A Fiend of Posession gestalt (maybe ghost aswell)

[Dr.Manhattan]

So i have this build and I need help with it. It is a level 11 gestalt game. Phb spells only but test is good as long as it is not homebrew (Dragon Magazine is ok) as long as its not too insane.

Ghost 1 / psion 1 - 1
Ghost 2 / psion 2 - 2
Ghost 3 / psion 3 - 3
Fop 1 / psion 4 - 4
Fop 2 / psion 5 - 5
Mindbender 1 / thrall 1 - 6
Fop 3 / thrall 2 - 7
Fop 4 / thrall 3 - 8
Fop 5 / thrall 4 - 9
Fop 6 / thrall 5 - 10
Ghost 4 / Thrall 6 - 11
Change psion for wilder
Something like this I was thinking for synergy with Cha and take ACF to get a mantle and Expanded knowledge

Race: Star elf
To get into FoP i took the divine minion template. I have 2 LA buyoffs. I want insane CHA and a nice build with FoP and if i can get ghost in there would be awesome (cha bonus, ethereal, manifest,deflations bonus, Rejuvenation, good stuff). Templates can be abit loose (half-fey and Unseylie fey was the plan. Inherited are in effect before level 1. Combine with the feat Otherwordly to negate ghost type change at 1:st level)

Most of this is up for change. The plan is to posess My thrall and then use him as a body and only leave if I have to.

"I want insane CHA and a nice build with FoP and if i can get ghost in there would be awesome" Ghost would help with that
FoP would need a vessel and a High cha for forcing possesions. I am asking for a build around that. The build I have atm is the closest. I know that there is issues with fey/ghost templates with otherwordly but that is solved with the GM. A build going around the FoP that synergies with the High CHA needed.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) only changes an existing alignment subtype, it doesn't give you one if you didn't already have one: "The creature's type changes to outsider, and any alignment subtypes it has changes to match the corresponding alignment subtypes of its deity."

Divine Minion is an inherited template that changes your type to Outsider, and Outsiders cannot become Ghosts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm): "Ghost is an acquired template that can be added to any aberration, animal, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or plant."

Otherworldly would not change your type to Outsider from Undead, it only switches you to Outsider from Humanoid: "You are a native outsider, not a humanoid."

Gestalt characters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) cannot take two prestige class levels at the same character level: "A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class."

My advice would be to switch to either a Bladeling (MM2, LA +2) Divine Minion (+1 LA), or a Kaorti (FF, 2 HD, +2 LA), drop the Ghost template, drop Thrallherd, and take Leadership.

[Dr.Manhattan]

That wasent really helpfull in building... I just droped half of the build beacuse of a template issue.. 1 level in Half-Fiend instead of the divine minion would work. While i apprecieate you telling me it wouldnt work I would rather have help with build, instead of taking it down when the synergy is good but there is a problem that could easily be fixed

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That wasent really helpfull in building... I just droped half of the build beacuse of a template issue.. 1 level in Half-Fiend instead of the divine minion would work. While i apprecieate you telling me it wouldnt work I would rather have help with build, instead of taking it down when the synergy is good but there is a problem that could easily be fixed

It still doesn't work. Half-Fiend doesn't give you any alignment subtypes, so it won't qualify you for Fiend of Possession. It also can't switch your type back to Outsider from Undead, because you cannot even start taking Half-Fiend if you're Undead or incorporeal: "Half-fiend is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more and nongood alignment."

It's clear that you want to make a Psion//Fiend of Possession, but nothing else you've included will even work within the rules. You haven't given me much to work with for what advice to give, other than letting you know what doesn't work and why.

Take a look at the Fiend of Possession Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7518.0). Just being an Outsider isn't enough, you need to get the Evil subtype. Most Outsider races that the handbook recommends rely on using the Ritual of Alignment in Savage Species to gain the Evil subtype for 56,000 gp and 2,240 xp, which cannot be obtained prior to ECL 11 WBL. This character would begin play having just spent nearly all of his money on that ritual, and planning to start taking Fiend of Possession at 12th level, so that's not a viable option at all. That means you need to choose a race that starts with the evil subtype, such as a Bladeling Divine Minion or a Kaorti, or one that the handbook lists.

[Ellowryn]

Seeing as you are level 11, and FoP is only 6 levels long i would recommend grabbing the Unholy Scion template from Heroes of Horror. It has a whopping 5 LA, but makes you a Outsider (Evil, Native) so you can still be resurrected, along with very good stat bonuses (+6 Int!), along with some good SLA's and other goodies. It does mean putting off Mindbender until next level, but if it is really important to you to have it right away then take the Web ACF for Telepath Psions that give up their 5th level bonus feat for Telepathy.

[Dr.Manhattan]

It still doesn't work. Half-Fiend doesn't give you any alignment subtypes, so it won't qualify you for Fiend of Possession. It also can't switch your type back to Outsider from Undead, because you cannot even start taking Half-Fiend if you're Undead or incorporeal: "Half-fiend is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more and nongood alignment."

It's clear that you want to make a Psion//Fiend of Possession, but nothing else you've included will even work within the rules. You haven't given me much to work with for what advice to give, other than letting you know what doesn't work and why.

Take a look at the Fiend of Possession Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7518.0). Just being an Outsider isn't enough, you need to get the Evil subtype. Most Outsider races that the handbook recommends rely on using the Ritual of Alignment in Savage Species to gain the Evil subtype for 56,000 gp and 2,240 xp, which cannot be obtained prior to ECL 11 WBL. This character would begin play having just spent nearly all of his money on that ritual, and planning to start taking Fiend of Possession at 12th level, so that's not a viable option at all. That means you need to choose a race that starts with the evil subtype, such as a Bladeling Divine Minion or a Kaorti, or one that the handbook lists.

Also its not always if u take the class progression instead of template with Half-Fiend
"I want insane CHA and a nice build with FoP and if i can get ghost in there would be awesome" Ghost would help with that
FoP would need a vessel and a High cha for forcing possesions. I am asking for a build around that. The build I have atm is the closest. I know that there is issues with fey/ghost templates with otherwordly but that is solved with the GM. A build going around the FoP that synergies with the High CHA needed.

[Dr.Manhattan]

Seeing as you are level 11, and FoP is only 6 levels long i would recommend grabbing the Unholy Scion template from Heroes of Horror. It has a whopping 5 LA, but makes you a Outsider (Evil, Native) so you can still be resurrected, along with very good stat bonuses (+6 Int!), along with some good SLA's and other goodies. It does mean putting off Mindbender until next level, but if it is really important to you to have it right away then take the Web ACF for Telepath Psions that give up their 5th level bonus feat for Telepathy.

I would need high cha for possesion so int isnt super High priority

[Ellowryn]

I would need high cha for possesion so int isnt super High priority

Well, it also gives you +4 cha, along with +2 Dex and Wis. And you still need a good int for Psion and its Hide Presence ability, cause there is no point in trying to hide in something if you can't reliably avoid detection.

[Dr.Manhattan]

Well, it also gives you +4 cha, along with +2 Dex and Wis. And you still need a good int for Psion and its Hide Presence ability, cause there is no point in trying to hide in something if you can't reliably avoid detection.
Yes hide would be usefull but I already have 14 points in it and its against spell dc. Also I was thinking wilder to have cha synergy instead of 2 stats ill focus on one and still get almost full manifester levels

[Ellowryn]

Yes hide would be usefull but I already have 14 points in it and its against spell dc. Also I was thinking wilder to have cha synergy instead of 2 stats ill focus on one and still get almost full manifester levels

Eh, Psions are a better class the Wilder but its your build. Either way its a good template for what you want.

[Dr.Manhattan]

I ONLY need outsider now...
lesser infernal transformation spell and a post that states that i do not loose a prestige class even if i no longer meet the requirment. Since its only a subtype and alignment is still evil I can prob get away with it. Meaning the build, if nothing better turns out is still viable
(http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/41888/do-you-lose-your-prestige-class-features-when-you-no-longer-meet-its-requirement)

[Heliomance]

I ONLY need outsider now...
lesser infernal transformation spell and a post that states that i do not loose a prestige class even if i no longer meet the requirment. Since its only a subtype and alignment is still evil I can prob get away with it. Meaning the build, if nothing better turns out is still viable
(http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/41888/do-you-lose-your-prestige-class-features-when-you-no-longer-meet-its-requirement)

Evil alignment is not the same as [Evil] subtype. It's not "just" a subtype, it's one of the prereqs. You need to have the [Evil] subtype.

[Dr.Manhattan]

Evil alignment is not the same as [Evil] subtype. It's not "just" a subtype, it's one of the prereqs. You need to have the [Evil] subtype.

Did you not read the link? I will use a cheese trick to obtain the subtype long enough to level up. I will loose the subtype but not the prestiege class.
Why I said that I can get away with it is that my gm wont slaughter me for doing it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Did you not read the link? I will use a cheese trick to obtain the subtype long enough to level up. I will loose the subtype but not the prestiege class.
Why I said that I can get away with it is that my gm wont slaughter me for doing it.

At that link you provided, one person said you won't lose the prestige class for losing its prerequisites, and two people said you will lose the prestige class for losing its prerequisites. One even quoted the official game rule FAQ, which while not specifically RAW, it does give the authors' intent. Furthermore, any more recently published rules supersede prior rules, and in the case of maintaining prestige class prerequisites, the most current and up to date general rule is in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane, and applies to all prestige classes, not just the ones published in those books.

Lesser Infernal Transformation is a 4th level Cleric spell with a personal range, and it only lasts 1 round/level. Characters don't level up at any particular time in-game, it just happens. Maybe characters have to train for several hours/days/weeks to reap the benefits of their new character level, maybe the characters go to sleep and wake up having gained a level. If it were handled in a RAW method, you gain xp immediately upon defeating a given challenge, and provided training isn't needed, your new level is gained as soon as that xp is gained. PCs have no knowledge of experience points as a game mechanic, and especially no knowledge of their current xp or how much is needed to gain the next character level. Unless your character was under a Persistent Lesser Infernal Transformation for an entire character level, he would not have been under the effects of that spell at the time he leveled up.

My advice would be to use a more practical and rules legal method of obtaining and maintaining Fiend of Possession.

[Dr.Manhattan]

At that link you provided, one person said you won't lose the prestige class for losing its prerequisites, and two people said you will lose the prestige class for losing its prerequisites. One even quoted the official game rule FAQ, which while not specifically RAW, it does give the authors' intent. Furthermore, any more recently published rules supersede prior rules, and in the case of maintaining prestige class prerequisites, the most current and up to date general rule is in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane, and applies to all prestige classes, not just the ones published in those books.

Lesser Infernal Transformation is a 4th level Cleric spell with a personal range, and it only lasts 1 round/level. Characters don't level up at any particular time in-game, it just happens. Maybe characters have to train for several hours/days/weeks to reap the benefits of their new character level, maybe the characters go to sleep and wake up having gained a level. If it were handled in a RAW method, you gain xp immediately upon defeating a given challenge, and provided training isn't needed, your new level is gained as soon as that xp is gained. PCs have no knowledge of experience points as a game mechanic, and especially no knowledge of their current xp or how much is needed to gain the next character level. Unless your character was under a Persistent Lesser Infernal Transformation for an entire character level, he would not have been under the effects of that spell at the time he leveled up.

My advice would be to use a more practical and rules legal method of obtaining and maintaining Fiend of Possession.

Well that sucks then ill go back to the original topic and ask for help in building him, since alot of people corrected the build then they could prob help building it aswell

[Ellowryn]

Well that sucks then ill go back to the original topic and ask for help in building him, since alot of people corrected the build then they could prob help building it aswell

Your original build of Wilder 11//Fiend of Possession 6/Whatever 5 works if you grab Unholy Scion as it satisfies the Evil subtype and gives you a good stat bonus to Cha (among other good things). You can even still grab Thrallherd if you take Hidden Talent at first level and grab Mindlink. Otherwise i would suggest grabbing Anarchic Initiate as it advances full manifester level, your Wild Surge class feature, and gives you Chaotic Surge which is just insane.

[Heliomance]

At that link you provided, one person said you won't lose the prestige class for losing its prerequisites, and two people said you will lose the prestige class for losing its prerequisites. One even quoted the official game rule FAQ, which while not specifically RAW, it does give the authors' intent. Furthermore, any more recently published rules supersede prior rules, and in the case of maintaining prestige class prerequisites, the most current and up to date general rule is in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane, and applies to all prestige classes, not just the ones published in those books.


This is a hotly debated topic, and the answer is not nearly as clear cut as you make it sound. I believe the general consensus is that the rulings in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane can only apply to prestige classes in those books, because ruling otherwise breaks far too many things - one example being Schrodinger's Dragon Disciple.

As for the FAQ, not only are they not RAW, they are notorious for, in various places, not only contradicting RAW, but also contradicting themselves.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well that sucks then ill go back to the original topic and ask for help in building him, since alot of people corrected the build then they could prob help building it aswell

You'll need to drop Ghost, because it's not compatible with something that requires you to be an Outsider.

You'll need to choose an Outsider [Evil] race. A Diabolus from Dragon Compendium is a +1 LA Outsider [Native, Chaotic], so adding Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) would change its existing alignment subtype to match the deity's, Sebek is NE so you would be an Outsider [Native, Evil] with a +2 LA. They don't have any ability score adjustments, but they're the lowest ECL creature that qualifies for Fiend of Possession early enough to work for this build.

If you want to put level adjustment down one side of the build, Phrenic Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) gives Cha +4 for a +2 LA. A single level of Dragon Devotee in Races of the Dragon will also give you Cha +2.

I would recommend sticking to Psion, since you can use personal-range buffs on the creature you're possessing. For other classes, Uncanny Trickster in Complete Scoundrel and Legacy Champion in Weapons of Legacy give levels of "+1 level of existing class features" which can give you more effective levels of Fiend of Possession. You won't gain any additional class features, but your DC 10 + FoP Level + Cha abilities will be higher, and your enchant weapon ability will also benefit. Bloodline levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) can do the same thing, and you can take something like the Major Titan Bloodline and gain their ability to wield a gargantuan size two-handed warhammer without penalty, regardless of your own size (or the size of the creature you're possessing). Give your Psicrystal a Glove of Storing and a gargantuan wooden mallet, so you can possess it and pull the oversized mallet out of nowhere like in the cartoons. Sadly that isn't available until level 12, though. I'd pick the Devil or Efreeti bloodline if you're going to go that route.

For a build, consider the following:

Phrenic Diabolus Divine Minion of Sebek
1. LA +1// Psion 1
2. LA +2// Psion 2
3. LA +3// Psion 3
4. LA +4// Psion 4
5. Incarnate 1// Psion 5
6. Fiend of Possession 1// Psion 6
7. Fiend of Possession 2// Psion 7
8. Fiend of Possession 3// Psion 8
9. Fiend of Possession 4// Psion 9
10. Fiend of Possession 5// Psion 10
11. Fiend of Possession 6// Psion 11
12. Dragon Devotee 1// Psion 12
13. Uncanny Trickster 1// Psion 13
14. Uncanny Trickster 2// Psion 14
15. Uncanny Trickster 3// Psion 15
And then five levels of whatever you want (Binder, Warlock, Incarnate, etc.) along with Psion or a full manifesting prestige class like Paragnostic Apostle or Arch Psion or whatever.

Take Midnight Augmentation and use it with Bestow Power so every 1 additional powerpoint you spend causes it to bestow 2 additional powerpoints, so at your current level you would spend 7 powerpoints to give yourself 10 powerpoints. Use this to recover your powerpoints after buffing and between encounters. Take Persistent Power, it's in the 3.0 Psionics Handbook but still usable in 3.5 games (DMG p4, Why A Revision?). Get Overchannel and use Persistent Power with Touchsight, Mental Barrier, Energy Adaptation Specified five times, Force Screen, plus choice powers from whatever discipline you choose. I would pick Egoist and use Persistent Thicken Skin and Persistent Animal Affinity six times. Also consider taking Expanded Knowledge a few times for Energy Missile and Schism, and I would even take Metapower for Persistent Schism, and you can use Psychic Reformation to replace Metapower once you've gained two more levels.

Take Psicrystal Affinity (Nimble) and always keep Share Pain active between your possessed cohort and the psicrystal. The cohort will take half damage from all sources, and the Psicrystal's Hardness 8 will reduce every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain by that much. Your cohort should keep the psicrystal in a compartment on his person so opponents never have line of sight/effect to it and cannot target it directly or hit it with area effects. You (or your Schism) can manifest Vigor on your cohort and share it with the psicrystal for a nice hp cushion. Get a Healing Belt (MIC) for the Psicrystal and it can use that on your cohort when necessary. You can actually get a Warforged cohort and use Psionic Repair Damage on him and share it with your psicrystal.

[Jack_Simth]

...

If you're going Ghost, and planning to posses your Thrall full-time... what does Fiend of Possession actually do for you? Just grab Malevolence from the Ghost menu.

Given that you've got two free levels of LA, try this on for size:

Psion (Telepath)-2/Ghost LA-3 (2 la negated)/Thrallherd-6//Sorcerer-11 (level up with Thrallherd//Sorcerer after that)

Take Practiced Manifester at 1st level, Inquisiter at 3rd, and you're set. Full charisma-based casting, manifest as a Psion-7 (ML 11), and you've got your disposable meatsack and mooks. Just have the meatsack carry a spell component pouch.

Edit: Psion(Telepath) does it better for prerequisites. It's the Arcane casting that does the heavy lifting, so you only need enough Int for your highest-level power, don't worry about save DC's for the powers.

[Heliomance]

I would recommend sticking to Psion, since you can use personal-range buffs on the creature you're possessing.

Word of Curmudgeon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?418961-Simple-RAW-Thread-for-3-5-30-Really-30&p=19589089&viewfull=1#post19589089) says that isn't the case.

[Dr.Manhattan]

Forgot to mention! Sorry! You cannot mix psi and magic but i found this Phaerimm creature lets me cast sorcerer spells as spelllike

[Jack_Simth]

Well, how much cheddar do you want?

A Phaerim Hatchling (Monsters of Faerun, Lost Empires of Faerun) theoretically gives you Sorcerer casting as spell-like abilities equal to your hit dice for 2 la (one RHD, that goes away with the first class level). So if you want a neener-neener build, you could do something like:

Hatchling Phaerim (LA 2) / Half-Fey (Fiend Folio, LA 2) / Half-Dragon (Core, LA 3) / Ghost (Core, LA 5) / Variant Paladin-2 (2 points of buyoff in the mix) // Psion(telepath)-5/Thrallherd-6, and have:
Charisma to all saves (Paladin variant), Charisma-based full spellcasting as spell-like abilities (Phaerimm), Charisma to AC (ghost), lots & lots of disposable minions (Thrallherd), several extra spell-like abilitiles (half-fey), the ability to come back from the dead on a roll of 5 when you do manage to get killed (ghost), and several other things.

[Dr.Manhattan]

Well, how much cheddar do you want?

A Phaerim Hatchling (Monsters of Faerun, Lost Empires of Faerun) theoretically gives you Sorcerer casting as spell-like abilities equal to your hit dice for 2 la (one RHD, that goes away with the first class level). So if you want a neener-neener build, you could do something like:

Hatchling Phaerim (LA 2) / Half-Fey (Fiend Folio, LA 2) / Half-Dragon (Core, LA 3) / Ghost (Core, LA 5) / Variant Paladin-2 (2 points of buyoff in the mix) // Psion(telepath)-5/Thrallherd-6, and have:
Charisma to all saves (Paladin variant), Charisma-based full spellcasting as spell-like abilities (Phaerimm), Charisma to AC (ghost), lots & lots of disposable minions (Thrallherd), several extra spell-like abilitiles (half-fey), the ability to come back from the dead on a roll of 5 when you do manage to get killed (ghost), and several other things.

In what order would i build that?
I mean I still need to qualify for FoP Also at that point ill prob skip thrall and take leadership instead.

[Heliomance]

In what order would i build that?
I mean I still need to qualify for FoP Also at that point ill prob skip thrall and take leadership instead.

You'd be Undead, not Outsider, qualifying for FoP wouldn't be possible. On the other hand, you could just walk around in people suits using the Ghost's Malevolence ability and have done.