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InaVegt
2007-05-03, 12:37 PM
The cleric spell access class feature specifies spells not on your class spell list gained through this class ability are considered to be divine spells. This has created within me a couple of questions.

Does this qualify me for requirements as ‘ability to cast Xth level divine spells’?
Does this qualify my spellcasting as that of a divine spellcasting class?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-05-03, 12:52 PM
Uh... Which class's class feature?

In any case, if you can cast a spell, and it is considered a divine spell, then, yes, you would meet any "casts divine spells" prerequisite, even if your class normally doesn't cast such spells.

(I'm assuming we're discussing some sort of prestige class that lets wizards cast a few divine spells, yes?)

InaVegt
2007-05-03, 12:56 PM
Uh... Which class's class feature?

In any case, if you can cast a spell, and it is considered a divine spell, then, yes, you would meet any "casts divine spells" prerequisite, even if your class normally doesn't cast such spells.

(I'm assuming we're discussing some sort of prestige class that lets wizards cast a few divine spells, yes?)

The infamous cleric spell spell access of the rainbow servant. (which has already been abused by a very potent warmage build)

I was pretty sure of part I, I'm more concerned about part II (which, if the answer is yes, opens whole new levels of cheese)

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-05-03, 01:18 PM
The infamous cleric spell spell access of the rainbow servant. (which has already been abused by a very potent warmage build)
Figured it was something like that, but I just wanted to make sure.

Anyway, part II... I'm not really sure. Perhaps we should page a certain beholder scholar?

okpokalypse
2007-05-03, 01:20 PM
The infamous cleric spell spell access of the rainbow servant. (which has already been abused by a very potent warmage build)

I was pretty sure of part I, I'm more concerned about part II (which, if the answer is yes, opens whole new levels of cheese)

In answer to I :

Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don’t appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists. This class feature grants access to the spells, but not extra spells per day.
In answer to II:

If the requirement for a PrC is "Able to cast Divine Spells of X Level" yes. If it's specific Divine Spells, then obviously, you'd need to take them. But all around, the answer is yes.

However, my own 2 cents:

Why? I've always found the Rainbow Servant to be one of the worst PrCs out there. You lose 4 Levels of Spell Progression and still cast from only 1 spell pool. That means no 9th Level Spells and the same amount of spells known / castable. And because you enter it at 6th Level at the Earliest (7th for a Sorcerer) you'd be L 15 (or L 16) when you finally get that ability.

I don't see why one wouldn't just take Wizard 7 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 10. L9 Arcane Spells + L7 Divine Spell + 2 Separate Spell Progressions. You'd cast longer and have better spells at your disposal. The only thing you wouldn't have are L8 & L9 Divine Spells (Or Arcane Spells if you went Cleric 7 / Wizard 3).

If the 9th Level spells aren't a big deal (They would be to me - but to each their own) and the spontanaity more important, I'd recommend Sorcerer 6 / Favored Soul 4 / Mystic Theurge 10. 8th Level Arcane + 7th Level Divine + 2 Separate Progressions + 1 Primary Casting Stat (Cha) + All Spontaneous Casting. Compared to the Rainbow Servant Concept you gain 38 Divine Spells per day (n/ Incl Cha Bonus), 36 Divine Spells Known and all you'd lose is the ability to learn a single 8th Level Divine Spell when all is said and done.

If you wanted to be minorly cheesy about it, go Sorcerer 4 / Favored Soul 4 / Sacred Exorcist 2 (Arcane Spells) / Mystic Theurge 10. Now you've also got Turn Undead ability, and can thus get Divine Meta-Magic. With as high as your Cha will be, that's a lot of free Maximizes, Quickens or Persists - whatever route you go.

InaVegt
2007-05-03, 01:28 PM
If we just assume the answer to II is yes, then I'd like to ask what you think of the following base of a build:

Wizard 5/rainbow servant 5/mystic theurge 5

Wizard just grants you 5 caster levels, RS grants you 6 and on the border of RAW (either just out or just in it) mystic theurge grants you 10 caster levels.

This is caster level 21 at character level 20, with loads of other abilities.

Or slightly cheesier:

Warmage 6/RS 10/MT 4

Granting you a spells known list of all warmage and cleric spells (+3 additional domains), a whole slew of class abilities and caster level 20.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-03, 01:50 PM
I smell Cheddar!

A Rainbow Servant is not a divine spellcasting class it just grants the ability to cast divine spells, which will help you to qualify for a lot of things such as Mystic Theurge for example.

However, unless you have a level of divine spellcasting class you will not benefit from the "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class" granted by the Mystic Theurge class.

Furthermore, you must be at least a level 10 Rainbow Servant to obtain Cleric spell access.

okpokalypse
2007-05-03, 02:05 PM
If we just assume the answer to II is yes, then I'd like to ask what you think of the following base of a build:

Wizard 5/rainbow servant 5/mystic theurge 5

Wizard just grants you 5 caster levels, RS grants you 6 and on the border of RAW (either just out or just in it) mystic theurge grants you 10 caster levels.

You don't gain the ability to get Divine Spells until Rainbow Servant L10. So when you're L5, you have access to the Good and Air Domains and those spells are Arcane Spells (CD p20 - Extra Domains). Also, Rainbow Servants get no spell progression at L1, L4, L7 and L10. So when you're a Wizard 5 / RainBow Servant 5 you've only got 8 Levels of Caster Progression (I don't know how you came up with 11), and a base Caster Level 8. You won't gain the ability to cast Divine Spells until Level 16 (Wizard 5 / Rainbow Servant 10) and by then you've only got 11 Levels of Wizard w/ the ability to add/cast Divine Spells. And you're only Caster Level 11 - that's 6th Level Spells for you while a Straight Wizard has 8th Level Spells. Or a Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 has two progressions of 7th Level Spells!!!

And Mystic Theurge doesn't double-stack your caster level. Each Level you'd go up 1 Caster Level and advance spellcasting in an Arcane and Divine progression as if you'd just levelled - per the RAW. Since you have no 2nd Progression - it gives you no benefit at all. None.


This is caster level 21 at character level 20, with loads of other abilities.

Or slightly cheesier:

Warmage 6/RS 10/MT 4

Granting you a spells known list of all warmage and cleric spells (+3 additional domains), a whole slew of class abilities and caster level 20.

Again, your caster level would only be 16. MT doesn't double stack CLs.

Rainbow Servant really is a horrible PrC. It seems all nice and shiny when you think you can bend the rules with it - but what you give up to add Cleric spells is often way more than what you'd give up going other routes.

okpokalypse
2007-05-03, 02:17 PM
Incidentally, the only Arcane PrC progression that I can think of off the top of my head that allows one to operate at a CL > 20 without items is the Ultimate Magus. If one were to take Practiced Spellcaster one could have their Primary of the two Arcane Classes they progress in be CL 20 before the Class Bonus of +4 CL. Then adding items and the right feats / dips could get them as high as a total +10 CL.

Divine Casters have it much easier. With ease they can hit CL 30. Bead of Karma (+4), Divine Spell Power (+4), Ioun Stone (+1), Domain Bonuses (+1). A Cleric with all those and the Domain of Good at L20 kills every non-good creature within 40' that has 20 HD or less w/o a Save or SR (Holy Word). It's brutal.

Jasdoif
2007-05-03, 02:24 PM
Hmm. Now, I don't have access to Complete Divine here, so this might be wrong, so I'm asking: Do the domain spells granted by Arcane Disciple (I think that's what the feat is called) count as divine, if they don't appear on the wizard's spell list?

And if so, would it be valid to take three levels of wizard to get access to 2nd-level arcane and divine spells (assuming the 2nd level domain spell isn't on the wizard's list), then take a level of cleric, then use Mystic Theurge to advance wizard and cleric casting?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-03, 02:31 PM
No, the spells from the domain granted by Arcane Disciple (and extra domains in general from prestige classes and such) are considered arcane spells even if they only appear on a divine spell list.

lord_khaine
2007-05-03, 02:32 PM
as i recall in the description of the rainbow servant, it says that he increases his caster lv on each lv, and since text overrule the charts, then this prestige class is suddenly a lot more effective.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-03, 02:44 PM
as i recall in the description of the rainbow servant, it says that he increases his caster lv on each lv, and since text overrule the charts, then this prestige class is suddenly a lot more effective.

Technically you are correct.

However, the paragraph is clearly copy/pasted and a rough generalization as many of such entries for prestige classes. (See also the DMG for further examples)

This is also illustrated by the example Rainbow Servant featured immediately after the class description. (Sorcerer 6/RS 4: CL 8)

In this case the table is clearly the intended progression.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-05-04, 01:19 AM
In this case the table is clearly the intended progression.

Congratulations! You're making an undefinable argument.

Let's not bring this up. This has been a huge argument over the course of the D&D internet community since the class was first printed.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-04, 01:52 AM
That is not an argument, but a conclusion based on the observations mentioned earlier in my post, which you decided not to quote.

TheOOB
2007-05-04, 02:09 AM
The warmage/rainbow servent combo was mentioned, and I don't belive it works how one would think it works. The warmage class specifically mentions that when they gain a level they learn all spells on the warmage class list. The clerical spell access ability doesn't add spells to your class list like a domain would, but rather gives you the ability to learn clerical spells, thus you could use a warmages advanced learning to learn cleric evocation spells, but otherwise a warmage gains no benefit from the clerical spell access ability.

JaronK
2007-05-04, 03:48 AM
as i recall in the description of the rainbow servant, it says that he increases his caster lv on each lv, and since text overrule the charts, then this prestige class is suddenly a lot more effective.

It's worth noting that in the translated versions of this book, the text does mention the gaps in progression, so the typo is indeed in the text of the English version.

JaronK

lord_khaine
2007-05-04, 04:34 AM
huh? well i dont have any translatet books, so my Rainbow servants will continue to have full caster lv :P

( at least if i ever bother to make 1)

Caelestion
2007-05-04, 04:42 AM
Although limited-list casters are the way to go, can you imagine the ridiculousness of a Beguiler or Warmage etc. who has 10 levels in RS? It's just stupid.

InaVegt
2007-05-04, 04:47 AM
The warmage/rainbow servent combo was mentioned, and I don't belive it works how one would think it works. The warmage class specifically mentions that when they gain a level they learn all spells on the warmage class list. The clerical spell access ability doesn't add spells to your class list like a domain would, but rather gives you the ability to learn clerical spells, thus you could use a warmages advanced learning to learn cleric evocation spells, but otherwise a warmage gains no benefit from the clerical spell access ability.

No, it states they're added to you spell list, which is why the combination is so broken.

okpokalypse
2007-05-04, 09:16 AM
It's worth noting that in the translated versions of this book, the text does mention the gaps in progression, so the typo is indeed in the text of the English version.

JaronK

This has also been addressed by The Sage. Rainbow Servant, Sacred Fist and Seeker of the Misty Isle have all been cited as having incorrect text, and that the respective tables (2-16, 2-18 and 2-19 in the CD) are the correct spell advancement progression.

And in reference to what another person posted: You are correct that the WarMage would not have access to Cleric Spells via this class. Classes with full automatic access (that do not learn spells) do not have additional spells added unless they specifically add to spell list. Just because they can now learn Divine Spells doesn't mean they are added to the class list the way Arcane Disciple. Extra Domains have the same drawback for a WarMage. They gain access to learn the spells - they are NOT added to their spell list. Many DMs houserule this - but in the RAW it's pretty clear that a WarMage should not benefit from these.

okpokalypse
2007-05-04, 09:31 AM
No, it states they're added to you spell list, which is why the combination is so broken.

On Extra Domains:


If the noncleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell. A sorcerer does not get to exceed his normal limit of spells known.

This has been directly addressed by The Sage numerous times. In the case of WarMages & Beguilers, they gain no benefit because gaining an Extra Domains only allows one to add those spells to your known spells when one levels. It does not automatically put them all on the list.

On Cleric Spell Access:


A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has. Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don’t appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists.

Nowhere does this imply that the spells are added to the existing class list - but that they can be learned. This falls under the exact same umbrell as Extra Domains, and gives NO benefit to WarMages and Beguilers.

Jothki
2007-05-04, 03:31 PM
On Cleric Spell Access:


A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has. Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don’t appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists.


Nowhere does this imply that the spells are added to the existing class list - but that they can be learned. This falls under the exact same umbrell as Extra Domains, and gives NO benefit to WarMages and Beguilers.




As written, Warmages and Beguilers can learn AND cast those spells, though. The mechanics aren't actually stated, but the rules clearly state that there is a way it can be done.

deadseashoals
2007-05-04, 03:42 PM
So broken that you can cast 9th level spells! Oh, wait..