Paladins can be fun too?

[FatherGerminus]

Ok so i have a campaign im going to be in coming up and my friend running it absolutely HATES paladins. He believes they are nothing but stuffy uptight... Well you get the picture. I tried pointing out how some of the paladins portrayed in the oots comic were not this way and he still wont budge on that belief. So ive been tasked by my group to not only play a paladin but to play a fun paladin. So my question for the playground is can a paladin be fun? What are some quirks that could be used in RP that help paladins? Also before anyone asks im trying to avoid becoming a fallen paladin.

[sammyp03]

I think the whole Goody two shoes paladin dynamic really takes the class down a notch in terms of Roleplaying. A paladin is supposed to be a called warrior of their diety, not some superman wannabe. My DM and in my own Campaign, paladins don't have to be Lawful good, He only needs to uphold his or her diety's ideals. But that all depends on what your DM allows.

[Venger]

is it the class, or just the archetype of "holy warrior" that you're trying to play and disprove your DM's feelings on? if it's the former, then the handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.ca/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html) is always a good place to start, or you could play an A-game paladin (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376)

if it's the latter, then it's probably a good idea to play something else, because paladin is a terrible class. tome of battle's crusader is also a "holy warrior" type, plus it doesn't have pally's bizarre and idiosyncratic code of conduct and your DM can't say "lol u fall" and take away all of your superpowers on a whim.

as far as RP goes, there's no optimization guide for that. if your goal is that paladins aren't all murderous psychopaths or uptight nannies, just focus on being a genuinely good person, whatever that means to your guy, rather than get too hung up on rules and regulations, ask your DM not to go out of his way to give you impossible moral arithmetic problems to make you fall (if you choose to use the paladin class) and you'll be in the right neighborhood.

[Troacctid]

as far as RP goes, there's no optimization guide for that.

Well, there is a ton of material in the books about how to do it. Player's Handbook II, for instance, has a whole section on pages 52-53 with suggestions on roleplaying a Paladin, and almost the entirety of chapter 5 is a guide to fleshing out your character's personality.

[Inevitability]

The more I hear about this sort of problems, the more I feel like Eberron (and later 4th edition too) got it right: Paladins and Clerics can't fall, but they do get trouble with other members of their faith if they don't follow it.

In my opinion, having to play a class that can literally lose all its abilities at every possible moment makes it far less fun, leading to players playing stern, gruff, borderline-LN crusaders in fear of otherwise losing their powers.

[Unbodied]

The more I hear about this sort of problems, the more I feel like Eberron (and later 4th edition too) got it right: Paladins and Clerics can't fall, but they do get trouble with other members of their faith if they don't follow it.

In my opinion, having to play a class that can literally lose all its abilities at every possible moment makes it far less fun, leading to players playing stern, gruff, borderline-LN crusaders in fear of otherwise losing their powers.
I quit playing my goofy and somewhat dumb Paladin because the other players were always getting on my case about how this action or those words were threading to far outside my alignment. And I couldn't lie! What's the point of having a really high charisma score if one of the most important charisma based skills is barred to you? Sure I later found out that you can lie if you can justify it but I wasn't experienced enough with the rules or roleplaying to figure that out back then, not sure if I could pull it off now either. And there are a ton of gods out there with radically different values, surely they can't all insist on their followers being honest to a fault? Would Cayden Cailean really care if his paladins told a couple of white lies or tricked people to get out of trouble?:smallmad:

[Sliver]

The problem is that if your DM thinks paladins should be played in a certain way, that's about the only way you could play one of them, without falling anyway. It's problematic if your DM is really stuck in his mindset of a paladin can't be fun. If you are a fun paladin, maybe you are doing it wrong, and should fall?

A paladin can be fun, but it depends a lot on how much leeway you get from your DM, and how much the DM doesn't hate you.

[DarkOne-Rob]

I am currently playing a PF Paladin of Pharasma (the True Neutral deity of Death) in a Carrion Crown campaign. The DM was willing to bend the rules since Pharasma is so hostile to undead and the Paladin class (in PF) has enough options to be effective there.

This would not be possible if we hadn't worked out exactly what my Paladin's rules were ahead of time. I wrote down a set of Pharasmin Paladin Oaths. We clarified that chaotic behavior, while frowned upon, would not cause him to fall. The rest of the party was clearly not evil and agreed ahead of time to avoid going down a path that would risk my PC having to disassociate with any of them. And finally, I decided that I wanted to try and play a PC who was always, always looking to be an example of goodness. He revels in the joys of life while being absolutely brutal towards undead.

It has been a blast.
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All that said, you will note the amount of pre-game negotiations and work put into making this happen. Unless your DM is of the mindset that falling is only an option when the player supports the decision (an uncommon idea but one that entirely avoids the many ranting threads on this topic) you are risking everything about your PC on the opinions of someone who you described as hostile to Paladins in general.

In your case, I wouldn't do it - you are being set up for failure. However, if you are going to try, I would encourage you to do something like I described above. Choose a deity as your patron who can be "fun" for you. Write up tenants for your Paladin to follow that fits that deity's faith. Coordinate with the other players that you won't be put into a bad spot due to associating with [Evil] PCs. Get a clear idea what behaviors from which you must refrain to avoid falling. Only after all this are you likely to enjoy this experience.
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Perhaps we can help make that happen. In what setting will the game take place? Do you have a patron deity in mind? Give us some ideas and we might be able to help you brainstorm and come up with some guidelines to help you out...

[falloutimperial]

There are plenty of great ways to play a paladin, but if you're specifically trying to dispel the stereotype there are a couple of things you can do to go a long way.

1. There's no rule that says that paladins don't like to party. Earthly pleasures? Great.
2. One alternative to chiding a character every time they do something wrong is to lead by example. Say something, but only stop it if it is egregious. People have to want to be helped, and your virtue should be example enough.

[Killer Angel]

Also before anyone asks im trying to avoid becoming a fallen paladin.

Only LG paladin, or also the variant class in SRD?
Because a bard paladin (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1125781) of freedom, is one of the most awesome and fun concept ever.

[Lerondiel]

There's two schools of thought:

- A paladin is there as the epitome of all that's good and lawful, follows every rule imaginable and to the extreme

- The other is a reminder that the paladin's divine abilities are exactly that - divine. The paladin only loses them if he/she falls short of the deity's standards. Different deities expect different conduct from their paladins. Eg. a war god really doesnt care how much non-destructive drinking and wenching the paladin does off the battlefield, but his expected courage, skill and leadership in combat will be far stricter than other deities.

If the DM is open to that 2nd viewpoint, paladins can vary widely.

[Segev]

My advice: first, build a character. Come up with this person's personality. Likes, dislikes, hobbies. What does your character's family do for a living? How did this impact your character growing up? What talents and skills did your character have to practice just coming up in life?

Once you have a character, a person who could hang out with the party and do fun things with friends, then do a double-check: is your character a Good and Honorable person? If not, examine why not, and tweak your character's background until they are. Don't hammer home any traits that are inherently "boring" or "stiff." Don't create your character to view things as a list of things that cannot be, should not be done. Create your character with a goal. It could be a generic "help people," or it could be more specific, but it should be noble and heroic.

Then play your character as a hero. Keep your given word, stand up for what's right, be kind to others. But don't make these your salient, in-your-face traits. Ideally, your fellow PCs should not think "noble holy warrior who follows all the rules" as the primary character traits. They should think of you much the way they think of any other PC, in terms of your personality and foibles, your quirks and interests, first. It should only be in retrospect that they realize that you've always stood for the right and good and noble. That you don't take bribes, that you don't back down in the face of evil.

In short: build an interesting Fighter concept, then make it LG, THEN make it a paladin. Paladins can have flaws. They just can't commit overtly evil acts, and they cannot be Chaotic often enough to cause them to shift alignments. That's not nearly so restrictive as you might think.

[Red Fel]

Allow me to offer you three perspectives on the Paladin.

First: The warrior on the edge. There's a quote from Doctor Who: "Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many." That's you. You're the warrior who dances with falling constantly. For more, read the classic Powder Keg of Justice (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Powder_Keg_of_Justice) story. This is a great style for the Badass Paladin.

Second: The truly decent person. He's not pushy, he's not stuffy, he's just kind. Warm, supportive, and generally likeable, who really shines in a pinch. See the A Noble Death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8359242&postcount=1) story for the ideal. This is an amazing style for the Paladin who is loved by his party.

Third: The scarred veteran. Unlike the Powder Keg Paladin, this guy isn't constantly on the edge. He's just tired. He's a White Knight who's turning Grey. He's seen a lot, put up with a lot, done a lot. This allows you to play up a level of tolerance; in some ways he shows signs of The Dude from The Big Lebowski, and in others he's a Clint Eastwood character. This means you can shrug off a lot of the minor, everyday horrors you see, then sigh, get up, and kick some serious butt. The biggest plus is it means your Paladin may end up the most mellow, accepting person in the party.

I will echo what others have said, however. If your DM doesn't believe you're being "Paladin-y" enough, he may cause you to fall despite your best efforts. Be aware that this may happen.

[OldTrees1]

Ok so i have a campaign im going to be in coming up and my friend running it absolutely HATES paladins. He believes they are nothing but stuffy uptight... Well you get the picture. I tried pointing out how some of the paladins portrayed in the oots comic were not this way and he still wont budge on that belief. So ive been tasked by my group to not only play a paladin but to play a fun paladin. So my question for the playground is can a paladin be fun? What are some quirks that could be used in RP that help paladins? Also before anyone asks im trying to avoid becoming a fallen paladin.
Yes a paladin can be fun. Part of that fun is playing someone that is (morally) better than oneself.

Paladins are known for having ideals and either succeeding or partially succeeding at holding to them. When those ideals clash with the party's interests... This is where the "stuffy uptight ..." idea comes from.

So for your task, you would want to pick ideals such that the party enjoys when it is inconvenienced by your ideals.

[T.G. Oskar]

There's no rule that says that paladins don't like to party. Earthly pleasures? Great.

Reminds me of Dupre, the iconic Paladin of the Ultima series. His particular story (how he was forced to train Goblins in combat, despite being against his beliefs, only because of Honor, and how he manages to deal with the situation while keeping it) might not fit with the quote, but it fits with the OP's question. Why I mention him? Well, Dupre was known for being an alcoholic; he really enjoys the ale, but when Honor is at stake, a quest is to be done, or the Avatar says "hey, Britannia is in problems; come and help me out", he's there. Probably one of the most badass Paladins around.

The idea, though, is that a Paladin is not just charismatic, but wise. Playing a stuffy stick-in-the-mud is fair for a 8-9 Wis character, but not for a 14 Wis character. A 14 Wis character knows of moderation, of how to reprimand without making others feel bad (a notion of empathy, which apparently is more of a Wisdom thing than a Charisma thing...), of saying the right words, and particularly, of being a wise leader. Charisma is the stat that defines leadership; Wisdom is the stat that defines how good you're meant to be. Go figure why the wisest men are often fans of ale and stronger liquors; most likely, they enjoy it in moderation, know their limits, a combination of both, or some other inexplicable reason.

One of the posters hit it on the spot, tho: your DM may be prejudiced against Paladins, and may cause you to fall because of how it behaves. Ideally, your best bet is to handle it with the players; a Paladin does not need to be a source of OOC conflict, but if the party enjoys the IC conflict and how to resolve it without endangering the party mechanic, forcing the Paladin to fall because it doesn't fit with the DM's (which will be effectively your deity's) vision of what a Paladin should be will cause conflict between all the players. Now, if other players also happen to find Paladins "stuffy", then it's not a wise course of action.

Do note, though, that codes of conduct are not limited to Paladins: Clerics, Druids and Healers also have them, but they're not so common; a Cleric can "fall" because it disobeys its deity, or a Druid can "fall" because its actions make it stop revering nature. As well, any character can adopt a non-binding code of conduct, which can be as strict (if not more!) than that of the Paladin; the key word is "non-binding". A Crusader can have the feel of a "holy warrior" AND a code of ethics related to its deity, but since it's a non-binding code, the Crusader won't lose its powers. It can be just as strict as that of a Paladin, and as conflicting, but since the Crusader doesn't lose its powers by violating the code...well, you can figure out why your DM is so stuffy around the idea. "Powder Keg of Justice" is an awesome way to explain how the Paladin isn't following the code out of fear, but as a restraint; not exactly a relieving aspect (you are still following a code), but it's a very different interpretation that doesn't make you seem like a stick in the mud, but rather as the Fettered. A Powder Keg, in the end, is a Blackguard waiting to happen, only held because the Paladin actually prefers to be good; if it falls, it'll seek the first fiend that allows it to sponsor, become a Blackguard, then gut every single fiend (from the lowest to the Archdukes and Demon Princes) because it's no longer fettered. But, as you mentioned, you're not intending to fall.

In conclusion: yes, there are ways to play fun Paladins without having to break the code AND break the party dynamic, but they're reliant on everybody in the table agreeing to them...much like when you're intentionally bringing a character that will cause conflict for one reason or another. It can be fun, but it can also be troubling; the key is how to make it incline towards "fun".

[yellowrocket]

The disdain for paladins drives me up the wall. As a dm they are a ready made story. The have motivations, background, and plot hooks built in before you start the game.

As a player I like then for many fluff reasons. That and at low levels they lay hands is handy if you're playing solo

[Pluto!]

I hear about forced no-win Paladin scenarios just about every time the class gets brought up, but I think I've seen 4 Paladins fall in a decade of D&D - and only one where the player wasn't onboard (and that was only temporary).

The code doesn't prevent being a reasonable person, and D&D alignments are inconsistent enough that I'm surprised anyone takes consistent adherence to them all that seriously.

As to the class mechanically, I really enjoy building Paladins - more than basically any other class. They have by far the widest selection of ACFs that do interesting things, and they have so many ways of putting a high ability score to work. Admittedly, I do prefer tweaking the class to be mechanically more like the Psychic Warrior, but even without taking those steps, the class has enough splatbook support sprinkled throughout the 3.5 library to bypass many of melee's typical downfalls and to reliably be a playable warrior-type character.

[Segev]

Unless you have a deliberately uncooperative party, the Paladin need never be a "stick in the mud authoritarian." He can just be the moral compass for the group. The guy who they know holds high standards, and who will strive to keep them from stepping over the line. With the exception of the fact that they're not allowed to associate with Evil people, they could get along equally well with CG and LE types, as long as all involved are committed to making the party work.

It's not that the party must be enslaved to the Paladin's paradigm; it's just that, as the Paladin would perhaps permit that people should not be held to unconscionable contracts and would happily turn a blind eye as the CN or CG ranger helped somebody escape an LN or LE contract that was horrifically unfair. He might even join in (given that, as long as he doesn't make a habit of it, he won't slip from Lawful to Neutral for one or two instances of Chaotic behavior). Likewise, however, the CN or CG ranger should accept that sometimes that party has to keep its promises even when they're detrimental because it's the honorable thing to do, and the Paladin is going to live up to honor. A Paladin in an overall NG with neutral tendencies party can work just fine, as long as there's give and take on all sides. The big thing about the Paladin's presence is that he draws a bright line against all out-and-out Evil actions. In truth, most Good-aligned PCs should.

[Jay R]

If you player a character of class X so he can't work with the party, he will be no fun, for any value of X.

If you play a character of class X as a team player, he will be fun, for any value of X.

If the rest of party party plays in ways that mess up a character of class X, he will be no fun, for any value of X.

If the rest of party party are team players with a character of class X, he will be fun, for any value of X.

The problem is not the paladin class. The problem is people who want to play a paladin in ways that don't fit in with the party, and with parties who want to play in ways that don't fit traveling with a paladin.

Only one of these is in your control. Before you agree to play a paladin, you need the other players to agree that the party will be heroes, not murderous outlaws. Because you can't get along with the party if the party will not get along with the paladin.

[Mystral]

Ok so i have a campaign im going to be in coming up and my friend running it absolutely HATES paladins. He believes they are nothing but stuffy uptight... Well you get the picture. I tried pointing out how some of the paladins portrayed in the oots comic were not this way and he still wont budge on that belief. So ive been tasked by my group to not only play a paladin but to play a fun paladin. So my question for the playground is can a paladin be fun? What are some quirks that could be used in RP that help paladins? Also before anyone asks im trying to avoid becoming a fallen paladin.

I would strongly advise playing a paladin in a game with a DM that hates paladins. He will either make you fall or find other ways to prevent your fun.

[ShaneMRoth]

I would strongly advise playing a paladin in a game with a DM that hates paladins. He will either make you fall or find other ways to prevent your fun.

I strongly concur. If a DM has a bias against a specific class, that bias is going to affect game play.

Long ago (and I mean back before 2nd Edition went to print) I played an Illusionist in a game run by a DM who had no time for Illusionists.

My illusionist cast exactly one Phantasmal Force (the precursor to the Image spells) that wasn't disbelieved.

One.

Thinking back, I should have taken the hint (he didn't conceal his contempt for Illusionists). But no, I had an agenda. To show the DM just how "fun" an illusionist could be.

The way the DM adjudicated illusions, my character couldn't have earned a living as a birthday party clown.

At the very least, prepare a back up non-paladin character just in case you need to write the Paladin out of the Cast.

[Jay R]

I would strongly advise playing a paladin in a game with a DM that hates paladins. He will either make you fall or find other ways to prevent your fun.

This is a good point. Your cool moves work if and only if they are the kind of moves that the DM also thinks are cool.


There is a legal maxim: "Any lawyer knows the law. A good lawyer knows the exceptions. A great lawyer knows the judge."

Similarly, any player knows the core books. A good player knows the expansions. A great player knows the DM.

[KoDT69]

I hear about forced no-win Paladin scenarios just about every time the class gets brought up, but I think I've seen 4 Paladins fall in a decade of D&D - and only one where the player wasn't onboard (and that was only temporary).

I have played for nearly 22 years and have never seen a single Paladin fall. Since the days of AD&D I have always taken the Paladin to be held to his deity's code, not some generic LG crap. As written, a Paladin worshiping a chaotic evil ravenous murderhobo is still supposed to be LG. Has that been mentioned in the Mordenkainen's Dysfunction thread yet? Anyway, the group needs to decide if having a Paladin will be a thing they want and how he will be played. The DM sabotaging you to fall is a childish thing to do, and ignorant on multiple levels.

In my opinion, the Paladin is a great class for RP if the campaign allows, and can be a manageable class mechanically. Despite it's lower power rating, I and many of my players have ran them successfully and enjoyed it.

[Geddy2112]

1. There's no rule that says that paladins don't like to party. Earthly pleasures? Great.


Only LG paladin, or also the variant class in SRD?
Because a bard paladin (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1125781) of freedom, is one of the most awesome and fun concept ever.
I have done this and it is a blast. Between feeding the poor and praying, she enjoyed singing in cocktail lounges, playing baseball, and smoking weed with the party druid. A paragon of LG is still a person. Leave it to clerics to be 24/7 zealots, paladins can and should be fun.


There's two schools of thought:
The other is a reminder that the paladin's divine abilities are exactly that - divine. The paladin only loses them if he/she falls short of the deity's standards. Different deities expect different conduct from their paladins. Eg. a war god really doesnt care how much non-destructive drinking and wenching the paladin does off the battlefield, but his expected courage, skill and leadership in combat will be far stricter than other deities.
The deity you worship is of critical importance. In pathfinder, I think Sarenrae is probably the best deity for Paladins. She is kind, warm, gentle, and forgiving. However, she is no *****, and if some evil demon is trying to gain power, or one of your party members decides to be a murderhobo, she has no problem putting evil to the sword and ending them in a swath of divine flame.


Allow me to offer you three perspectives on the Paladin.
First: The warrior on the edge. There's a quote from Doctor Who: "Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many." That's you. You're the warrior who dances with falling constantly. For more, read the classic Powder Keg of Justice (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Powder_Keg_of_Justice) story. This is a great style for the Badass Paladin.

Powder keg is best paladin. +1


Unless you have a deliberately uncooperative party, the Paladin need never be a "stick in the mud authoritarian." He can just be the moral compass for the group. The guy who they know holds high standards, and who will strive to keep them from stepping over the line. With the exception of the fact that they're not allowed to associate with Evil people, they could get along equally well with CG and LE types, as long as all involved are committed to making the party work.

It's not that the party must be enslaved to the Paladin's paradigm; it's just that, as the Paladin would perhaps permit that people should not be held to unconscionable contracts and would happily turn a blind eye as the CN or CG ranger helped somebody escape an LN or LE contract that was horrifically unfair. He might even join in (given that, as long as he doesn't make a habit of it, he won't slip from Lawful to Neutral for one or two instances of Chaotic behavior). Likewise, however, the CN or CG ranger should accept that sometimes that party has to keep its promises even when they're detrimental because it's the honorable thing to do, and the Paladin is going to live up to honor. A Paladin in an overall NG with neutral tendencies party can work just fine, as long as there's give and take on all sides. The big thing about the Paladin's presence is that he draws a bright line against all out-and-out Evil actions. In truth, most Good-aligned PCs should.
I totally agree, but bolded for emphasis. I have never played a paladin once who was not grieved, challenged and outright insulted for being LG at every instance. If I was lucky, the PC's simply stole in front of me or told me to F off. Most of the time, they engaged freely in acts of terrorism or genocide in front of me, then told me it was my fault for even raising objections to their actions. Even as they literally shot cowering humanoids in the back of the head or axed them to death as they begged for their lives, all the while cackling in glee.

If this is your group(or DM) then paladins lawful goodgood has no place at the table. Regardless of class.

[Andezzar]

There are plenty of great ways to play a paladin, but if you're specifically trying to dispel the stereotype there are a couple of things you can do to go a long way.

1. There's no rule that says that paladins don't like to party. Earthly pleasures? Great.
2. One alternative to chiding a character every time they do something wrong is to lead by example. Say something, but only stop it if it is egregious. People have to want to be helped, and your virtue should be example enough.This is a good start. For further inspiration on good portrayals of paladins I recommend the Dresden Files. The three knights of the Cross, are IMHO what the paladin archetype was intended to be. All are genuinely good people, but all are different. They also don't go about berating everyone for every small failing, but don't think they would let evil flourish even if it mean killing a friend.

[JW86]

Have him liberally use the Shakespearean Insult List

http://www.tastefullyoffensive.com/2011/10/shakespeare-insult-kit.html?

And combine with a heroic, righteous joyful sense of GOOD.

[LoyalPaladin]

Okay, I've play a lot of paladins. No surprise there. But they can have super diverse personalities, I think Red Fel pretty much hit the nail on the head with his post.

Paladins are champions of good, not the law. It is explicitly stated that they fall for evil acts, not chaotic acts. I do strongly urge you to choose your deity wisely, if you are going the holy warrior route. Some deities favor the law over people, while some could care less about the law and value life over all.

I don't have a set way I like to roleplay my paladins, but currently I have a paladin that is a very strong champion of good and I guess I would place him somewhere between the "white knight" archetype and Thor. He is a little grand and is great with people, but when evil comes around he gets serious.

I read a great series (http://ddalglish.com/wp/books/the-paladins/) a while back about two very different paladins, I've linked it if you're interested. It really shows how different paladins can be.

[Flickerdart]

The thing that makes paladins less fun than many other classes for me is that they usually tend to get defined by falling. The reason why should be obvious - any class can be as Good as the paladin, but they don't lose anything if they aren't. The paladin isn't rewarded for being more Good than his party members, he's punished if he isn't.

This is why you need a cooperative DM to have a good paladin experience. A bad DM only sees "oh hey, he can fall." A good DM should see the big picture - this is not a freelancer with a contract, but a dedicated (perhaps the most dedicated) follower of a god or cause. Instead of glancing the paladin's way every once in a while to wave the falling stick at him, a god should actively follow the paladin's trials and provide him with necessary support when he makes the right choices. If not done explicitly, this should be done implicitly, by giving the paladin actually useful class features. One of the best ways to do this without actually changing the rules is to employ the alternate mount rules from the DMG, and give the paladin a powerful, intelligent emissary of his deity as a companion (instead of just a random horse). That way you get both a benefit for being on Team Good, and a figurative angel on your shoulder that can guide you.

[Red Fel]

To build on what Flickerdart said, even people who see Paladins as merely pre-fall characters are missing the potential. Why? Because when they see the capacity to fall, they see falling as an isolated, singular event in a vacuum. It happens and the PC ends.

That's boring.

Even if you're going down the route of "Paladins are defined by falling," that path is a journey. And it is an awesome journey. Powder Keg is an excellent illustration of this. Another illustration is the idea of the holy champion whose hopes and ideals crumble, one after another, as his naive innocence gives way to bitter rage at a world too filthy to allow his dreams to survive.

Falling is, and should be, a long, agonizing process, full of tragedy and character development. It is, and should be, a powerful story arc, which causes the other players to watch the evolution of this character with elements of sadness, sympathy, and perhaps even fear. If you have to have falling in your game, at least let it be that.

Let it be glorious.

[Segev]

I have never played a paladin once who was not grieved, challenged and outright insulted for being LG at every instance. If I was lucky, the PC's simply stole in front of me or told me to F off. Most of the time, they engaged freely in acts of terrorism or genocide in front of me, then told me it was my fault for even raising objections to their actions. Even as they literally shot cowering humanoids in the back of the head or axed them to death as they begged for their lives, all the while cackling in glee.

Did they behave this way regardless of whether a paladin was in the party, or did they take a swan dive into Evil specifically to spite a paladin being present?

[Geddy2112]

Did they behave this way regardless of whether a paladin was in the party, or did they take a swan dive into Evil specifically to spite a paladin being present?

The latter. While certainly not paragons of virtue, I have seen many players decide to bring in new characters to parties with established paladins with the expressed point of being murderhobos. It would be one thing to bring a paladin into an evil party, but I find that players(and DM's) tend to bring evil characters into otherwise good parties to challenge them.

And if you find that fun, paladins can be very fun in that regard. I personally do not enjoy being on either side of that. In a game group where this is not an issue, being a paladin or any good aligned character is not really an issue.

[Segev]

See, that's just being a jerk, OOC, and the DM and the rest of the party should tell such players to stop it. They are behaving no better than the jerk who brings a Paladin in to a party of evil characters and expects the other PCs to conform to his whims.

[Jay R]

The latter. While certainly not paragons of virtue, I have seen many players decide to bring in new characters to parties with established paladins with the expressed point of being murderhobos. It would be one thing to bring a paladin into an evil party, but I find that players(and DM's) tend to bring evil characters into otherwise good parties to challenge them.

I will not play with such people.

People who go out of their way to mess up somebody else's character are trying to ruin other people's fun.

If the other players want to prevent my fun, they will succeed. It's not that hard to do. The game I want to play is a game of a party of people working together to have fun together.

The only solution is to refuse to play with them.