[3.5] Whirlwind Attack & Great Cleave

[Thurbane]

If Whirlwind Attack and Great Cleave worked together, and you could get them with less (or no) feat tax, would the combo be worth it?

Assume two scenarios:

1.) A medium character with a reach weapon (i.e. no reach optimization/shenanigans).

2.) A character optimized for maximum reach.

Cheers - T

[OldTrees1]

Doesn't Whirlwind Attack forbid extra attacks like Great Cleave?

[Andreaz]

It does. The use clause on WA is somewhat like "you give up any bonus attacks"

[Troacctid]

That's why it's hypothetical. We're also assuming no Spring Attack feat tax.

No, it probably wouldn't be worth it, generally. The combo only works in an extremely specific kind of encounter: one where you have a horde of weak enemies positioned near a small number of strong enemies. If you just have weak enemies, then you don't need Whirlwind Attack because you're already cleaving through them. If you just have strong enemies, you won't actually be getting extra attacks out of Great Cleave.

Of course, this assumes you're not bringing a bag full of chickens into every fight so you can Whirlwind them all down and cleave into your real target every time one of them drops. If that's the case, then I think you've discovered why the feats don't work together.

[Necroticplague]

That's why it's hypothetical. We're also assuming no Spring Attack feat tax.

No, it probably wouldn't be worth it, generally. The combo only works in an extremely specific kind of encounter: one where you have a horde of weak enemies positioned near a small number of strong enemies. If you just have weak enemies, then you don't need Whirlwind Attack because you're already cleaving through them. If you just have strong enemies, you won't actually be getting extra attacks out of Great Cleave.

Of course, this assumes you're not bringing a bag full of chickens into every fight so you can Whirlwind them all down and cleave into your real target every time one of them drops. If that's the case, then I think you've discovered why the feats don't work together.

They used to work like that. They changed it because people tried that. Though that would be one of the less horrifically abusive uses for Chicken Infested I've seen.

More on topic, I pretty much agree with this quote. It wouldn't be too powerful unless abused to heck and back, because it requires a very specific situation to come into much play.

[Telok]

It's the feat taxes that make the whole thing bad. If it weren't for that it wouldn't be horrible. It's not super flexable like Planar Binding or completely encounter stopping like a DMM:Heighten DC 45 AoE Save or Lose but it isn't terribad.

You'd generally need three or more enemies within the inital reach, some way to move between cleaves, and the expectation that two or more enemies would drop. On a Scout with Travel Devotion, two handed PA, and Wraithstrike it could work out. The problem is generally that melee has to devote all or almost all resouces to it's primary trick.

Pull a free move to activate skirmish and move into position, PA for full, hit the weakest first and direct the cleaves towards either the boss or the next most wounded. Moving between cleaves would increase the virtual reach of the whirlwind adding more targets.

On second thought using the sneak attack Fighter variant in combination with any way to get SA (allied caster with a SaveOrSuck?) wouldn't need the Travel Devotion. Well, not to activate damage anyways. Splash some pounce Barbarian and Sudden Leap in for mobility to get to the middle of the melee and move around in it.

If you could just take the Supreme Cleave and Whirlwind feats without the taxes it wouldn't be a terrible trick for a non-ToB warrior. You could add Improved Trip to help a bit too. But it does assume that you are still at a level and optimization range where melee matters and that you fight more than enormous monsters, solo monsters, and spell casters.

The tactic does work on more than just mooks but you need to be in the kind of game where you face 5 to 10 medium power enemies and your allied caster can drop an AoE on them to soften them up but not auto-kill them. So not top tier optimization games. Unfortunately it probably needs top tier optimization to get the damage output and the whirl-cleave-move-cleave-continue to work.

[OldTrees1]

If they could work together then you get +1 attack vs a real target per non real target(1 hit kills) within reach. This is a weaker form of the Knock-down Mighty Swing technique (+several attacks per standing target be they a real or a non real target).

[Lerondiel]

That's why it's hypothetical. We're also assuming no Spring Attack feat tax.

No, it probably wouldn't be worth it, generally. The combo only works in an extremely specific kind of encounter: one where you have a horde of weak enemies positioned near a small number of strong enemies. If you just have weak enemies, then you don't need Whirlwind Attack because you're already cleaving through them. If you just have strong enemies, you won't actually be getting extra attacks out of Great Cleave.

Of course, this assumes you're not bringing a bag full of chickens into every fight so you can Whirlwind them all down and cleave into your real target every time one of them drops. If that's the case, then I think you've discovered why the feats don't work together.

Of course it's highly illegal to utilise chickens without Grt Consumptive Field active :P

[Crake]

or completely encounter stopping like a DMM:Heighten DC 45 AoE Save or Lose

I feel like it's worth noting that Heighten spell caps at 9th level spells, so this is in not a thing.

[Elandris Kajar]

Can someone tell me where chicken-infested is from?

[Karnith]

Can someone tell me where chicken-infested is from?
Dragon Magazine #330, p. 87.

[Telok]

I feel like it's worth noting that Heighten spell caps at 9th level spells, so this is in not a thing.

Do we have a source on that?

[OldTrees1]

Do we have a source on that?

Yes we do have a source

Improved Heighten Spell [Epic]
Prerequisites
Heighten Spell, Spellcraft 20 ranks.

Benefit
As Heighten Spell, but there is no limit to the level to which you can heighten the spell.

Normal
Without this feat, a spell can only be heightened to a maximum of 9th level.

[Karnith]

Additionally: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#heightenSpell)

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
(Emphasis mine)

[Psyren]

They used to work like that. They changed it because people tried that. Though that would be one of the less horrifically abusive uses for Chicken Infested I've seen.

More on topic, I pretty much agree with this quote. It wouldn't be too powerful unless abused to heck and back, because it requires a very specific situation to come into much play.

I'd like to add to this a relevant post (http://dreamscarred.com/the-bag-of-kittens-and-you/) from our own Lord Gareth on the subject.

The crux of it is that mechanics that break with "bag of kittens" (or boiling anthills, or chicken infestations, or what have you) may not actually be broken if they cost the player more resources than they gain, or even just break even.

Of course, having said that, I do think this interaction shouldn't be allowed - because whatever action it takes to plant yourself among strong enemies and surround your remaining space with chickens to whirlcleave off of, you'll easily make up later that round or the following round by effectively getting multiple full-attacks at full BAB off on each strong enemy surrounding you. So I can see why this was changed.

[Telok]

Additionally: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#heightenSpell)

(Emphasis mine)

Interesting, that's not in the PH I have. Eh, it just means you use a different route to get the unsaveable DC.

[Karnith]

Interesting, that's not in the PH I have.
Huh, that's... odd. I have a first-printing PHB, and it has the 9th-level maximum.