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View Full Version : Junkyard Wars XII: Dragonmark Heirs + Touchstones - Martial Weapons



WhamBamSam
2015-07-26, 04:48 PM
Welcome to Junkyard Stadium! It is in this hallowed pile of miscellaneous parts that we will hold a competition of Practical Optimization with three components. The catch? Competitors may not use the third item in their builds!

Goal: Create a build that showcases the selected ingredients while steering clear of the Forbidden Ingredient.

This competition has two Necessary Components and one Forbidden Component. After a hiatus, we're back to give you a new chance to leave your mark on the optimization community. And you bet your ass that's a pun. Puns are, after all, a touchstone of these competitions. Fire up your rudisplorkers, this round's components are...


Necessary: From A Few Eberron Books... Dragonmark Heir Analogues! (That is, one or more PrCs whose levels count as levels in Dragonmark Heir for Dragonmark CL, or Child of Khyber)
Necessary: From Planar Handbook or Sandstorm... Planar Touchstone or Touchstone!
Forbidden: From Lot's of Places... Martial Weapons!

Contestants:

So you wanna give this thing a shot? Awesome! The rules are as follows:
Creation: 32 point-buy is the presumed creation method. If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in Elegance and/or Power. You may assume that you will have enough exp to reach ECL 20, and that the occasional bit of crafting, use of spells with exp components, or the like won't prevent you from doing so. However, LA buyoff is an alternate rule which is not in play.
Workshop: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. If you use web material, link it. Dragon Magazine Compendium is allowed, as are Oriental Adventures and the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt and fractional saves are not allowed, as they create a different playing field.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until after the reveal in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Disputes: Any scoring disputes should be sent to the Chair via PM. Valid disputes include RAW misreadings, arithmetic errors, things missed that are present in the entry, and inconsistently applied criteria. Invalid disputes include disagreements on matters of opinion, a judge not catching something not explicitly presented in the entry, and the like. Invalid disputes will be responded to via PM by the Chair, but valid disputes will be posted in-thread for the judge to review. When disputing, please indicate the judge the dispute is intended for and provide a quote of the disputed comment or comments. Note: the Chair may edit or paraphrase any disputes in presenting them to the judges.
Leadership is banned: We're creating one things, not all of the things. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.
Presentation: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability throughout its life. Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries. Also for this reason, PLEASE do not include any material that may or may not offend any potential viewers/judges/competitors OR break forum rules. Any builds which violate forum rules WILL be withheld from posting.


Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

Judges:

Scoring: Each judge is required to provide the criteria by which they are judging the builds. By "criteria," we mean a simple explanation of what the judge is looking for in each of the below categories and what kind of scoring we can expect. If a judge deems a build to be illegal, they may provide a 0 in Elegance but may not refuse to judge any build presented by the Chairman.
The Categories: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Components.


Originality: Basically put, does the build stand out from the crowd? Some judges score entries for the quality of their concept & backstory as well, though not all do. Providing at least some backstory is heavily encouraged, as it helps the judges figure out who the entry is.
Power: Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance: This category was formerly titled "Build Stability." Here, we're essentially measuring how skillfully you put your build together and how you balanced flavor with power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points. Some judges have penalized dipping classes in this category. Rule adherence and legality of sources is scored under this category. Using too many sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. Note: for this round, the use of Level Adjustment should not receive a deduction. LA Buyoff, however, may receive deductions at each individual judge's discretion.
Use of Components: Was the Forbidden Component avoided? Were the Necessary Components showcased, or simply used because they were necessary?

Disputes: Any scoring disputes will be posted by the Chairman in-thread after reviewing them privately. Valid disputes include RAW misreadings, arithmetic errors, things missed that are present in the entry, and inconsistently applied criteria. Invalid disputes include disagreements on matters of opinion, a judge not catching something not explicitly presented in the entry, and the like. Invalid disputes will be responded to via PM by the Chair, but valid disputes should be responded to by each individual judge. Judges are obligated to respond to disputes to ensure that everyone gets a fair shake. A judge's scores will only be recognized if they have recognized all disputes. In the absence of any other judges, the entries will be judged by the chairman.

Completion Time:

Contestants will have until [11:59 PM UTC on August 9th, 2015] to create their builds and PM them to the chairman, WhamBamSam.
Builds will then be posted simultaneously to avoid copying.
Judges will have until [11:59 PM UTC on August 25th, 2015] to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.
As the precedent has been set from Episode 2, should all prospective judges have posted their rulings in a neat, timely fashion and all disputes have been settled satisfactorily (to either judges, contestants, or the Chairperson), the judging period may end prematurely to give way to a new episode. No reason to keep working on a finished building and avoid moving onto the next one.

So who wants to sign up as a contestant and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing! We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build that doesn't gain a medal. Contestants are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM. Everyone else can vote in-thread. Ready? Steady? Get to the junkyard and start building!

Previous Competitions:
Episode 1: Shadowdancer + Sneak Attack - Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?337864-Junkyard-Wars-in-the-Playground-I)
Episode 2: Healing Spells + Ruby Knight Vindicator - Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342896-Junkyard-Wars-in-the-Playground-II)
Episode 3: Dragon Type + Mystic Theurge - Kobold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347412-Junkyard-Wars-in-the-Playground-III-Dragons-Theurges-Kobolds)
Episode 4: Book of Exalted Deeds + Undead Type - Completes Books (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355278-Junkyard-Wars-in-the-Playground-IV-BoED-Undead-Type-Completes)
Episode 5: Dread Witch + Reaping Mauler - Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?360271-Junkyard-Wars-in-the-Playground-V-Dread-Witch-Reaping-Mauler-Fighter)
Episode 6: Wonderworker + the Profession Skill - Factotum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369604-Junkyard-Wars-in-the-Playground-VI-Wonderworker-Profession-Skill-Factotum)
Episode 7: Metamagic Feats + Level Adjustment - Metamagic-Reducers! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374504-Junkyard-Wars-in-the-Playground-VII-Metamagic-Feats-LA-Metamagic-Reducers!)
Episode 8: Pounce + Small Size - Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388151-Junkyard-Wars-VIII-Pounce-Small-Size-Barbarian)
Episode 9: Earth Dreamer + Ordained Champion - Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?395791-Junkyard-Wars-IX-Earth-Dreamer-Ordained-Champion-Cleric)
Episode 10: Meldshaping + Natural Attacks - Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?403880-Junkyard-Wars-X-Meldshaping-Natural-Attacks-Totemist)
Episode 11: Magical Darkness + Improved Familiar - Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409650-Junkyard-Wars-XI-Magical-Darkness-Improved-Familiar-Wizard)

WhamBamSam
2015-07-26, 04:52 PM
FAQ:
What's this even about? I'm glad you asked, actually... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415117&postcount=1)

Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines and the Retraining options presented in the PHB2 are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while WhamBamSam is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is mechanically illegal by the RAW, the judge may give the build a score of 0 in Elegance, and proceed to judge the entry as if the offending material was not included. Failing to meet a special requirements for a prestige class does not merit a 0, but may qualify for a penalty, at the judge's discretion. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

Creatures and templates with no listed LA are playable, right? No. No listed LA for creatures is equivalent to LA: -. It is not suitable for PCs. If you use it, expect judges to look extremely disfavourably on it. Templates are arguably a different matter, but expect judges to look unfavorably on your entry.

Sian
2015-07-26, 05:38 PM
*scratches head* ... interesting combo, oughta make something work from those ...

Sian
2015-07-27, 05:00 AM
important but easily forgettable note, that i think cooks should be aware of.

Sidebar in Players Guide to Eberron


The dwarf, elf, gnome and halfing subraces detailed in the Monster Manual, as well as new subraces introduced in Races of Stone and Races of Destiny, are all considered members of the dragonmarked races. However, the bloodlines of the dragonmarked houses only manifest in the most common subraces. For example, only high elves who are members of the House Thuranni or House Phiarlan bloodlines display the Mark of Shadow, and only hill dwarves from House Kundarak display the Mark of Warding.
A member of a variant subrace -- any character whose type is humanoid and whose subtype is human, dwarf, elf, gnome, or halfling -- does qualify for the Aberrant Dragonmark feat, however since aberrant dragonmarks occasionally manifest among these subraces

tl;dr. Only races from Players handbook need apply.

Lakal shadowfox
2015-07-27, 07:52 AM
i'll try to partecipate too, if real life doesn't get too much in the way.

Sgt. Cookie
2015-07-27, 10:23 AM
tl;dr. Only races from Players handbook need apply.

Technically, the Half-Human Elf from the DMG (Pg 171) is still kosher, as the variant states "Half-human elves are half-elves raised by elves rather than by Human society". (The fact that it doesn't actually appear in the Monster Manual means that, by RAW, it still qualifies for a Dragonmark.)

Basically, Half-Human Elves lose their Diplomacy and Gather Information Bonus and in exchange get the Elven weapon proficiency feats*. Which is, in my opinion, a really good deal. Why don't people use this more often?


*They also get Favoured Class Wizard instead of Any. But no one uses Favoured Class rules.

WhamBamSam
2015-07-27, 02:09 PM
important but easily forgettable note, that i think cooks should be aware of.

Sidebar in Players Guide to Eberron


tl;dr. Only races from Players handbook need apply.I was not aware of that. That's irksome to say the least, and sort of baffling as to why they would ever introduce such a rule. That rule also doesn't seem to cover subraces from other sources, such as the Dragon Magic subraces, which have lines like this...

Otherwise, silverbrow humans are identical to the humans described in the Player's Handbook, except as noted below.That would seem to indicate that they are treated as their PHB-equivalent for the purpose of determining whether a dragonmark can manifest. In a sense they aren't the "most common subraces," but in another sense they are, what with being identical to them apart from the ways they explicitly say they're not. Then there are Azurin, who come from a sourcebook not mentioned in that sidebar, and who could certainly be born from the pure bloodline of a human dragonmarked house, but who lack the verbiage of the dragonblooded subraces, and so exist in a weird grey area, where I'm not sure I can guess at RAW or RAI. The vast majority of elven subraces also come from books not mentioned, though at least the sidebar says what it means on that front, with only High Elves (and, presumably, Forestlord Elves who have the Dragon Magic "identical" verbiage) being allowed into Mark of Shadow club.

It's also interesting because Heir of Siberys (which I can talk about without speculating, as it's incompatible with the required component) only requires that you be a member of a Dragonmarked race, which other subraces explicitly are, per that sidebar. So they can get a Siberys Mark that way, apparently.



On a different note, I'd like to try hammering out some sort voting system to help decide on components for future rounds, per the suggestion in the last thread. Since we need judges more than anything, I'm currently thinking that they will get two votes, and that each medal will be worth one vote, or perhaps scaling up with something like 1 vote for Bronze, 2 for Silver, 3 for Gold, 3 or 4 for judging. I, as chairman, will cast the deciding vote in case of a tie.

Everyone is allowed to make nominations though. So if you have suggestions for combinations or partial combinations, fire away.

I'll start. Here are some things I'd like to use for components, but haven't been able to find good combinations for yet.

The Area Attack feat (possibly with spells/powers above a certain level as the forbidden component)

Vile Damage

Swim Speed

And the lists of suggestions that PONIES and Troacctid have sent in (with suggestions that have been done already snipped).



Psionics + Magic - Metamagic
Gnomes + Races of Stone - Shadowcraft Mage or Blade Bravo
Binder + Casting - Anima Mage
Soulborn + Paladin - Divine Feats



+Any Weapon Style feat
+Exactly one level of Cleric
-Divine or domain feats

+Sneak Attack
+Breath weapon
-Dragonborn

+Dvati
+Exotic Weapon(s)
-Tome of Battle

+Stormwrack
+Unearthed Arcana
-Completes

Troacctid
2015-07-27, 02:20 PM
Ooh, I forgot I suggested Dvati. That could be an interesting round.

Amphetryon
2015-07-27, 02:39 PM
important but easily forgettable note, that i think cooks should be aware of.

Sidebar in Players Guide to Eberron


tl;dr. Only races from Players handbook need apply.

There is an online article regarding Reincarnation in Eberron. It may be worth perusing, regarding this particular note.

Sian
2015-07-27, 03:07 PM
... that must mean that you'd have to give some kind of ruling ... does the sidebar cover all subraces, only those in books explicitly mentioned or should it be ignored?

WhamBamSam
2015-07-27, 09:59 PM
... that must mean that you'd have to give some kind of ruling ... does the sidebar cover all subraces, only those in books explicitly mentioned or should it be ignored?As a DM, my instinct would just be to ignore the sidebar and say a human's a human and an elf's and elf, but we're working in terms of practical community optimization, and not just playing at my table, so we have a certain obligation to attempt to follow the RAW.

As chairman, my parsing is thus.

The dragonblooded subraces are stated to be identical to their PHB counterparts except in the ways that Dragon Magic says they're not. As it doesn't mention dragonmarks, we can assume that they are identical to their PHB counterparts in this respect, and so can manifest true dragonmarks. The fluff in Dragon Magic also suggests that some of these subraces can be born to parents from the "normal" PHB race, with the draconic bloodline/pact/whatever being dormant or recessive or something until it manifests in the character in question, so this would seem to gel in fluff as well as crunch, whether or not it's precisely RAI. The Dragon Magic subraces are kosher.

Other subraces from books not mentioned in the sidebar are more of a grey area. The intent of the passage seems to be to bar such subraces, and it makes its message pretty clear in the case of elves. However, some races, like the Half-Human Elves in the DMG or (to a slightly lesser extent) Azurin are implied to have identical bloodlines to their corresponding PHB race, and the rules concerning the human subtype in Races of Destiny strongly imply that the only thing stopping a given sort of Humanoid (Human) from being born with a dragonmark are explicit rules to the contrary and (possibly) in-game lineage. I've got a strong urge to just wash my hands of the issue and let the judges sort it out, but I guess I'd at least say that it's probably safer to avoid such races.

Troacctid
2015-07-27, 10:05 PM
Which books have Dragonmark Heirs? I don't know my Eberron materials that well.

WhamBamSam
2015-07-27, 10:25 PM
Dragonmark Heir itself is in Eberron Campaign Setting, there are a whole bunch of them in Dragonmarked, and there's Child of Khyber in this online article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20070416a) (which was working this morning, I do hope they haven't taken the archives down) which is a sort of Dragonmark Heir but for Aberrant Marks. I'm not sure if there are any others.

Sian
2015-07-28, 12:37 AM
As for Azurin, they're listed as part of "other human races" in Players Guide to Eberron p79, which is explicitly noted for "occasionally having aberrant dragonmarks", and the only reason i can see that Dragon Magic haven't been noticed is the fact that PGtE is from January 06, while Dragon Magic is from September 06. Azurin and Silverbrow Humans have identical text about qualifying as Humans, so by all accounts they should be seen as the same.

While from a fluff standpoint i can certainly see where you're comming from, I feel it an odd non-answer which only handhold in RAW is the fact that Dragon Magic wasn't made by the time the sidebar in PGtE was writen.

WhamBamSam
2015-07-28, 01:17 AM
As for Azurin, they're listed as part of "other human races" in Players Guide to Eberron p79, which is explicitly noted for "occasionally having aberrant dragonmarks", and the only reason i can see that Dragon Magic haven't been noticed is the fact that PGtE is from January 06, while Dragon Magic is from September 06. Azurin and Silverbrow Humans have identical text about qualifying as Humans, so by all accounts they should be seen as the same.

While from a fluff standpoint i can certainly see where you're comming from, I feel it an odd non-answer which only handhold in RAW is the fact that Dragon Magic wasn't made by the time the sidebar in PGtE was writen.No, Silverbrow Humans do have distinct rules from Azurin on this point. Azurin don't have any special rules beyond the regular old Humaniod (Human) status, which isn't enough, at least in the case of the races in Races of Destiny. Silverbrow Humans, by contrast, have a line (quoted above) saying they're identical to PHB humans except in the ways it says they're not. The other dragonblood races have the same. That is the handhold that the dragonblood subraces have in the RAW, and it seems a pretty strong one to me, what with "identical" being a pretty strong word, and "except as noted below" being pretty broadly applicable.

I don't think they necessarily *should* have a stronger case than any other subraces, but the RAW seems to suggest that they do from where I'm sitting.

Sian
2015-07-28, 01:49 AM
still not seeing the important difference beyond the fact that they aren't explictily mentioned, for previously mentioned temporal reasons.

Azurin have a much more fluffy reason to be born between two completely normal (boring) Humans as Silverbrow humans which is explicitly said to be a 'subtribe' having draconic ancestors way back, and any difference in ruling between the two of them seems very artificial.

WhamBamSam
2015-07-28, 02:02 AM
Otherwise, silverbrow humans are identical to the humans described in the Player's Handbook, except as noted below.

The argument, in essence, is that determining whether a silverbrow human can manifest a true dragonmark is a respect in which the race is identical to a standard human, because it isn't noted otherwise below that bit of text. I'm not sure what's so hard about this. Any other race with similar language would also qualify for a true dragonmark unless some Eberron book explicitly barred them from doing so.

I am not suggesting that this is a good rule, or makes sense fluff-wise, but it is my interpretation of the rules as they are written.

Sian
2015-07-28, 03:04 AM
... and what i'm saying is that it for me appears that the sidebar is inclusive for all races outside PHB that have subtype (Human)/(Elf)/etc ... and that the races mentioned aren't an explicit list of 'These, and only these, don't know how to do it' ... supported by the fact that Azurin while not mentioned in the sidebar is mentioned otherplace in the book as (implicitly) only able to get aberrant dragonmarks.

Otherwise also such things as alternate races from UA would be allowed.

Curmudgeon
2015-07-28, 03:46 AM
I think this ongoing argument makes another failed Junkyard Wars round likely. Contestants aren't going to like having a potential FtQ ruling hanging over their heads, and judges won't want the hassle.

Sgt. Cookie
2015-07-28, 08:30 AM
It's worth pointing out that Half-Human Elves have the same wording as Silverbrow Humans.


Half-human elves have all the half-elf racial traits described on page 18 of the Player's Handbook, with the following exceptions.

So, they ARE the PHB half-elves, except they trade in their Skill Bonuses for free Weapon Proficency feats.


To be honest, I say we just take Nick Fury's advice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOEr7kiysrE) and get to cooking.

Inevitability
2015-07-28, 09:20 AM
Basically, Half-Human Elves lose their Diplomacy and Gather Information Bonus and in exchange get the Elven weapon proficiency feats*. Which is, in my opinion, a really good deal. Why don't people use this more often?

Because it means you're still playing a half-elf? :smalltongue:

WhamBamSam
2015-07-28, 12:44 PM
... and what i'm saying is that it for me appears that the sidebar is inclusive for all races outside PHB that have subtype (Human)/(Elf)/etc ... and that the races mentioned aren't an explicit list of 'These, and only these, don't know how to do it' ... supported by the fact that Azurin while not mentioned in the sidebar is mentioned otherplace in the book as (implicitly) only able to get aberrant dragonmarks.

Otherwise also such things as alternate races from UA would be allowed.
It's worth pointing out that Half-Human Elves have the same wording as Silverbrow Humans.



So, they ARE the PHB half-elves, except they trade in their Skill Bonuses for free Weapon Proficency feats.


To be honest, I say we just take Nick Fury's advice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOEr7kiysrE) and get to cooking.There's a difference between the "has the same racial traits except X" used by the UA variant races, Half-Human Elves, and probably a few other subraces, and "is identical except X." Racial Traits are a relatively well-defined game term, whereas being identical is more open ended and absolute language.

Again, I do not think this is a good rule. As far as I am concerned, a (Human) should be a Human and an (Elf) should be an Elf. Nor do I consider this to be the RAI (which would most likely be that the Half-Human Elf is considered a Half-Elf for this purpose since they're just Half-Elves with a different upbringing, but that every other non-PHB subrace including the dragonblood subraces is only capable of bearing aberrant dragonmarks). But you asked me for a ruling and I gave you one based on my reading of the rules as they were written, including the admittedly ill-advised use of the word "identical."


I think this ongoing argument makes another failed Junkyard Wars round likely. Contestants aren't going to like having a potential FtQ ruling hanging over their heads, and judges won't want the hassle.Quite possible. Someone took up a good chunk of the last thread arguing with me over a ruling as well. It is of course possible that, seeing as this keeps happening, I'm getting rulings wrong (the last one was admittedly was a bit of a sticky "ask your DM" type situation where I had to make a judgment ruling, though I'm pretty certain that I'm right on this one, and still feel I had the stronger position in the last one), but if people are going to just make up their own minds about what the rules are, should be, or were intended to be, or whatever, then I'm not sure why they bothered asking me for a ruling as chair at all.

marphod
2015-07-28, 04:52 PM
Am I missing something? I don't get the point of this Junkyard war. The other Wars had required ingredients that begged for the forbidden ingredient; I don't see what Exotic Weapons have to do with most of the Dragonmarked Heir-like classes or most touchstones.

WhamBamSam
2015-07-28, 05:09 PM
Am I missing something? I don't get the point of this Junkyard war. The other Wars had required ingredients that begged for the forbidden ingredient; I don't see what Exotic Weapons have to do with most of the Dragonmarked Heir-like classes or most touchstones.I'll admit it was a sort of random spur of the moment decision. That said, using Catalogues of Enlightenment (War Domain) to pick up an EWP and Weapon Focus in one fell swoop is a relatively common usage of Planar Touchstone, so it's not entirely a dartboard round.

Anyway, if you have ideas for component combinations that you feel would make more sense, please nominate some.

Curmudgeon
2015-07-28, 08:36 PM
I'll admit it was a sort of random spur of the moment decision. That said, using Catalogues of Enlightenment (War Domain) to pick up an EWP and Weapon Focus in one fell swoop is a relatively common usage of Planar Touchstone, so it's not entirely a dartboard round.
Except War Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#warDomain) doesn't grant Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
Granted Power: Free Martial Weapon Proficiency with deity’s favored weapon (if necessary) and Weapon Focus with the deity’s favored weapon.
Maybe you're confusing the Cleric's War Domain granted power with the Favored Soul's automatic proficiency with their deity's favored weapon.

WhamBamSam
2015-07-28, 10:11 PM
I was under the impression that certain deities specified exotic proficiency, and it's come up in posts about Planar Touchstones in the past.

If necessary, I can change the banned component to Martial Weapons, no problem.

Curmudgeon
2015-07-28, 10:23 PM
I was under the impression that certain deities specified exotic proficiency, and it's come up in posts about Planar Touchstones in the past.
Deities have favored weapons in all three melee categories (simple, martial, exotic) and all three ranged categories as well. The War Domain's granted power doesn't make allowances for exotic weapons. (It doesn't make allowances for simple weapons either, but Clerics are the main beneficiaries of domains and they're proficient with all simple weapons.)

Excluding martial weapons would make the ingredient list more interesting.

marphod
2015-07-28, 11:12 PM
Excluding martial weapons would make the ingredient list more interesting.

I certainly agree with this, given that the No Exotics doesn't really have an impact on most of these builds. (Although that isn't much more of a restriction.) (Thematically, settling-based restrictions would seem to be appropriate (e.g. other than the Dragonmarked heir/equivalents, no setting-based PrCs).)

WhamBamSam
2015-07-28, 11:18 PM
Judges traditionally often look askance at cross setting material. If someone tries (say) something too specific to a non-Eberron setting (like a Faerun regional feat), I can expect it to get a slap on the wrist without my help.

I'll switch it to martial weapons then. Why not? It's a good forbidden component (even if the only real relation to the required components is that they encourage non-casters) where I had a somewhat weak one.

Sian
2015-08-05, 06:24 AM
Two Questions

Touchstone (From Sandstorm) mentions that you can replace it with either a touchstone from that book or from Planar handbook ... would it by that be acceptable to use it as a replacement feat for Planar touchstone in any way?

Secondly, how long does it take to retune yourself to a new touchstone (note that its mentioned that you get the basic ability no matter if you've been at the touchstone, only the higher-Order is dependent on such)

WhamBamSam
2015-08-05, 12:07 PM
Two Questions

Touchstone (From Sandstorm) mentions that you can replace it with either a touchstone from that book or from Planar handbook ... would it by that be acceptable to use it as a replacement feat for Planar touchstone in any way?Yes. Sandstorm Touchstones are mentioned in the OP.


Secondly, how long does it take to retune yourself to a new touchstone (note that its mentioned that you get the basic ability no matter if you've been at the touchstone, only the higher-Order is dependent on such)I don't see any mention of a general time requirement, so as long as you perform the recharge condition, it seems you should be able to leave and go about your business immediately afterward.

Sian
2015-08-06, 04:36 PM
Slightly less than halfway through ... built all my tables plugging in all my feats and the like ... ToDo list consist of Skillpoints, Fluffy bits, Breakdown and pinning down the Ability score

Sian
2015-08-09, 06:13 AM
Fluff to go ...

Out of interest ... how many entries as of yet?

WhamBamSam
2015-08-09, 11:05 AM
I haven't gotten any entries as of yet. Maybe I gave components that no one cared about, maybe someone else should be chair, maybe there are just too many IC spinoffs at the moment for the board to support them all. Or maybe I'll still get a few in the time right before the deadline.

sakuuya
2015-08-09, 11:20 AM
I was planning to judge this round so it wouldn't be caught in limbo again, but if you don't have any submissions yet...hmm.

Sian
2015-08-09, 03:38 PM
have to say that this round felt a bit dart-board'ish, with abilities that doesn't really mesh or have an obvious reason why one of them is banned. IMO the best thought out round would have been the pounce+small-Barbarian, or the Meldshaping+natural attacks-totemist. It might be because it simply is difficult to make good rounds, as its the variant that might demand most pre-contest thought, whereas Iron Chef and Zinc 'merely' is a question of finding an interesting SI to either use or emulate.

That said, just home from a party, so i'm bashing out the fluffy bits now

Brains to fried from the party, so i'm probably first finished after I've slept, in some 10-12 hours ...

WhamBamSam
2015-08-10, 08:48 PM
have to say that this round felt a bit dart-board'ish, with abilities that doesn't really mesh or have an obvious reason why one of them is banned. IMO the best thought out round would have been the pounce+small-Barbarian, or the Meldshaping+natural attacks-totemist. It might be because it simply is difficult to make good rounds, as its the variant that might demand most pre-contest thought, whereas Iron Chef and Zinc 'merely' is a question of finding an interesting SI to either use or emulate.

That said, just home from a party, so i'm bashing out the fluffy bits now

Brains to fried from the party, so i'm probably first finished after I've slept, in some 10-12 hours ...It was a little dart-boardish. Planar Touchstones and Dragonmarks just happen to be things I like. They didn't really seem to lend themselves directly to a banned component so I just sort of got drunk and picked one.

I've gotten just one entry. Is there anyone else thinking of submitting one? Does anyone have any ideas for a round that might be more popular, or better yet a desire to take over as chair?

Troacctid
2015-08-10, 09:17 PM
I'd be available to guest-chair at least a round or two.

Sian
2015-08-17, 04:14 PM
sooo... was there any other submissions? ... if not then post my build (i'm actually quite proud a few of the tricks i used), and lets move forward (under a new chair it sounds like?)

WhamBamSam
2015-08-17, 04:19 PM
Yeah, that's the way it's looking. Sorry the components didn't spark more interest. Hopefully the next chair will have more luck. Here's the one entry. Sian, running unopposed, gets the Gold this round.


Bogan d'Vadalis the Lawful Neutral Human Totemist 4 / Dragonmarked Heir 5 / Warshaper 2 / Kensai 9

http://i.imgur.com/Z65PsJw.jpg (http://www.deviantart.com/art/Lore-of-Steel-Totemist-164552216)


Bogan moved cautiously across the rugged terrain of the Demon Wastes heading a shipment of animals and other goods to one of the larger, more friendly, villages there, to far away for even Orien cavarans to go there. He had always had a bizarre liking of the rugged terrain of the region, but abhorred the Demonic populations and had sworn an oath to erradicate the demons, bringing the area under the lawful rule of a rural kingdom, prehaps under a son of his seventh cousin thrice removed who had married the Queen of Aundair and happened to be the brother of the Partiach of House Valadis. But really, the name of a protential ruler was less important than the fact that he wished for some kind of civil, lawful rule, that denied the demons these rugged wastelands, leaving it open for growth of natural forests and small peaceful communities. Even if he realisticly knew that unless anything changed in the attitude from the rulers of the neighbouring kingdoms, things wouldn't have changed noticebly a hundred years from now.

Leading the shipment was just another step in his ambition as it would supply both the farms surrounding the village with work animals, but more importantly, consisted of a number of Magebred horses for the local militia to help them defend against Demonic aggession, and a gift of good faith which he hoped would be communicated around so he would have an even easier time charming his way into acceptence from the more savage barbarian tribes in the area so he could start trading with them, slowly but surely pulling them into a more civilized mindset. It was going to be a long game, and it fought him at every step, but each step forward got him closer to the goal.



Ability
Base
4th
8th
11th
12th
16th
20th


Strength:
16
16
16
20
20
20
21


Dexerity:
14
15
16
16
17
18
18


Constitution:
14
14
14
18
18
18
18


Intelligence:
14
14
14
14
14
14
14


Wisdom:
8
8
8
8
8
8
8


Charisma:
12
12
12
12
12
12
12






Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Totemist 1
+0
+2
+2
+0
Concentration 4, Handle Animal 4, Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (The Planes) 4, Listen 4, Spot 4, Survival 4
Least Dragonmark of Handling, Favored in HouseB
Wild Empathy, Illiteracy


2nd
Totemist 2
+1
+3
+3
+0
Concentration 5, Handle Animal 5, Knowledge (Nature) 5, Knowledge (The Planes) 5, Listen 5, Spot 5, Survival 5

Totem Chakra Bind (+1 Capacity)


3rd
Totemist 3
+2
+3
+3
+1
Concentration 6, Handle Animal 6, Knowledge (Nature) 6, Knowledge (The Planes) 6, Listen 6, Spot 6, Survival 6
Combat Expertise
Totems Protection


4th
Totemist 4
+3
+4
+4
+1
Concentration 7, Handle Animal 7, Knowledge (Nature) 7, Knowledge (The Planes) 7, Listen 7, Spot 7, Survival 7




5th
Dragonmarked Heir 1
+3
+6
+6
+3
Knowledge (The Planes) 8 (cc), Diplomacy 2, Gather Infomation 1, Ride 1, Sense Motive 1
Lesser Dragonmark of HandlingB
Bonus Feat, House Status


6th
Dragonmarked Heir 2
+4
+7
+7
+4
Diplomacy 3, Gather Infomation 3, Ride 3, Sense Motive 3
Planar Touchstone (Were Glade)
Additional Action Points, Improved Least Dragonmark


7th
Dragonmarked Heir 3
+5
+7
+7
+4
Diplomacy 5, Gather Infomation 5, Ride 5, Sense Motive 4

Improved Lesser Dragonmark


8th
Dragonmarked Heir 4
+6
+8
+8
+5
Diplomacy 7, Gather Infomation 7, Sense Motive 7
Greater Dragonmark of HandlingB
Bonus Feat


9th
Dragonmarked Heir 5
+6
+8
+8
+5
Gather Infomation 12, Sense Motive 9
Weapon Focus (Spikes)
Improved Greater Dragonmark


10th
Warshaper 1
+6
+10
+8
+5
Balance 3, Concentration 9

Morphic Immunities, Mophic Weapons


11th
Warshaper 2
+7
+11
+8
+5
Balance 5, Concentration 12

Morphic Body


12th
Kensai 1
+7
+11
+8
+7
Diplomacy 13, Concentration 13
Feral Mark
Signature Weapon (Spikes)


13th
Kensai 2
+8
+11
+8
+8
Diplomacy 16, Concentration 16, Sense Motive 10

Power Surge


14th
Kensai 3
+9
+12
+9
+8
Diplomacy 17, Concentration 17, Sense Motive 15




15th
Kensai 4
+10
+12
+9
+9
Diplomacy 18, Concentration 18, Intimidate 2, Sense Motive 18
Bonus Essensia
Ki Projection


16th
Kensai 5
+10
+12
+9
+9
Diplomacy 19, Concentration 19, Intimidate 6, Sense Motive 19

Withstand


17th
Kensai 6
+11
+13
+10
+10
Diplomacy 20, Concentration 20, Intimidate 10, Sense Motive 20




18th
Kensai 7
+12
+13
+10
+10
Diplomacy 21, Concentration 21, Intimidate 14, Sense Motive 21
Planar Touchstone (Oxyrhynchus)



19th
Kensai 8
+13
+13
+10
+11
Diplomacy 22, Concentration 22, Intimidate 18, Sense Motive 22

Ki Projection, Instill


20th
Kensai 9
+13
+14
+11
+11
Diplomacy 23, Concentration 23, Intimidate 22, Sense Motive 23






Least Dragonmark of Handling: Charm Animal 3/day, Speak with Animals 1/Day, Caster Level 6
Lesser Dragonmark of Handling: Greater Magic Fang 2/day, Dominate Animal 1/day, Caster Level 11
Greater Dragonmark of Handling: Summon Natures Ally V 2/day, Caster Level 15




Level
Soulmelds
Essentia
Chakra Binds


1st
2
1
0


2nd
3
2
1


3rd
3
2
1


4th
4
3
1





Soulmeld
Type
Slot
Effect


Manticore Belt
Bound
Totem
+2 enhancement on Jump and Spot (+2/Essentia); Std Action, use Spikes (equal to Essentia), Ranged Attack 30ft range increment, within 30ft of each target, Full BAB for all attacks and 1d6+˝str damage


Beast Tamer Circlet
Shaped
Crown
+2 Insight on Handle Animal and Wild Empathy (+2/Essentia)


Basilisk Mask
Shaped
Brow
Low-light Vision (Darkvision 30ft/Essentia)


Sphinx Claws
Shaped
Hands
+1 Competence bonus on Strength Check and Strength-based Skill Checks (+1/Essentia)



Max Essentia in Manticore Belt is default in combat situations




Level
Weapon


12th
+1 Spikes


13th
+1 Distance Spikes


14th
+1 Distance, Seeking, Spikes


15th
+1 Distance, Seeking, Spikes


16th
+1 Distance, Seeking, Force, Spikes


17th
+1 Distance, Seeking, Force, Spikes


18th
+1 Distance, Seeking, Force, Collision, Spikes


19th
+1 Distance, Seeking, Force, Collision, Spikes


20th
+1 Distance, Seeking, Force, Collision, Holy, Spikes




Level 5:
While initially a fairly regular Manticore Belt Totemist (although with irregular feat choices), at 5th level I enter Dragonmark Heir (SI) and gain Lesser Dragonmark of Handling, which gives Greater Magic Fang as an SLA once a day with an CL of 7, meaning that it gives +1 Enhancement Bonus to all my Spike attacks for 7 hours.

Level 10:
Lots of SI around here, starting with grabbing Planar Touchstone for Were Glade, which gives bonuses to interacting with animals, and just as importantly giving me Shapechanger subtype which is later used to enter Warshaper. Meanwhile my Greater magic fang improves to 2/day at CL 11, giving +2 Enhancement bonus for 11 hours, and i gain Dominate Animal 1/day and Summon Natures Ally 2/day. when done with Dragonmarked Heir, I enter Warshaper, gaining complete crit immunity, and slightly stronger weapons.

Level 15:
Second level of Warshaper and then its Kensai from here on out, making my Spikes as competent as possible, starting with making it more plausible to hit (by getting a larger range and ignoring concealment). As for feats, i'm taking Feral Mark through which i can start throwing some of my Greater Magic Fang (now that they're much less useful as my spikes are buffed by Kensai enhancement), giving me +4 Strength and +4 Dexterity (buffing my attack and Damage) for 1/hour per use, as its enhancement though the money i'd save by not having to go out buying Belt of Giant Strength / Gloves of Dexterity, can be used for something else. Secondly i'm grabbing Bonus Essentia to stack up on the number of Spikes that i can fire off per round. Furthermore i can Power Surge for another +8 Strength

Level 20:
More Kensai making my Spikes much more damaging though Force (ignore DR), Collision (+5 per Spike) and Holy (as i'm excepting to primarily go against evil creatures), and also Ki Projection for boosting my Charismatic abilities. Lastly i grab another Planar Touchstone for Oxyrhynchus, which gives me another attack when my opponent is flat-footed, and the ability to trigger its Higher-order giving me even more damage (note that Consumptive is updated in MIC to d8, instead of d6 as descriped in the blurb).


Primary reason why i'm picking Human instead of Azurin is that I lean towards believing that Players Guide to Eberron bans everything except for PHB races from getting regular Dragonmarks, although Azurin would only be quantifiably better in combat situations at levels 12-14 (both inclusive) as I at those levels wouldn't have enough Essentia to max out Manticore belt.

Due to gaining (Shapechanger) Subtype at Lvl 6, when visiting Were Glade, gaining Higher-Order uses (even after i used them) of the touchstone, I'm proficient with Natural weapons, and qualifies for Warshaper

Spikes is a valid target for Weapon Focus, see Manticore in MM1, which are statted as having Weapon Focus (Spikes).




Source
Material Used


Eberron Campaign Setting
Dragonmarked Heir, Dragonmark of Handling


Eberron: Dragonmarked
Feral Mark


Planar Handbook
Planar Touchstone, Were Glade, Oxyrhynchus


Magic of Incarnum
Totemist, Bonus Essensia


Magic Item Compendium
Collision, Force


SRD
Distance, Seeking


Complete Warrior
Kensai, Warshaper

Sian
2015-08-17, 04:42 PM
would really like someone to critique my build

Troacctid
2015-08-21, 04:59 PM
Originality: 3
The Manticore Belt Totemist/Kensai isn't exactly cliche, but it's not a new idea either. The addition of Warshaper is unconventional, but it doesn't add much to the core concept, so meh. Average score.

Elegance: 2
The fact that you spent two class levels on Warshaper despite not having any means to transform aside from your higher-order uses of the Were Glade touchstone is a big strike against you. Warshaper abilities only work while transformed. Unless you're going back to recharge it every two days--and you have no native ability to planeshift to do so--those abilities simply won't function most of the time.

You're also reliant on the interpretation of Manticore Belt as being a natural weapon, which I know is contested, so that's a little shaky too.

Power: 3
I think you successfully made it to an upper-T4 level, which is what I'm looking for in a 3.

Use of Ingredients: 2
You don't really do anything with your dragonmark. Yeah, Bogan has a good Handle Animal check, but he doesn't use it for anything except as part of his backstory. And none of the spell-like abilities are used to especially good effect either. You have Feral Mark, but since it doesn't stack with enhancement bonuses from magic items, it's extremely underwhelming.

As for the touchstones, you use Were Glade to gain the shapechanger subtype, but as previously mentioned, you don't make good use of Warshaper, which is the only way you have of capitalizing on it. Oxyrynchus gives you a decent minor benefit, but it comes so late in the build that it feels more like an afterthought if anything.

Total: 10
I would have liked to see you get more use out of Handle Animal. You put a lot of resources into boosting the check, and then never bothered to meaningfully incorporate it into the character's strategy.

Sian
2015-08-22, 04:31 AM
Elegance: 2
The fact that you spent two class levels on Warshaper despite not having any means to transform aside from your higher-order uses of the Were Glade touchstone is a big strike against you. Warshaper abilities only work while transformed. Unless you're going back to recharge it every two days--and you have no native ability to planeshift to do so--those abilities simply won't function most of the time.

yeah ... kinda got lost in the idea that 'hey, i get permanent shapechanger subtype, wonder want i can use it for' that i completely missed that you'd have to actually be in an alternate form for Warshaper abilities, instead of merely being able to get an alternate form, for it to actually work.

Sian
2015-08-23, 02:55 PM
anyhows ... who's going to open XIII? ...