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View Full Version : To kill..... or not to kill...



AkumaWolf
2007-05-03, 03:12 PM
Me and my friend are both DM's... and some days we would get into deep discussions on how to improve some aspects our campaigns may be lacking.

One that usually seems to pop up is.... how to handle the death of a player...

Part of the fault goes to both me and my friend.... we just don't have the heart to kill a player... there would always be 'something' saving their necks... anything from random wizards teleporting in to throw a couple of fireballs, to Orcs who doesn't feel in the mood to coup da grace when every bodies out cold.
The problem with this is.... the PC's doesn't have that fear of death... they will charge into any situation , cause they know we won't kill them so easily...

But then again.... if we kill them......
Probably the biggest problem we face with that is... boredom the player faces who just died...
If you don't have a high level cleric in your party... it becomes a problem... even when someone becomes unconscious during battle, they become bored pretty fast... and the hassle of resurrection would just make it unenjoyable to them altogether.

Now I know what your thinking... a CR is there for a reason... if they a had just used their heads... then they wouldn't have died in the first place... losing a level and sitting it out for awhile is punishment enough... right...

Well... to some degree... yes....

But still... sometimes there's that 1st level character that croaks... and they don't have the money or time to resurrect a fallen comrade...


Basically... we're at a standstill...

Either we keep the PC's alive from behind the curtains to avoid boredom....

Or we let them die to bring back that fear of death...


Any suggestions?

Pink
2007-05-03, 03:19 PM
Well, I would think that in the case of them not being able to res or save the character, you let them roll up a new one. There should generally be some fear of death to the game, that's part of what makes battles fun.

In the case where they've done something stupid and they can get revived, well, they screwed up, they'll take a penalty and recover quickly enough because they'll be gaining more exp than the rest of the party as well.

Townopolis
2007-05-03, 03:19 PM
This could be an extreme reaction, but -10 HP is there so that characters dying mid-combat is rare, and people usually only die when the party actually loses. So, it may just be a matter of to TPK or not. If the party just charges in and gets owned by orcs, well, roll up a new group of level 1s. If the fighter, rogue, and cleric are down, but the wizard fends off the last orc with his last Ray of Frost spell, then let him drag his comrades back to camp and let them auto-stabilize (no check needed) by default, 1 week later the party's back on track.

Basically, nobody has to sit around waiting for someone to buy them a rez, but the players can't just charge heedlessly into any old dungeon.

Doesn't work with parties who love rerolling level 1 characters though.

Inyssius Tor
2007-05-03, 03:25 PM
One DM I had once never killed anyone, because he had very few players. We all just got bored of him thinking up stupid deus-ex-machina to save us (wizards throwing fireballs, sudden changes of heart, the Hammer of God) and quit playing. One player stayed longer than the others, and he had fun making a totally pacifist Druid ("I hug it!").

MeklorIlavator
2007-05-03, 03:27 PM
Well, if resurrection is unavailable, just have the player make a new character, then integrate him somehow. If the party is in a dungeon, just have the character be a prisoner(or trapped in a non lethal trap), and when the party finds him, have everyone get to know each other, then off you go.

Make sure you don't pick on a player unless he's really messing around, though, because then the players will start to complain about bias(if he is messing around, though, they'll most likely thank you for taking care of the problem).

Meschaelene
2007-05-03, 05:36 PM
Honestly, I quietly encourage my group to PK each other... It makes my job so much easier.

:)



About one third of the deaths in my group are at the hands of other party members, half are through poor rolls or poor playing, and the remaining sixth are the "heroic deaths" -- like Sturm facing down Kitiara...

...and raising Sturm after his heroic death would just be terrible story!

silentknight
2007-05-03, 05:44 PM
If a party, or a single character, earns death then they die. If it does come to a TPK, I'll ask them if they want to continue playing in that campaign. If so, then I'll figure out some way to save them, or let them make new characters, whatever they want.

Runeclaw
2007-05-03, 05:59 PM
Well, so far everyone has either missed this or passed it up, so I can't resist . . .


One that usually seems to pop up is.... how to handle the death of a player...?

Depends on if it happens durring a session or not. If at a session, probably is best to call 911. If between sessions, it is probably appropriate to cancel your next session if it conflicts with the funeral service.


Part of the fault goes to both me and my friend.... we just don't have the heart to kill a player...

That's probably for the best. No matter how aggravating they may, the legal hassles are rarely worth it.

PMDM
2007-05-03, 06:03 PM
What about small penelties? Like curses, or stolen items??

lsfreak
2007-05-03, 06:04 PM
English language ftl, Runeclaw? :P

If the death if the fault of the DM - giving too hard an encounter and such - then save them. If the fault of chance - a few very unlucky dice rolls - fudge a bit for them. If you designed an encounter to be beatable, know how it could be beatable, and the players really mess it up, let them die.

Hypothetical
2007-05-03, 06:14 PM
Well, so far everyone has either missed this or passed it up, so I can't resist . . .



Depends on if it happens durring a session or not. If at a session, probably is best to call 911. If between sessions, it is probably appropriate to cancel your next session if it conflicts with the funeral service.



That's probably for the best. No matter how aggravating they may, the legal hassles are rarely worth it.


And I thought I was a smart a$$.

magicwalker
2007-05-03, 06:43 PM
If there is no penalty for fudge-ups, then there should be no rewards for good play. Rounding the edges might make it player-friendly, but it also makes it player-boring. Actions need to have both negative and positive consequences.

brian c
2007-05-03, 06:48 PM
Well, so far everyone has either missed this or passed it up, so I can't resist . . .



Depends on if it happens durring a session or not. If at a session, probably is best to call 911. If between sessions, it is probably appropriate to cancel your next session if it conflicts with the funeral service.

Well... you're probably all going to the funeral... so if you'll all be in the same place anyway, what better way to remember a friend?

martyboy74
2007-05-03, 07:52 PM
A bit more...reverently?

Tallis
2007-05-03, 08:06 PM
Make the power of the major enemies clear to the players. Let them know that they are taking a risk. Then, if they do stupid things let them die. Once they get used to the idea that they can die you can start springing surprises on them (oops, your enemy is more powerful than you thought. What do you do now?)
To alleviate the boredom have some NPCs arround that the players can use until they are rezzed or roll up new characters.

Diggorian
2007-05-03, 09:31 PM
Basically... we're at a standstill...

Either we keep the PC's alive from behind the curtains to avoid boredom....

Or we let them die to bring back that fear of death...

Playing in a world made of nerf is gonna increase boredom greater I think. Without the risk of death there's no real heroism. Even if you do only capture them, atleast make some equipment unrecoverable. Success yields treasure, so failure should entail lose.

Dont be heartless though. I houserule that you gotta be negative your Con score in hps before dead. Unfortunate circumstance, maybe ask for a save or check you dont need to by rules to avoid it. Failed Balance gets a Reflex save to grab hold of something; that fails, give adjacents allies a Dex check to catch'em.

It helps to describe every encounter as though it's deadly, so they never underestimate challenges (even ones that are actually low CR) nor take their PC lives for granted.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-03, 09:59 PM
Stuff like revenance and (psionic) revivify can keep people in the fight when they died if you allow them. Revenance is particularly good in this respect since it has no expensive material component, so you can buy scrolls (or a non fully charged wand if you allow that) relatively cheap. It also doesn't remove the cost of death, it simply allows you to keep on fighting a little longer.

Dark
2007-05-04, 04:12 AM
I don't know if this works in D&D 3.x, but in my campaign most PCs had henchmen and other hangers-on that were a couple of levels lower. If a PC died then the player would just play one of those for a while. It can be a nice change of pace.

In some cases, the henchmen became permanent characters this way :)

lord_khaine
2007-05-04, 05:04 AM
seriously, your players need to get the fear of death back, or well at least the knowledge that there is no deus ex machina to save them.

if someones char dies then he can spend the time making a new char, while you plan for how to get him back into the group.
of course, you proberly should warn them that the gloves are off before you start killing them.

Haedrian
2007-05-04, 05:22 AM
Solution:

Don't kill them, instead knock them unconcious, then they wake up in some slave camp, or orc camp, or in some dungeon, and thats more frustrating ;)

Dizlag
2007-05-04, 07:10 AM
I suggest get used to the fact that characters die in the game. If no one looses a character, then the fear is gone. The situation you're in now. So, start a new campaign and have your players roll up two completely different character concepts. One will be their primary character, the other is a back up.

I allow a player to bring in a new character upon character death (or if they just want to play a different one) at one level lower than the lowest level character, but at the same point into the level of the lowest level party member. For example, if the lowest level character is 3/4 of the way to 3rd level, then new characters can be brought in at 3/4 of the way to 2nd level. Lower level characters will earn more XP than higher level characters and will eventually catch up to the rest of the party.

You've got to get the fear back into the players and kill a couple characters. ;-) They shouldn't be bored upon their character's death because they'll need to get the backup character ready or roll up a new one. If it's mid-adventure, the party could retreat back to a town for resurrection or recruitment. Granted, the player will be sitting around for a little while bored but that's the price for dying in a campaign. By the end of the night or beginning of next session, they'll be back in the game.

Just to let you know that I DM for my wife and 5 others. She's on her 3rd character in this campaign. Her first was a ninja who got munched by a Gray Render (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grayRender.htm). Her second was a halfling rogue who got splatted by hill giant monks hurling rocks. And her recent character, an elf warmage, was brought down to -8 HPs by a huge blue dragon. The cleric healed her up enough, but he made the mistake of standing at the edge of a 300' cliff. Needless to say, he was splortched by the fall ... actually, it wasn't the fall that killed him, it was the sudden stop at the end. Hehehehe

Dizlag

Mellchia
2007-05-04, 09:03 AM
For a long time as a DM I would try to avoid PC death. But as everyone here highlighted, PC's tend to do more and more stupid things and I was awarding them for it.

Eventually it pissed me off just enough that all 4 characters went off and did stupid things at once (starting fights with people they should not start, trying to uncover secrets that should not be found)... that they died. All of them. They were pissed, rolled up new characters...

And died again. From stupid actions.

We quit the campaign because of their stupidity and the next campaign I ran they were slightly more cautious...only some of them died due to stupid actions.

I'm not cruel or heartless. My dice hate PC's (I tend to roll very well with opponents) so I will avert the higher above instant death/huge crits from time to time. But sending forth an NPC or a character to save their butts from their own idiocracy? I've learned to stop that.

Once PC death is acceptable to a GM, you find that the options for a campaign suddenly become greater...like purposefully killing a PC for a plot twist. Nothing gets the other PC's more fuming at the BBEG when he kills their friend. And you can manipulate that emotion to bring into game.

An unintentional death of my own PC in an EPIC campaign caused a whole bunch of NPC nobles to rally to war and pledged their lives to our mentor(s). That and my friends were terribly upset (they liked my character).

Whatever you decide to do, have fun!

Matthew
2007-05-04, 10:24 PM
I don't know if this works in D&D 3.x, but in my campaign most PCs had henchmen and other hangers-on that were a couple of levels lower. If a PC died then the player would just play one of those for a while. It can be a nice change of pace.

In some cases, the henchmen became permanent characters this way :)
Yes, that was a much better way of handling things, but as with so many aspects of D&D 3.x this is now handled by a Feat called Leadership, which is only avaialble at Level X. Four Man parties are obviously vulnerable to the 'no death' problem, parties with a larger Player to Character ratio can absorb deaths without harming the game too much.

EagleWiz
2007-05-05, 07:43 AM
TPK em once and you probably wont have to do it again untill someone says "I hug it!"

TRM
2007-05-05, 07:54 AM
Death is annoying.

Backup characters are really very helpful. If the main PC dies then you can introduce the secondary character to the party, and they also double as characters that can be used in a one-shot to save time (for me at least having extra characters lying around can be session saving).

Unconciousness is a different problem, when you're unconcious you are no longer part of the battle…but neither can you start rolling up a new character to pass the time.


Don't kill them, instead knock them unconcious, then they wake up in some slave camp, or orc camp, or in some dungeon, and thats more frustrating ;)
Without their gear! :smallfurious:

Killing characters (i find) is necessary to maintain the submersion in the fantasy realm (which-for me-is what RPGs are all about)…but don't just kill people randomly ("A bolt of lighting comes out of the sky and kills you." "Uh...why?" "I want to help you guys remain immersed in the role-playing experience"), only if they actually do something stupid, or are simply beaten fairly.

two cents.

Jannex
2007-05-05, 08:25 AM
I tend to find that death through random bad luck and poor die rolls is pointless, very much not fun, and not in keeping with the heroic fantasy genre. If I've put a lot of thought and effort into my character's personality and backstory, I don't suddenly want him to be dead just because my d20 felt like rolling 1's tonight. Massive player stupidity, however, should definitely be punishable by death--usually of the character. :smallwink:

martyboy74
2007-05-05, 08:34 AM
...I don't suddenly want him to be dead just because my d20 felt like rolling 1's tonight. Massive player stupidity, however, should definitely be punishable by death--usually of the character. :smallwink:

I think that sticking with a die that's rolling natural ones that much is massive player stupidity. :smalltongue: