than a human body. Moreover the heavier part is the hilt, which is made so to partially balance the weight of the blade, so it should not fall down on its point but on the pommel.
Looking at the last panel of the previous strip, the sword is not in line with Roy but moved sideways, meaning that it was moving away from Roy and it should continue to do so while falling, thus hitting the ground pretty far from Roy's point of impact.

I guess that's all I noticed (for now) about the physics over there. I know... poor catgirls :smallfrown:

However, one should not look at real physics since the world of OoTS is NOT the regular one, but the laws of physic there are just the D&D rules. Which do NOT include aerodynamics or the inertia principle. Details such as what part of the sword hits the ground first are up to the DM (or, in this case, the author).

That said, the falling scene was AWESOME as it was, the giant made a terrific work and, as noted above, if you like physics to be respected you should stay away from D&D in the first place :smallsmile:

[JT]

Moreover the heavier part is the hilt, which is made so to partially balance the weight of the blade, so it should not fall down on its point but on the pommel.

It's a +5 sword. It magically tries to hit things point or edge-first, and do damage. Fortunately, the ground has lots and lots of hit points, and isn't in danger of dying from being impaled.

[ThorFluff]

for all we know the sword could have been spinning untill the point where it hit.
oh and: WikiQuotes:
The Zweihänder could be up to 6 ft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_%28unit_of_length%29) (1.8 m (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre)) long from the base of the pommel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommel) to the tip of the blade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade), with a 4–5 ft (1.2–1.5 m) blade and 1–1½ ft (30–45 cm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centimetre)) hilt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilt). The weight could range between 2 kg and 3.2 kg

The average claymore ran about 140 cm (55") in overall length, with a 33 cm (13") grip, 107 cm (42") blade, and a weight of approximately 2.5 kg (5.5 lb),

I would say a normal "Greatsword" is something inbetween those two.
So 7 Kilos!? pfft one would hardly be able to use it! Imagine swinging 3 boxes of milk around, or 10 cokacola cans! thats alot in its own right, imagine swinging 35 colacans (about 7 kilos) instead, thats utterly useless in combat.

[Thornin Darkeye]

Def. Terminal velocity is the velocity reached when the force cause by gravity is equal to the force of the air resistance pushing up on the object folled.

The sword will actually only reach its terminal velocity faster because of its aeodynamics(sp). F= m.a. ( mass times acceleration)The gravitational force put on the sword is much less than the gravitational force put on Roy strictly because Roy has a larger mass. Thus the force needed to bring the sword to its terminal velocity will be smaller, thus the terminal velocity will be smaller. . The fact the the sword is aerodynamic just means it will take longer to reach that terminal velocity. So even if the sword was balanced when it was made it will eventually stop accelerating because it has reached terminal velocity, while Roy will keep accelerating and begin to move faster.
Based on how much time Roy had to fall he must have fallen a very very long ways, certainly providing enough time for the sword to reach its terminal velocity. Thus there could have easily been enough time for Roy to fall faster than the sword long enough for Roy to beat the sword to the ground.


- Dont argue with a physics major
Every object has a specific terminal velocity,

[Thornin Darkeye]

I'm not even saying it defies the laws of physics in any real world. I'm actually saying it abides to them, provided the fall be far enough.

i just felt the need to explain it to those of you who are complaining that it was impossible

[Erloas]

The best reason I've seen for this sort of thing, since this has come up before, is that this is D&D and in D&D everything moves in turns, not at the same time. Since Roy is still alive at that point he automatically beats any non-attended inanimate objects. So Roy beats the sword on initiative and they are falling at the same basic rate, so Roy gets to the ground durning his turn and the sword follows shortly after durning its turn.

[Threeshades]

The best reason I've seen for this sort of thing, since this has come up before, is that this is D&D and in D&D everything moves in turns, not at the same time. Since Roy is still alive at that point he automatically beats any non-attended inanimate objects. So Roy beats the sword on initiative and they are falling at the same basic rate, so Roy gets to the ground durning his turn and the sword follows shortly after durning its turn.

This is the kind of science you are allowed to apply here. NONE OTHER! :furious:


nuff said. :amused:

[CardinalFang]

Newtonian physics would dictate that the force of a Meteor Swarm to the chest would give Roy enough initial velocity to compensate for the decreased air friction the sword would experience, especially if they fell from low enough that terminal velocity for either of them is not a significant factor. So even though the sword would ACCELERATE slightly faster, because the air doesn't counteract as much of the gravitational pull, Roy started with enough initial downward velocity to still hit the ground first.

That, and EVERYONE knows that the sword always falls point-first into the ground after the person has finished falling. It's like a blazing tire rolling out of a car wreck; it's just one of the laws of narrative causality.

[moleytov]

Perhaps the giant just really hates catgirls and did it so we could have this debate? I think that the equation by Idless in post #3 needs to take this into account.

[nusigf]

I am sure, that both Roy and the Sword fell by the "speed of plot"(p)

P = F / n * uu

where F is the real physhics involved, n is the relativity to other objects, determined by dramatic effect. uu is afactor determined by the writers intention.

there you have it - time to close discussion ;)

...Idless

Browncoats!

[nusigf]

I don´t see what i just posted, so i apologize if i double post

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0308.html
1st plot. Roy says that the sword is heavier

What does "heavier" have to do with velocity of a falling object? Pre-Newtonian logic shouldn't apply just because this is nominally set before the medieval period...

[Wyborn]

Def. Terminal velocity is the velocity reached when the force cause by gravity is equal to the force of the air resistance pushing up on the object folled.

The sword will actually only reach its terminal velocity faster because of its aeodynamics(sp). F= m.a. ( mass times acceleration)The gravitational force put on the sword is much less than the gravitational force put on Roy strictly because Roy has a larger mass. Thus the force needed to bring the sword to its terminal velocity will be smaller, thus the terminal velocity will be smaller. . The fact the the sword is aerodynamic just means it will take longer to reach that terminal velocity. So even if the sword was balanced when it was made it will eventually stop accelerating because it has reached terminal velocity, while Roy will keep accelerating and begin to move faster.
Based on how much time Roy had to fall he must have fallen a very very long ways, certainly providing enough time for the sword to reach its terminal velocity. Thus there could have easily been enough time for Roy to fall faster than the sword long enough for Roy to beat the sword to the ground.


- Dont argue with a physics major
Every object has a specific terminal velocity,

A physics major?

Then how did you forget that the inertia of the sword is going to be less, so the same acceleration will be achieved with gravity's smaller pull?

The sword and Roy will accelerate at the same speed - if Roy begins falling first (and he did, with the Meteor Swarm hitting him while he let go of his sword) then he's going to be traveling faster the entire time. Neither of them is going to have time to reach "terminal velocity", which doesn't exist in D&D anyway to the best of my knowledge, so Roy beginning to fall at a greater initial velocity is going to create enough of a timing difference to mean he hits the ground noticeably before his sword.

[Merlin the Tuna]

What does "heavier" have to do with velocity of a falling object? Pre-Newtonian logic shouldn't apply just because this is nominally set before the medieval period...Even pre-Newtonian shouldn't make a big difference, as Galileo was the first to demonstrate the independence of mass from acceleration, and many before him held it as theory.

And this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) comic is the better one for establishing the weight of starmetal.

[Lorgarn]

The weight of the sword is completly irrelewant for its falling speed. It might hit the groud first, due to its lesser air fraction. But I think it would hit the gound on its pommel and not on it tip more properly, for it has the weight more towards the hilt.
I do not know, how much weapons weight in dnd exactly and how much the starmettal affacts the weight, but greatswords around 1500 did not weight more then 3 kilograms. You can find proper values on the websites of museums. I had real weapons from that time in my hand, and due to the training of techniques IMHO you can not fight with a sword, having the double weight of a normal, real weapon.

Regards
Lorgarn.

[Thorin]

I love this nerd comunity (in the good way, for thor´s sake)

1) when i said that the "new" sword is heavier, it was to correct who said that it should be lighter

2) as weight is a force: (weight = mass x gravity aceleration); an object that is heavier than before, implies that the object has gained mass

Taking "Fisica I" have real aplications o.O .who would know?

[CardinalFang]

I love this nerd comunity (in the good way, for thor´s sake)

1) when i said that the "new" sword is heavier, it was to correct who said that it should be lighter

2) as weight is a force: (weight = mass x gravity aceleration); an object that is heavier than before, implies that the object has gained mass

Taking "Fisica I" have real aplications o.O .who would know?
But gravitational acceleration is independent of mass. Weight has no bearing whatsoever on how quickly something falls.

[RiOrius]

A couple points:

First, the sword landing point-first makes can easily make sense. Imagine a lawn dart: the weight is towards the back of the dart, and it lands point-first. Or, if you have some stuff on you, tape a bunch of quarters to a pencil and give it a toss. It's due to some aerodynamics stuff I used to understand (had something to do with center of pressure...).

Second, weight does affect how quickly things fall. The rate at which an object accelerates depends on the sum of the forces acting upon it, divided by the object's mass. When falling in atmosphere, there are two forces acting on an object: gravity and air resistance. The force of gravity depends on mass (and, technically, distance from the planet, but that's irrelevant here), and air resistance depends on aerodynamics of the object and its velocity (squared). Now, if you disregard air resistance (as you often do in physics class), the masses cancel out and acceleration is independent of mass.

However, taking air resistance into account, this no longer applies. Now, the acceleration due to gravity of an object would be equal to its acceleration in vacuum (which is mass-independent) minus the force of air resistance divided by mass. So, the higher the mass, the faster it'll fall (all other things being constant).

In this case, all other things aren't constant: the sword and Roy have different aerodynamics, and as such will experience different amounts of air resistance. Roy is less aerodynamic, and thus he should have more air resistance acting upon him. This could conceivably slow him down enough that the sword would hit first. That said, without numbers, we can't really be sure. So unless you want to find out the coefficient of air resistance for a falling human and do some number-crunching, we can just assume that the numbers work out to reflect what the strip says.

[Wyborn]

The only thing is that air resistance doesn't come into play here: objects take the same damage falling from the same height regardless of their mass, which means that their rates of acceleration have to be exactly the same. It's one thing to try to kill catgirls; it's another to have the rules slap you in the face about it.

[knownaspirate]

wait wait wait! stop the thread!!!

you're killing cat girls!

[Setra]

I'd just like to note something..

Roy's sword seems to be almost as tall as Roy, and it's pretty wide, so I'd wager it's heavier than a Claymore or Zweihander, due to the width. Not to mention it's hard to tell how thick the sword is, but I'd wager about 6 kilos.