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Extra Anchovies
2015-07-26, 03:36 AM
1. Where would the Unchained Summoner fall, power-wise, if they didn't have an Eidolon, Life Link, or any of the class features they get at even levels? This would leave them with spellcasting and their Summon Monster spell-like ability.

2. Where would the Unchained Summoner fall, power-wise, if they didn't have their Summon Monster spell-like ability? This would leave them with spellcasting, an Eidolon, Life Link, all of the class features they get at even levels.

And one more, for the curiosity's sake:

3. Where would the Unchained Summoner fall, power-wise, if they didn't have an Eidolon, its supporting class features, or the Summon Monster spell-like ability? This leaves them with only their spellcasting.

My guesses are:
1. Mid-high T3. Summon Monster provides a good deal of power in combat (action economy, battlefield control, even significant damage with the right summons) and out of combat (SLAs, movement modes, senses), and spellcasting can assist with both (a few buff spells for the summons and a few utility spells for when a summon won't do the trick).
2. Mid-low T3. They'd be able to contribute lots of damage through Eidolon + buff spells, and their casting gives them some utility. Alternately, they could focus on buff spells for other party members and have a utility Eidolon, but I'm not sure if skillmonkey Eidolons still work with Unchained.
3. Mid-high T4. Adequate buffer in-combat with a bit of noncombat utility, or a fair amount of noncombat utility while being nearly useless in a fight. Depends on how they allocate spells known.

Psyren
2015-07-26, 04:24 PM
I would say:

Both Eidolon and SLAs = High T3
Summon SLA only = Mid T3
Eidolon only = Mid T3
Neither, spells only = T4

I don't know that the Eidolon is less useful than the summons or vice-versa, they're both toolboxes with a lot of moving parts. I guess you could say the Summon SLA is a bit stronger than the Eidolon in a vacuum, but the summons also have several key weaknesses that the Eidolon doesn't, so I tend to rank them as being on par with one another. Plus the Eidolon can be almost as much of a toolbox if you make judicious use of things like Evolution Surge.

Frosty
2015-07-26, 06:29 PM
What tier is the regular summoner? Is the difference mostly due to the improved spell list?

Psyren
2015-07-26, 06:42 PM
What tier is the regular summoner? Is the difference mostly due to the improved spell list?

Regular is T2, because they basically get sorcerer casting after all the discounted spells. For instance, they get haste before wizards do, black tentacles/greater invisiibility before sorcerers do, and they get several items on the usual rogues' gallery (planar binding, simulacrum) either on schedule or very close to it as well.

For the Unchained Summoner, the levels were adjusted for many of these spells to be delayed again relative to the 9th-level casters, and some (like simulacrum and maze) were excised from their list entirely.

Frosty
2015-07-26, 08:34 PM
What if the summoner doesn't use any of the planar binding or simulacrum spells? Still t2?

grarrrg
2015-07-26, 08:47 PM
What if the summoner doesn't use any of the planar binding or simulacrum spells? Still t2?

Eh, trying to exactly peg the Summoner has always been debated.

"old" Summoner was always towards the Bottom of T2/Very-High T3 anyways.
Usually given benefit of the doubt and put in T2 anyway due to access to (effectively) 7th-to-9th level spells.
Some people still argue "old" Summoner is still only T3.

"new" Summoner is much closer to the High-3 camp.

Psyren
2015-07-27, 05:39 AM
What if the summoner doesn't use any of the planar binding or simulacrum spells? Still t2?

T2 means "can break the game in a limited number of ways." Obviously if you remove those ways, they drop out of T2 :smalltongue:

Frosty
2015-07-27, 12:14 PM
T2 means "can break the game in a limited number of ways." Obviously if you remove those ways, they drop out of T2 :smalltongue:
Good. Then I can continue to play my regular summer without guilt. The only complaint from one other players is how good my Angel Summoner's (my eidolon is an angel) pet is at tanking compares to his martial character.