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Volin
2007-05-03, 04:40 PM
Alright, this one goes out there to any lit majors who have been heckled about role-playing games. It also goes out there to anyone who is interested in the legitimacy of both playing and making RPG sessions as a useful discipline. So basically, if you take yourself seriously (which is by no means a requirement) you should check out this article from USC's website. This guy is making us all look good. Tell me what you think!

http://angelingo.usc.edu/vol04issue02/articles.php?section=culture&article=TableRolePlaying&page=all

Yahzi
2007-05-03, 11:47 PM
Tell me what you think!
I failed my save vs. academia.

:smallredface:

Jade_Tarem
2007-05-04, 01:02 AM
Well, it certainly helps with DnD player public relations. That, and he did a good job of accurately defining the ideal DnD session. I wonder how those who have an immediate, visceral reaction to RPG's and consider them "the devil" would respond...

It's a rather pessimistic outlook on America, although I can't say that any of his points are flawed or false. I do have a question for someone from a country that is not America: Do you feel that his points are valid for your country as well?

Volin
2007-05-04, 01:17 AM
Well, to be honest I didn't even see its outlook on America all that harsh...maybe that's confirming what you asked...

Bender
2007-05-04, 06:22 AM
It's a rather pessimistic outlook on America, although I can't say that any of his points are flawed or false. I do have a question for someone from a country that is not America: Do you feel that his points are valid for your country as well?

Yes, though maybe not in the same degree. In general I think Belgians (and maybe other Europeans) consider Americans to be more superficial and having less culture to fall back on, which corresponds with more fragmentation of personalities. I don't know how grounded that feeling is, though. Of course the much longer history of European countries and cities have a big impact on culture.
Anyway, it could apply to Europe as well, I guess

YPU
2007-05-04, 06:28 AM
Well, as far as I can see we the Dutch are almost as superficial as Americans with hardly any universal views on anything. We do have relatively high number of gamers here. But yes it could apply to us as well, I suppose.

Matthew
2007-05-04, 08:49 PM
Yeah, overall, a well reasoned and persuasive article. Limiting its focus to America is probably a necessity for brevity, but most of what is said applies to the universal human experience.

Tobrian
2007-05-04, 10:10 PM
They exist within culture, interplay with it, bring changes and are changed. In their own way, role-playing games are cultural texts that serve as windows into the elusive American character that hides in each of us, primarily through metaphor and functionality. Metaphorically, role-playing games display the fragmentation of American culture through the fragmentation of the player’s personhood, and reinforce aspects of the American Dream.

Interesting article, and I do not dispute the psychological conclusions the author draws, but... oh dear. Roleplaying a hero as an embodiment of the American Dream? Please. *rolls eyes*

That is almost offending to all non-US people, isn't it? But then, at the risk of making myself unpopular, I have noticed certain... trends? national delusions? national paranoias?... in the American psyche, that turn up again and again and again in American movies, TV series, books, politics. One of them is the "noble" conviction of Manifest Destiny, that America is the Shining City on the Hill destined to save the world. Let's not go into more detail please, because the Forum rules come down heavily on that.

It sounds like Mr. Slegle is one of those pompous sociologists eager to "deconstruct" everything. Roleplaying borrows heavily from ancient myth and modern fantasy, from movies, superhero comics, all that is pretty much international these days. And playing lets-pretend as a child, casting yourself into other roles, invisioning yourself as a hero or an animal, is I'm certain what many of us did it as children, and it goes back to shamanic roots. Or more precisely it shares the same roots as shamanism... an animistic view of the universe wherein you take on a different role and borrow the power inherent in the archetype for yourself.

As for social acceptance of RPGs, and religious fundies:
Well, fantasy/SF roleplaying is not a mainstream hobby in Germany, although I bet there are more RPGers than one thinks in the 15-50 age group.
A lot of RPGers I know are of middle-class and/or academic background (mainly because I myself are of that background)... students, engineers, scientists, many IT computer people, artists, one is a cop, one is working in a bank, one is working for civil service, and one is currently serving in the Bundeswehr (the German Army) as a (lesbian) officer. A pretty mixed bunch.

WoW and similar MMORPGS are steadily "stealing" away time from pen-n-paper RPGs, and many teenagers who 10 years ago would have been the next generation of RPGers are now spending their time grinding for virtual gold.

Currently, after the shootings in Germany and USA, the public discussion is back on square one with certain people hysterically screaming about how politicians should ban all those nasty icky first-person shooter computer games, because they might "turn children violent" etc etc blablabla. But as far as I know there are no publicly visible religious fundies boycotting D&D and other RPGs.

Probably because Germany a) is a rather secular society, b) does not have as many crazy religious fundies (and they have no power in politics, thank God, compared to the Dominionists in America), and c) the non-geek parts of the public couldnt care less about RPGs if they even know stuff like that exists. If some fundie ran around yelling "Witchcraft! OMG roleplayers worship the Devil 'cuz there's DEMONS in the Monster Manual!" he'd be looked at as bat**** crazy.

LARPers and medieval re-enactors get some media coverage from time to time, with LARPers usually cast into the role as eccentric geeks, while medieval/Renaissance re-enactment and (pseudo-)Medieval Faires become more popular every year. We're not quite at the level of France or Great Britain when it comes to RenFaires yet, because for many years anything resembling re-enactment of or hobby interests in Viking/Medieval German/Norse society was looked at with suspicion because of the bad memories of the Nazi regime and their glorification of the "norse master race" and "nordic" mythology.

But parts of that article might make a good intro text for people who want to know more about that "roleplaying thing" and want to think of this pastime as cultured and deep, instead of dorky.

Edited to add:
As for fragmentation of personalities, I'm merely a lowly biologist [sarcasm] but I'd say it has nothing to do with national psyches and more with the psychological background of those who play RPGs (o r write fanfic, watch SF shows etc). RPGers fall into two broad categories: Those that play RPGs as a hobby with friends, to beat up some "orcs" while drinking beer, and those that play RPGs to become someone different, envision other worlds, to feed a deeper desire to be free of everyday restraints and at the same time belong. To flee into a world (not neccessarily a "nice" world, it might be pretty dark) that they can control by the rules they wield, or a world where they can work out certain quirks, exercise parts of their personality that they keep hidden from the everyday world.

A lot of RPGers, fanfic writers and fantasy artists I've talked to on the net or personally (and speaking from own experience) grew up as bright intelligent teenagers that never quite fit in with the "cool" crowd, suffered from mobbing by peers, or were generally considered "odd". Either your self-confidence takes a nose-dive, or it grows harder from biting back. This often leads to one drifting towards the fringe, into some subculture or other, as one tries to define a role for oneself. This is of course not universal; I know some RPGers who are very successful "mainstream" personalities , but even they have "unusual" hobbies such a sword-fighting and LARPing. And there are many more who even as an adult suffer from clinical depression and low self-esteem.

Look at H.P. Lovecraft. Textbook example.

"Fragmented personality" sounds like a clinical psychosis, though. Not what I want to see associated with roleplaying, thanks but no. :smallfrown:

doliemaster
2007-05-04, 10:31 PM
I didn't read the article yet but decided to post that as an american, gamers and other Role-players have a hard time because religion seems like it is in control, I mean the only argument against gay marriage is "It's an afront to God" seriously ask anyone against it why they are against it, and that is how they answer, also for the people at school I argue this with, I will repeat "I AM NOT GAY!!!" I just believe in everyone's right and equal rights! Also as a gamer, I lost buddies because of their religions, one who's mom wouldn't let them play a game because it was against their religion, and it took me forever to discover pen and paper rpg's because....well I don't know if I wasn't aloud to by them because of religion or the whole 'Lose touch with reality' thing going around. Also even as an american, I do believe we are full of ourselves, although I like to consider myself different because I developed political opinions at an early age, ones that my family did not share, so I wasn't just copying them.

Matthew
2007-05-04, 10:37 PM
We're probably straying way too far out from the Forum Rules regarding what are acceptable topics for discussion here. Perhaps we should return focus to the article?

doliemaster
2007-05-04, 10:44 PM
OOOPS, sorry I forgot about guidelines for a second:smallredface: anyway I read the article, very well informed, espically for a college student, already understands things people twice his age don't, hope he has a very successful life.:smallbiggrin:

bosssmiley
2007-05-04, 10:45 PM
Careful with the RL social comment folks. Red text (and the wrath of Mod) is never a nice addition to a thread.

Edit: Ninja'ed by Matthew, it's only ever good.

I liked the article. It was an intelligent outsider's take on how gamers operate and why we do what we do. Maybe the author drew a few too many socially specific conclusions, but if the guy lives in American society and sees these games strictly within the social context they inhabit in American culture, then that's what he has to comment upon.

7/10, would link to happily.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-05-04, 11:03 PM
I really liked this article. To those who dislike it because of it's references to the American cultural elements, keep in mind that it's written by an American, from an American perspective. That's just the way it is. If the article had been written by a German, I wouldn't be complaining about references to German cultural elements, so back off a little, would you?



It sounds like Mr. Slegle is one of those pompous sociologists eager to "deconstruct" everything. Roleplaying borrows heavily from ancient myth and modern fantasy, from movies, superhero comics, all that is pretty much international these days. And playing lets-pretend as a child, casting yourself into other roles, invisioning yourself as a hero or an animal, is I'm certain what many of us did it as children, and it goes back to shamanic roots.

I fail to see how this invalidates anything Slagle said in his article.


As for social acceptance of RPGs, and religious fundies:
Well, fantasy/SF roleplaying is not a mainstream hobby in Germany, although I bet there are more RPGers than one thinks in the 15-50 age group.
A lot of RPGers I know are of middle-class and/or academic background (mainly because I myself are of that background)... students, engineers, scientists, many IT computer people, artists, one is a cop, one is working in a bank, one is working for civil service, and one is currently serving in the Bundeswehr (the German Army) as a (lesbian) officer. A pretty mixed bunch.

I'm not sure where you're aiming with this. You summed up most of the gamers I know, too.

Edit: bosssmiley, he's a gamer. Look at his "About the Author" blurb:
David Slagle is a junior at the University of Southern California majoring in Creative Writing and Interactive Entertainment. Every summer break he enjoys returning to Ohio to hang out in musty basements and make life miserable for his GMs. [Emphasis mine]

Karellen
2007-05-05, 10:04 AM
Tsk, what a load of bollocks. The mechanical division of the player's psyche into his role as the player and his role as the character in play is a metaphor of the fragmentation of a person's psyche in American society? I can't see how this connection can be made. A game is not disconnected from the society, sure, but the steps a player has to take in order to play the game that are necessiated by the basic nature of the game in question don't have a great deal to do with the social context.

Wolf_Shade
2007-05-05, 10:47 AM
Overanalysis of a simple concept.
Creating importance in something to match a thesis.

It's classic socio-political psychology. Basically you blow as much smoke as you can and it'll eventually look like there's actually a concrete idea there.

Or I just have too practical a way of thinking.


does not have as many crazy religious fundies (and they have no power in politics, thank God, compared to the Dominionists in America),
In a governmental structure which operates around individuals voting based on their personal conscience, exactly why are people surprised when those with a religious background vote with that background in consideration? And why do they then complain that those people's votes in the majority make policy when - *gasp* - that's how the system was designed?
EDIT: granted, this may not be how it operates in Germany, where the poster I quoted is from, but the sentiment seems quite popular in America as well.

thorgrim29
2007-05-05, 04:48 PM
The problem is that, while the usa are indeed a diplomacy, any group with a lot of money can dictate policy given enough time and money (NRA, religious fundamentalists, the tabacco companies, the oli firms, etc...).

And... the religious fundamentalists are not the majority in the US any more then in Afganistan, for exemple Al Gore had the majority of votes, Bush won, imagine the world without bush as a president (note, anyone can imagine anything, so it's not realy politics right)

Volin
2007-05-06, 04:34 AM
Wow, I really didn't think this would come to such a debate. I like that a lot of people are interested in the topic, but we are verging on some flaming here. Also, I didn't think the article really brought up politics or I wouldn't have posted it. Please, no political stuff here, none of it will turn out with any result but getting this thread removed.

bosssmiley
2007-05-06, 08:35 AM
Edit: bosssmiley, he's a gamer. Look at his "About the Author" blurb:

I stand corrected.

http://www.phoenixthrone.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/oneofusraccoons.jpg