How do Power Attack, Dragon Style, and Dragon Ferocity work together?

[5w337x7007h]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the math, because if this works like I think it does, then it's a pretty epic first hit followed by mediocre follow-up strikes.

I'm a lvl 4 Brawler, currently, and I'm planning to pump all my stat bonuses into Strength, giving me a 20 Str.

Power Attack gives me a +2 to damage per 4 bab, at a cost of -1 to hit per 4 bab. That means -3 Attack and +6 Damage, at my current level. The damage is increased by 1/2 if I'm using a 2-handed weapon, a 1-handed weapon in two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 strength on damage rolls.

Dragon Style allows me to apply 1-1/2 strength to the damage roll of my first unarmed strike on a given round.

Dragon Ferocity lets me add half my strength to the damage rolls of my unarmed strikes as long as I'm using Dragon Style.

As I read in the Brawler class, my unarmed strikes are treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for purposes that effect such either category. Assuming this all works accordingly my first attack should be 1d10+18. Here's the math I came up with.

1d10+7 Str(Dragon Style)+2(Dragon Ferocity)+9(Power Attack). This is assuming that Power Attack gains that extra 1/2 because of Dragon Style. Though I'm not sure if Dragon Ferocity applies to the first hit because of that one rule stating that bonuses from the same source cannot stack.

Is my math right on this? If it isn't then almost all of my hits would be rolling 1d10+13.
+6 from Power Attack on every hit, +7 Str from dragon style on the first hit, +5 Str on consecutive hits, and +2 Str from Ferocity on consecutive hits.

[Andreaz]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the math, because if this works like I think it does, then it's a pretty epic first hit followed by mediocre follow-up strikes.
I'm a lvl 4 Brawler, currently, and I'm planning to pump all my stat bonuses into Strength, giving me a 20 Str.
Well, let's get this rolling.

Dragon style gives your first punch in the round +1/2 STR to damage.
Dragon ferocity gives +1/2 STR to damage on all damage rolls.
This means that your array of unarmed strikes STR to damage is x2/x1.5/x1.5/x1.5.
Your natural strike "counts as 1handed, suffers no offhand penalties and is both manufactured and natural, as best benefits you".

Power Attack penalizes you by 1, +1 per 4 bab, for twice as much bonus to damage. BAB 4 means -2 attack/+4 damage. The ratio improves to -1/+3 if it's a 2handed weapon or a primary natural weapon with x1.5 STR to damage.
I look favorably on power attack here and will say all your unarmed strikes get the -1/+3 power attack ratio, after all they are natural weapons, and they are getting x1.5 STR to damage all the way.

So your array's bonus damage with power attack is x2 + 3*(bab/4 +1)/x1.5 + 3*(bab/4 +1)/x1.5 + 3*(bab/4 +1)/x1.5 + 3*(bab/4 +1).
At BAB 4, STR 20 this is +16/+13/+13/+13 damage

[Firest Kathon]

I look favorably on power attack here and will say all your unarmed strikes get the -1/+3 power attack ratio, after all they are natural weapons, and they are getting x1.5 STR to damage all the way.
The brawler only gets 1xStr to all attacks, this is called out specifically (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler#TOC-Unarmed-Strike) in the class:

A brawler applies her full Strength modifier (not half ) on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
The Dragon Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat) does allow you to add 1.5xStr on the first attack, so I would agree to add the -1/+3 from Power attack on the first attack, but all following attacks will only get -1/+2 from Power Attack. The extra damage from the Dragon Ferocity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-ferocity-combat) feat is in addition to the normal 1xStr and does not, in my opinion, factor into the Power Attack calculations.

[ArendK]

I....need this in my life...

[5w337x7007h]

Hold on guys, I'm trying to calculate the math of the feats if I were 11th level, I should've made that clear. So at 11th level I've got a 20 strength and an bab of +11/+6/+1. Which means Power Attack should have a trade-off of -3/+6 on a basic 1-handed attack.

I'm seriously hoping I just have to use the core monk's flurry of blows list to determine my brawler's flurry.

[9mm]

Hold on guys, I'm trying to calculate the math of the feats if I were 11th level, I should've made that clear. So at 11th level I've got a 20 strength and an bab of +11/+6/+1. Which means Power Attack should have a trade-off of -3/+6 on a basic 1-handed attack.

I'm seriously hoping I just have to use the core monk's flurry of blows list to determine my brawler's flurry.

brawlers flurry != monks flurry. however IIRC you should be at flurry with power attack of +10/+10/+5/+5/+0. as the flurry penalty and power attack is -5.

[Psyren]

Power attack should logically add 200% (-1/+4) if you're using a weapon that adds 2x damage instead of 1.5x. Unfortunately, this is not called out in the feat, so you are stuck with the built-in -1/+3 ratio Dragon Style gives you access to. To get -1/+4, you need an ability like the THF Fighter's Greater Power Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/two-handed-fighter) - which unfortunately Brawlers don't get.

One bit of cool advice I'll add to this build is Combat Style Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-style-master-combat) - this will let you change styles as a free action, letting you switch from Dragon Style to Pummeling Style mid-charge and thus pounce through allies.

[5w337x7007h]

Okay, I must be missing something because I'm going on what I've read. Lets assume I'm lvl 11 and I've got all three feats.

1. Does my first unarmed strike, in a round, get a +6 to damage rolls from Power Attack, or does it get a +9 to damage rolls because of how Dragon Style works? Note: A Brawler's Unarmed Strikes are considered manufactured and natural for the purposes of spells and effects that

2. Does Dragon Ferocity apply to the first unarmed strike or does it only apply to consecutive unarmed strikes?

Power Attack at 11th level = -3 to Attack Rolls and +6 to Damage Rolls; +1/2 of 6 if I am using a two-handed weapon, a one-handed weapon in two hands, or natural weapons that add 1-1/2 Str on damage rolls.

Dragon Style = +1-1/2 Str to the Damage Roll of the First Unarmed Strike of a Round

Dragon Ferocity = Add 1/2 Str to unarmed strikes while using Dragon Style

[Psyren]

1) +9.

2) First swing only (which gets the -1/+3 ratio.) The remaining strikes get -1/+2 from PA.

Basically Kathon is correct.

[Andreaz]

The brawler only gets 1xStr to all attacks, this is called out specifically (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler#TOC-Unarmed-Strike) in the class:

The Dragon Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat) does allow you to add 1.5xStr on the first attack, so I would agree to add the -1/+3 from Power attack on the first attack, but all following attacks will only get -1/+2 from Power Attack. The extra damage from the Dragon Ferocity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-ferocity-combat) feat is in addition to the normal 1xStr and does not, in my opinion, factor into the Power Attack calculations.

Dragon ferocity, pal. I said 1.5 because dragon ferocity does just that.

[Psyren]

Ah, my bad, I misread the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9sgz) - yes, DF means all your subsequent punches now also get the 1.5x (and therefore the -1/+3 ratio.)

[5w337x7007h]

So I don't apply Dragon Ferocity to my first unarmed strike, which balances out the flurry, I guess.

[Psyren]

So I don't apply Dragon Ferocity to my first unarmed strike, which balances out the flurry, I guess.

Your first hit gets double Str-mod to damage actually. But it will still only get 150% Str bonus damage from Power Attack as written, rather than 200%.

[5w337x7007h]

Okay, This is excellent information. Hopefully anyone asking this question will find the answer here.

Also, I was curious about that because the way this is phrased.

Bonus (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html#bonus): Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

It implies that the Dragon Style Bonus would overwrite the Dragon Ferocity bonus on the first unarmed strike.

[Yanisa]

They are both "Strength bonuses" and that normally means they don't stack (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk). However the FAQ on dragon ferocity (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9sgz) specifies they should stack, which is far more logical because it's a feat chain.

Here's the full text, emphasis added on the double strength bonus.


Dragon Ferocity and Tiger Claws: These feats both tell me to add 1/2 my Strength bonus to damage. How does that affect my damage? Does that reduce down to 1/2?

No, Dragon Ferocity should read "While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of twice your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the other attacks" and Tiger Claws should read "If you use Power Attack in conjunction with this attack, increase your Strength bonus on one of the damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, normally to a total of 1-1/2 your Strength bonus." These changes will be reflected in future errata.

[5w337x7007h]

Wonderful! Because it's a feat chain, the bonuses stack, so 2x strength on my first hit, 1-1/2x on the following. You guys have been a wonderful help!