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ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-03, 12:58 PM
This is probably a foolish question, but:

A nymph (+7 LA) can cast divine spells as a 7th-level druid. If that nymph were to have druid class levels, would the caster levels and spell lists stack? Thus giving a Nymph 7/Druid 13 the casting abilities of a level 20 druid, with a weakened wildshape and animal companion (unless the PH2 variant was taken, of course)?

And if they don't stack, does the nymph get a double amount of lower-level druid spells? Or how does it work?

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 01:01 PM
As an associated class, Racial Hit Dice (but not LA) for a Nymph stack with levels of Druid for determining Druid spellcasting level.

EDIT:

That is to say, a Nymph has 6 RHD.

A Nymph 6/Druid 2 casts spells as a 9th level druid, but has the class features of a druid 2 and all the nymph racial features. Further, due to her +7 LA, she is considered a 15th level character.

Tokiko Mima
2007-05-03, 01:04 PM
This is probably a foolish question, but:

A nymph (+7 LA) can cast divine spells as a 7th-level druid. If that nymph were to have druid class levels, would the caster levels and spell lists stack? Thus giving a Nymph 7/Druid 13 the casting abilities of a level 20 druid, with a weakened wildshape and animal companion (unless the PH2 variant was taken, of course)?

And if they don't stack, does the nymph get a double amount of lower-level druid spells? Or how does it work?

The Nymph would cast as a level 20 Druid would, but only the class features of a level 13 Druid. You realize you aren't factoring in the monsters Hit Die into ECL? Nymph's also have 6 racial HD of Fae.

Talya
2007-05-03, 01:06 PM
Ironicly, the average nymph does not qualify for druid levels. (Alignment.)

Draz74
2007-05-03, 01:08 PM
Example: At ECL 16, a Nymph character can have 3 class levels, along with her 6 racial hit dice.

A Nymph Fey 6 / Druid 3 would cast spells like a 10th-level druid, and have other druid abilities (e.g. Animal Companion, or the PHBII Shapechange abilities, which I highly recommend especially in this build) as a 3rd-level druid.

If your game goes all the way to ECL 20, you'd still only have the casting abilities of a 14th-level druid, so this build really isn't super-strong (like most builds with lots of LA). Then again, the druid has excessive power to lose, so I still think this would be a fun build to play.

My problem with Nymph character builds is that I find the advantages of increasing Charisma too tempting, and neglect pumping up my Wisdom, which makes Druid less appealing compared to Cha-based casting.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-03, 01:08 PM
Yeah, works that way with Dragons and Cloaker Lords too.

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-03, 01:08 PM
That would be why they are not actually druids, they simply cast Druid spells.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-03, 01:09 PM
You realize you aren't factoring in the monsters Hit Die into ECL? Nymph's also have 6 racial HD of Fae.

Dang. I knew that, but when I didn't see it in the description I assumed that I'd been mistaken. Oh well.

Thanks to both all of you. (much ninja'ing)

Gitman00
2007-05-03, 01:13 PM
Example: At ECL 16, a Nymph character can have 3 class levels, along with her 6 racial hit dice.

A Nymph Fey 6 / Druid 3 would cast spells like a 10th-level druid, and have other druid abilities (e.g. Animal Companion, or the PHBII Shapechange abilities, which I highly recommend especially in this build) as a 3rd-level druid.

If your game goes all the way to ECL 20, you'd still only have the casting abilities of a 14th-level druid, so this build really isn't super-strong (like most builds with lots of LA). Then again, the druid has excessive power to lose, so I still think this would be a fun build to play.

My problem with Nymph character builds is that I find the advantages of increasing Charisma too tempting, and neglect pumping up my Wisdom, which makes Druid less appealing compared to Cha-based casting.

Wait a second... I thought the +7 LA includes the 6 Fey HD. So wouldn't a Nymph Fey 6/Druid 3 have an ECL of 10? Or am I missing something?

Draz74
2007-05-03, 01:16 PM
Wait a second... I thought the +7 LA includes the 6 Fey HD. So wouldn't a Nymph Fey 6/Druid 3 have an ECL of 10? Or am I missing something?

You're missing the inherent suckiness of Racial Hit Dice. No, they aren't included in the LA. :smallfrown:

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 01:17 PM
Wait a second... I thought the +7 LA includes the 6 Fey HD. So wouldn't a Nymph Fey 6/Druid 3 have an ECL of 10? Or am I missing something?

No. LA and RHD are completely disparate entities, which are added together with CHD to determine ECL.

The formula for Estimated Character Level is as follows:

Racial Hit Dice + Class Hit Dice + Level Adjustment = Estimated Character Level

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 01:18 PM
You're missing the inherent suckiness of Racial Hit Dice. No, they aren't included in the LA. :smallfrown:

RHD are far, far better than LA. At least you get HP, BAB, and skills from RHD.

Ramza00
2007-05-03, 01:26 PM
Here is the relevant part of the srd


A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#monstersAndClassLevels

Tokiko Mima
2007-05-03, 01:30 PM
RHD are far, far better than LA. At least you get HP, BAB, and skills from RHD.

Yeah, but all the cool stuff you would want to be a monster for are included in LA, not RHD.

Powerful monster races tend to make great melee fighters, but not as good casters due to the inevitable loss of all-important caster levels.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 01:36 PM
Yeah, but all the cool stuff you would want to be a monster for are included in LA, not RHD.

Powerful monster races tend to make great melee fighters, but not as good casters due to the inevitable loss of all-important caster levels.

I don't know about that. Look at the Minotaur:


* +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence (minimum 3), -2 Charisma.
* Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
* Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
* A minotaur’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Racial Hit Dice: A minotaur begins with six levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +5, and Will +5.
* Racial Skills: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 9 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, and Spot. Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks.
* Racial Feats: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it three feats.
* Weapon Proficiency: A minotaur is proficient with the greataxe and all simple weapons.
* +5 natural armor bonus.
* Natural Weapons: Gore (1d8).
* Special Attacks (see above): Powerful charge.
* Special Qualities (see above): Natural cunning, scent.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran.
* Favored Class: Barbarian.
* Level adjustment +2.


Note the "racial hit dice" and "racial skills" sections. That LA covers the Natural Armor and the size (each being worth +1).

Parasocrates
2007-05-03, 02:03 PM
I don't know about that. Look at the Minotaur:



Note the "racial hit dice" and "racial skills" sections. That LA covers the Natural Armor and the size (each being worth +1).

The Level Adjustment also covers the giant boost to ability scores. (If one point of racial bonus to strength is worth one point of racial penalty to intelligence and charisma each, then the Minitaur has an enourmous positive balance in racial ability score adjustments.)

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 02:05 PM
The Level Adjustment also covers the giant boost to ability scores. (If one point of racial bonus to strength is worth one point of racial penalty to intelligence and charisma each, then the Minitaur has an enourmous positive balance in racial ability score adjustments.)

Not really. +4 of that Strength and +2 of that Constitution come directly from being Large size. Without that adjustment, he has a +4 Str, +2 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha, or a total mod of +0.

Tokiko Mima
2007-05-03, 02:06 PM
I don't know about that. Look at the Minotaur:
Note the "racial hit dice" and "racial skills" sections. That LA covers the Natural Armor and the size (each being worth +1).

Which is why the Minotaur has a relatively small LA of only +2, and 6 RHD. If you look at Nymph's and other higher LA creatures you'll see that they get their benefits primarily from their LA's.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 02:07 PM
Which is why the Minotaur has a relatively small LA of only +2, and 6 RHD. If you look at Nymph's and other higher LA creatures you'll see that they get their benefits primarily from their LA's.

Well, yes. In general, Su, Sp, and Ps abilities increase LA, while Ex and untyped increase RHD. There are exceptions (like breath weapons, which usually increase both), but that's the general trend.

Driderman
2007-05-03, 02:30 PM
Now just put a half-dragon template on that minotaur and increase his racial HD to D12s and give him fighter Base Attack progression + An additional +8 to strength, amongst other nice bonusses, give it a greatweapon and watch it go...

Draz74
2007-05-03, 02:50 PM
RHD are far, far better than LA. At least you get HP, BAB, and skills from RHD.

True, though LA wouldn't be so bad if they included RHD, like the poster that I was responding to seemed to think.

But yeah, obviously if there was a choice between playing a Sorcerer 8 / LA +2 character, or a Sorcerer 8 / RHD 2 character, all else being equal, the RHD character has a huge advantage!

bedablachem
2007-05-03, 02:59 PM
Note the "racial hit dice" and "racial skills" sections. That LA covers the Natural Armor and the size (each being worth +1).And what covers the darkvision, natural weapon, SA and SQ?

Jasdoif
2007-05-03, 03:01 PM
Now just put a half-dragon template on that minotaur and increase his racial HD to D12s and give him fighter Base Attack progression + An additional +8 to strength, amongst other nice bonusses, give it a greatweapon and watch it go...You don't necessarily get full d12 hit dice from the half-dragon template. The existing racial hit dice are increased in size by one step (from d8 to d10, here). And you wouldn't get the BAB of a dragon from the template, though that doesn't matter here since a minotaur has a fighter BAB progression to begin with.

It's still not a bad thought, though bumping your LA up to +5 may sting in the long run.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-03, 03:35 PM
And what covers the darkvision, natural weapon, SA and SQ?

...that'd be the RHD.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-04, 01:17 AM
The Darkvision is covered by being the race in question.

The Natural Weapons technically add 1 to the LA. Especially since the Minotaur will always be 1 attack ahead of the Fighter per Full Attack, except at ECLs 11, 12, 16, 17(where the Fighter breaks even). On the other hand, +2 is probably about right where it stands.

Bender
2007-05-04, 04:30 AM
For fey druids, look here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/3CsX278ZDGQQ62al3RP.html) on this site. You might be able to pull it of to have all your druid spells draw from charisma instead of wisdom.

Caelestion
2007-05-04, 10:30 AM
Don't forget that natural spell-casters don't use material components. Thus, creatures such as Rakshasas, Dragons and Nymphs effectively have Eschew Materials for their natural spell-casting and the associated class.

Jasdoif
2007-05-04, 11:28 AM
Don't forget that natural spell-casters don't use material components. Thus, creatures such as Rakshasas, Dragons and Nymphs effectively have Eschew Materials for their natural spell-casting and the associated class.Uh...no.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spells
Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows.

A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.

Perhaps you're thinking of spell-like abilities?

Caelestion
2007-05-04, 08:28 PM
Well, I distinctly remember reading somewhere that what I posted was in fact correct. I'll be blowed if I can remember where though.