Challenge for the Playground - TO

[lunasmeow]

1. Gestalt Campaign

2. Max of 40 levels so you have 80 class levels to play with, but bonus points for those who don't use them all (which should be easy for this board honestly...)

3. Epic levels work like normal levels instead of like the ELH describes.

4. 2 Flaws allowed.

5. Templates allowed, but no half-half-half-half type. If there is a half template, there is only one or two (half dragon, half celestial for example). You can stack other templates that aren't "half" something on top of the single or double half template however.

6. If you do choose two "half" templates, one of the two halves must be the base creature.

7. All normally playable races allowed. Even Phaerimm. Except Sarrukh and Pun-Pun.

8. No wishes. Period. Other than the stated uses in the spell's description, like adding +5 to every stat. Nothing beyond the norm.

9. Sorcerers cast from Wisdom, not Charisma. Unless they use Lost Tradition to alter that.

10. 22 Point buy.

11. 1 feat every three levels, +1 to any two stats every four levels (but not the same stat twice!!!) and +1 to all stats every twelve levels, in place of the normal +1 to any two.

Need a full party so there are plenty of types to pick from!- Wizard/Sorcerer type, Fighter/Monk type, Ranger type, Rogue type, Cleric type, Paladin type.

These are meant to be boss characters, no party members, so they need to come with a guide on how to kill them. PM'd, not posted, and only after the build is truly complete.

Need both a good and an evil party.

All feats from any licensed books for 3.0 and 3.5 (as long as the 3.0 ones haven't been updated!!!) including Dragon Magazine shenanigans and third party books. However, any feats/races/templates from realm specific places (Sigil, Eberron, etc) have to have approval as this takes place in Faerun.

Finally, for fun, the chosen evil characters and the chosen good characters will have a simulated battle here on the playground between the creators.

[thethird]

What's the point of this?

If this is TO what stops Pun Pun? Also since sarrukh are kosher being a playable race from faerun, who even needs Pun Pun?

[lunasmeow]

What's the point of this?

If this is TO what stops Pun Pun? Also since sarrukh are kosher being a playable race from faerun, who even needs Pun Pun?

Have a player who thinks he can trump anything the playground can make.
Pun-Pun is disallowed by DM fiat.
Forgot about Sarrukh... yeah, none of them.

[thethird]

Is Epic Spellcasting in play? Because nothing stops epic spellcasting.

[noob]

Planar Shepperd from the far realms
He can create a bubble where he have an infinite time in no time relatively to the exterior and there is not the restrictions of time stop
"A minute in the Far Realm equals no
time on the Material Plane"
So now he have an infinite time for blasting his opponents.
Also he is a T1 caster and so he might have a ton of awesome spells
He is also a mystic theurge(or wizard gish) and he have a 24 hour lasting Consumptive field(or even the feat giving a permanent emanation) and have killed 50000 chickens with it granting him 50000d8 temporary hp and 100000 bonus untyped strength and a boost of half his caster level making him unkillable with damage spells and he also have a ring of immunity to death effects and an armor of immunity to transmutation(the high quality one who make you immune to absolutely any effect changing your form including disintegration).
And there is no infinite wish shenanigans.

[Brova]

My thoughts.


1. Gestalt Campaign

2. Max of 40 levels so you have 80 class levels to play with, but bonus points for those who don't use them all (which should be easy for this board honestly...)

Sure, seems kind of excessive but whatever. What's the situation on PrCs? The gestalt rules explicitly ban taking PrCs on both sides at the same time and encourage you to ban dual progression PrCs. I think the first part of that is dumb, because it means that every gestalt character is half Druid, Artificer, Rogue or Factotum.


3. Epic levels work like normal levels instead of like the ELH describes.

So does epic spellcasting exist? What about epic feats, PrCs and magic items. Further, what happens if you taking 21 levels in, say, Rogue?


4. 2 Flaws allowed.

Sure.


5. Templates allowed, but no half-half-half-half type. If there is a half template, there is only one or two (half dragon, half celestial for example). You can stack other templates that aren't "half" something on top of the single or double half template however.

6. If you do choose two "half" templates, one of the two halves must be the base creature.

7. All normally playable races allowed. Even Phaerimm. Except Sarrukh and Pun-Pun.

Does LA buy off happen? If so, how does that work?


8. No wishes. Period. Other than the stated uses in the spell's description, like adding +5 to every stat. Nothing beyond the norm.

The stated description of wish includes "create a magic item" with no limits. At best that gives every character unlimited wishes.


9. Sorcerers cast from Wisdom, not Charisma. Unless they use Lost Tradition to alter that.

I mean, that's fine I guess but is there a reason for that change and not other ones? Sorcerers could get their casting bumped down a level (so they get 2nd level spells at 3rd) and get an extra slot at each spell level for "downtime" or "utility" spells.


10. 22 Point buy.

11. 1 feat every three levels, +1 to any two stats every four levels (but not the same stat twice!!!) and +1 to all stats every twelve levels, in place of the normal +1 to any two.

Sure, whatever. The stats changes seem kind of arbitrary, especially with the lower point buy. A point of stats is about a point and a half or two points of point buy, so you're looking at giving people (by level 40) an extra 18ish points. Why not just do that for point buy initially?

[Extra Anchovies]

If you want us to create the boss characters for your epic-level campaign, why don't you come out and say it instead of pretending that this is a "challenge"? There's no challenge here for us to beat. This is just you telling us to build characters for you.

[daremetoidareyo]

VOP half elf ninja 20/soulknife 10/soulbow 10
monk 20/factotum 20

That should be a good place to start. No-one, not a single person outside of GITTP could possibly beat this build. ;)

[Jormengand]

Have a player who thinks he can trump anything the playground can make.

We'll see.

Let's start by being a wizard 40/cleric 40. That sounds like a plan. Now, the question here is, how high can we get our spellcraft?

Well, just off the top of my head:

+11 base INT and another +6 from items,
+43 skill ranks
+43 item familiar
+3 skill focus
+2 illumian power sigils
+2 masterwork tool
+20 guidance of the avatar
+5 lesser utterance of the evolving mind (universal aptitude)

+129 will do for now. Now, a quickened spell that uses the Destroy seed is DC 57, meaning we can safely add another 36d6 damage to it. A standard action spell that uses the Destroy seed is only DC 49, so we can add 40d6 damage instead. Add on the extra 20d6 just for existing each time, and we have a total of 116d6 untyped damage to whoever it is. Well, if we take 20d6 backlash each time ourself, we can up that to 136d6, but that's not going to cut it.

Let's use Slay instead. Now, we could use the silly instakill but you get a save to take a piddly amount of damage variant, or we could use the awesome variant. Let's take the base negative-level inflicting swift-action version, DC 53. Then, we make it deal another 19d4 negative levels (FOR half) for a total of 21d4. The standard action version deals 19d4 (FOR half), meaning that even if that creature's making both their fortitude saves, they're probably dead in a round. You could cast some Forsee spell to find out if they have some kind of immunity and Dispel to get rid of it.

And that's just me faffing around with the epic spells for a few minutes.

[Brova]

Let's use Slay instead. Now, we could use the silly instakill but you get a save to take a piddly amount of damage variant, or we could use the awesome variant. Let's take the base negative-level inflicting swift-action version, DC 53. Then, we make it deal another 19d4 negative levels (FOR half) for a total of 21d4. The standard action version deals 19d4 (FOR half), meaning that even if that creature's making both their fortitude saves, they're probably dead in a round. You could cast some Forsee spell to find out if they have some kind of immunity and Dispel to get rid of it.

But that costs a big pile of gold and XP. You see, the epic spell rules are stupid broken and encourage you to cheese the DC down to zero. Actually doing anything offensive with that is kind of rough, but you can bootstrap your casting stats up to stupidly large numbers very quickly (or just cascade Solars).

Also, if you actually want to cast some giant epic spell without mitigation, you don't want to get a big bonus from items or whatever. Instead you're going to cast sadism, then drop that giant AoE damage spell from BOVD on a population center. That should net a bonus on the order of thousands at the low end.

But honestly using the rules for epic spells is kind of a waste. You can get plenty of stupidly huge amounts of power with significantly lower level characters. A guy with improved familar (mirror mephit) who is level 14 can create an infinite army of mini-mes to do his bidding. planar binding summons efreet, who can wish for additional castings of planar binding. shapechange makes you immune to damage. Looping arcane fusion with sanctum spell lets you do infinite damage. If you just want to do stupidly large piles of negative levels, Flash Frost Fell Drain control temperature does a negative level a round to anyone within hundreds of feet.

[Jormengand]

But that costs a big pile of gold and XP. You see, the epic spell rules are stupid broken and encourage you to cheese the DC down to zero. Actually doing anything offensive with that is kind of rough, but you can bootstrap your casting stats up to stupidly large numbers very quickly (or just cascade Solars).

Also, if you actually want to cast some giant epic spell without mitigation, you don't want to get a big bonus from items or whatever. Instead you're going to cast sadism, then drop that giant AoE damage spell from BOVD on a population center. That should net a bonus on the order of thousands at the low end.

But honestly using the rules for epic spells is kind of a waste. You can get plenty of stupidly huge amounts of power with significantly lower level characters. A guy with improved familar (mirror mephit) who is level 14 can create an infinite army of mini-mes to do his bidding. planar binding summons efreet, who can wish for additional castings of planar binding. shapechange makes you immune to damage. Looping arcane fusion with sanctum spell lets you do infinite damage. If you just want to do stupidly large piles of negative levels, Flash Frost Fell Drain control temperature does a negative level a round to anyone within hundreds of feet.

Oh, of course, and there's also a way of getting a truenamer hold of every spell in existence, near-infinite staves of rapid barrage, and the quick draw feat for good measure, all at level 1. I was just having some fun.

[daremetoidareyo]

Oh, of course, and there's also a way of getting a truenamer hold of every spell in existence, near-infinite staves of rapid barrage, and the quick draw feat for good measure, all at level 1. I was just having some fun.

Taking 10 on my diplomacy check:

Citations, please.


Except for the having fun part, that part was self evident you puckish citation angel, you.

[Brova]

Taking 10 on my diplomacy check:

Citations, please.


Except for the having fun part, that part was self evident you puckish citation angel, you.

I assume it's a limited version of what every character ever can do by working a job, buying a candle of invocation, summoning an efreet, and commanding it to wish for a magic item of whatever you happen to think the best magic item properties are. I favor "all spells with all permutations of metamagic at will, all spells with a duration and an unambiguously positive effect permanently, all magic item properties, and plus graham's number to all numeric character stats which can be increased by magic items".

[Jormengand]

I assume it's a limited version of what every character ever can do by working a job, buying a candle of invocation, summoning an efreet, and commanding it to wish for a magic item of whatever you happen to think the best magic item properties are.

Similar; it's using the boost from Universal Aptitude and the Book of Vile Darkness' sacrifice rules and obtaining a wish that way. Then, skull talismans of every spell ever. And of course, DCS my feat into quick draw and go to town with staves of rapid barrage.

[Threadnaught]

Ultimate Xamnim (a TO version of Xamnim) stomps all over this challenge.

He's "only" level 30, but still, he wins. Try casting something at him, oh sorry, he's immune to Death, Mind Affecting, Grapple/Entangle and Disjunction/Dispel Seed/Antimagic Field. His Phylactery and Soul Gems are likewise immune, to Wish based teleportation shenanigans. Protected by Ice Assassins linked to Xamnim by a Permanenced Interplanar Telepathic Bond.

Oh yeah, Ultimate Xamnim is a Demilich. :smallamused:

[Soranar]

Anytime I hear Gestalt optimization my first thought is

Spell to Power Erudite on one side
Factotum on the other


More Actions, access to any spell, any power

Can mimic any ability and grant yourself more standard actions, more move actions and more turns

oh an you can max out any skill for epic abuse

[Nohwl]

if i don't use all 40 levels, would whatever i build still get put up against something with all 40 levels or would it get scaled down to something equal to my level?

[noob]

Well but do the creator of the thread really read builds?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, you could start by gestalting some spellhoarding dragon HD with wizard, dweomerkeeper, IotSV, and incantatrix levels. That should be pretty fun. Not super high-OP, just stacking on powerful PrCs and leaving the shenanigans on the spell-side only.


Edit: incidentally, it seems a bit like you want high PO, not TO. Either way, check out AvatarVecna's build here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19299172&postcount=59).

[noob]

Since it is gish you could also have druid and planar shepherd of the far realms levels too.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Psion, Persistent Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm), can be defeated only by the Annulus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicArtifacts.htm#annulus) (major artifact). This can be accomplished at level 20 non-gestalt.

Epic Spell Shenanigans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?353655-Permanent-epic-spells#11) can also be used to make a character invulnerable. Note that the instantaneous duration means the spell causes a permanent change to the character, after which the magic is gone and the effect is not dispellable, just like using Wish to add an inherent bonus to a stat is instantaneous but brings about a permanent change.

[koboldwins]

Epic hand book throw the player up against a prismatic dragon they start at cr 70 I think but immune to magic and projectiles so only melee combat can hurt it and it is able to breath prismatic walls as its breath. Or the 100 handed handed thing from epic handbook with 100 greatswords that have the ability to cut people in half on a 10 and add a template to make it immune to magic.
Magic can only take you so far before things become immune to it

[Renen]

Personal suggestion for part of the build:
3 levels in cleric for Initiate of Mystra
Planar shepard with chosen plane being a dead magic plane.

Assuming you dont skimp on CL, you will auto-pass CL checks, and no magic can get to you. Anything that isnt magic couldnt get to you 30 levels ago


Then you turn into umm... black ooze was it? Have someone hit you with a sharp object and split in half. Now there are 2 of you.
Then have 1 of u turn into an animal and another cast awaken on it. Suddenly the animal you gets +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Repeat until the HD gives you however many feats you want, and until your CHA is high enough. Then find a way to cast off CHA.

[koboldwins]

Also a kobold wit dragon wrought shannanigans and things like unseely fay and magic blooded, ice armor (frostburn) feat to make all spell enhancements work on supper natural and spell like ability's end play a maxed level binder from time of magic bind the one with phantasmal killer and have spell focus/greater on both ice and illusion choose winter unseely fay the target gets your cha mod subtracted from all save if you are within 5 ft of them. I played a level 13 binder that had a DC 57 phantasmal killer if it was within 5 ft of the target so at level 40 or 80 X_X nothing makes the save because DC is level +cha

This got disallowed after the first session killed 7 adult dragons in 1 combat at level 13 DM said it was to broken. The rest of the party killer 5 total between all of them and a full city of people helping

[Brova]

Then you turn into umm... black ooze was it? Have someone hit you with a sharp object and split in half. Now there are 2 of you.
Then have 1 of u turn into an animal and another cast awaken on it. Suddenly the animal you gets +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Repeat until the HD gives you however many feats you want, and until your CHA is high enough. Then find a way to cast off CHA.

Couple of notes. First, awaken requires a will save based on the HD of the target. That means you need to either awaken yourself using force of personality to get Cha to will saves, or you need to drain off the HD. Second, awaken costs a small pile of XP and takes 24 hours to cast. Neither of those is insurmountable, but neither is trivial. I find that the better strategy is the use of a spell like or supernatural limited wish to emulate awaken, possibly through the Dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell and the Spell domain. The Envy domain works as well, though it is not offered by Mystra, meaning you can't use antimagic field cheese.

As far as switching to Cha casting, you can get pretty far by simply having stupid huge piles of turn attempts and DMM. If you really feel the need to get stupid huge save DCs as well, you can always go Sorcerer with the domain ACF from Complete Champion and some way of casting divine spells. Perhaps Rainbow Servant. Actually, Dread Necromancer 8/Rainbow Servant 10/Dweomerkeeper 10 does all that and can take bonus domain for any needed domain options. And you have twelve more levels to throw at random crap.

[Renen]

Do the splitting trick, have your clone awaken u wasting his own xp, for as long as he can.
Then go and split again, possibly using diamond mind maneuver for concentration into will save. Splitting again after getting awakened means more hd, and more skill points to put into concentration.

[AvatarVecna]

Use the Khepri build in my signature, extending it just barely into epic levels (so, level 21). My bugs have an Intelligence of 10 billion googol and infinite feats; if you advance even a single swarm to 21 HD, epic feats become available.

To clarify, Khepri has many things that number in billions of googol: Hit Points, spells per day, Intelligence, Charisma, feats, skill points, and actions per round. Due to her essentially infinite feats, i have all metamagic feats, all feat-based metamagic reducers applied to all metamagic feats, all Sudden metamagic feats, all spells known (thanks, Arcane Disciple and Extra Spell!) Charisma mod to all saves (thanks Evil Blessing!), and many more things. Khepri spends her time basically using her essentially infinite actions to pop out of billion-layer metamagick'd Time Stops, block everything everybody ever tries to do to her, shoot you a million times with ever offensive spell that's ever been printed, and pop back into billion-layer metamagick'd Time Stops.

I don't even use Wishes to pull that off, although I could. My point is that the only beings in the world that can really give Khepri the middle finger arePun-Pun, who can literally do anything anybody can think of ever, and the Lady of Pain, because nonexistent stats trump existing stats. Khepri is TO bull****, and proud of it; if your problem player isn't playing Pun-Pun and you're playing Khepri right, they'll never win.


That said, trying to fight char-op with char-op just needlessly escalates things; in the case of Khepri, it's like trying to put out a kitchen fire with a nuclear bomb. If this player is causing problems for the other players and ruining the group's collective fun, try talking them out of behaving thusly IRL before using TO cow poo to ruin any semblance of balance just because they said you could never challenge their power.

[Pippin]

Have a player who thinks he can trump anything the playground can make.
Pun-Pun is disallowed by DM fiat.
Forgot about Sarrukh... yeah, none of them.
Well, since your DM forbade Sarrukhs rather than infinite loops, you can always go nuts with Extract Gift and Power Leech. No Sarrukh. :smallbiggrin:

[ekarney]

Less optimal than most other builds here, but it should get the job done, and it uses two of my favourite classes, Wu Jen and Binder.

You don't even need to gestalt for this. But I'll throw a gestalt line in anyway. I'm also using the "should be prohibited" clause as "Well it's TO and it says should, not is". Especially since the reasoning here is balance the OP wants to throw balance out the window.

Race anything medium sized or smaller with no LA/RHD.

Templates: Multiheaded (Lernaean) +2HD, +4 LA.

Line 1:
Binder/Warblade/something, i dunno.

Line 2:
Wu Jen/Anima Mage/Jade Phoenix Mage/Spellguard of Silverymoon

PM me for numbers.

Basically, cast Transcend Mortality on the enemy, dispel it ASAP.
Pump your to hit on touch attacks. Also cast it on yourself persist it, and explode yourself at the end of it. Alternatively, use incantatrix instead of anima mage pump your spellcraft, use binder's web enhancements broken minionmancy and persisted Transcend Mortality.

Lernaean can only be killed by decapitating all it's heads and dealing at least 5 points of fire/acid damage to the stump, attacking anywhere else has no effect. Plus you get Energy Resistance 50 from TM.

Very hard to kill, even harder to keep dead.

If you are prohibiting dual progression classes though, either replace Anima Mage with incantatrix, or binder with the feats that give you second level binding. and JPM with Telflammer Shadowlord and get darkness on your spell list and true see through it, and pump your reflex saves.

I'm hoping that this is an off the books fight as a once off activity that won't affect your campaign canon.

[Aharon]

Use the Khepri build in my signature, extending it just barely into epic levels (so, level 21). My bugs have an Intelligence of 10 billion googol and infinite feats; if you advance even a single swarm to 21 HD, epic feats become available.

To clarify, Khepri has many things that number in billions of googol: Hit Points, spells per day, Intelligence, Charisma, feats, skill points, and actions per round. Due to her essentially infinite feats, i have all metamagic feats, all feat-based metamagic reducers applied to all metamagic feats, all Sudden metamagic feats, all spells known (thanks, Arcane Disciple and Extra Spell!) Charisma mod to all saves (thanks Evil Blessing!), and many more things. Khepri spends her time basically using her essentially infinite actions to pop out of billion-layer metamagick'd Time Stops, block everything everybody ever tries to do to her, shoot you a million times with ever offensive spell that's ever been printed, and pop back into billion-layer metamagick'd Time Stops.

I don't even use Wishes to pull that off, although I could. My point is that the only beings in the world that can really give Khepri the middle finger arePun-Pun, who can literally do anything anybody can think of ever, and the Lady of Pain, because nonexistent stats trump existing stats. Khepri is TO bull****, and proud of it; if your problem player isn't playing Pun-Pun and you're playing Khepri right, they'll never win.


That said, trying to fight char-op with char-op just needlessly escalates things; in the case of Khepri, it's like trying to put out a kitchen fire with a nuclear bomb. If this player is causing problems for the other players and ruining the group's collective fun, try talking them out of behaving thusly IRL before using TO cow poo to ruin any semblance of balance just because they said you could never challenge their power.

Very nice build, I bookmarked it :smallsmile:

But can she still talk?

[AvatarVecna]

Very nice build, I bookmarked it :smallsmile:

But can she still talk?

Thanks, I appreciate it when my hard work is rewarded, even if just with praise. It actually helped me truly understand the secret to TO: you have to care about something enough to delve into the deepest reaches of the game system and drag out the most powerful possibilities, while also giving absolutely no ****s for the poor soul you're about to unleash your TO on. It probably bears mentioning that, like her namesake, Khepri was borne from a dark, desperate rage that can only come from finding an idiot on the internet who refuses to let massive amounts of outside thought penetrate the shield surrounding their opinions on what is and isn't RAW/TO.

Technically yes, but her hivemind Intelligence is only as "low" as it is because Excel gives up trying to calculate numbers somewhere around (2 googol)^3, and I care about giving vaguely approximately correct numbers. She's as close to being literally omniscient as a D&D character can be without literally being omniscient; what does it matter what some puny mortals are talking about, even if they're epic wizards?

[noob]

Do the ridiculous casting of Khepri compare to an infinite time of action in a null time.(well with a finite casting you can stop the time only a finite time)
also do khepri have a huge initiative(really important in T0 even if you are shape changed into a dire tortoise for having an simple action before others because you know that the dm will probably rule that if there is 2 dire tortoise they roll initiative)

[ben-zayb]

Probably won't fly with the requirements, but in the spirit of this thread, this is the Naughty Sorceress (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430414-Naughty-Sorceress-(Level-4-Miracle-Wish-Gate-Shapechange-Sarrukh-Wealth-Pact-free-TO)&p=19590450#post19590450). (shameless plug, too, if anyone wants to critique or poke holes)

[noob]

"Max of 40 levels so you have 80 class levels to play with, but bonus points for those who don't use them all"
So if you do it with 4 levels you get bonus points.

[ben-zayb]

"Max of 40 levels so you have 80 class levels to play with, but bonus points for those who don't use them all"
So if you do it with 4 levels you get bonus points.

Ah, alright. I might as well make a separate thread about it for my own reference purposes! Writing it down is a chore, though, for someone as lazy as me.:smallannoyed:

EDIT: Oh, and are there bonus points for also not using Miracle, or any pleas of assistance from deities or BBEGs of the various planes?

[LoyalPaladin]

Have a player who thinks he can trump anything the playground can make.
Why would you say that! It's only a matter of time before-


We'll see.

Let's start by being a wizard 40/cleric 40. That sounds like a plan. Now, the question here is, how high can we get our spellcraft?
No! I knew this day would come!

[Jormengand]

No! I knew this day would come!

What, the day when I would play something other than a truenamer? :smalltongue:

[LoyalPaladin]

What, the day when I would play something other than a truenamer? :smalltongue:
When the Wizard // Cleric with an item familiar happened. This is why you should never claim to be able to out-build the playground collective...

[AvatarVecna]

Do the ridiculous casting of Khepri compare to an infinite time of action in a null time.(well with a finite casting you can stop the time only a finite time)
also do khepri have a huge initiative(really important in T0 even if you are shape changed into a dire tortoise for having an simple action before others because you know that the dm will probably rule that if there is 2 dire tortoise they roll initiative)

I sat down and calculated it at the time; Khepri and her multitude of uncountable swarms have enough spells per day to cast for about 250 rounds with every individual swarm casting. Of course, long before they ran out, they'd drop a billion-layer Time Stop and take a few centuries off from the fight to rest up and heal back a few billion HP. And her actual initiative score is benefiting from any feats that give it a bonus, or base it off Int or Cha; not to mention that she has more Contingency spells readied than everybody else in the multiverse combined at all times, which are prepared to cast literally any spell/metamagic combo for literally any situation that could come up.

Besides, when she starts her turn within a layered Time Stop, pops out of it and uses tons of spells, and then pops back into a layered Time Stop, there's not really any time for anybody else to do anything unless they can drop her Time Stop (which requires somehow being prepared to target her when she pops out of Time Stop and not getting anything you do negated/dispelled/countered by the multitude of swarms whose only actions are preparing spells just in case you try to do something tricksy like that.

So yeah, good luck beating a somebody who can infinite start, stop, and restart the flow of Time.

[Renen]

Prolly the only viable threat to Khepri would be a well, played god. Reality revision to make every spell permanent, psionic ice assassins of itself polymorphed into strings and made into clothes, each with reality revision as well, ability to go first period because "im a god".

[AvatarVecna]

Prolly the only viable threat to Khepri would be a well, played god. Reality revision to make every spell permanent, psionic ice assassins of itself polymorphed into strings and made into clothes, each with reality revision as well, ability to go first period because "im a god".

And even then, it's questionable. The gods have stats, and people have tried to kill them before. If Khepri wasn't triggering their divine sense, they'd be just as unprepared for her as anybody else. Of course, Pun-Pun and the Lady of Pain could kick her ass, but that's true of everybody.

[Jormengand]

Prolly the only viable threat to Khepri would be a well, played god. Reality revision to make every spell permanent, psionic ice assassins of itself polymorphed into strings and made into clothes, each with reality revision as well, ability to go first period because "im a god".

Or some of the other high-TO tricks like Pun-Pun or McApocalypse might manage it.

[Renen]

And even then, it's questionable. The gods have stats, and people have tried to kill them before. If Khepri wasn't triggering their divine sense, they'd be just as unprepared for her as anybody else. Of course, Pun-Pun and the Lady of Pain could kick her ass, but that's true of everybody.

I mean a custom god, that has actually good salient abilities, clothes made of ice assassins of itself, spamming contingencies and time stops, and having such fun things like a dead magic zone around it, while using Alter reality to not care (I THINK Alter Reality doesnt care about dead magic zones)

[ben-zayb]

Probably won't fly with the requirements, but in the spirit of this thread, this is the Naughty Sorceress (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430414-Naughty-Sorceress-(Level-4-Miracle-Wish-Gate-Shapechange-Sarrukh-Wealth-Pact-free-TO)&p=19590450#post19590450). (shameless plug, too, if anyone wants to critique or poke holes)

Stupidly used the Edit box instead of replying to the thread . *shrug*

[AvatarVecna]

I mean a custom god, that has actually good salient abilities, clothes made of ice assassins of itself, spamming contingencies and time stops, and having such fun things like a dead magic zone around it, while using Alter reality to not care (I THINK Alter Reality doesnt care about dead magic zones)

Oh, yeah, if you optimized a deity from the ground up, they could totally trounce Khepri.

...maybe. TBH, the one thing I didn't really look into for Khepri (or indeed, any other build I've ever done) is methods of achieving Divine Rank; if Khepri can access Divine Rank, she can shoot that into the stratosphere as well (probably) and surpass even a transcendental deity in power.

In either case, though, if you have to literally design a deity in such a way that Khepri can't kill them, I think Khepri is appropriately TO for this kind of request.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Your original Khepri has levels in blackguard and paladin, for double cha to saves. You could add a level of marshal instead/in addition (since we have 40 gestalt levels), to get cha to initiative, hide, move silently, tumble and such. Also, since this is gestalt: truenamer 20, conjunctive gate.

Each of your wasps can use aid another (to eachother or to you), due to having tons of ranks in every skill. Using the optional epic rule 'Cooperation' (ELH p. 38), you'd get a circumstance bonus of [check result] / 10 + 1, which would be in the vincinity of a googol bonus on skill checks per wasp. They can also use aid another to boost attack rolls and AC.

[AvatarVecna]

Your original Khepri has levels in blackguard and paladin, for double cha to saves. You could add a level of marshal instead/in addition (since we have 40 gestalt levels), to get cha to initiative, hide, move silently, tumble and such. Also, since this is gestalt: truenamer 20, conjunctive gate.

Each of your wasps can use aid another (to eachother or to you), due to having tons of ranks in every skill. Using the optional epic rule 'Cooperation' (ELH p. 38), you'd get a circumstance bonus of [check result] / 10 + 1, which would be in the vincinity of a googol bonus on skill checks per wasp. They can also use aid another to boost attack rolls and AC.

Yes! More lovely lovely bull**** TO! I love it! It bears mentioning, however, that while the hivemind has all of the things I've mentioned (and that you've mentioned), Khepri herself (in her squishy meat-body) does not have the essentially-infinite Intelligence/Charisma; the double Cha to saves is to help make her saves virtually impregnable (since she's already Cha-based anyway). Between those things, Force of Personality, and Evil's Blessing, her saves (especially her Will) are pumped into the stratosphere even by normal PO standards.

[Renen]

Multiple readied actions per turn to counterspell any spell thats incoming should be sufficient to keep Khep alive

[AvatarVecna]

Multiple readied actions per turn to counterspell any spell thats incoming should be sufficient to keep Khep alive

Yep. Between layered Time Stop shenanigans, nearly uncountable Contingency spells at the ready, and nearly uncountable readied actions ready to counter, dodge, mitigate, and ignore anything that could possibly come her way, and Khepri is ridiculously difficult to kill. I think I actually mentioned in my original write-up that she could spend 1 googol feats on Toughness and then spend an eternity tanking shots from an army of high-PO Hulking Hurlers. Yes, the DPR of an army of optimized Hulking Hurlers is chump change compared to Khepri's HP, and even then, you have to get past her various immunities/regeneration/contingencies/readied actions/Hide Life to kill her. It's absolutely ridiculous.

[noob]

if you have an totally infinite time while khepri can not do anything you can beat him by just casting 153347^2145125^2153153^466876^482646^575437^368679 spells or something of this kind

[AvatarVecna]

if you have an totally infinite time while khepri can not do anything you can beat him by just casting 153347^2145125^2153153^466876^482646^575437^368679 spells or something of this kind

Firstly, her. Secondly, the eternity tanking shots from Hulking Hurlers was just an example of what could be done. Khepri would obviously never give anybody the chance to affect her if she was being played optimally.

[noob]

All the thing is who can play first which is weird since dire tortoise does not make its mechanics about the standard action before battle it gives clear.

[AvatarVecna]

The problem is that Khepri doesn't even ever roll initiative: the only reason for her to come out of her billion-layer Time Stop is if she's attacking someone, and the end of her attack routine is going back into a billion-layer Time Stop; no chance for anybody else to act except for potentially immediate actions, no initiative is rolled, all spells and contingencies are countered or dispelled or Teleport Through Time'd out of existence, and even beyond all that, she can pull off the dire tortoise trick, too.

But at this point, she's probably just going to wipe out the planet itself using a googol or two castings of Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, just for ****s and giggles. Or who knows.