Saints Row 3 (and 4) vs GTA V

[Avilan the Grey]

Disclaimer: ...I already have the Saints Row games.
My question is more... How do GTA rank up, really? I mean it is a higher budget product, with more serious story lines, I get that. But it is offset by a very disappointing lack of customization, it seems. I don't even know if you can customize clothes, guns and cars? But I do know that you have no way of customizing the character(s) you play which to me is downright criminal in an open world game. I have put GTA V on my Steam wishlist so I get a mail if it's on sale, but what really keeps me from buying it is the lack of a female protagonist.

[factotum]

As I understand it, you get a degree of character customisation when playing the online game, but not when playing single player. That's always been the GTA thing, though, since at least GTA3--you're always playing a specific character or characters, and the only customisation offered has been in the arena of clothing and maybe hairstyle.

[Avilan the Grey]

As I understand it, you get a degree of character customisation when playing the online game, but not when playing single player. That's always been the GTA thing, though, since at least GTA3--you're always playing a specific character or characters, and the only customisation offered has been in the arena of clothing and maybe hairstyle.

Thing is though, that in other (most other even) open world games you are also playing a specific character, that is you are locked into the narrative if you do the story quests, but you still have almost endless customization. Hell in the Saints Row games you can even play as a transexual.

[factotum]

Oh, I know, but as I said, that's never been GTA's thing--you can't play San Andreas as any character other than Carl Johnson, no matter how much you'd like to. It's entirely possible the insane levels of character customisation offered by Saints Row was primarily a "Hey look, we do this better than GTA!" feature rather than something they felt they really needed.

[Avilan the Grey]

Oh, I know, but as I said, that's never been GTA's thing--you can't play San Andreas as any character other than Carl Johnson, no matter how much you'd like to. It's entirely possible the insane levels of character customisation offered by Saints Row was primarily a "Hey look, we do this better than GTA!" feature rather than something they felt they really needed.

Well that's... not the way to look at it. Don't see it as a FU to GTA, but definitely a "this is how we want it done". Volatile seems to have a blast making these games, focusing 110% on AWESOME.
To be a little... crude about it, if you are not allowing customization, you are missing out a HUGE part of why a Sandbox exists. If you want a tight narrative with a fixed protagonist, a Tell-Tale approach seems more like something to aim for.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/447331671889821681/6BDE6AE4AFF31922C4C24B09F591F19F6724FF6A/

[factotum]

Well, if you want me to look at it another way, I disagree that character customisation is a primary reason for a sandbox game to exist. Any character I create in a sandbox is entirely different to myself anyway (my Boss in SR3 and SR4 was a somewhat statuesque dark-skinned woman with white hair, for instance), so being forced to play another character that's nothing like myself doesn't trouble me much. I stopped playing Gat out of Hell not because I was being forced to play as a character I didn't want to, but because 50% of the side missions seemed to involve the game's flying mechanics and I hated them with a passion.

[Avilan the Grey]

Well, if you want me to look at it another way, I disagree that character customisation is a primary reason for a sandbox game to exist. Any character I create in a sandbox is entirely different to myself anyway (my Boss in SR3 and SR4 was a somewhat statuesque dark-skinned woman with white hair, for instance), so being forced to play another character that's nothing like myself doesn't trouble me much. I stopped playing Gat out of Hell not because I was being forced to play as a character I didn't want to, but because 50% of the side missions seemed to involve the game's flying mechanics and I hated them with a passion.

Ah but that's the point. Or part of it at least. I am after all a 42 year old Swedish male. So playing a female character is just that, picking someone else than me. Plus, for some reason, I prefer female characters whenever possible, I have always done so. But my point is that in a Sandbox, a certain level of customization is expected, at least by me. I do honestly believe that if you (the developer) have such a strong narrative that you cannot fit in at least basic character customization (at least being able to choose gender and hair color or something) Sandbox is the wrong media for you. A linear form with crossroads (important choices) would fit your narrative better, I'm sure.

[Cespenar]

Eh. GTA, since the third game has never been fully about sandbox play. Actually they have better writing and storylines than most RPGs I played. To have that level of character-driven storylines you pretty much have to have static player characters.

And that's the gist of it, really. Elder Scrolls work, for example, because they aren't character-driven stories, just grand epics.

[factotum]

I do honestly believe that if you (the developer) have such a strong narrative that you cannot fit in at least basic character customization (at least being able to choose gender and hair color or something) Sandbox is the wrong media for you. A linear form with crossroads (important choices) would fit your narrative better, I'm sure.

Sorry to keep disagreeing, but in my opinion the greatest, most fun sandbox game ever created (Just Cause 2) has a fixed protagonist--heck, you can't even change his clothes! And I don't think that game would work at all as a linear format.

[warty goblin]

Sorry to keep disagreeing, but in my opinion the greatest, most fun sandbox game ever created (Just Cause 2) has a fixed protagonist--heck, you can't even change his clothes! And I don't think that game would work at all as a linear format.

Is there any reason you couldn't have character customization in Just Cause 2 though? I've never played 2, but I played the hell out of of the original, and there was nothing about it which demanded the player character be a specific person.

[factotum]

Possibly not, but Avilan's viewpoint seems to be that it isn't even worth having a sandbox game without a configurable protagonist--I disagree with that. If they choose to give you a configurable avatar, so much the better, but it doesn't make the game bad without it.

[Avilan the Grey]

Possibly not, but Avilan's viewpoint seems to be that it isn't even worth having a sandbox game without a configurable protagonist--I disagree with that. If they choose to give you a configurable avatar, so much the better, but it doesn't make the game bad without it.

"Not worth" is a little strong. But I definitely STRONGLY prefer games where you can build your own character.

[Calemyr]

It's worth noting that Saint's Row (the later ones, anyway) did an impressive job of allowing you customization and story. You got to control what the Boss looks like, sounds like, and does, but who the Boss is? That's the story's domain. The Boss is a fun loving psychopath who got pulled from an average life and thrived in a world of violence and dominance, going from collateral damage in a gunfight to being the nation's leading badass, while simultaneously rebranding crime and gang violence into a form of performance art. The Boss is a iconoclast that resents being defined, or being redefined for sake of "decency", and is (nearly*) unfailingly loyal to their crew and earns that loyalty back as well. We don't create Boss's soul, we just create its incarnation.

I mean, think about it. It doesn't matter if your Boss is a brutish Brit with a cigar and a bowler hat or a firebrand of a girl who clears the room with style and baseball bat or freakin' Nolan North with a Dubstep Cannon... The Boss is still the Boss. We get to play a very enjoyable character that is predefined in all the places it needs to be, while still giving us control on what doesn't need to be. Because of this, and because the Saint's Row series eventually concluded that games ought to be fun, I will always vote for SR over GTA.

* Leaving several of your friends to die in Saint's Row 3 in pursuit of personal revenge is an option. It's not canon, but it's an option.

EDIT: One note, the only problem I have with the series (besides humor that gets too juvenile for me sometimes) is the fact that I can only play one Boss: Laura Bailey's Female 1 voiceset. Laura Bailey just seems to have so much fun playing the Boss that I can't bring myself use any other voice set, not even Nolan North, who also clearly has a blast with the role.

[Avilan the Grey]

I stuck with her voice because of the sample quote "I need a pair of assless chaps". Any girl that likes that kind of fashion has my vote.
(that chaps are, per definition, assless is a different issue).
But yes, her voice acting is absolutely awesome. Right up there with the best I have ever experienced.

Speaking of psychopathy as performance art... The Boss channels the best parts of Joker and Bane into one person I think. In a good way. If I was Batman, the Boss would give me pause.

[Yana]

Laura Bailey's boss has been my go-to since the mission in 3 where you take the giant penthouse because of one simple line:

"Oh grenades... what problems can't you solve?"

Well that and I've been a fan of her work since Fullmetal Alchemist and more recently, Fire Emblem: Awakening.

[Avilan the Grey]

Laura Bailey's boss has been my go-to since the mission in 3 where you take the giant penthouse because of one simple line:

"Oh grenades... what problems can't you solve?"

Well that and I've been a fan of her work since Fullmetal Alchemist and more recently, Fire Emblem: Awakening.

She's just beyond awesome in SR3. Unfortunately it seems she mostly does voice stuff for things I have no interest in, like the above.

[Calemyr]

She's just beyond awesome in SR3. Unfortunately it seems she mostly does voice stuff for things I have no interest in, like the above.

I have three goddesses of VA: Claudia Black, Jennifer Hale, and Laura Bailey. I enjoy their work in pretty much anything they do.

[Yana]

I almost want to reinstall SR3 now just to hear her in action again.