High Power (non-full caster) classes / feats that aren't homebrewed

[SangoProduction]

The GM banned full casters, and is expecting a "high power" game...and doesn't like optimization. These seem somewhat contradictory...But I am interested in the premise of the campaign, so I still want to at least give it a go for a session or 2.

He banned full casters, so it's unlikely I'll be able to use the...Tome of Battle?... as well as that new martial book thingy, but I'm asking if I can, anyway. Just in case they aren't allowed, what are some "strong" things that aren't like "optimized" (probably meaning, he doesn't want too many things that just stack on top of each other, is what I'm taking away from it).

I think I wouldn't mind playing a Bard, as far as Core is concerned, though I'm open to suggestions. The race I'm going to be playing will have a heavy focus on Dex, and free Weapon Finesse, which makes me think I should go rogue, but I'm not sure. I hear it's not exactly...good.

As well, how could I possibly get as many attacks as possible out of a single natural attack (like a bite)? Failing that, can someone point me to a grappling guide book. Grappling can't possibly be seen as optimized, even when it's optimized, so I think I could go for that.

EDIT: Level cap of 6; every 5000 xp earned past that point may be spent on epic feats.

[Nifft]

Ask about Tome of Battle. They're not casters, and they're not as powerful as casters, so it's both adhering to the spirit and the letter of the rules.

Binders (from Tome of Magic) can be quite good, especially with the summon-anything Web vestige.

Warlock 12 / Chameleon 2 is a decent substitute for an Artificer.

Changeling Ranger 4 / Warshaper 4 / Chameleon 10 is fun.

[Milo v3]

Well, tome of battle shouldn't be banned since they are around bard level of power. As for high power.... best you can get without full-casters is probably mid-power options like bard, binder, beguiler, dread necromancer, and psychic warrior.

[SangoProduction]

Ask about Tome of Battle. They're not casters, and they're not as powerful as casters, so it's both adhering to the spirit and the letter of the rules.


Well, tome of battle shouldn't be banned since they are around bard level of power. As for high power.... best you can get without full-casters is probably mid-power options like bard, binder, beguiler, dread necromancer, and psychic warrior.

They are? That's good. I put that information into my request. (I am unfamiliar with ToB, so I honestly don't know...I also don't play at high OP, so it'd be hard to tell, even if I was.)

[SangoProduction]

Changeling Ranger 4 / Warshaper 4 / Chameleon 10 is fun.

I think I really like that build

[OldTrees1]

Staggering Strike(from Complete Adventurer) makes foes hit with a melee sneak attack have a Fort Save(DC scales with damage) or be staggered for 1 round. Works well with ToB classes.

[SangoProduction]

Staggering Strike(from Complete Adventurer) makes foes hit with a melee sneak attack have a Fort Save(DC scales with damage) or be staggered for 1 round. Works well with ToB classes.

That's pretty decent. Prevents them from making full-attacks on me.

[OldTrees1]

That's pretty decent. Prevents them from making full-attacks on me.

What level are you starting at? You might be looking at Combat Reflexes + Evasive Reflexes + Robilar's Gambit. However that requires +12BAB and the lower level version, Karmic Strike, costs 2 extra feats(Combat Expertise and Dodge).

[SangoProduction]

What level are you starting at? You might be looking at Combat Reflexes + Evasive Reflexes + Robilar's Gambit. However that requires +12BAB and the lower level version, Karmic Strike, costs 2 extra feats(Combat Expertise and Dodge).

First Level. But we get 1 trait. Expected to get to epic, I think?

[Socratov]

I second the warlock suggestion since it's not too powerful, but can contribute more then enough (when built right around versatility instead of damage). As a matter of fact, for tips you can look here... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265455-The-Newest-Warlock-Handbook-3-5)

other great options are shadowcaster (tome of magic), though a full caster, doesn't nearly get so much spell and uses as you'd think. And maybe try some meldshaping or psionics...

[SangoProduction]

I second the warlock suggestion since it's not too powerful, but can contribute more then enough (when built right around versatility instead of damage). As a matter of fact, for tips you can look here... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265455-The-Newest-Warlock-Handbook-3-5)

other great options are shadowcaster (tome of magic), though a full caster, doesn't nearly get so much spell and uses as you'd think. And maybe try some meldshaping or psionics...
I've considered those, but they both kinda feel a tad lackluster, with Warlock edging quite a bit ahead.

On an unrelated note: is Inhuman Reach good for gaining +5 ft of natural reach for a -1 to melee attack to-hit rolls? (I'm already probably going to pick up Aberration Blood for the grapple bonus, so consider it to not have a feat tax, but I might like the reach in case grappling really isn't a good option, such as the enemy being bigger than me, or there are too many enemies.)

[Nifft]

other great options are shadowcaster (tome of magic), though a full caster, doesn't nearly get so much spell and uses as you'd think.
Shadowcaster seems like the opposite of what he wants -- it is a full caster, but it's terribly under-powered.


I've considered those, but they both kinda feel a tad lackluster, with Warlock edging quite a bit ahead. One nice trick with a Warlock is to go Warlock X / Binder 1 / Hellfire Warlock 3.

It's got some hitting power, but it's not as flexible as a straight-up Binder.


On an unrelated note: is Inhuman Reach good for gaining +5 ft of natural reach for a -1 to melee attack to-hit rolls? (I'm already probably going to pick up Aberration Blood for the grapple bonus, so consider it to not have a feat tax, but I might like the reach in case grappling really isn't a good option, such as the enemy being bigger than me, or there are too many enemies.) Could be. What's the rest of your build?

[Jormengand]

I'm surprised no-one's said Psion yet. :smalltongue:

Alternatively, Binder with access to the online vestiges approaches sorcerer levels of power.

[defiantdan]

What does he mean by Full caster? So far I see quite a few suggestions that are full casters. Bards included. Is he aiming more for fixed list, no 9's kind of casting? In a campaign like that I would probably just go charger barbarian or hulking hurler. Wildshaping Ranger would do quite well. If you're allowed Templates turn into major turning points for power. Feral, Saint and Dark Creatures are amazing templates to get. LA heavy races also turn into some more powerful options.

[Ruethgar]

Martial Monkn pulling from the Commander Fighter list for Leadership at level 1. Bard and White Raven from there to boost your followers. Would also suggest a different race, Magic Blooded Unseelie Lesser Assimar in this case for +6 to Cha. Nix the Unseelie and go Draconic levels for a different flavor if you wish.

[ahenobarbi]

Artificier? It's not a caster but get's access to all the caster goodies (because it can craft magic items without casting spells, gets magic items creation feats as bonus feats and doesn't have to burn XP to craft items) as long as you get anything close to WBL.

[SangoProduction]

What does he mean by Full caster? So far I see quite a few suggestions that are full casters. Bards included. Is he aiming more for fixed list, no 9's kind of casting? In a campaign like that I would probably just go charger barbarian or hulking hurler. Wildshaping Ranger would do quite well. If you're allowed Templates turn into major turning points for power. Feral, Saint and Dark Creatures are amazing templates to get. LA heavy races also turn into some more powerful options.

I think he means no casters that can get level 9 spells. Not positive, but I think so. And yeah, those templates are pretty amazing. Dark maybe not so much sense we can already get Hide in Plain Sight via Chameleon. I do like how a Saint's damage reduction is penetrated by evil...OK, great, so the best value for your buck then would be to instead fight good creatures, right? lol. Meh. Don't think I'd pick up Saint. I don't like the fluff of it. Feral makes sense for my character, so I'd see if it'd be allowed.

[Milo v3]

What does he mean by Full caster? So far I see quite a few suggestions that are full casters. Bards included. Is he aiming more for fixed list, no 9's kind of casting? In a campaign like that I would probably just go charger barbarian or hulking hurler. Wildshaping Ranger would do quite well. If you're allowed Templates turn into major turning points for power. Feral, Saint and Dark Creatures are amazing templates to get. LA heavy races also turn into some more powerful options.

Full caster means 9th level casters. Bard is not a full caster.

[defiantdan]

I think he means no casters that can get level 9 spells. Not positive, but I think so. And yeah, those templates are pretty amazing. Dark maybe not so much sense we can already get Hide in Plain Sight via Chameleon. I do like how a Saint's damage reduction is penetrated by evil...OK, great, so the best value for your buck then would be to instead fight good creatures, right? lol. Meh. Don't think I'd pick up Saint. I don't like the fluff of it. Feral makes sense for my character, so I'd see if it'd be allowed.

They were just general recommendations for cost to value of template. Other recommendations depends on source availability.

Arctic (dragmag 306), Half Minotaur (313), Mineral Warrior (Und), Unseelie Fey(compendium), Phrenic(XPH), Draconic(RotD).

There are other templates that have LA: - ; but I doubt you will be able to get approval for them.

As for other classes. Duskblades and psychic warriors are great gish in a box. Psy wars have the famous king of smack builds. Great for High powered games while being pretty simple in terms of optimization plus talashora monk/psy warriors make great grapplers.

[SangoProduction]

They were just general recommendations for cost to value of template. Other recommendations depends on source availability.

Arctic (dragmag 306), Half Minotaur (313), Mineral Warrior (Und), Unseelie Fey(compendium), Phrenic(XPH), Draconic(RotD).

There are other templates that have LA: - ; but I doubt you will be able to get approval for them.

As for other classes. Duskblades and psychic warriors are great gish in a box. Psy wars have the famous king of smack builds. Great for High powered games while being pretty simple in terms of optimization plus talashora monk/psy warriors make great grapplers.

looks good.

[SangoProduction]

OK. Apparently "levels" stop at level 6, and instead after that point every 5000 xp can be spent on epic feats...ok....not sure how I feel about that.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Oh, you're playing E6! That changes everything.


If that's what you're doing, I would highly, highly recommend that your GM look at either Rizban's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?273643-3-5-E6-Rizban-s-E6-Compendium) or Gnorman's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?250820-Gnorman-s-Complete-E6-Compendium) E6 compendium as they're classes INTENDED for E6 play, while ordinary classes aren't. In all honesty, I would recommend Gnorman's stuff over Rizban's. Gnorman's classes are more "plug and play", while Rizban's are more for the optimiser.

[Jormengand]

Oh, well, then, Tome of Battle immediately wipes the floor with most casters in E6. It's basically what happens when you take a Magus, give it full BAB because you can, make it a bit stronger with the kind of spells it gets, let it recover its spells faster, and declare it's Totally Not A Spellcaster Guys.

[Flickerdart]

Oh, you're playing E6! That changes everything.


If that's what you're doing, I would highly, highly recommend that your GM look at either Rizban's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?273643-3-5-E6-Rizban-s-E6-Compendium) or Gnorman's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?250820-Gnorman-s-Complete-E6-Compendium) E6 compendium as they're classes INTENDED for E6 play, while ordinary classes aren't. In all honesty, I would recommend Gnorman's stuff over Rizban's. Gnorman's classes are more "plug and play", while Rizban's are more for the optimiser.
E6 doesn't change much at all, since most classes are either front-loaded and work fine (like Monk) or are loaded at all levels (like Wizard).

Really, the only change E6 introduces that matters is level adjustment being absorbed into point buy. This lets you do things like pick up templates which amortize the PB loss with a little extra on top, so much of the time it's worth it to pick up an LA+1 or LA+2 race.

[SangoProduction]

Really, the only change E6 introduces that matters is level adjustment being absorbed into point buy. This lets you do things like pick up templates which amortize the PB loss with a little extra on top, so much of the time it's worth it to pick up an LA+1 or LA+2 race.

I understand that since full casters not being a thing means taking LA is less punishing, but can you tell me why LA is good because of p6?

[Jormengand]

I understand that since full casters not being a thing means taking LA is less punishing, but can you tell me why LA is good because of p6?

Put simply, it doesn't adjust your level, only your point buy. If it grants straight stat boosts that are worth more points than it costs you, plus other stuff, then it's worth it.

[Flickerdart]

I understand that since full casters not being a thing means taking LA is less punishing, but can you tell me why LA is good because of p6?
E6 converts level adjustment from "you lose levels" to "you get less PB." So a normal character is supposed to get 32PB, a +1 LA character gets 25, a +2 LA character gets 18, and so on. If you choose a race with good ability score modifiers, you can break even or even end up ahead, plus a little extra in terms of racial abilities.

For example, a mineral warrior gets +2 to STR, +4 to CON, and -2 to the mental stats. For a melee tank who wants to boost his CON as high as possible, this is a great deal. He loses 7 points of PB for the +1 LA, and the -6 mental stat penalties cost 6 points to cancel out. But he only has to put 14s into STR and CON (a 6-point value each) to get a 16 (a 10 point value) and an 18 (a 16 point value). In total, his positive adjustments save him 14 points, 1 point higher than the 13 points he sacrificed to become a mineral warrior and cancel out its drawbacks. Plus he gets cool features on top!

Of course, this still predisposes a character to his race's path of least resistance, and mineral warrior is an exceptionally powerful template, but this works just as well with other ones.

[SangoProduction]

Put simply, it doesn't adjust your level, only your point buy. If it grants straight stat boosts that are worth more points than it costs you, plus other stuff, then it's worth it.

huh? How does it affect point buy? Sorry I am a complete noob as far as LA goes, let alone LA + E6

[SangoProduction]

E6 converts level adjustment from "you lose levels" to "you get less PB." So a normal character is supposed to get 32PB, a +1 LA character gets 25, a +2 LA character gets 18, and so on. If you choose a race with good ability score modifiers, you can break even or even end up ahead, plus a little extra in terms of racial abilities.

For example, a mineral warrior gets +2 to STR, +4 to CON, and -2 to the mental stats. For a melee tank who wants to boost his CON as high as possible, this is a great deal. He loses 7 points of PB for the +1 LA, and the -6 mental stat penalties cost 6 points to cancel out. But he only has to put 14s into STR and CON (a 6-point value each) to get a 16 (a 10 point value) and an 18 (a 16 point value). In total, his positive adjustments save him 14 points, 1 point higher than the 13 points he sacrificed to become a mineral warrior and cancel out its drawbacks. Plus he gets cool features on top!

Of course, this still predisposes a character to his race's path of least resistance, and mineral warrior is an exceptionally powerful template, but this works just as well with other ones.

Ah, so you just lose 7 points per LA?

[Flickerdart]

Ah, so you just lose 7 points per LA?
Oddly enough, no - the original rules list +3 LA as 10 PB, and +4 LA as 0 PB. But I don't think it would ruin anything to change those to 11 PB and 4 PB respectively.

[OldTrees1]

So we are in E6. This means feat based optimization is the long term plan but feature(racial/class) based optimization is the short term plan. From my experience with feat based martial optimization, we don't want to hurt our point buy too much unless we get greater returns in the same stats. I am thinking a 14/14/12/14/08/14(28pts) is a fine point to consider.

A Dragonborn(Wings)[Races of the Dragon] Goliath[Races of Stone] would get +4 Str, -4 Dex, +4 Con and drop our point buy to 25pts. However a 14/14/12/14/08/14 would be(32pts) we could afford a 12/13/12/14/08/14(25) or a 14/14/12/14/08/09(25) though.

Alternatively a Winged Goliath would get +4Str, +2Dex, +2Con, +2Wis and 10pts. That could get a 12/14/10/14/10/08(10pts). So Dragonborn sounds like the better approach.

Then you could go Barbarian 2(Goliath Barbarian, Spirit Lion, Wolf Totem) / Warblade 4

Feature-wise you get: Flight, Large Size, A 3rd level stance, a collection of up to 3rd level maneuvers, BAB+6, and a bonus feat(Improved Trip).

Staggering Strike would take 3 feats: Martial Study(Shadow Hand), Martial Stance(Assassin's Stance), and Staggering Strike
Knock-down would take 1 feat since you already have the prerequisite(Improved Trip)
Knockback would take 3 feats: Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, and Knockback
Combat Reflexes -> Evasive Reflexes -> Combat Expertise, Dodge, and Karmic Strike is a 5 feat chain
Imperious Command could be a nice feat if you come across some Fearsome Armor, have ranks in Intimidate, and boost your Charisma to 15 with a cloak of Charisma.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Frostblood Half-Orc, Half-Humans and Humanlike races variant (RoD p150), Wildshape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) Mystic Ranger 6
Take Magical Training (PGtF, spellbook version) at 1st, Combat Reflexes at 3rd, Sword of the Arcane Order at 4th*, Extra Wild Shape at 6th, and your first extra feats after 6th should be Natural Spell and Multiattack.
*Frostblood Half-Orcs get Endurance as a racial bonus feat, which specifically says if they would get Endurance from another source they can take any feat they qualify for instead. Mystic Ranger gets Endurance at 4th instead of 3rd, which you're replacing with Sword of the Arcane Order.

That gets Ranger BAB, skills, saves, HP, etc., 0-3rd level Ranger spell slots which you can also use to prepare and cast Wizard spells from your spellbook. You can Wild Shape for up to 24 hours each day, stick to the form of a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3). Until you get Natural Spell you should stick to long duration buffs like (Greater) Mage/Luminous Armor, Endure Elements, Greater Magic Fang, Longstrider, etc. Once you have Natural Spell you can use Wraithstrike, Web, Glitterdust, etc.

[noob]

If you are going to get 500000 epic feats then crusader is awesome with his smite and martial maneuvers since he can just stack epic smite and extra smite and at the end have an extremely damaging attack.
else I do not know how epic feats play up when you have 500000 because you grab all one take feat then use stacking feats indefinitely and if you can not increase your damage by at least 1 per feat then the one taking the DR feat over and over will be immune to damage and if you do not increase your attack of at least one per feat the ones who stacks improved natural armor indefinitely will doge everything.

[Socratov]

OK. Apparently "levels" stop at level 6, and instead after that point every 5000 xp can be spent on epic feats...ok....not sure how I feel about that.
E6! That is fun! (or at least, it can be)

Oh, you're playing E6! That changes everything.


If that's what you're doing, I would highly, highly recommend that your GM look at either Rizban's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?273643-3-5-E6-Rizban-s-E6-Compendium) or Gnorman's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?250820-Gnorman-s-Complete-E6-Compendium) E6 compendium as they're classes INTENDED for E6 play, while ordinary classes aren't. In all honesty, I would recommend Gnorman's stuff over Rizban's. Gnorman's classes are more "plug and play", while Rizban's are more for the optimiser.


Oh, well, then, Tome of Battle immediately wipes the floor with most casters in E6. It's basically what happens when you take a Magus, give it full BAB because you can, make it a bit stronger with the kind of spells it gets, let it recover its spells faster, and declare it's Totally Not A Spellcaster Guys.

ToB, meldshapers, Binders and Warlocks are quite great when it comes to E6 as they can refresh their powerset and don't have finite resources for the day. For a warlock starting out with the feat Mortalbane (feat from BoVD, but doe snot require evilness) will really help you ahead, apart form that you get some nice reusable abilities (if you can't find uses for shatter you aren't trying). I find that barring DM's that allow for 5 minute workdays, that these classes are quite great since they have some staying power and can encounter about 3-4 encounters a day, yet can make it feel as if you are really, really great at what you do. For warlocks, for example, you don't really underperform for sorcerers, can do quite some damage, and at lvl 6 you can nab either The Dead Walk, Fell Flight, Flee the Scene or charm person. All great tools at the level you get them and you can do them at will. That means all day, every day. As for warblade, well you can recover all your shiny maneuvers so that shouldn't create any problems.

[ahenobarbi]

Oh, well, then, Tome of Battle immediately wipes the floor with most casters in E6. It's basically what happens when you take a Magus, give it full BAB because you can, make it a bit stronger with the kind of spells it gets, let it recover its spells faster, and declare it's Totally Not A Spellcaster Guys.

Which reminds me about Mystic, Shooting Star, Sword of Arcane Order Ranger (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10830.0). Progresses like a full spellcaster (but only up to 5th level spells, so it isn't a full spell caster (which does not matter in E6)), gets access to wizard spells, d10 & full BAB. And some of regular Ranged goodies to boot.

Or you might prefer Mystic / Wildshape Ranger (to avoid violating spirit of DMs request by having "totally not a" full spell caster).

[Nifft]

Duskblade might be interesting in E6, if you're allowed to use [Reserve] feats, so you can pick up Fiery Burst and have an at-will 2d6 fire attack for those times when melee isn't a good option.
- Medium armor
- Full BAB and martial weapons
- Decent casting (but not full casting), with some nice melee range spells like Color Spray
- If you can take Fiery Burst, that boosts your caster level to 7 for [Fire] spells, and that snags you 2 rays from Scorching Ray (which doubles its damage). It's a neat little E6 synergy.

- - -

That said, if I were playing E6, I'd be all over Binder, Swordsage or Warblade.

[morkendi]

E6 build.... Sneaky warlock.

Tibbit
I usually use begiler to start, but rogue works fine if full casting classes are baned.

Would be begiler 1/ walock 4/ unseen seer 1if begiler open
Rogue 1/ warlock 5 if not
Dark template is plus 1la, if is an option, it is nice and gives things like hide in plane sight. Not neccesary, but works well.

Sneaky stuff will be on par with rogues because of tibbit and cat form. Besides, if some one sees you in many settings like town or city, who is goin to suspect a cat? Decent skill set. Take the feat that allows you to cast in cat form. Think it is surrogate spell casting. Take the invocations that fit the flavor like baleful utterence, darkness, devil's sight. You can darken an area at will and now see through it. Now you can sneek attack at will. Start adding feats lime fell drain and now you start to take levels as well as your decent damage. I have played this character before, and it really did well, even with full caters in game. Not over optimized, but can still be powerful.