What is the absolute minimum amount of Con can a melee get away with?

[Masakan]

Title I need to know what I can get away with for a melee character realisticly.
I've been going with the notion that a melee character would have as low as 14 con
But could I get away with as low as 12

[Crake]

The minimum would be the maximum you can achieve before it begins to significantly impact your build.

Either that or get initiate of the faerie mysteries and dump con, but buff int.

[Masakan]

The minimum would be the maximum you can achieve before it begins to significantly impact your build.

Either that or get initiate of the faerie mysteries and dump con, but buff int.

As sweet as that feat is in my experience most dms dont allow dragon magazine

[Extra Anchovies]

Faerie Mysteries Initiate is a dragmag feat that lets you use Int instead of Con for determining HP.

Dry Lich gets Cha to HP, but is only accessible through 10 levels of Walker in the Waste, so it comes online a bit late.

A number of undead in MM3 have Unholy Toughness, which is an (Ex) ability that provides Cha to HP. There's a number of ways that (Ex) abilities from monsters can be added to a PC.

None of those solve the issue of Con applying to Fortitude saves, but Exemplar 4 gets Cha to Fortitude saves, and you could always pick up Divine Grace. However, you could always just be Necropolitan and gain immunity to most effects that allow Fortitude saves, and dip a level of Warblade to pick up Mind Over Body for things that still affect objects.

[AvatarVecna]

It depends on what you're asking. For general play? I'd say that nimble dodger types (who survive by not getting hit/affected) can get by with 10-14, with 12 being decent; similarly, a good tank (who survives by having too many resources that need draining to take him out) should have at least Con 14 if their HP is still based on Con, and they're better off having it be higher (I'd probably say 16, but it's hard to always get scores that high).

For optimized play? No amount of Constitution or HP can compare to immunity to Fort saves and HP damage.

[ShaneMRoth]

...
Dry Lich gets Cha to HP, but is only accessible through 10 levels of Walker in the Waste, so it comes online a bit late.

A number of undead in MM3 have Unholy Toughness, which is an (Ex) ability that provides Cha to HP. There's a number of ways that (Ex) abilities from monsters can be added to a PC.



An undead PC is an intriguing way to use Con as a dump stat, since Undead have a Con of zero.

Other than that, it is impossible to overstate the importance of hit points.

Regardless of character concept, I doubt I would ever set a Con score below 12. One hit point can mean the difference between life or death in any combat encounter.

And for melee characters, I would recommend a Con of at least 14.

You need hit points.

[Crake]

An undead PC is an intriguing way to use Con as a dump stat, since Undead have a Con of zero.

Worth clarifying that undead do not actually have a con of 0 (which comes with a -5 modifier) but rather lack a con score altogether (which is why it's con --) which carries a modifier of +0. This is important to note, because undead have pretty mediocre fortitude saves as is, and the few spells that require a fortitude save and the undead DOES need to save against (such as disintegrate), that 5 point difference can be huge.

Also, con -- comes with some other effects such as being unable to tire and not having a metabolism etc etc.

[ShaneMRoth]

Worth clarifying that undead do not actually have a con of 0 (which comes with a -5 modifier) but rather lack a con score altogether (which is why it's con --) which carries a modifier of +0. This is important to note, because undead have pretty mediocre fortitude saves as is, and the few spells that require a fortitude save and the undead DOES need to save against (such as disintegrate), that 5 point difference can be huge.

Also, con -- comes with some other effects such as being unable to tire and not having a metabolism etc etc.

Good points those... also...


A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless.

[Rubik]

Feel free to combine Faerie Mysteries Initiate (+Int to hp instead of +Con) with Keen Intellect (+Int to Will saves and lots of skills) and Wedded to History [Survivor] (substitute Will save for Fort and Ref saves at a cumulative penalty to Will saves for the rest of the day). Then boost your Will save as high as you can.

[Geddy2112]

12 is perfectly fine for a melee character con. Higher con is always welcome, but not required. Most melee characters have armor, good hit die and fortitude saves. The +1HP per level and 1 to fort saves should be sufficient. I would say that wisdom is a more important stat as most melee characters have poor will saves. At higher levels, most melee characters can survive fort based saves, even if they fail. A failed will save is certain death, particularly at higher levels.

[Vhaidara]

I try not to run a character with below a 14, no matter what they're doing. But I was traumatized by a game where I reached level 12 as a scout and only had 35 hp because of bad rolls.

The lowest I've run was an 8, but that character had plans to become a vampire (in pathfinder, so I would also have Cha to hp).

[RolkFlameraven]

It really depends. If you are playing with a D12 class (Barb, Warblade, Warder) a 12 or even a 10 could be enough as Rage is rage and the Warblade/Wader are ToB/PoW classes and have counters and such.

D10 classes should have a 14+ unless you are Crusader/Warlord as, again, you have counter that could keep you alive with a 12.

D8 classes need a 14+ if they are truly going to mix it up in melee. Most of those classes are in light armor to start with and will need that extra HP buffer to say on their feet at lower levels.

Pathfinder can give an extra HP per level and that can have an effect on your CON score as well allowing you to be 2 lower then you normally would want to be while skill netting the HP.

Now I would only do this if I rolled some really bad stats or was using a rather low point buy (but I would most likely just go caster if that was the case)

[Deadline]

Good points those... also...

You bolded the wrong part of that sentence ShaneMRoth. There are a few spells that require Fort saves that the undead are not immune to. (Those that also work on objects or are harmless) Disintegrate (being a spell requiring a fort save that also works on objects) is one of them.

OP, depending on other things like DR, Energy resistance, miss chance, AC, etc., you may be able to get away with lesser amounts of CON. Your instincts are good though, 14 is probably the least you want to go with unless you have some other method of damage mitigation.

[Flickerdart]

It really depends. If you are playing with a D12 class (Barb, Warblade, Warder) a 12 or even a 10 could be enough as Rage is rage and the Warblade/Wader are ToB/PoW classes and have counters and such.
"Rage is rage" works against you, not for you - as soon as it expires, all of those tasty HPs disappear and then you die.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I try to get a 14 at the very least on all my characters, but I'm willing to go to 12 if I have to (a limited point buy for example).

[OldTrees1]

I think a d10(or 5.5hp per level) is a good minimum. So normally I only put my excess points in Con.

[Yukitsu]

Lowest I've ever been willing to go on a melee is 12. It worked out well enough in that I never did die in that one.

[Hecuba]

Title I need to know what I can get away with for a melee character realisticly.
I've been going with the notion that a melee character would have as low as 14 con
But could I get away with as low as 12


That depends: how often are you comfortable with your character dying as a function of number of CR-at-level encounters?

[OldTrees1]

That depends: how often are you comfortable with your character dying as a function of number of CR at level encounters?

Would you post answers for 5%, 15%, and 25%?(I presume posting % as a function of Con & level would be easier though)

[SinsI]

I'm sure AC-optimized Crusader can have a CON penalty...

[Masakan]

That depends: how often are you comfortable with your character dying as a function of number of CR-at-level encounters?

Ok Screw you too then.

[LoyalPaladin]

It's probably class dependent. I try not to go lower than 14, myself. But I'm sure some classes can get away with 10.


I'm sure AC-optimized Crusader can have a CON penalty...
This wouldn't surprise me at all.

[OldTrees1]

I'm sure AC-optimized Crusader can have a CON penalty...

Depends on how the optimized AC compares to the attack bonuses they are facing(the difference changes as the Crusader levels up), however at low levels you are certainly right. Low level sword and board Crusaders are painful to try to hit (recently had +5 attack bonuses going up against an AC of 23).

[Curmudgeon]

I've managed fine with d6 HD and 8 CON. I had Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight and a very high Hide modifier, so I was almost never targeted. As soon as you can reliably succeed to Hide while attacking (-20 penalty) checks, you're fine in melee.

[Masakan]

I've managed fine with d6 HD and 8 CON. I had Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight and a very high Hide modifier, so I was almost never targeted. As soon as you can reliably succeed to Hide while attacking (-20 penalty) checks, you're fine in melee.
Of Course If your DM Decided to be a **** and not allow darkstalker, Your kinda screwed no matter how high your Hide check is.

[Flickerdart]

Of Course If your DM Decided to be a **** and not allow darkstalker, Your kinda screwed no matter how high your Hide check is.
Even Darkstalker isn't immune to discovery, though. The DM can always screw over stealthy types if he wants to, but then again that goes for pretty much any character.

[Hecuba]

Ok Screw you too then.

It wasn't intended as any kind of insult. Sorry if it came off that way.
The game is inherently probabilistic: if you are comfortable with your character dying to 2σ events, then the answer is far different than if you are only willing to see them die at 3σ events.

The answer also changes depending on your comfort with the character being down and unconscious but not dead: that 10 HP swing is actually quite significant.


Would you post answers for 5%, 15%, and 25%?(I presume posting % as a function of Con & level would be easier though)

5%, 15%, and 25%?

25%

[...] You're comfortable with your character dying in 1 out of every 4 encounters?
At that point, you have effectively entered the range of unmitigated rocket tag.

If you have a 4 character party facing an equal level opponent, 25% lethality for your character is worse than averaging 1-turn kill for each side because it doesn't account for the possibility of a PC winning initiative.

At that range -- and really, even at 15% -- you can dump Con all you like.
A game that is that lethal with that regularity implies that any attack that lands is lethal.
In turn, that implies that the attack vectors are either not hp related (in which case you should be looking at saves), or the presumed damage totals are high enough that they will trivially surpass any reasonable HP total (ex.: uber-chargers, in which case you should be looking at miss chance or action denial).

I find 5% is still really high for most people.

It is however, relatively close to what you get if you pay no attention to optimization or pumping CON.
It comes out to about a PC death every 5 encounters or so.

Consider the following (oversimplified) assumptions:

The thing taking yoru HP is a bog standard SA rogue with a level-appropriate +X long sword and good strength.
The enemy is equally likely to attack you or 1 of your 3 allies.
The encounter lasts 1 round (if it lasts longer than that, its likely because of lower lethality, not higher).
You have d8 hit die with maxed at 1st level and average thereafter.
The enemy makes all their attack rolls

If you goal is literally just to live 95% of the time, then you're looking at a 20% chance of dying if damaged.

For these constraints, our theoretical rogue isn't actually going to be able to kill you unless you have a Con penalty (or if they crit).
He can get you down and bleeding, certainly.
But if you have even a 0 Con mod, actually killing you is at or near max damage for most levels (something that is, at worst, 1 2% probability at 1st level).

Obviously, if the rogue starts to optimize, it becomes easier for them to kill you. There are much better things to take than a +X weapon and he should probably have craven if he's a PC. Moreover, there a plenty of things that can be made more HP lethal than a rogue.

I use the rogue example because at most levels, its Max damage tracks very well the average health pool of a d8 class with Con 10.
That makes it a decent baseline, and also a good mental target for deciding what I can expect a rogue PC to reliably kill at a given level.

And it gets you to the general idea: if you're fine with a 5% death rate for your character, you don't have to do much other than match the general optimization of the table.

P.S.: It's worth noting that - under these constraints - the difference between d6 and d8 is about a +1 Con mod.

[OldTrees1]

[...] You're comfortable with your character dying in 1 out of every 4 encounters?
At that point, you have effectively entered the range of unmitigated rocket tag.
No, but throwing out 3 values gets better answers than throwing out 2 or 4 values.



If you goal is literally just to live 95% of the time, then you're looking at a 20% chance of dying if damaged.
-snip-

I use the rogue example because at most levels, its Max damage tracks very well the average health pool of a d8 class with Con 10.
That makes it a decent baseline, and also a good mental target for deciding what I can expect a rogue PC to reliably kill at a given level.

And it gets you to the general idea: if you're fine with a 5% death rate for your character, you don't have to do much other than match the general optimization of the table.

So it sounds like a d8 Con 10 (or a d8/HD) is fine for a 5% but for smaller percentages one would want to increase Con/die size.

Sounds like my choice of d10/HD(d6+2, d8+1, d12-1) was a good baseline for myself.

[Ravens_cry]

"Rage is rage" works against you, not for you - as soon as it expires, all of those tasty HPs disappear and then you die.
I know this is a houserule, but my DM lets rage HP count as temp HP. Makes Barbs a heck of a lot more survivable.

[RolkFlameraven]

I know this is a houserule, but my DM lets rage HP count as temp HP. Makes Barbs a heck of a lot more survivable.

UnBarb gets this normally in pathfinder, but his damage is a little lower as its no longer a STR Buff and just flat extra damage.

The thing about Rage is that although its normal HP, its normal HP. While you CAN die if you take enough one would hope your teammates would slap you with a healing belt or something before that happens. I've seen the main Barb in my group running on Rage HP a few times, and we only got to him when he had one round left once, good times.

The big downside to having a low CON with a Barb isn't the chance of death by rage ending, its how few rounds of rage you have 5 with a 10 con isn't a lot of time if there are more then a handful of enemies with brains.

Again I wouldn't ever recommend having a 10 or 12 con with a Barb but if you HAD too you could get away with it, so long as you roll well on that D12.