The Good, the Bad and the Monk, a 5e Monk guide

[PoeticDwarf]

The Good the Bad and the Monk, a 5e Monk guide
I'm not going to explain why you would play a monk, or what the role of a monk is. This is just about the choices for a monk, and made for people who already decided that they're going to play a monk.

http://i.imgur.com/GZa859U.jpg

1. Colors
2. Stats
3. Backgrounds
4. Features
5. Monastic Traditions
6. Multiclassing


Gold This is perfect, the best choice in almost every build
Sky blue This is very good to have, also nice for most builds
Blue Solid choice, it's maybe not the best but it's not bad
Black This is decent, it's not optimal but you’re not hindering your character picking this.
Purple Maybe sometimes useful, but very often you're wasting valuable character growth.
Red Just nope. There’s either something strictly better or it’s a downright awful pick.


STR As Monk you're often in melee, and athletics is nice, but you don't really need it
DEX Your most important stat, for AC, damage rolls and attack rolls
CON Hit points and constitution saving throws are both important, but constitution is for a monk less important than wisdom or dexterity, don't overrate it.
INT The dump stat in 5e, maybe you want it higher than strength but if you have a wizard or other high int character there's no reason for that.
WIS Very important for AC and DCs, it has to reach 18 or 20 at higher levels.
CHA Nice for skill checks, if you have two or more people with high charisma in your party, this even becomes RED


Hilldwarf Put a 14 in CON and never look back. +1 wisdom is also very nice. If you begin at higher levels this becomes sky blue, but you really need a DEX of 16.
Moutaindwarf +2 constitution and +2 strength isn't that bad, but with low wisdom and dexterity you won't be a really good monk.
High elf At least you have the dexterity bonus, features like trance aren't bad
Wood elf +2 Dex and +1 Wis, oh yeah, extra speed is nice. In addition, the basic elf features and Mask of the Wild which is very useful.
Drow A high elf with sunlight sensitivity.
Stout halfling Good bonuses, lucky, brave. The low speed becomes less of a problem later.
Lightfoot halfling Close to blue, you have all the nice halfling features and +2 dex, but you're not way better than a high elf.
Human Boring but useful, you can have 16 dex, 16 wis, 14 con at first level and you don't have to dump the other stats that hard.
Variant human 16 dexterity, 16 wisdom and a feat... A perfect race, as monks are pretty MAD andyou need every ASI in wisdom or dexterity (maybe one in CON), now you can also have a feat. Your best option.
Dragonborn You have a breath weapon and a resistance, that's all.
Rock gnome As I said before, dexterity and wisdom are very important for monks. The spell advantage is nice but not enough to warrant picking this race.
Forest gnome With +1 dex, you can have a solid monk. This is almost blue, and you still have the spell advantage.
Half-elf The +1 wisdom and +1 dexterity are nice. Half-elf is a good choice for everybody. Close to blue, but it's still just decent.
Half-orc +1 constitution and some other features. Not red but not even close to black.
Tiefling Useless ability bonuses and magic reliant on your dump stat.
Elemental evil:
Aarakocra Flying speed, Dexterity, wisdom, this is sky blue and nothing less.
Deep Gnome Not that different from forest gnomes.
Air genasi Not bad, this is good for most monks, and it's the only genasi with a DEX bonus.
Earth genasi A sneaky mountain dwarf.
Fire genasi Inteligence is your dump stat, don't take this subrace.
Water genasi The constitution and wisdom bonuses make up for your lack of dexterity. This becomes blue if you start at a higher level.
Goliath A bad half-orc. Don't take it.


Acolyte Typical monk proficiencies but religion isn't a great skill, insight is still useful.
Charlatan You don't need sleight of hand or deception.
Criminal Stealth is very useful and makes this way better than charlatan. The tool proficiencies, however, aren't that good.
Entertainer Acrobatics is nice, disguise kit isn't bad either. However, performance and an instrument aren't what you need.
Folk hero Two wisdom skills and average tool proficiencies, close to blue.
Guild artisan You don't need persuasion, but all other things this gives you are good to have.
Hermit Typical monk, medicine and the discovery feature are both useful.
Noble History, Persuasion, a gaming set? Not what you're looking for.
Outlander Everyone likes athletics, and I'm sure you'll find some uses for Survival. A good feature and decent equipment make this a good choice.
Sage Even worse than noble.
Sailor Great skills and a great feature. The best background for most classes, and that includes monk.
Soldier Decent. Not a lot more to say here.
Urchin The skills might not be required often, but at least they use dexterity. If your party lacks a rogue, consider this.

Unarmored defense You can't use armor or shields, so this is a great thing to have. Not gold because a level in barbarian/dragon sorcerer would give you about the same.
Martial arts The reason you are a monk.
Ki Without this, you are a fighter with bad damage output. With it, you are a monk.
Unarmored movement Improved mobility. Not a lot else to say.
Deflect missiles This will only apply in certain situations, but when it does you'll be thankful you have it.
Ability score improvement Monks are MAD, so ASI's are good.
Slow fall Sometimes, this will safe your life. Other times, you forget all about it. In my opinion, it is more useful than deflect missiles, but still close to black
Extra attack As expected for a martial class.
Stunning strike Stunning can be quite powerful, but note it'll cost you a lot of ki points. By the time enemies are getting legendary resistance and high CON saves, this becomes a bit worse. Note that you can apply this on all attacks you make in a round.
Ki-Empowered Strikes Pretty much required to have if you want to remain useful in combat. In a campaign without magic items, this becomes even better.
Evasion I'm pretty sure I don't have to say how useful this can be.
Stillness of mind Charmed and Frightened aren't too uncommon effects. Being able to remove them is good, although it costs you an action.
Purity of Body Poison is common, but you'll still not use this 90% of the time.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon A social ability, which gives you some out-of-combat versatility. It won't safe your life, but it can make certain encounters far easier.
Diamond soul Rerolling (death) saving throws is great on its own. Proficiency in all saving throws on top of that? This is great, and nothing else.
Timeless body If you are still worried about starving to death at this level, something has gone wrong. The other features are mere fluff.
Empty Body Astral projection on yourself only isn't what I'd exactly call useful. The other feature is great, though. Even against enemies with truesight this is sky blue.
Perfect self Not that great compared to some other level 20 features (druid, barbarian).


Way of the Open Hand Best of the three, this makes you more effective in combat than any other monk.
Open hand technique Simply amazing.
Wholeness of body Free healing, but it costs an action.
Tranquility Nearly unusable. A level one spell you cannot even control? Awful.
Quivering Palm This is simply wonderful. It amounts to a save-or-die, which 5e doesn't have many of.

Way of the Shadow Not bad, if you have/want a stealthy party this is something for you. Shadow step and Opportunist both make you stronger in combat.
Shadow Arts More and better spells than the elemental monk.
Shadow Step This must be the best feature of this tradition.
Cloak of Shadows A surprise attack. It is nice, but nothing more.
Opportunist Who doesn't like free damage?

Way of the Four Elements Spellcasting from a rather limited list, and it consumes the ki points you badly need.

Breath of Winter Your normal attacks do more damage and don't cost ki points.
Clench of the North Wind Stunning strike is better.
Elemental Attunement This is better than it appears to be. A lot can be done with this power. Note that you can technically swap it out at a higher level.
Eternal Mountain Defense Not too bad, but from level 18 on Empty Body is better.
Fangs of the fire snake Good damage, and the extra reach opens up hit-and-run tactics. You could pick worse.
Fist of Four Thunders Battlefield control is good. Open Hand is better at throwing a single person around, though.
Fist of Unbroken Air Just attack, you'll do more damage.
Flames of the Phoenix Fireball is a good spell, but you don't need more ways to deal damage that badly.
Gong of the Summit Bad damage for 3 ki points...
Mist Stance Both out-of-combat and in-combat use.
Ride the Wind Mobility is good. This spell gives mobility. This spell is good.
River of Hungry Flame Lots of uses, depends on your creativity.
Rush of the Gale Spirits I can only see one or two situations where you would use this
Shape the Flowing River Depends on how much your DM is willing to let slide.
Sweeping Cinder Strike This is simply awful.
Water Whip Errata turned this into an action, making it worthless.
Wave of Rolling Earth Just like wall of fire, this can be used in many ways.

Barbarian Extra rage damage and unarmored defense are useless, but rage gives other benefits, and Reckless Attack is pretty neat.
Bard A spellcasting class that needs your dump stat. If you have a Charisma of 14 or more (why would you?), this becomes decent. If your charisma is 10 or less, though, this is simply awful
Cleric You already have good wisdom, and many of the domains have attractive powers.
Druid Druid/Monk is a well-known multiclass. Extra AC while wildshaping and spells, and all you need are stats you'd boost anyway? Better than cleric, except for a one-level dip. Some options with the wild shape won't work, ask your DM before you go for Druid, maybe you DM says you don't get the extra AC (or attacks/spells).
Fighter One or two levels in fighter rarely hurt.
Paladin Maybe take two levels so that you get LoH and Divine Smite.
Ranger Ignore the stat matchups; this is a bad multiclass.
Rogue Shadow monk mixes nice with rogue.
Sorcerer Why would you do this?
Warlock This rating might come as a surprise, but truth is bladelock/monk builds can get rather interesting. There are still better options, though.
Wizard Same as sorcerer.

Alert This is good for every class, not sure if this is the ASI worth but not a bad choice at all
Athlete You can't do many things with this, when you reach level 9 this becomes even red
Actor Probably you have a low charisma, maybe for roleplaying (changeling monk) but not a good option for most builds
Charger Can be useful, not worse for you than for most other classes
Crossbow Expert You don't have the proficiency with a hand crossbow, ignoring loading is the only you can do with this. When you reach level 11 your monk weapons already do 1d8 (shortbow) and this becomes worthless
Defensive Duelist If you use shortsword(s) this isn't bad
Dual Wielder Useless, just useless
Dungeon Delver In some campaigns nice, in most not worth it
Durable You have an average constitution, this makes you after every short rest ready for fights
Elemental adept If you are an elemental monk you often don't want damage spells, so Always red
Grappler If you have high strength this feat isn't as bad as it sounds
Great Weapon Master Nothing for you
Healer If there isn't a healing bard/cleric/druid/paladin this becomes blue. This feat isn't bad at all.
Heavily Armored You don't need armor
Heavy Armor Master You don't wear heavy armor, because you're a monk...
Inspiring Leader with a high charisma this feat isn't as bad as most feats, with a charisma of 13 or lower you really can't use this.
Keen Mind Boosts inteligence, you don't need that. And the benefits are too situational
Lightly Armored Don't wear armor
Linguist As keen mind, but a little bit better
Lucky This is so useful, even when you get diamond soul this stays blue
Mage Slayer Depending on campaign, but now you have good defenses against spellcasters. In melee you are already a boss and against archers you have deflect missiles.
Magic Initiate Maybe for hex, but magic initate is a little bit UP feat.
Martial adept This is worse than magic initate, because you here don't get cantrips
Medium armor master I said enough about armor
Mobile Extra speed and some other helpful things. Perfect for a monk
Moderately Armored Armor...
Mounted Combatant Decent feat if you have a mount, but you are faster than you mount so maybe not. A higher levels this is still black, but not as good as it was
Observant +1 wisdom and other good abilities, nice for an odd stat in wisdom.
Polearm master Even with a quarterstaff this is just bad
Resillent Good for constitution or wisdom, but when you reach level 14 you can't use this at all
Ritual Caster Pretty bad
Savage attacker If you are damage focussing and you have still an ASI, you can use this
Sentinel You already use your bonus action, and you already are faster than most enemies
Sharpshooter Makes you better ranged, but if you want to go ranged why did you become a monk? Conclusion: Not for monks
Shield Master A shield? For monks?
Skilled There are some nice skills for you
Skulker For shadow monks this is blue
Spell Sniper For elemental monks this is also a waste of your ASI
Tavern Brawler +1 stat and a little bit better in grappeling. Other features you already have
Tough Good for the hit points, but you also need the consitution save, becomes blue if you get diamond soul
War Caster Like elemental adept and spell sniper, also red for elemental monks
Weapon Master Because they don't count as a monk weapon, you can't use it


Thanks to Dire_Stirge for helping me out with this guide!

[ruy343]

Two notes:

You forgot to write about High Elves, even though you refer to them elsewhere in the races section
You suggest going with variant human as a race, but do not offer a guide to feats that you feel helpful. Would you mind putting that in? I would be willing to help, of course, should you require it.

[PoeticDwarf]

Two notes:

You forgot to write about High Elves, even though you refer to them elsewhere in the races section
You suggest going with variant human as a race, but do not offer a guide to feats that you feel helpful. Would you mind putting that in? I would be willing to help, of course, should you require it.

Stupid that I forgot the High Elf, I will put him in later. I will also put the feats in. Thank you for the suggestion, I completely forgot it.

[Ninja_Prawn]

At the risk of opening up old wounds...

You advise monk/druid as a multiclass, mostly for the unarmed defense + wildshape combo.

As a DM, I do not permit this combo, because it's not 'realistic'. I believe many others agree with me. Therefore, I would add a note to the guide saying "check with your DM before trying this."

Personally, I'd add a health warning at the top of the multiclassing section, saying that monks generally prefer to be pure monks, due to ki progression & action economy. Only MC if you've got a specific goal in mind.

[Sigreid]

Warlock, for 2 levels is pretty optimal for a shadow monk as devil's sight is nearly the only way to see through your own magical darkness.

[PoeticDwarf]

At the risk of opening up old wounds...

You advise monk/druid as a multiclass, mostly for the unarmed defense + wildshape combo.

As a DM, I do not permit this combo, because it's not 'realistic'. I believe many others agree with me. Therefore, I would add a note to the guide saying "check with your DM before trying this."

Personally, I'd add a health warning at the top of the multiclassing section, saying that monks generally prefer to be pure monks, due to ki progression & action economy. Only MC if you've got a specific goal in mind.

I will add it, but still is the druid dip with two levels or more better than, say, cleric. Or any other spellcaster.

[Citan]

Hi! Thanks for the guide. :)

Two quick notes.
1) While indeed the Elements Way is lackluster compared to others, I do not follow you on the water whip rating. Yes, it's now an action, and it's a real pain. Still, for a pure Elements Monk it's AFAIK the only way to do nova damage since there is no limit to Ki points you can pour in.
Also, it can be useful for tactical positioning (draw an enemy to disclose a squishy ally, or bring him into range for stunning strike or ally's next turn). So it should be at least same rating as Fangs of Fire Snake imo.

2) Cleric should be same rated as Druid. Sure they do not offer the same kind of benefits, but you could also cast spells such as Spirit Guardians to break additional havoc since you're always good in melee.
There are other benefits for a few-level dips but I unfortunately don't have time to detail now. I'll post another comment if you're interested. :)

See you later!

[SharkForce]

Hi! Thanks for the guide. :)

Two quick notes.
1) While indeed the Elements Way is lackluster compared to others, I do not follow you on the water whip rating. Yes, it's now an action, and it's a real pain. Still, for a pure Elements Monk it's AFAIK the only way to do nova damage since there is no limit to Ki points you can pour in.
Also, it can be useful for tactical positioning (draw an enemy to disclose a squishy ally, or bring him into range for stunning strike or ally's next turn). So it should be at least same rating as Fangs of Fire Snake imo.

[snip]

See you later!

there's a little table in the elemental monk that tells you what your maximum allowed points are.

[Citan]

there's a little table in the elemental monk that tells you what your maximum allowed points are.
AFAIK, the limitation only concern "monk spellcasting".

Casting Elemental Spells. S o m e elem ental
disciplin es allow you to cast spells. S e e chapter 10 for
the general rules o f spellcasting. To cast on e o f these
spells, you u se its casting tim e and other rules, but you
don ’t need to provide material com pon en ts for it.
O n ce you reach 5th level in this class, you can spend
additional ki points to in crease the level o f an elem ental
discipline spell that you cast, provided that the spell has
an en hanced effect at a higher level, as burning hands
does. The spell's level in creases by 1 for each additional
ki point you spend. For exam ple, if you are a 5th-level
m on k and use S w eep in g Cinder Strike to cast burning
hands, you can spend 3 ki points to cast it as a 2nd-level
spell (the disciplin e’s ba se cost o f 2 ki points plus 1).
T h e m axim u m num ber o f ki points you can spend to
cast a spell in this w ay (including its ba se ki point cost
and any additional ki poin ts you sp en d to in crease its
level) is determ ined by your m on k level, as sh ow n in the
S p ells and Ki Points table.

Water Whip is a pure Monk ability, so doesn't fall in the above mentioned limitation. :)
Sure, pouring all your Ki points in a single attack isn't the best way to use them, but it still means Monk can have a decent burst damage.
Real downside is Water Whip being now an action instead of a bonus action, but well. There are many things that could be changed to make Elements more viable...

Since I'm here, about Cleric.
While I also love Druid multiclass, because I usually prefer Druid for its more versatile spell list anyways, a few things I find nice to consider in Cleric multiclass for a Monk...
- Light domain: a useful cantrip and nice spells to complement Monk offensive abilities (especially Faerie Fire to get advantage at lvl1). Warding Flare is dispensable for a Monk though.
- Nature: another way to get Shillelagh, Magic Resistance at lvl 6 is nice for anyone as a reaction (although a bit redundant with Evasion).
- Tempest: not much synergy, but noted for Thunderwave that can provide a quick escape.
- Trickery: nice spells to have (Mirror Image!), CD can be useful (at least for providing advantage). Lvl6 Invisibility for some builds.
- War: for CD and spells, need at least 5lvl to be good (since you cannot cast Magic Weapon on your fists).

You lose versatility on spells though, but for a few levels dips, I think trading spell choice for abilities is fair enough. :)

[PoeticDwarf]

Water whip isn't enough. Monks already can go nova with stunning strike. Spending way too many points for 10d10 damage isn't worth it. I agree druid is normal black, but sone DMs allow wild shape/martial arts. The reason druid is blue.

[ImSAMazing]

Water whip isn't enough. Monks already can go nova with stunning strike. Spending way too many points for 10d10 damage isn't worth it. I agree druid is normal black, but sone DMs allow wild shape/martial arts. The reason druid is blue.
I'd add a message: black if your DM doesn't allow the wild shape martial arts combo and/or the unarmed defense wild shape combo.

[PoeticDwarf]

I'd add a message: black if your DM doesn't allow the wild shape martial arts combo and/or the unarmed defense wild shape combo.

I already added some DMs don't allow it. It's logical it becomes a worse choice if a DM doesn't allow it, right?

[Aell]

Hi EnderDwarf! Big monk fan, quickly found your writeup while searching for monk goods. Sorry for resurrecting a 9 month old thread, but I had a question about your monk character creation guide, since I am going to take part in a DnD-game soon and want to make a good monk.

On the topic of monk race suitability, you write of the Wood Elf:


Wood elf +2 Dex and +1 Wis, oh yeah, extra speed is nice. In addition, the basic elf features and Mask of the Wild which is very useful.

I am reading up on the Wood Elf, and the DnDWiki entry on them (dandwiki dot com) says:
+2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Intelligence, –2 Constitution
I read nothing about a +1 wisdom bonus on that page, and the -2 constitution penalty is kind of a hazard for a monk, is it not?

I tried looking at other places for Wood Elf info(dnd-wiki dot org, dungeons dot wikia dot com, etc) they all use the same stats, it seems.
So how is it? Are wood elves really one of the best choices for monk, if they don't get +1WIS and they instead get -2CON...?

Also, you commented on the wood elf that "Extra speed is nice", where does the extra speed come from? I thought wood elves had 30feet speed, like all other medium creatures?

Grateful for response!
/Aell

[Theodoxus]

Hi EnderDwarf! Big monk fan, quickly found your writeup while searching for monk goods. Sorry for resurrecting a 9 month old thread, but I had a question about your monk character creation guide, since I am going to take part in a DnD-game soon and want to make a good monk.

On the topic of monk race suitability, you write of the Wood Elf:



I am reading up on the Wood Elf, and the DnDWiki entry on them (dandwiki dot com) says:
I read nothing about a +1 wisdom bonus on that page, and the -2 constitution penalty is kind of a hazard for a monk, is it not?

I tried looking at other places for Wood Elf info(dnd-wiki dot org, dungeons dot wikia dot com, etc) they all use the same stats, it seems.
So how is it? Are wood elves really one of the best choices for monk, if they don't get +1WIS and they instead get -2CON...?

Also, you commented on the wood elf that "Extra speed is nice", where does the extra speed come from? I thought wood elves had 30feet speed, like all other medium creatures?

Grateful for response!
/Aell

That's a 3.x wood elf. The 5E WElf is as described by EnderDwarf.

[eastmabl]

A comment -

You note that you should consider an urchin background if your party lacks a rogue.

Why wouldn't you also consider the criminal background for the same reasons? Furthermore, you get proficiency with thieves' tools, which should make the monk an even better stopgap rogue.

[Aell]

That's a 3.x wood elf. The 5E WElf is as described by EnderDwarf.

Oh wow, so all those different wikis about DnD (I count five total) are using old figures?!?! I humbly stand corrected then, and this is very good news. Thanks!

[KorvinStarmast]

I am reading up on the Wood Elf, and the DnDWiki entry on them (dandwiki dot com) says: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Intelligence, –2 Constitution
I read nothing about a +1 wisdom bonus on that page, and the -2 constitution penalty is kind of a hazard for a monk, is it not?
/Aell
Suggest you read the Player's Handbook for D&D Fifth Edition. (5e) That wiki page is obviously not referring to 5e.

+2 dexterity is for all elves.
+1 Wisdom is unique to wood elves.

There is no negative/penalty for Int, nor for constitution, in 5e for the wood elf.

Best wishes. If you don't have the book, borrow the PHB from a friend and read up on races, classes, etcetera.

[Malifice]

Stunning fist and diamond soul need to be gold. No other color will do.

Proficiency in 4 saves and rerolls? The classes key ability in stunning fist?

These abilities are worth 4 feats each. I would rather have each than 4 feats or ASI.

[KorvinStarmast]

Stunning fist and diamond soul need to be gold. No other color will do.
I agree on Diamond Soul, but do you mean Stunning Strike?

The hitch is the Con save. A lot of monsters have + to con.
Is the DC based on the Monk's dex, wis, or what?


Starting at 5th level, you can interfere with the flowWhen you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn. Was that covered in an errata or sage advice, or is it like the con save for concentration, 10 or half damage, whichever is greater?

[RulesJD]

I agree on Diamond Soul, but do you mean Stunning Strike?

The hitch is the Con save. A lot of monsters have + to con.
Is the DC based on the Monk's dex, wis, or what?

Was that covered in an errata or sage advice, or is it like the con save for concentration, 10 or half damage, whichever is greater?

Con save DC is based on your Wisdom. 8 + Proficiency + Wisdom bonus. It's right there in the PHB.

[KorvinStarmast]

Con save DC is based on your Wisdom. 8 + Proficiency + Wisdom bonus. It's right there in the PHB.
Hmm, I see, it's based on being a Ki ability. My brain was parsing it as a form of attack/melee attack, which was the wrong way to look at it. Thank you.

Ki

Some of your ki features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows: Ki save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier

[PoeticDwarf]

Stunning fist and diamond soul need to be gold. No other color will do.

Proficiency in 4 saves and rerolls? The classes key ability in stunning fist?

These abilities are worth 4 feats each. I would rather have each than 4 feats or ASI.

Diamond soul is extremely powerful if you'd get it earlier, now it is in my opinion still very powerful, but saves just aren't THAT important anymore (they still are). Stunning strike is really nice but as mentioned below, the con save is what this makes worse. It eats your Ki and playing a high level monk myself, later you can't use it often because of the legendary resistance. I think the both are close to gold, but I'm not too sure if they really are gold.

[PoeticDwarf]

At the risk of opening up old wounds...

You advise monk/druid as a multiclass, mostly for the unarmed defense + wildshape combo.

As a DM, I do not permit this combo, because it's not 'realistic'. I believe many others agree with me. Therefore, I would add a note to the guide saying "check with your DM before trying this."

Personally, I'd add a health warning at the top of the multiclassing section, saying that monks generally prefer to be pure monks, due to ki progression & action economy. Only MC if you've got a specific goal in mind.

Also, the reason it is pretty strange DMs don't allow it in my opinion is that it works raw and it is logical. I mean, you keep the same mental stats in wildshape but your brains trains, so it all has to be MAGIC !

I would even let dragonbreath work in wildshape, it is as logical as the same inteligence.

But as you know, I changed it, and although I think it is pretty strange I know most DMs won't allow parts of it.

[RulesJD]

Diamond soul is extremely powerful if you'd get it earlier, now it is in my opinion still very powerful, but saves just aren't THAT important anymore (they still are). Stunning strike is really nice but as mentioned below, the con save is what this makes worse. It eats your Ki and playing a high level monk myself, later you can't use it often because of the legendary resistance. I think the both are close to gold, but I'm not too sure if they really are gold.

Agreed about Diamond Soul due to it's high level requirement.

Completely disagree about Stunning Fist. It is probably the single best melee class feature in the game.

Con save isn't great, but it isn't bad either. Why? Because you're essentially forcing disadvantage on each save by spending at least 2 Ki points and forcing them to roll multiple times until success.

Also, it is the BEST ability BECAUSE of Legendary Resist. No DM on the planet is going to let their BBEG lose an entire turn (and generate advantage to hit/auto fail dex saves) so they are 100% going to use LR against any failed Stunning Fist. Blow a few Ki points to drain a BBEG's LR practically in 1 turn? That is massively powerful, especially considering that by RAW/RAI it is NOT a magical attack, thus they don't get advantage on their roll against it, unlike all the other spell effects.

Oh, and they recharge on a short rest, aka every 2-3 combat encounters. By T3/4 gameplay that means you're never running out for all practical purposes.

[PoeticDwarf]

Agreed about Diamond Soul due to it's high level requirement.

Completely disagree about Stunning Fist. It is probably the single best melee class feature in the game.

Con save isn't great, but it isn't bad either. Why? Because you're essentially forcing disadvantage on each save by spending at least 2 Ki points and forcing them to roll multiple times until success.

Also, it is the BEST ability BECAUSE of Legendary Resist. No DM on the planet is going to let their BBEG lose an entire turn (and generate advantage to hit/auto fail dex saves) so they are 100% going to use LR against any failed Stunning Fist. Blow a few Ki points to drain a BBEG's LR practically in 1 turn? That is massively powerful, especially considering that by RAW/RAI it is NOT a magical attack, thus they don't get advantage on their roll against it, unlike all the other spell effects.

Oh, and they recharge on a short rest, aka every 2-3 combat encounters. By T3/4 gameplay that means you're never running out for all practical purposes.
So one guy says they should both be gold. I think they both shouldn't. Above someone says only diamond soul should be gold and you say only stunning strike should be gold ?

I think this is confusing and funny! I don't think what you say is right because with +15 con saves bosses are barely failing and if they fail they have LR. So till I see a REALLY good reason or many people think the same I'm not going to change it:smallamused:

[ruy343]

So one guy says they should both be gold. I think they both shouldn't. Above someone says only diamond soul should be gold and you say only stunning strike should be gold ?

I think this is confusing and funny! I don't think what you say is right because with +15 con saves bosses are barely failing and if they fail they have LR. So till I see a REALLY good reason or many people think the same I'm not going to change it:smallamused:

I agree; at higher levels, stunning strike is pretty much a waste of your ki (unless you can somehow inhibit your opponent's ability to roll absurdly well on the save). Even then, though, legendary resistance really castrates this monk ability.

However guys, remember, monks can be awesome battlefield controllers with their insane movement speed and a good grapple check (coupled with the "dodge" bonus action for a ki point). Never underestimate your ability to matter to the battle, even though your damage is relatively low.

[RickAllison]

I agree; at higher levels, stunning strike is pretty much a waste of your ki (unless you can somehow inhibit your opponent's ability to roll absurdly well on the save). Even then, though, legendary resistance really castrates this monk ability.

However guys, remember, monks can be awesome battlefield controllers with their insane movement speed and a good grapple check (coupled with the "dodge" bonus action for a ki point). Never underestimate your ability to matter to the battle, even though your damage is relatively low.

It seems that the greatest use for Stunning Strike is for disabling casters and other low Con, high power enemies. With three strikes, it has a very good chance of single-handedly dispatching enemies and thus preventing covering fire for other enemies. Monks aren't the fantastic DPR, boss-shattering PCs, they are skirmishers who have the right combination of mobility, power, and control to lock down targets that would normally prefer to hang back.

[N810]

Are you going to add the new monk class from the expansion ?

[KorvinStarmast]

Are you going to add the new monk class from the expansion ? Do you mean from the Sword Coast Adventure Guide? (SCAG)

[PoeticDwarf]

Are you going to add the new monk class from the expansion ?

This guide is pretty old. I'm currently working on an own system, a class guide and some classes (people of my ages have too much time). I think I could update it but not too sure when

[RulesJD]

So one guy says they should both be gold. I think they both shouldn't. Above someone says only diamond soul should be gold and you say only stunning strike should be gold ?

I think this is confusing and funny! I don't think what you say is right because with +15 con saves bosses are barely failing and if they fail they have LR. So till I see a REALLY good reason or many people think the same I'm not going to change it:smallamused:

1. AAAHAHAHAHAHAH no. Ancient Dragons generally only get +14-15 to Con saves, a Kraken does as well. An Ancient Red gets +16. But that is where it stops. Big T only gets +10. Empyrean only gets +10. Lich only gets +10. Solar gets +8, Pit Fiend +13, Balor +12, and so on down the list as you decrease from CR20 down.

I would GLADLY GLADLY take +16 Con against the Monk's DC 19 con save. Why? Because YOU DON'T GET ADVANTAGE AGAINST IT. Because if I hit 4 times/round and spend 4 Ki points, your BBEG essentially has super disadvantage against it. Roll a 1 or 2 on your Ancient Red Dragon, out of 4 rolls, and you're screwed/forced to spend a Legendary Resistance. That's a 10% chance on each roll that your BBEG goes down hard, so over 4 rolls that means every turn you have about a 35% chance of failing at least one. Change that Ancient Red to an Ancient Black, and you're up to 60% chance of your BBEG being locked down/burning Legendary Resistance. Against big T, you're all but guaranteed to be burning through the Legendary Resistences in 1-2 rounds.

That's a 35% chance to completely disable your BBEG, without a follow on save. And that's against the best BBEG to fight against a Monk. Throw the Monk up against a Big T, Empyrean, Lich, etc. and the numbers skew heavily in favor of the Monk VERY quickly. And it's a short rest mechanic that you'll be able to easily sustain for 4-5 rounds of combat.

3. But even all that, the BEST reason why Stunning Fist is Gold from the moment you get it until level 20, is that there are practically no monsters, regardless of CR level, that are Condition Immune to Stun. That means all your all spell effects aimed at locking down/controlling a BBEG (or any of their minions you have to fight on the way there) are likely to fail due to conditional immunities.

Are there better class features for locking down a BBEG? Sure, Wall of Force from the Wizard spell list is one example. But guess what, this isn't a ranking as against other classes features that can break the game, this is as against Monk features. And there is no other class feature that is as useful to a Monk as Stunning Fist all the way from the instant they get it to the highest tiers of play.

[RulesJD]

It seems that the greatest use for Stunning Strike is for disabling casters and other low Con, high power enemies. With three strikes, it has a very good chance of single-handedly dispatching enemies and thus preventing covering fire for other enemies. Monks aren't the fantastic DPR, boss-shattering PCs, they are skirmishers who have the right combination of mobility, power, and control to lock down targets that would normally prefer to hang back.

Agree with the underlined, disagree with the bold.

The problem is that people don't know how even 1-2 rounds of Stun completely ends a fight. Can the Monk burn down the boss like a Paladin? Absolutely not, the burst DPR just isn't there.

What the Monk can do is spend 4 Ki, practically guarantee at least 1 failure even with a crazy +con save. Next round, use a metal Chain/Manacles to slap it on the BBEG and bind them. Or take their spell focus/weapon. Or shove a rag down their throat to gag/prevent verbal components. Or blow dust in their eyes to Blind them.

Not to mention that most 5e combats are over in 5-6 rounds. Sure you can't outright kill the BBEG, but you can effectively remove them from the fight. And you can do the exact same thing for practically every fight due to Ki refreshing on a short rest.

Sure, it takes a Monk longer to kill pretty much anything, but the short rest recharge nature of Ki + how Stunning works + naturally short combat anyways = Stunning Fist being the best melee class feature in the game, especially so for Monks.

[SharkForce]

regarding the claim that save proficiency becomes less important as you level.

.....


what?

why do you imagine that is? are save DCs *decreasing* at high level? or perhaps the value of an action to remove the status effect by a cleric? or perhaps at high levels, only comparatively minor status effects that don't inflict major penalties are ever used?

because in my experience, none of those things are true. proficiency bonus to saving throws is great. your bonus gets bigger, and you're up against higher DCs; it is much harder to save against DC 18 status effects with +0 than it is to save against DC 10 status effects with +0. status ailments at higher levels tend to get more unpleasant, and the action the person who is most likely a primary spellcaster would have to spend to get you out of a negative status effect has probably increased in value dramatically. because when you're level 14+, that means they *could* have used their action (and spell slot) on something *other* than saving your butt. like killing the BBEG faster, or clearing out his/her/its minions.

so uhhh... in what way does proficiency in all saving throws somehow become not amazing just because it happens late in your character advancement? i mean, it kinda stunk to wait that long, but once you get it, it is awesome. and then, not only do you get proficiency, you get the ability to reroll failures, regardless of the source; that magic resistance that doesn't apply to your stunning fist? well you get to use your ability to resist that stunning fist no problem.

diamond soul is an extremely good ability.

[RulesJD]

It's not that they don't matter as you level, they absolutely do.

It's just that the ability itself doesn't come online until such a high level that it's "usefulness" is diluted by the fact that most players will never, ever see it in action.

From a mechanical standpoint absolutely, it's a gold ability. Just from an actual gameplay perspective it might not be.

[SharkForce]

It's not that they don't matter as you level, they absolutely do.

It's just that the ability itself doesn't come online until such a high level that it's "usefulness" is diluted by the fact that most players will never, ever see it in action.

From a mechanical standpoint absolutely, it's a gold ability. Just from an actual gameplay perspective it might not be.

this is a terrible way to analyze things.

it sucks because you probably won't have it? uuhhhh... no.

by that measure, every ability from every class in the game sucks because there will be far more characters that don't have it than do. the logic that you are using would tell me that action surge is not very good because there are many more non-fighter characters than there are fighters. it would tell me that portent sucks because there are far more characters that are not divination wizards than there are characters that are divination wizards. it would tell me that druid spellcasting sucks, because there are far more characters that will never get to use it than there are characters that will.

you can go ahead and rate things that way if you want. i think it's completely wrong and misleading and likely to lead to making poor choices, but hey, if you want to work on the basis of how likely people are to get the ability go ahead.

personally, i'm going to measure based on how good the ability is to have. if you're not playing a game that will go to level 14, then just ignore everything that comes after the point you expect to reach. that doesn't mean the abilities are bad, it just means you don't need to worry about them until you expect to reach that level.

[RickAllison]

this is a terrible way to analyze things.

it sucks because you probably won't have it? uuhhhh... no.

by that measure, every ability from every class in the game sucks because there will be far more characters that don't have it than do. the logic that you are using would tell me that action surge is not very good because there are many more non-fighter characters than there are fighters. it would tell me that portent sucks because there are far more characters that are not divination wizards than there are characters that are divination wizards. it would tell me that druid spellcasting sucks, because there are far more characters that will never get to use it than there are characters that will.

you can go ahead and rate things that way if you want. i think it's completely wrong and misleading and likely to lead to making poor choices, but hey, if you want to work on the basis of how likely people are to get the ability go ahead.

personally, i'm going to measure based on how good the ability is to have. if you're not playing a game that will go to level 14, then just ignore everything that comes after the point you expect to reach. that doesn't mean the abilities are bad, it just means you don't need to worry about them until you expect to reach that level.

That was an awful analogy to prove a valid point. A better analogy would be the capstone ability for a Moon Druid. It won't come online until level 20, but it's still considered one of the most powerful abilities in the game due to he massive amount of shielding it provides. It would also mean Foresight and Wish wouldn't be gold, as those come at the earliest at level 17.

[Malifice]

Diamond soul is extremely powerful if you'd get it earlier, now it is in my opinion still very powerful, but saves just aren't THAT important anymore (they still are). Stunning strike is really nice but as mentioned below, the con save is what this makes worse. It eats your Ki and playing a high level monk myself, later you can't use it often because of the legendary resistance. I think the both are close to gold, but I'm not too sure if they really are gold.

Stunning strike (once online) radically changes the way the Monk is played. You should be using at least 50 percent of your Ki on spamming stunning strike on argets.

Note it stuns them until the end of your next turn. When stunned, all creatures have advantage to hit them, and they cant take reactions or do anything at all. They also automatically fail Dex and Str saves (allowing them to be easily disarmed, pushed into a pit, grabbed or whatever) meaning that while stunned you can really screw them over even more.

My personal favorite is to move to [high priority target] using the monks mobility, slap them till theyre stunned then [using a 3 level BM dip] remove weapons/ spell foci from them via disarming strike and sit them on their ass using tripping strike [auto fail saves].

Even with a DC 15 or 16 Con save (and thats super impressive) spending 2 points of Ki virtually guarantees that your opponent misses a whole turn, and you and your party get a full round worth of attacks at the critter at advantage [a death sentence in 5E].

Its an auto win button against glass cannons like mages and so forth [who the monk is the bane of].

Once you witness a monk played smart with this ability, it cant be rated anything other than Gold.

[RickAllison]

Stunning strike (once online) radically changes the way the Monk is played. You should be using at least 50 percent of your Ki on spamming stunning strike on argets.

Note it stuns them until the end of your next turn. When stunned, all creatures have advantage to hit them, and they cant take reactions or do anything at all. They also automatically fail Dex and Str saves (allowing them to be easily disarmed, pushed into a pit, grabbed or whatever) meaning that while stunned you can really screw them over even more.

My personal favorite is to move to [high priority target] using the monks mobility, slap them till theyre stunned then [using a 3 level BM dip] remove weapons/ spell foci from them via disarming strike and sit them on their ass using tripping strike [auto fail saves].

Even with a DC 15 or 16 Con save (and thats super impressive) spending 2 points of Ki virtually guarantees that your opponent misses a whole turn, and you and your party get a full round worth of attacks at the critter at advantage [a death sentence in 5E].

Its an auto win button against glass cannons like mages and so forth [who the monk is the bane of].

Once you witness a monk played smart with this ability, it cant be rated anything other than Gold.

I think you overestimate the power of Stunning Strike. You are liable to drop more than two ki per turn if you want to stun the tougher creatures. I still think it's gold, just not quite as shiny of gold :smallwink:

[Lines]

I think you overestimate the power of Stunning Strike. You are liable to drop more than two ki per turn if you want to stun the tougher creatures. I still think it's gold, just not quite as shiny of gold :smallwink:

At fifth level when you get it the save will be DC 13-14, most enemies at that level will have about a 50% chance of saving. I'd say an average of two ki per turn sounds about right.

[Theodoxus]

At fifth level when you get it the save will be DC 13-14, most enemies at that level will have about a 50% chance of saving. I'd say an average of two ki per turn sounds about right.

And you have 5 Ki per short rest. So, 2 1/2 rounds on average. Given the right party makeup, you're slaughtering 2 decent opponents per short rest - choose wisely!

[dickerson76]

...They also automatically fail Dex and Str saves (allowing them to be easily disarmed, pushed into a pit, grabbed or whatever) meaning that while stunned you can really screw them over even more...

Tripping, shoving, and grabbing are Strength contests, not saving throws, so they are not auto-fail. Disarming is the only auto-fail you mentioned and that is only available to those who dipped BM.

[RickAllison]

Tripping, shoving, and grabbing are Strength contests, not saving throws, so they are not auto-fail. Disarming is the only auto-fail you mentioned and that is only available to those who dipped BM.

In the DMG, page 271, they do have optional actions/attack options that include disarming. However, your point still stands; that option is also a contest. That being said, by that interpretation an unconscious creature would also be able to resist being grappled since it also only auto-fails saving throws.

[PoeticDwarf]

1. AAAHAHAHAHAHAH no. Ancient Dragons generally only get +14-15 to Con saves, a Kraken does as well. An Ancient Red gets +16. But that is where it stops. Big T only gets +10. Empyrean only gets +10. Lich only gets +10. Solar gets +8, Pit Fiend +13, Balor +12, and so on down the list as you decrease from CR20 down.

I would GLADLY GLADLY take +16 Con against the Monk's DC 19 con save. Why? Because YOU DON'T GET ADVANTAGE AGAINST IT. Because if I hit 4 times/round and spend 4 Ki points, your BBEG essentially has super disadvantage against it. Roll a 1 or 2 on your Ancient Red Dragon, out of 4 rolls, and you're screwed/forced to spend a Legendary Resistance. That's a 10% chance on each roll that your BBEG goes down hard, so over 4 rolls that means every turn you have about a 35% chance of failing at least one. Change that Ancient Red to an Ancient Black, and you're up to 60% chance of your BBEG being locked down/burning Legendary Resistance. Against big T, you're all but guaranteed to be burning through the Legendary Resistences in 1-2 rounds.

That's a 35% chance to completely disable your BBEG, without a follow on save. And that's against the best BBEG to fight against a Monk. Throw the Monk up against a Big T, Empyrean, Lich, etc. and the numbers skew heavily in favor of the Monk VERY quickly. And it's a short rest mechanic that you'll be able to easily sustain for 4-5 rounds of combat.

3. But even all that, the BEST reason why Stunning Fist is Gold from the moment you get it until level 20, is that there are practically no monsters, regardless of CR level, that are Condition Immune to Stun. That means all your all spell effects aimed at locking down/controlling a BBEG (or any of their minions you have to fight on the way there) are likely to fail due to conditional immunities.

Are there better class features for locking down a BBEG? Sure, Wall of Force from the Wizard spell list is one example. But guess what, this isn't a ranking as against other classes features that can break the game, this is as against Monk features. And there is no other class feature that is as useful to a Monk as Stunning Fist all the way from the instant they get it to the highest tiers of play.
I meant the big bosses, but say +12 then.

You could if you go nova use 1 point to make an extra attack. You will on average hit two attacks.

Every turn you will spent 3 points. Two stunning strikes. You will every two turns have to spent ONE USE of legendary resistance. 80% of the 5e fights is over in or about 5 rounds, so you will nova through your KI and the boss won't even be stunned the whole fight. You will maybe get through the LR in 5 rounds then. With an average 4p party there are maybe 3 other saves the boss has to made. Conclusion. You use 15ki and the boss will just fail one save in the whole fight at all. Stune is huge, it isn't for 15 KI and 3 spellcast slots...

The only time my stunning strike worked against a CR 16+ boss was on level 15. When we fought an adult red dragon. I could just stun it with a HUGE amount of luck at the end. Spending 13 ki in that fight to stun the dragon one round. And for that the dragon used one use on my open hand ability. The stun once worked again some CR 14 creature and that's the high level stuff.

I do see more people people who think stunning strike is that strong. I should ptobably change it to Gold and later Sky Blue. I'll do it tommorow

[RulesJD]

I meant the big bosses, but say +12 then.

You could if you go nova use 1 point to make an extra attack. You will on average hit two attacks.

Every turn you will spent 3 points. Two stunning strikes. You will every two turns have to spent ONE USE of legendary resistance. 80% of the 5e fights is over in or about 5 rounds, so you will nova through your KI and the boss won't even be stunned the whole fight. You will maybe get through the LR in 5 rounds then. With an average 4p party there are maybe 3 other saves the boss has to made. Conclusion. You use 15ki and the boss will just fail one save in the whole fight at all. Stune is huge, it isn't for 15 KI and 3 spellcast slots...

The only time my stunning strike worked against a CR 16+ boss was on level 15. When we fought an adult red dragon. I could just stun it with a HUGE amount of luck at the end. Spending 13 ki in that fight to stun the dragon one round. And for that the dragon used one use on my open hand ability. The stun once worked again some CR 14 creature and that's the high level stuff.

I do see more people people who think stunning strike is that strong. I should ptobably change it to Gold and later Sky Blue. I'll do it tommorow

Level 15 Monk will have at minimum +10 to hit. Likely +11 from at least a +1 weapon for their main 2 attacks. Your Adult Red Dragon has AC 19. That means the Monk will hit 55-60% of the time. If someone follows my advice and level dips 1 into Cleric, you get Bless for a high AC/Save fight like this and you're hitting 60-80% of the time. So you'll be forcing a lot more stun saves on even a minimally optimized Monk.

[ruy343]

Uh, wait... Stunning Strike costs 3 points per use... Or so I thought...

[RulesJD]

Uh, wait... Stunning Strike costs 3 points per use... Or so I thought...

No, just one. Should probably be 3, but just 1.

[Malifice]

Tripping, shoving, and grabbing are Strength contests, not saving throws, so they are not auto-fail. Disarming is the only auto-fail you mentioned and that is only available to those who dipped BM.

There are plenty of options, abilities and spells that push people over or require dex or str saves (Dex and Str saves are among the most common in the game).

The OHM Monk archetype has one out of the box.

Stunning someone makes them vulnerable. All melee attacks have advantage and they auto fail Dex saves (hello fireball). Its a 200 percent increase in DPR against them, from the whole party, for a whole round in addition to denying them a whole rounds worth of actions. A [medium-hard] 5E combat rarely lasts more than around 5 rounds on average.

Look at a fight featuring a drow mage and a bunch of drow. The Monk runs up to the Mage (bonus action dash if needed, running along walls to get there) and attacks the mage 2-4 times spamming stunning strike on the 2 or so hits it lands. Odds are the Mage gets stunned. Our friendly Paladin then walks over and belts the Mage twice (at advantage) spamming a divine smite or two. The Mage cant take reactions, and likely explodes in a burst of gore. The Monk and Paladin proceed to high five each other.

If a creature is getting stunned and is still standing by the time its next turn comes around, youre probably not doing it right.


And you have 5 Ki per short rest. So, 2 1/2 rounds on average. Given the right party makeup, you're slaughtering 2 decent opponents per short rest - choose wisely!

Yep, so at 5th level youre stunning 1 priority target per short rest (2 encounters) and have 3 more Ki to do other stuff with. By the time you hit 10th youre stunning 1 priority target per encounter and still have 6 Ki left over per short rest.

A standard DnD encounter features 1 heavy/hard target and a bunch of mooks. A hobgoblin captain and a bunch of hobgoblins, or a Githyanki Knight and a bunch of Githyanki warriors, or a Drow mage and a bunch of drow warriors etc. The Monks role is to use his insane mobility to close with the priority target, and stun it, shutting it down. One or two PCs then deal with the mooks, while one or two PCs wail on the stunned priority target.

If an encounter begins with an enemy spellcaster within (move+dash) distance of the monk, its getting punched in the face at least twice (maybe up to 4 times) on turn 1 with stunning strike layered on to each hit.

When youve seen stunning strike employed by a smart player who understands the Monks role, it is devastating. One of those abilities that causes novice DMs to suddenly start plonking legendary saves on all monsters and giving them all Con proficiency to stop it (which is a douche move by the DM).

[PoeticDwarf]

Level 15 Monk will have at minimum +10 to hit. Likely +11 from at least a +1 weapon for their main 2 attacks. Your Adult Red Dragon has AC 19. That means the Monk will hit 55-60% of the time. If someone follows my advice and level dips 1 into Cleric, you get Bless for a high AC/Save fight like this and you're hitting 60-80% of the time. So you'll be forcing a lot more stun saves on even a minimally optimized Monk.

This is a monk guide, not a cleric/monk guide. So instead of 50% it becomes 55%/60%. Wow, big difference. And my monk didn't have 20 dex because of some roleplaying stats so that becomes +9. There were magic weapons, but just normal +1/+2 weapons are boring.

I still think it is a waste against the most powerful enemies, but it's true it is extremely powerful, even if played wrong. So I changed it to gold and later sky blue.

[Ruenruotel]

Hello there, EnderDwarf !
I have been analyzing your monk guide, as well as 3 others, for weeks, and I'm currently playing a Way of the Four Elements monk (even if I think he is less powerful than what I had with the Way of the Open Hand, I prefer him for the increased fun I get). As I am still in Tier 1, I keep rebuilding my character over and over again.

A question comes to my mind (in fact, more than one, but I will wait for an answer on this one before asking more) about the part of your guide on the Way of the Four Elements subclass.
You gave the "Breath of Winter" (Cone of Cold) discipline a "bad" (purple) color and said that "Your normal attacks do more damage and don't cost ki points".

I am confused on this rating, and would like to have explanations.
Let's simulate a Level 17 (so Proficiency bonus of +6) Way of the Four Elements Monk with a score of 20 (+5) in Dexterity and Wisdom. In the simulation, he will always do average dices.

Let's say he does four attacks on his first turn (with Flurry of Blows, so 1 ki point used). As he has a bonus of +11 on his attacks, he has a 50% chance of hitting an enemy with 22 of Armor class (I will call him Fred), and 75% chance of hitting an enemy with 16 of Armor class (I wil call him Bob).
Let's say he focuses his 4 strikes on Fred, so he actually hits 50% of the time. Now, for the damage : 1d10+5 times 2, so 21 damage in average.
For the same situation with Bob, the monk would get an average damage of 31.5.

Now, on his second turn, let's say the monk uses his Breath of Winter (using 6 points of ki), which implies a Constitution saving throw of 19 (8+6+5). Let's say Fred has a Constitution modifier of +7 and is proficient in Constituton saving throws with a proficiency bonus of +6 (75% chance of taking half damage), and Bob has a Constitution modifier of +3 without proficiency (25% chance of taking half damage). Fred has 3 brothers with the same statistics, as well as Bob.
The damage for a Cone of cold is 8d8, so an average of 36 (18 if halved).
Two examples :
A) The Breath touches the four Freds, and three get a save on it. Fred1, Fred2 and Fred3 take 18 damage, and Fred4 takes 36. Total damage of 90.
B) The Breath touches the four Bobs, and one gets a save on it. Bob1, Bob2 and Bob3 take 36 damage, and Bob4 takes 18. Total damage of 126.

Giving these examples, it appears to me that Breath of Winter does more damage in one round, may it be against one or several ennemies.
Of course, if we take the ki point usage in consideration, I agree that in the long run, you would make more damage to a single opponent using 6 Flurried turns instead of one Breathed turn. In the Fred example, 126 (21*6) is higher than 90.

But... I still think that the Breath of Winter discipline deserves a better rating.
What do you think, EnderDwarf (or any other person that wants to answer me) ?

-Ruenruotel

P.S. : It is possible that I have done errors in my calculations. If so, I apologize.

[Serket]

I've seen a few guides like this, where someone rates class features and suggests ability score choices. And while I get that you're trying to help and I really do appreciate the effort, I don't think this format is particularly useful. New players reading the PHB usually get guidance on ability scores anyway, and it doesn't matter how good a particular class feature is - if you pick that class you get the feature, good or bad. What matters is how to make best use of said class features.

If you want to give advice, great! That's a good thing. But advice is most useful when framed in terms of player choices. A new-to-the-game player who's never played a monk doesn't need to know how good you think their level 17 class features are. They need to know how to make the round-by-round tactical choices in the game they're playing. Where to stand, who to hit, when to spend ki, what targets respond best to stunning fist... that sort of thing. Meanwhile a more experienced player who understands game tactics 101 but doesn't understand monk can be assumed to understand the 101 bit, but needs to know how the monk fits into it. So maybe talk about party roles and which/how monks can fill (them)?

Edited to add, like this:


A standard DnD encounter features 1 heavy/hard target and a bunch of mooks. A hobgoblin captain and a bunch of hobgoblins, or a Githyanki Knight and a bunch of Githyanki warriors, or a Drow mage and a bunch of drow warriors etc. The Monks role is to use his insane mobility to close with the priority target, and stun it, shutting it down. One or two PCs then deal with the mooks, while one or two PCs wail on the stunned priority target.

EG:
Look at a fight featuring a drow mage and a bunch of drow. The Monk runs up to the Mage (bonus action dash if needed, running along walls to get there) and attacks the mage 2-4 times spamming stunning strike on the 2 or so hits it lands. Odds are the Mage gets stunned. Our friendly Paladin then walks over and belts the Mage twice (at advantage) spamming a divine smite or two. The Mage cant take reactions, and likely explodes in a burst of gore. The Monk and Paladin proceed to high five each other.

[Spacehamster]

Great guide! :)
If you wanted to make a Cthulu monk(2 GOO warlock/ rest shadow monk) would you say taking level 1 as warlock and delaying 2nd attack and shadow monk teleport by 1 level is worth it for getting CON saves from the start for not loosing concentration on hex?

[Fast Jimmy]

Nice guide!

I was wondering... very little is said here about the Fighter MC, other than saying "1 or 2 levels isn't bad."

I'd say 1 level isn't that great - most Fighting Styles do not apply to monk at all, Armor and Weapon proficiencies are worthless with unarmored defense and monk weapons. You get the ability for more HP and Con Saves if you grab it level 1 and Second Wind isn't terrible, but none of those are worth less monk in my mind.

2 is getting somewhere... Action Surged Monk w/ Flurry of Blows unleashes four attacks in a round as early as Level 4, six attacks as early as Level 7. Nice nova, if you can grab it.

But Fighter 3 is where you can really make things interesting. EK is fairly lame due to MAD dependencies, but other options are great.

Battlemaster gives you Superiority Die, a strong resource that regenerates every short rest, just like your Ki and uses Dex as its Save (something you should be maxing out anyway). Meshes very well with a monk's ability set.

Champion is amazing, as always. Monks hit a lot, so getting increased chance to crit is only making those increased hits more likely to hurt a lot more.

Then you have some of the UA archetypes which, if your DM allows, can be interesting, such as the Scout or Monster Hunter, which can give you superiority die just like the BM, along with some interesting other abilities even as early as Level 3. Combine one of these archetypes with the Martial Adept feat and you have a large chunk of the BattleMaster's best stuff combined with a lot of extra bonuses. A dicey move for a MAD monk (pun intended), but it definitely makes you a master of many options, even if mechanically just a peg weaker than taking an ASI.


All that to say... if you go Monk/Fighter, go Fighter 3. Maybe even Fighter 4. Fighter 1, Monk 5, Fighter 2+3, Monk X has the potential to being much more powerful than just straight Monk.

[RulesJD]

Fighter dip is pretty terribad on a Monk, but mostly just because their other options of Warlock/Ranger/Cleric synergize much better.

All 3 of those options offer better DPR increases than a Champion would offer (average of an extra d6 or d8 on crits <<< Hunter's Mark/Hex/Divine Favor) any additional abilities that would be superior than Second Wind/Action Surge.

[RickAllison]

I would like to point out that the Fghter 1 dip does give access to the longbow for normal use, as well as to magical crossbows (which otherwise aren't really worth it). That longbow opens up the range of the monk to 150' without disadvantage and 600' with. Coupled with the monk getting significant bonuses to ranged combat through Deflext Missiles, Step of the Wind, and the massive movement bonuses, that proficiency gives access to a world of ranged options.

Of course, that becomes null conpared to other dips. Ranger (and War Cleric? I'm less familiar with them) gives that proficiency with Hunter's Mark. My argument is simply that due to the expanded range options, Fighter 1 does give something.

[RulesJD]

Warlock dip wouldn't give Longbow, but of course it would give EB.

Ranger/War Cleric gives all Martial Weps.

[RickAllison]

Warlock dip wouldn't give Longbow, but of course it would give EB.

Ranger/War Cleric gives all Martial Weps.

So Ranger and War Cleric 1 are better options than Fighter 1 (no surprise there), but Warlock is probably worse. EB would key off of Charisma for attacking, increasing the MADness. On the other hand, he gets 'lock on a short rest...

[Fast Jimmy]

Fighter dip is pretty terribad on a Monk, but mostly just because their other options of Warlock/Ranger/Cleric synergize much better.

All 3 of those options offer better DPR increases than a Champion would offer (average of an extra d6 or d8 on crits <<< Hunter's Mark/Hex/Divine Favor) any additional abilities that would be superior than Second Wind/Action Surge.

Warlock is a tough bid to make, though, as Charisma should be a monk's dump stat, fourth behind Dex, Wis and Con. To meet the 13 Cha you'd need to multiclass, you'd need to have a very low Con for a melee class.

Cleric is pretty solid, in terms of getting some solid spells and domain perks for even a one level dip, I'll agree with that.

Ranger is okay, if just for Hunter's Mark, but two levels for one spell is a hefty price. Natural Explorer and Favored Enemy are largely circumstantial bonuses, as neither do much outside of some out of combat help. None of the four fighting styles Rangers give anything to a monk, so it's another dead benefit. Plus, going two levels only gains you two spell slots, which means you can cast the spell twice. Granted it's an hour long and can be transferred to any target you hit within that hour, but it's quite likely that you'll burn through those and not have the benefit for every fight.


All that being said... I didn't say Monk X/Fighter 3 was the greatest MC option for the Monk, just that I thought it would be worth going the extra level if anyone was already dipping 1 or 2 levels in.

[Fast Jimmy]

I would like to point out that the Fghter 1 dip does give access to the longbow for normal use, as well as to magical crossbows (which otherwise aren't really worth it). That longbow opens up the range of the monk to 150' without disadvantage and 600' with. Coupled with the monk getting significant bonuses to ranged combat through Deflext Missiles, Step of the Wind, and the massive movement bonuses, that proficiency gives access to a world of ranged options.

Of course, that becomes null conpared to other dips. Ranger (and War Cleric? I'm less familiar with them) gives that proficiency with Hunter's Mark. My argument is simply that due to the expanded range options, Fighter 1 does give something.

Yes, but Longbow is not a monk weapon, so it does not scale or benefit from the Monk's class bonuses such as Ki-Empowered strikes. In addition, you lose any benefit from Martial Arts as well. Shadow Monk could do okay with this, but at this point, you are just a high-movement Ranger in my mind.

[Fast Jimmy]

So Ranger and War Cleric 1 are better options than Fighter 1 (no surprise there), but Warlock is probably worse. EB would key off of Charisma for attacking, increasing the MADness. On the other hand, he gets 'lock on a short rest...

Why is Ranger 1 better than Fighter 1? Second Wind and Con Saves (while not earth shattering) are better than Natural Explorer and Favored Enemy.

Ranger 2 is better than Fighter 2 (although the Fighter 2 is no slouch with Action Surge), because you get Ranger spells, but for a one level dip, I'd say Fighter eeks out a win.

[RickAllison]

Yes, but Longbow is not a monk weapon, so it does not scale or benefit from the Monk's class bonuses such as Ki-Empowered strikes. In addition, you lose any benefit from Martial Arts as well. Shadow Monk could do okay with this, but at this point, you are just a high-movement Ranger in my mind.

For ranged, you aren't getting that anyway. This is compared to the short bow, which is the only comparable option monks have (can they use light crossbows?).

And I forgot Ranger was a half-casting class, and so don't get Hunter's Mark until 2...

[RulesJD]

Why is Ranger 1 better than Fighter 1? Second Wind and Con Saves (while not earth shattering) are better than Natural Explorer and Favored Enemy.

Ranger 2 is better than Fighter 2 (although the Fighter 2 is no slouch with Action Surge), because you get Ranger spells, but for a one level dip, I'd say Fighter eeks out a win.

Ranger 1 is better because it's required to get to Ranger 3 haha.

But just to check, are you talking about taking the Fighter dip as your 1st level? Because if not then you don't get Con save proficiency.

[Fast Jimmy]

For ranged, you aren't getting that anyway. This is compared to the short bow, which is the only comparable option monks have (can they use light crossbows?).

And I forgot Ranger was a half-casting class, and so don't get Hunter's Mark until 2...

I guess my point is... if you are going for a ranged monk... why are you doing monk at all?

[RickAllison]

I guess my point is... if you are going for a ranged monk... why are you doing monk at all?

So you can have an option for damaging while you close? To leverage Deflect Missiles in a ranged duel? To use the ability climb up walls and jump really high to exploit sniper nests?

[Fast Jimmy]

So you can have an option for damaging while you close? To leverage Deflect Missiles in a ranged duel? To use the ability climb up walls and jump really high to exploit sniper nests?

Not bad ideas, just not great ideas for the monk.

As far as closing the gap, you'd be able to do this just fine with ranged monk weapons like the short bow or dart. Dipping Fighter 1 to get a d8 bow as opposed to the d6 bow doesn't seem worth it.

In terms of sniper spots or Deflect Missiles as a dueling ability, this isn't terrible, but monk's high movement already let them hit and then get away from most enemies. And in terms of absorbing ranged damage, this is limited by how much Ki the monk can afford to spend. For my tastes, it would make more sense to burn a Ki to close he distance on the ranged attacker and force them to deal with you hand to hand, giving them disadvantage on their ranged attacks or switch to melee, rather than burn lots of points over multiple turns to absorb just a handful of damage. Especially when the Rogue can use a sniper ranged attack to reduce damage easily with Uncanny Dodge AND gain an actual tactical advantage from sniping with Sneak Attack.

Again, not bad uses of Fighter levels with monk... but I wouldn't try and use it as a stand-alone case for a Fighter 1/Monk X build.

[RickAllison]

Not bad ideas, just not great ideas for the monk.

As far as closing the gap, you'd be able to do this just fine with ranged monk weapons like the short bow or dart. Dipping Fighter 1 to get a d8 bow as opposed to the d6 bow doesn't seem worth it.

In terms of sniper spots or Deflect Missiles as a dueling ability, this isn't terrible, but monk's high movement already let them hit and then get away from most enemies. And in terms of absorbing ranged damage, this is limited by how much Ki the monk can afford to spend. For my tastes, it would make more sense to burn a Ki to close he distance on the ranged attacker and force them to deal with you hand to hand, giving them disadvantage on their ranged attacks or switch to melee, rather than burn lots of points over multiple turns to absorb just a handful of damage. Especially when the Rogue can use a sniper ranged attack to reduce damage easily with Uncanny Dodge AND gain an actual tactical advantage from sniping with Sneak Attack.

Again, not bad uses of Fighter levels with monk... but I wouldn't try and use it as a stand-alone case for a Fighter 1/Monk X build.

Most monk builds with fighter levels are really gunning for fighter 2 or 3. This was more to argue that the first fighter level does have some nice stuff for a monk, even if it's not worth the dip in its own. Mainly, the argument is that Fighter 1 is not a dead level for a monk, they do get some nice perks.

[Fast Jimmy]

Most monk builds with fighter levels are really gunning for fighter 2 or 3. This was more to argue that the first fighter level does have some nice stuff for a monk, even if it's not worth the dip in its own. Mainly, the argument is that Fighter 1 is not a dead level for a monk, they do get some nice perks.

Fair enough!

[Thalfir]

Hello there!

I really hope that I'm not bothering you and that you don't get asked this too many times but basically my Fiancée is an avid D&D fan and I'd like to join him in a game he's DM'ing. I wanted to play as a monk, as they strike me as a very interesting class too play. So I looked around for a guide as this was my first time making a character and until my copy of the handbook comes tomorrow, the PDF's are slightly confusing so I wanted it to go a little smoother. Anyway, I used your guide as a help but after finally making my char! I realised your thread on Monks was from July 2015. Do you think it'd still be current as it's all 5e or have you refined it in a way that I'd be gimping my char if i rolled with what i have? I hope this makes sense and would appreciate any correspondence in reply, thank you!

Kieron. :)

I wanted too send this to OP but his inbox is full aha, can anyone else help me. :)

[gfishfunk]

Hello there!

I really hope that I'm not bothering you and that you don't get asked this too many times but basically my Fiancée is an avid D&D fan and I'd like to join him in a game he's DM'ing. I wanted to play as a monk, as they strike me as a very interesting class too play. So I looked around for a guide as this was my first time making a character and until my copy of the handbook comes tomorrow, the PDF's are slightly confusing so I wanted it to go a little smoother. Anyway, I used your guide as a help but after finally making my char! I realised your thread on Monks was from July 2015. Do you think it'd still be current as it's all 5e or have you refined it in a way that I'd be gimping my char if i rolled with what i have? I hope this makes sense and would appreciate any correspondence in reply, thank you!

Kieron. :)

I wanted too send this to OP but his inbox is full aha, can anyone else help me. :)

Thalfir: sounds great!

The monk has not changed, nor have any of the mechanics. They have added some things through pdf downloads, but I always recommend staying in the player's handbook while learning the game either way.

1. Totally still current, not at all gimping your character.

2. Don't be afraid to ask to change your character if it does not play the way you like. My first character was a monk, and I loved it though I was entirely ineffective (bad dice rolls on all attacks, damage always very, very low; all my best rolls were for skills). My second character was a wizard. I liked that. My third character was a paladin. I hated that, and asked to change it after two sessions, and then got a fighter-rogue which I loved.

3. Take a moment to define your fun: do you like being the best and succeeding? Do you like playing a character, faults and all? Me - I'm more of a play-the-character type. I like taking a less-than-optimal action/approach if it fits the character. I really have to be careful with that when I am at a table where everyone wants to make the absolutely most optimal move possible.

[RickAllison]

Hello there!

I really hope that I'm not bothering you and that you don't get asked this too many times but basically my Fiancée is an avid D&D fan and I'd like to join him in a game he's DM'ing. I wanted to play as a monk, as they strike me as a very interesting class too play. So I looked around for a guide as this was my first time making a character and until my copy of the handbook comes tomorrow, the PDF's are slightly confusing so I wanted it to go a little smoother. Anyway, I used your guide as a help but after finally making my char! I realised your thread on Monks was from July 2015. Do you think it'd still be current as it's all 5e or have you refined it in a way that I'd be gimping my char if i rolled with what i have? I hope this makes sense and would appreciate any correspondence in reply, thank you!

Kieron. :)

I wanted too send this to OP but his inbox is full aha, can anyone else help me. :)

His information is still great! If you would like to post your build, I would be happy to help critique it when I have time.

[SharkForce]

Hello there!

I really hope that I'm not bothering you and that you don't get asked this too many times but basically my Fiancée is an avid D&D fan and I'd like to join him in a game he's DM'ing. I wanted to play as a monk, as they strike me as a very interesting class too play. So I looked around for a guide as this was my first time making a character and until my copy of the handbook comes tomorrow, the PDF's are slightly confusing so I wanted it to go a little smoother. Anyway, I used your guide as a help but after finally making my char! I realised your thread on Monks was from July 2015. Do you think it'd still be current as it's all 5e or have you refined it in a way that I'd be gimping my char if i rolled with what i have? I hope this makes sense and would appreciate any correspondence in reply, thank you!

Kieron. :)

I wanted too send this to OP but his inbox is full aha, can anyone else help me. :)

not much has changed since 2015. that said, the guide has been updated since then anyways. scroll down to the bottom of the individual posts and you'll notice the last edit was march 11, 2016 on the first one, for example.

[Thalfir]

Thank you for your replies!

In response to the first, I'm not at all concerned about being the best as the 3 other guys he'll be dm'ing are all D&D veterans in some form or another and will be playing their favoured characters from games such as Pathfinder, albeit with whatever alterations they need too, this is just me making an effort and trying too help the group in the new adventure he's setting up! So being the best isn't what I'm after, just passable usefulness, if you will aha.

How would you like me too post it. I don't have a character sheet PDF as of yet although i can procure one, so far I've been reading each section of the PDF and noting down char build dice rolls, stats etc in Notepad, with a small, notes-like character background that I'll expand on. As a student of English Literature, I'll be expanding heavily on my characters story haha. So! would you like the copy pasta of the notepad or is there a more preferable way of giving you my initial build? :)

Kieron

[gfishfunk]

Normally its something like....

Name:
Race / Background choice:
Class/subclass:

Stats: *you can also say that you are rolling stats and have not done so yet, or you are taking point buy, or going for the standard array.
Str:
Dex:
Con:
Int:
Wis:
Cha:

Starting level, desired progression (like, I'm going to pick up such and such feat at level 4....).

Bio and concept (about 1-2 paragraphs?), including how you want the story concept to play mechanically. "I would like to charge up and shoot fireballs", for example.

[Thalfir]

EDIT: All stats were rolled in accordance with the book. :)

Kivalur

Illuskanian Human Variant Sailor
Monk
Human
9 str +1
16 dex +1 (+1 from Variant)
12 con +1
7 int +1
14 wis +1 (+1 from Variant)
9 cha +1

Starting level 1.

I'll look through what progression I'd like too do, as since i cant choose a monastic tradition at level 1 i didn't look yet! :)

As i said, note-like, incredibly basic background that may include illogical situations as I know nothing about the universe and it's hidden rules and such:

monk till 30 y/o, dropped off with a travelling monk by parents who had fallen into ill favour with their Lord and didn't expect to live too see another summer.
They had but one request, if ever an opportunity came for me to take too the see, allow him too as they were sailors, its in my blood.
joined merchant crew/possibly visited to trade with monastery, asked if any monks were available to start a new path, join them as protection/see the world/spread information, Abbot suggested me.
Joined merchant ship, sailed for five years with crew, grew too bond with the crew.
Stopped at port one day and went too fetch supplies, ship had left as i returned too port, never found out why and learned that the next destination we had in mind was never visited by boat from information gathered.
Decided to return too monastery although far away, meet up somehow, story start. (Review and fix with Anthony)

[gfishfunk]

Looks solid, but there might be a bit of confusion over human v. variant human.

You will need to choose only one of the two following options:

1. Human gives +1 to all stats, which I see that you added.

2. Human variant gives +1 to only two stats, which I see you also added, and adds an additional feat and skill proficiency. If you are only looking at pdfs right now, you probably won't see the human variant stuff yet. Its in the player's handbook, though.

[Thalfir]

Looks solid, but there might be a bit of confusion over human v. variant human.

You will need to choose only one of the two following options:

1. Human gives +1 to all stats, which I see that you added.

2. Human variant gives +1 to only two stats, which I see you also added, and adds an additional feat and skill proficiency. If you are only looking at pdfs right now, you probably won't see the human variant stuff yet. Its in the player's handbook, though.

Fantastic! I DID think it was slightly OP too get both which is why i added them at the end of each line rather than incorporating them into the value straight away, thank you very much for clearing that up! I'll probably stick with variant then and adjust stats accordingly. I'm glad it looks okay though, I'll tweak it a bit when my manual comes tomorrow, thanks for your help!

[RickAllison]

Fantastic! I DID think it was slightly OP too get both which is why i added them at the end of each line rather than incorporating them into the value straight away, thank you very much for clearing that up! I'll probably stick with variant then and adjust stats accordingly. I'm glad it looks okay though, I'll tweak it a bit when my manual comes tomorrow, thanks for your help!

I'll put out a few thoughts on your options for the path in spoilers, so you don't accidentally look when you didn't mean to yet.

I'm assuming that the two SCAG paths are off the table. That is a shame, Long Death would have been friendly for a newbie with its temporary HP and survival ki ability.

For the three PHB paths, they create some interesting options.

Open Hand is probably the simplest, and meshes well with a sailor mentality. Your low Wisdom could be a problem. However. Much of the power of the Open Hand comes from the great options it adds on to Flurry of Blows. Two of those rely on saves, and your save DC is set by your Wisdom.

Shadow is the least reliant on saves, so this could be a nice path for you, if rather odd for your background. With this, you can focus on Dexterity and never worry about Wisdom outside of AC (which you are progressing in with Dex) and your Stunning Strike. I think this might be the best mechanical option for your character, but personality matters more.

That leaves 4elements. This is a mixed bag to say the least, and I would get some input from your DM. If the campaign will have a lot of water in it (naval campaigns are awesome!), Shape the Flowing River would be great enough to justify this otherwise rather touchy path. Water Whip may rely on a save, but both it and StFR could be very thematic for your background.

[Thalfir]

Okay thank you for that, what I'll do is find those that you've mentioned when my manual comes today and see which I'd prefer to work towards, and set myself up for it in my background. Writing the background is my favourite part so it should be fun to allude to what he wants his tradition to be and how it'll empower him! :)

[HPisBS]

I'd like to see this updated with the two monastic traditions from SCAG. Particularly the Sun Soul.
Who doesn't want to be a saiyan? :smallbiggrin:


(I've been thinking my most preferred combinations would be:
Sun Soul Air Genesai - for a saiyan that can blast enemies from above via Levitate
Sun Soul Aarakocra - for best stats and a saiyan that can actually fly... though I don't really want to be a short-lived birdman lol; I'd rather just use Winged Boots
Shadow Wood Elf - for best stats and even better stealth
Shadow V. Human - for Mobile feat to really make the Shadow Step feature sing... or for Skulker

I don't think any race features really enhance Open Hand or Long Death features in particular. Am I missing any combos?
Edit: I guess the mobile feat could provide insurance for those times when you're counting on your Open Hand Techniques to get you back out of trouble, but the enemies succeeded their saves. I just don't think that's quite as good of a combo as the others, though.
Edit Edit: I just found out about the Feral Winged Tiefling variant, giving 2 Dex and a base 30ft fly speed. More attractive than the Aarakocra, even though it gives 1 Int instead of Wis.

So Sun Soul Feral Winged Tiefling - for 2 Dex and a saiyan that can actually fly, plus has darkvision and resistance to fire.
Or maybe similarly altered Aasimar for 2 Dex and 1 Wis? If that's an option, then I think we've found our perfect Sun Soul.)

[N810]

....
I don't think any race features really enhance Open Hand or Long Death features in particular. Am I missing any combos?
Edit: I guess the mobile feat could provide insurance for those times when you're counting on your Open Hand Techniques to get you back out of trouble, but the enemies succeeded their saves. I just don't think that's quite as good of a combo as the others, though.

Half-Orc ... kinda...
you get an extra damage dice on crits,
and you are harder to kill, since you can go to 1hp instead of 0hp or less once per day.

but their ability score bonuses don't stack all that great with monks in general.

[RickAllison]

I'd like to see this updated with the two monastic traditions from SCAG. Particularly the Sun Soul.
Who doesn't want to be a saiyan? :smallbiggrin:


(I've been thinking my most preferred combinations would be:
Sun Soul Air Genesai - for a saiyan that can blast enemies from above via Levitate
Sun Soul Aarakocra - for best stats and a saiyan that can actually fly... though I don't really want to be a short-lived birdman lol; I'd rather just use Winged Boots
Shadow Wood Elf - for best stats and even better stealth
Shadow V. Human - for Mobile feat to really make the Shadow Step feature sing... or for Skulker

I don't think any race features really enhance Open Hand or Long Death features in particular. Am I missing any combos?
Edit: I guess the mobile feat could provide insurance for those times when you're counting on your Open Hand Techniques to get you back out of trouble, but the enemies succeeded their saves. I just don't think that's quite as good of a combo as the others, though.)

Although the ability scores don't match up as well, Long Death gnomes are great for that advantage for Int, Wis, and Cha saving throws. Between the temporary hp buffer and the ability to convert ki points to survive hp assaults, remaining free of the deleterious effects of the mental saves keeps them even harder to kill. Svirnefblin can also get that feat for additional utility.

[Davidbusta88]

Sorry to bump an old post.
New to the forum and the game and wanted to get an opinion if a catfolk build would be viable as a monk. Didnt see it listed in the original post.
The natural claws as an unarmed attack and the dex bonus seems to be a natural fit for the monk build though.
But as I said, I'm new to the game.
Thoughts?

[RickAllison]

Sorry to bump an old post.
New to the forum and the game and wanted to get an opinion if a catfolk build would be viable as a monk. Didnt see it listed in the original post.
The natural claws as an unarmed attack and the dex bonus seems to be a natural fit for the monk build though.
But as I said, I'm new to the game.
Thoughts?

There isn't an official cat folk race (though there are rumors that the jaguar-people will be in Volo's). You will have to show which homebrew you are using.

[SharkForce]

just about any race and class combination can be viable. if it has a dex bonus, that certainly helps. that said, i don't think there's an official catfolk race yet. so i have no idea if any of the other things you mentioned have any synergy. for example, if the catfolk modifies your unarmed strike, the claws are useful for a monk (grants access to a damage type with your unarmed strike that you wouldn't otherwise have). if they give you a natural weapon, it doesn't combine very well with monk at all.

[Davidbusta88]

The version I had in mind is from dandwiki
They have a catfolk race for 5e that sounded fun to work with.
Bummer it's not official. On a second look around I saw a number of other versions.
Guess as a newbie I should stick to the player handbook and stay away from new custom races to start with.
Thanks anyways

[RickAllison]

The version I had in mind is from dandwiki
They have a catfolk race for 5e that sounded fun to work with.
Bummer it's not official. On a second look around I saw a number of other versions.
Guess as a newbie I should stick to the player handbook and stay away from new custom races to start with.
Thanks anyways

As a good general rule, you can refluff PHB races and it should be fine. Elf is popular for catfolk.

[Davidbusta88]

Thanks for the tip! I had myself set on a monk class due to the unarmed style of fighting being appealing to me.
I'll look over the elf builds and see if I can adapt one. How will I know if I built it too OP though?

[RickAllison]

Thanks for the tip! I had myself set on a monk class due to the unarmed style of fighting being appealing to me.
I'll look over the elf builds and see if I can adapt one. How will I know if I built it too OP though?

If it's in the PHB, probably fine. You could also grab Aarakocra with a full 30' speed and a climb speed. Or Razorclaw from UA.

[MeeposFire]

Wood elf would make a lot of sense. Extra speed and stealth sounds like a cat oriented ability.

[MasterMercury]

I think the half-Orc is an underrated monk class. Extra crit for a class with a lot of hits, extra tankiness for a class that needs it, +1 con, and I play as a monk grappler, so the +2 str. really helps out. I love to hold two opponents still and deal heaps of damage to them with my forehead.

[Davidbusta88]

Thanks for all the advice.
This is what I have come up with to start with based on other races abilities Ive found while searching through elves and other builds online for what kinds of skills are common throughout the different races.

Obviously have to fill out the character info, but I will do that if Im even on the right track with this.
Without further ado...

Pantherinae

Ability Score Increase - +2 Dex

Age – Reach maturity 15 , live up to 100 - 125

Alignment – Lawful – Good, neutral and evil based on clan.

Size - Varies – small, medium and large based on subraces

Speed – 30 movement.

Abilities for the Pantherinae

 Dark Vision – Can see up to 60 feed in dim light
 Feline Grace – Proficient in Acrobatics and stealth. You resist all fall damage
 Claws – Retractable claws are proficient weapons – 1d4 and can attack twice if unarmed. At level 6 1 d6, level 12 1d8


Subraces

Amurr Cats (Tundra)

Ability Score Increase - +1 Str

Size – Large only

Abilities

 Thick Fur –have increased AC (+1) and resist cold damage
 Menacing – Gain proficiency in Intimidate Skill
 Relentless Endurance – Once per rest, can only be killed outright, otherwise reduced to 1 hitpoint.


Tigris

Ability Score Increase - +1 Charisma

Size – Small or medium

¬Abilities for the Tigris
 Feline Nimbleness – Pantherinae ( Small or medium only) can move through the space occupied by another creature.
 Camouflage – You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, snow, mist and other natural phenomenon.
 Pouncing Stance – May drop to all fours as a free action. Movement speed is now 40. All weapon attacks are at disadvantage.

[Davidbusta88]

DM got back to me with a catfolk race he wants to use as a base, but loved the idea of being able to build my own subraces within.
The race as its described in the errata he found has the following stats.

+2 ability score increase on wisdom.
Base walking speed of 35.
Dark vision up to 60 feet in dim light.
Proficiency in stealth and acrobatics.
Claws deal 1d4 of unarmed damage.

With those as a base, I thought of 2 subraces to add to the suhraces that were included with that build.

The one that I feel could be a fun monk build I have listed below. Please any thoughts if it would be a good idea or if I built it too strong, I'm all ears. Thanks

Subrace- Pantherinae

Ability score increase +1 to dex

Size - restricted to small and medium only

Feline nimbleness - may move through the same space occupied by another creature.

Pouncing stance - may take a free action to drop to all 4s. Movement speed increases to 40. May not be performed with a weapon drawn or while wearing armor exceeding light armor. Melee attacks against you are taken with advantage while in this stance.

Pouncing strike- While in pouncing stance, may lash out at 1 target with both claws.

Pouncing Lunge - While in pouncing stance, you attempt to knock a target prone. Target must pass a strength check. On a fail, target is prone and suffers 1d8. Targets larger than you have advantage on strength check.

[RakiReborn]

You are new to the Forum i think, but if you want feedback to your homebrew, i'd suggest you make a thread under the Homebrew section of the forum with the 5th ed tag. This way this thread stays for what it was intended (the Monk guide), and you have more chance to get feedback from experienced homebrewers ;)

[Davidbusta88]

You are new to the Forum i think, but if you want feedback to your homebrew, i'd suggest you make a thread under the Homebrew section of the forum with the 5th ed tag. This way this thread stays for what it was intended (the Monk guide), and you have more chance to get feedback from experienced homebrewers ;)

I apologize. Started the convo by asking about how a catfolk build would fit into the ranking provided in the OP. When they asked which build specifically, as there was no official one provided, I kinda got side tracked and made my own.
I can relocate it to a new thread.

[Birdperson1]

So I've had this multiclass idea for a level 20. Or requires getting creative with a back story and optionally one magical item. Aarakocra Monk 15 Open hand or sun monk, Wizard 5 bladesinging or divination. If the DM oks it, headband of intellect Would that be stupid? Is that giving up too much in the monk class? I've thought a lot on it but I need to be sure I thought of everything.

[RickAllison]

So I've had this multiclass idea for a level 20. Or requires getting creative with a back story and optionally one magical item. Aarakocra Monk 15 Open hand or sun monk, Wizard 5 bladesinging or divination. If the DM oks it, headband of intellect Would that be stupid? Is that giving up too much in the monk class? I've thought a lot on it but I need to be sure I thought of everything.

What are you trying to accomplish with it? As a multiclass, it works fine (you miss out on Quivering Palm and some nice monk abilities at higher levels, but you get what are arguably the most important), but it might be awkward to reach the point where it feels that way. Is this for dropping in at a higher level, or are you okay with the concept not being fully realized for a while?

[Birdperson1]

So I've had this multiclass idea for a level 20. Or requires getting creative with a back story and optionally one magical item. Aarakocra Monk 15 Open hand or sun monk, Wizard 5 bladesinging or divination. If the DM oks it, headband of intellect Would that be stupid? Is that giving up too much in the monk class? I've thought a lot on it but I need to be sure I thought of everything.



What are you trying to accomplish with it? As a multiclass, it works fine (you miss out on Quivering Palm and some nice monk abilities at higher levels, but you get what are arguably the most important), but it might be awkward to reach the point where it feels that way. Is this for dropping in at a higher level, or are you okay with the concept not being fully realized for a while?

What I would most want is haste without having to depend on a wizard. There's this idea I have of making my armor class over thirty. Let's say you find a headband of intelligence so that your INT is 19. Then when you make it to 14 or 15 you dip two levels into bladesinger and get the "add INT to AC for 1 minute" plus some other things. At that level, a monks armor should be 19 then add the +4 from the bladesong, then as a reaction cast shield, bam you have an AC of 29, 31 after the next adility score improv and have haste at wizard 5. Along with an extra attack and advantage on Dex throws.

There's also absorb elements in case you fail a Dexter save from a spell only taking a quarter of the damage. There's also the cantrips from sword coast guide that require a melee weapon attack, which adds a another die or two to the attack which is nice. I'm sure there's other things but those are my mains.

If I was only considering dipping 2 into wizard, I wouldn't really need to ask. But since I'm suggesting 5 it's a another thing. Having quivering palm is pretty sweet as well as empty body. Then there's d10 unarmed and additional movement, more points.

Is there more to gain from one or the other? Or are do they both work about the same?

I suppose my question comes from someone who is less experienced in D&D and I would like to know from an experienced viewpoint.

[MeeposFire]

What I would most want is haste without having to depend on a wizard. There's this idea I have of making my armor class over thirty. Let's say you find a headband of intelligence so that your INT is 19. Then when you make it to 14 or 15 you dip two levels into bladesinger and get the "add INT to AC for 1 minute" plus some other things. At that level, a monks armor should be 19 then add the +4 from the bladesong, then as a reaction cast shield, bam you have an AC of 29, 31 after the next adility score improv and have haste at wizard 5. Along with an extra attack and advantage on Dex throws.

There's also absorb elements in case you fail a Dexter save from a spell only taking a quarter of the damage. There's also the cantrips from sword coast guide that require a melee weapon attack, which adds a another die or two to the attack which is nice. I'm sure there's other things but those are my mains.

If I was only considering dipping 2 into wizard, I wouldn't really need to ask. But since I'm suggesting 5 it's a another thing. Having quivering palm is pretty sweet as well as empty body. Then there's d10 unarmed and additional movement, more points.

Is there more to gain from one or the other? Or are do they both work about the same?

I suppose my question comes from someone who is less experienced in D&D and I would like to know from an experienced viewpoint.

Personally I would think its madness hurts it a bit and what you are getting is so late I would personally not think it worth it. I mean adding wizard means you are going to have to have 13 int, and for this concept you still want to max wis and dex. Further being still in melee con si still important. That is a lot of stats to juggle and you have to find a specific item to make it work ok. For me that is way too many issues.

Booming blade damage is ok but not great (a bit better if you can force the extra damage but since you need so man stats mobile is probably out and that is not a for sure way of getting that bonus damage either). Further it only allows one attack which means less chances at stunning which is usually the monks best tactic.

If you really want AC you could just ask for bracers of armor. It only gives +2 but it is always there compared to your +4 twice a short rest. Combine that fact with the extra monk abilities (or other classes that are easier to integrate with the monk class) and I think generally that is a better option unless wizardry is a fluff thing you really want.

[Citan]

What I would most want is haste without having to depend on a wizard. There's this idea I have of making my armor class over thirty. Let's say you find a headband of intelligence so that your INT is 19. Then when you make it to 14 or 15 you dip two levels into bladesinger and get the "add INT to AC for 1 minute" plus some other things. At that level, a monks armor should be 19 then add the +4 from the bladesong, then as a reaction cast shield, bam you have an AC of 29, 31 after the next adility score improv and have haste at wizard 5. Along with an extra attack and advantage on Dex throws.

There's also absorb elements in case you fail a Dexter save from a spell only taking a quarter of the damage. There's also the cantrips from sword coast guide that require a melee weapon attack, which adds a another die or two to the attack which is nice. I'm sure there's other things but those are my mains.

If I was only considering dipping 2 into wizard, I wouldn't really need to ask. But since I'm suggesting 5 it's a another thing. Having quivering palm is pretty sweet as well as empty body. Then there's d10 unarmed and additional movement, more points.

Is there more to gain from one or the other? Or are do they both work about the same?

I suppose my question comes from someone who is less experienced in D&D and I would like to know from an experienced viewpoint.
Hi!

Well, if you are sure you will get a Headband providing 19 Intelligence not too late in your game, then this is a good build. Note though that until you get it, you will probably have lesser defenses than a normal Monk because you have to crank Intelligence up to 13 in addition to the usual Dex (armor, initiative, attack), Con (important for all, EVEN MORE important for you to maintain Haste) and Wis (Stunning Strike, AC, saves).
Although Bladesinger will somewhat compensate...

Let's say you take a Human Monk, with point buy + racial 10 STR / 16 DEX / 14 CON / 14 INT / 15 WIS / 9 CHA

AC: either Unarmored 15 (10+3+2) or Mage Armor 16 (13+3). +2 from Bladesong, and occasional Shield.
Once you take Resilient: Wisdom, you get a decent DC for your Stunning Strike and Open Hand free abilities.

If you want to balance as much as possible this is the best way to go imo.

Another way to go is to drop the whole WIS part (although why go Open Hand Monk then, or any Monk at all) and INT part to focus on Dexterity and Constitution. But in that case, I would rather advise at least Diviner Wizard, Lucky and another Monk archetype: you still get Haste, Lucky and Diviner will help land Stunning Strike when you really need it, and you can otherwise spend your Ki on defense (class feature), utility (Shadow) or damage/utility (4E).

But, honestly, if the main reason of multiclassing is Haste, the best choice by far is Grassland Land Druid.
1. You get Haste... Along with plenty other good spells, including Conjure Animals, Faerie Fire, Healing Words, Goodberry, etc.
2. It's only WIS dependant so you don't aggravate your Madness.
3. You get Shillelagh and nice cantrips so you can boost your Wisdom first, so in fact you reduce somewhat your Madness, improving your overall efficiency (Stunning Strike, FoB effects).
4. Because you are no more MAD than usual, or even a bit less, it will be easy to cope with the lesser amount of ASI, and you can easily grab Resilient: Constitution or Warcaster along the way to help with Haste.

I would even recommend you to sacrifice one more level of Monk to dip Forge Cleric 1 (if allowed) or Life Cleric 1, and dip it early. This way you get a great use of your concentration ASAP, which helps you be WIS-only dependent, and you even get to still have Shield.

Progression:
1. Monk.
2. Monk.
3. Arcane Cleric, to get Bless and Sacred Flame (nice ranged cantrip).
4. Monk.
5. Monk. +2 WIS or Resilient: Wisdom depending on starting stat.
6. Monk. Because you want to get Extra Attack ASAP.
7. Druid. So now you can get Shillelagh and switch to it, you get pull control with Thorn Whip and ranged attack with Produce Flame. The additional spell slots can be used on Shield (Forge), Goodberries (Life) or more Bless.
8. Monk. Because it's important now to get magical Strikes.
9. Monk. Because Evasion is great.
10. Druid. Now you aim for Haste.
11. Druid (Invisibility! Pass Without Trace!)
12. Druid
13.Druid. Now you have Haste.
You can finish Monk, with Diamond Soul (proficiency in all saves) as a capstone, not the worse to have. ;)

[kelticpete]

forgive my ignorance..or not.

but what is MAD?

used a few times as acronym

[Fishyninja]

Multi-Ability Dependent

Normally reserved for characters that need to utilise multiple stats. For a Monk it is Dex for attack, Initiative and AC. Wisdom for Spell Saves and AC and Constitution for Health.

[HPisBS]

Man, now there's even more archetypes to evaluate. In addition to the Sun Soul and Long Death, there's also Tranquility and Kensei. I'm not too impressed with the Kensei, but Tranquility seems pretty great. If the OP doesn't update his post, I may do my own guide for all of them.

Tranquility basically gets the Open Hand's lvl 6 and 11 features at lvl 3 -- but upgraded to what they should've been for the Open Hand from the start! To counterbalance this, Tranquility's lvl 6 and 11 features only exist to prevent combat (or perhaps delay it while your allies get better situated). I'm also not too thrilled with the fact that the capstone is a once / rest ability that can only be used after an enemy downs someone - and then only on that enemy. But even so, it can still be fairly powerful.

The monk I'm playing has already meditated his way through a transition from Open Hand to Tranquility :smallsmile: (The Non-Aggression Principle was already built into my character.)

[Specter]

A good guide. Some things you can improve:

- The three dump stats (STR, INT, CHA) should have the same rating (red), as long as you explain what you miss with each. Low STR means low athletics and caryying capacity, low INT means low knowledge checks and low CHA means low face potential. If people are ok with that, they can always start with 8-15-15-8-15-8.
- Any race that doesn't boost DEX shouldn't be blue. CON and WIS are both great, but as a monk you should always be hitting dudes and dodging blows, and starting with a 15 in it is not an option.
- Some features lack description, as the general monk tactics. It's important to mention that monks are the heaviest bonus-action users, and how to strategize upon that with ki and kiless features. Once you get Deflect Missiles, you don't have to fear single archers anymore, as long as you save your reaction. And so on.
- Comparing the subclasses to one another the way you did is not accurate and even if it were, it's way too simplistic. 'Open Hand > Shadow > 4Em' is not enough. Open Hand gives you the most in terms of melee strategy and party coordination. Shadow gives you amazing scout potential and amazing dodginess outside of daylight, along with more multiclass potential. 4 Elements is not pigeonholed to punching people, being able to deal different damage types and attacking at range and many enemies. Only analyzing white-room scenarios doesn't cut it in a game as varied as this one.

[Gydian]

I've read mane class analysis and many monk analysis. I like yours the best. Have you thought about updating it to include scag and the other new stuff? Maybe even ua?

[polymphus]

I've read mane class analysis and many monk analysis. I like yours the best. Have you thought about updating it to include scag and the other new stuff? Maybe even ua?
OP if you choose to do this, here's the new stuff:

UA

Way of the Drunken Master (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UAThreeSubclasses.pdf)
(pretty schizophrenic archetype, decent nova potential)
Way of the Kensei
(http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-RevisedSubclasses.pdf)(use martial weapons! Get a d10 shortbow!)
Way of Tranquility (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/M_2016_UAMonk1_12_12WKWT.pdf)
(some social stuff, some healing, some support magic)

SCAG

Way of the Long Death
(Show those Paladins how to tank)
Way of the Sun Soul
(HADOUKEN! Makes the monk more of a ranged skirmisher)

Volo's

Most of the races would make pretty terrible monks, with some notable exceptions

Kenku: Wood Elf stats, extra proficiencies that make a great shadow monk.
Tabaxi: +2 Dex is amazing, +1CHA less so. Good proficiencies for a Shadow Monk, like the kenku. Darkvision and Feline Agility rounds out a decent monk race.
Goblin: it's weird how good this is for a monk. +2 Dex and a Con bonus is nothing to sneeze at, and you get the best part of Cunning Action without having to do a rogue dip. Fury of the Small hypothetically lets you deal 35 damage in a single punch and that's pretty much the monk-est thing ever.
Kobold: a weird choice. +2 Dex is good, but you can get it elsewhere. -2 Str isn't gonna hurt you too badly (you're a monk -- just Dex it) and Pack Tactics is amazing for a monk but that sunlight sensitivity is a problem. I'm not sure how grovelling for your life works when you're meant to be a serene martial artist but I'd like to see somebody try.

[polymphus]

Alrighty, let's break down some monk stuff that isn't in the OP.

SCAG Archetypes

Way of the Long Death
A very powerful archetype that turns the monk into a solid tank. Combined with Unarmored Defence, it's an almost-guarantee that when you do get hit, it won't hurt too much.

Touch of Death
Your meat and potatoes. Always have a buffer of temporary HP.

Hour of Reaping
Could potentially rate sky blue since it's an AoE fear spell that costs nothing, but it uses your action and the monk's action economy is already rather overcrowded. Some nice crowd control, though, and makes you even harder to kill.

Mastery of Death
If you have ki left, you can't die. Amazing. Pair it with Diamond Soul and Touch of Death, you're pretty much indestructible.

Touch of the Long Death
Objectively worse than Quivering Palm -- costs more, does less damage, can't be detonated remotely, doesn't fit in with the rest of the Tradition. Still a decent Nova but there are better options.

---

Way of the Sun Soul
Very cool flavour, mediocre gameplay. Almost seems like an attempt at a revised Four Elements and fulfils a similar gameplay role.

Radiant Sun Bolt
It's your punch, but with a better damage type and a 30 foot range. You can only get your bonus action attacks if you (Sun Bolt) flurry but hey, you can still flurry. Best part of the Tradition, but it's all downhill from here. Basically the only thing saving the archetype from a purple rating.

Searing Arc Strike
At lvl6, you get a 1st level wizard spell that costs ki. Forgive me for not cheering. It's pretty cool that it's a bonus action and you can pump it with extra ki, but it's worse than the spells Shadow Monk gets at lvl3.

Searing Sunburst
Oh hey, it's Searing Arc Strike except using flaming sphere, and at lvl11. Okay, that's sort of a lie -- it doesn't cost any resources, it deals radiant damage, and it has an acceptable AoE. It doesn't cost ki unless you want to pump it up, but by level 11 you're gonna need to pump it up or it's basically worthless. By this point, your party wizard is hurling out bigger 8d6 blasts like it ain't no thing. You could do more damage by punching and/or throwing hadoukens.

Sun Shield
Other archetypes get better auras at a much lower level, but it's still nothing to sniff at. There's some situational but powerful uses for what is essentially a Light Cantrip+, and free damage is free damage. Kinda sucks that it's restricted by requiring a reaction -- 5-10 extra radiant per turn, only when you get hit is not that great.

---

Unearthed Arcana

Way of the Drunken Master
Mobile and good at dealing with hordes. It's not bad per-se, but it competes with Open Palm for a lot of the same ground and it just isn't as good.

Drunken Technique
Cool. Allows powerful hit-and-run attacks BUT hampered by its ki requirement and worse than Open Hand Technique for the same cost.

Tipsy Sway
Archetype features that are once per rest need to be pretty powerful and this ... isn't. Requires you to be fighting two people at once, and even then is only useful 1) if one of them misses and 2) if the attack that missed was powerful to begin with.

Drunkard's Luck
Pair with Diamond Soul, never fail a saving throw again. Requires you to decide before rolling and has a ki cost, so you need to save it for important rolls.

Intoxicated Frenzy
Well damn, that's a lot of punches. Tied in with your Flurry of Blows but if you've got to lvl17 you've got ki falling out of your eyes. Like your tipsy sway, only really useful if you're fighting a large group of enemies but much more useful in those circumstances.

---

Way of the Kensei
This one is almost certainly getting an official release in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, which is cool. A nice mix of offence and defence, with some ki-hungry nova potential. Who doesn't want a monk with a battleaxe?

Path of the Kensei
Greatly increases what counts as a 'monk weapon', which can lead to some cool flavour. Also allows you to pack a shortbow that scales with your martial arts table, greatly extending your range. Gets worse as you level up, since a monk shortsword becomes identical to a longsword at lvl11, but still a lot of fun. Allows for hilarious weapons like a d10 blowgun or whip. The parry and bonus-action-bow-buff are just gravy.

One with the Blade
Burn ki for extra damage. Combine with flurry of blows for some crazy nova. Magical weapons is nice too.

Sharpen the Blade
Remember when I said you could get some crazy nova going? Well this is more of that. The ki-to-damage cost sucks, though. Uses your valuable bonus action, and often it would just be better to punch twice.

Unerring Accuracy
Do I really need to explain why this is good? It's essentially no-cost advantage, once per turn.

---

Way of Tranquility
Cool in theory, pretty disappointing in terms of application. Very MAD, seems weaker than just doing a 2-dip into bard or paladin and those weren't amazing multiclasses.

Path of Tranquility
Better than the Open Palm's 11th-level feature (repeatable, and you control the casting), and significantly earlier. Even for free though, Sanctuary just isn't a great spell.

Healing Hands
It's the Paladin's Lay on Hands with a larger pool. It was good at 5xlevel, it's great at 10xlevel.

Emissary of Peace
A free charisma skill proficiency and advantage on some persuasion checks. Cool I guess, if you pumped your charisma.

Douse of the Flames of War
"Oh look this seems cool and ... automatically succeeds if it's missing any of its hit points." It's a garbage Charm Person, but at least it doesn't cost ki? I'd expect more at lvl11 than a slightly buffed Friends cantrip.

Anger of a Gentle Soul
Cool when you get it, but the trigger condition is reliant on your party doing something horribly wrong. Better if your party sucks or your DM is particularly cruel.

[Spacehamster]

For a very specific build pole arm master becomes blue, 1 fighter /19 monk with dueling style, makes your attacks at 2nd level (1fighter/1monk) 1d6 + 5 and 1d4 + 5 bonus action the + 2 to damage "upgrades" your d6 and d4 die to equal of d10 and d8 respectively. And you can ofc still do a flurry for two bonus attacks with your body instead when needed, gets even more powerful if you get your hands on a good magic staff. :)

[werescythe]

This thread really needs an update. A lot of races have been added and along with racial feats.

[redtwister666]

Creating two Monks for a game I am joining. One is Aarakocra Way of the Long Death, but I haven't talked to the GM since I got the invite and they can be pretty busted. So I also made a Ghostwise Halfling Way of the Open Hand, but I am not sure it is much less broken :smallbiggrin:

I would love to see some updates to this from live players. Monk seems much better as a class, despite MAD, than it was in any previous edition, and this makes me happy.