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View Full Version : Keep Dex bonus to AC when Prone? What?



Funkyodor
2007-05-03, 04:56 PM
I was working on building a TWF Improved Tripping Rogue and was brushing up on my Trip knowlege. My plan was to trip a guy then sneak attack and play him like a dirty trickster, throwing dirt in faces and the like. On Page 151 in the 3.5 PHB, Table 8-6 indicates that a prone opponent retains his Dexterity bonus to AC and just takes an AC penalty. This really doesn't make any sense to me. Can someone try to clarify this for me?

Jasdoif
2007-05-03, 05:01 PM
Yes, that's how it works.

As for explaining how that could be...someone laying on the ground isn't restricting from rolling to avoid a blow, for instance. I'm sure there are plenty of movies or TV episodes that show this better then I could describe it.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-03, 05:04 PM
Nahh Jasdoif, I just got the popcorn, please go ahead and describe it as cinematic as you can :tongue:

selfcritical
2007-05-03, 05:12 PM
I was working on building a TWF Improved Tripping Rogue and was brushing up on my Trip knowlege. My plan was to trip a guy then sneak attack and play him like a dirty trickster, throwing dirt in faces and the like. On Page 151 in the 3.5 PHB, Table 8-6 indicates that a prone opponent retains his Dexterity bonus to AC and just takes an AC penalty. This really doesn't make any sense to me. Can someone try to clarify this for me?

I take it you've never watched someone doing Brazilian Jujitsu for any extended period of time.

Person_Man
2007-05-03, 05:17 PM
It's a game mechanic. It doesn't deny an opponent their Dex score because it's too easy to Trip an enemy. Every melee build would be a Trip build. And it would be quite easy for a Rogue to qualify for Sneak Attack almost all the time. Therefore, it doesn't exist. That's it.

It's best not to think about translating it into real life. It'll just make your head hurt.

Jasdoif
2007-05-03, 05:22 PM
Nahh Jasdoif, I just got the popcorn, please go ahead and describe it as cinematic as you can :tongue:You mean you aren't going to share the popcorn? Sheesh, beholders are evil....:smalltongue: But I'm bored anyway.


"Sir Whatshisface hadn't intended to end up in a prone position, that was the fault of his foe's Improved Overrun feat. He didn't have time to lament his position, as he saw the greataxe's head screaming towards his own. He pushed against the ground with his elbow, rolling out of the way as the axe embedded itself in the dirt."

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-03, 05:47 PM
[Epic cinematic description]

*crunch* *drool* *crunch* *drool*


... Sheesh, beholders are evil....

Surprised? :smallamused:

Talya
2007-05-03, 05:52 PM
Clearly you've never been to Singapore.

Jasdoif
2007-05-03, 06:00 PM
Surprised? :smallamused:Well I didn't realize beholders were evil to the point of popcorn-hogging, if that's what you're asking.

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-03, 06:35 PM
Well, it's only natural. Their eyes are bigger than their stomachs.

magicwalker
2007-05-03, 06:46 PM
Wow, that's bad SpiderBrigade... sheesh.

Jasdoif
2007-05-03, 06:47 PM
Well, it's only natural. Their eyes are bigger than their stomachs.I suppose...it's still quasi-unspeakably evil, though.

Besides, I thought beholders couldn't taste most tastes, and I have difficulty believing that popcorn's texture alone could be appetizing.

Mewtarthio
2007-05-03, 06:51 PM
They're Beholders. They can eat as much popcorn as they want.

---

Re: The OP

If you lose Dex to AC, that means you are literally unable to react to the attack. Maybe you don't see it coming, or maybe you are unable to move, but the important this is that you can't do anything about the attack. If you can wriggle or roll about at all, you keep Dex to AC.

F.L.
2007-05-03, 11:01 PM
And yet, if you're climbing, when you probably still can move a little, you lose your dex bonus to AC.

Talya
2007-05-03, 11:03 PM
And yet, if you're climbing, when you probably still can move a little, you lose your dex bonus to AC.

A little being the operative word there.

I would actually allow a player to keep their dexterity bonus to AC while climbing, provided that they let go of whatever they are climbing on and plummet to the ground.

F.L.
2007-05-03, 11:19 PM
Well, climbing only enters with sneak attacks with the 3.0 command spell anyways... Now approach is the only remaining useful command, IMO.

And also, with respect to being prone, you could think Lei Wulong of the Tekken fighting series. He's positively deadly when fighting from a prone position.

Dervag
2007-05-03, 11:33 PM
It's best not to think about translating it into real life. It'll just make your head hurt.It makes sense to me.

'Prone' doesn't mean that you're flat on your back unable to move; it just means that you are no longer upright. There are several different stances you could be in. You still have whatever you're using to defend yourself.

A prone person is an easier target for weapons, but there are still moves they can make to avoid being hit. It's not as if they were tied to a chair.

Now, if I made the rules, I'd give people half their DEX bonus to AC, rounded down; but that would increase the complexity of the game. The bonus to hit with melee attacks does the job, I think.


A little being the operative word there.

I would actually allow a player to keep their dexterity bonus to AC while climbing, provided that they let go of whatever they are climbing on and plummet to the ground.The heck of it is, there are circumstances where that's actually a good idea. For example, I'm clambering along a cliff face to outflank a giant. The giant spots me and takes a swing at me. I can get whacked upside the head with a giant's club, or take the (short) fall. The fall may very well be less dangerous than the giant swinging a railroad tie at me.

Funkyodor
2007-05-04, 12:48 AM
Ok, after reading responses I concede the point. Trip is an fairly easy to accomplish maneuver and it would be broken to deny dex bonus because every rogue worth their salt would be trip sneak attacking. I've been trying to figure out how to get sneak attacks into a 1 on 1 combat situation and the only ones I've found is feint and a couple of the skill tricks in complete scoundrel. The skill tricks are very situational and have high req's and feint has its own problems. Maybe I should open another thread about sneak attack options when by your self. I mean you come up behind a guy and shank him in the kidney; if he goes down he was probably a mage; if he's pretty hurt he might be a bard; but if he's mildly annoyed then he's a barbarian or fighter and your gonna get walloped.

Krade
2007-05-04, 02:52 AM
If your willing to spend two feats on it, you can easily remove the problems with feint.

F.L.
2007-05-04, 10:51 AM
If you can get a way to stun your opponent, or to make them cower, you can also get sneak attacks. If you get Power Attack, and Resounding Blow from BOED, anytime you critical (so get a keen rapier), your opponent has to save v. Level/2+10+Cha bonus or cower for the round. Alternately, ascetic monk could do stun sneak attacks, but you'd have mad MAD. If you took Insightful strike, you could reduce your MAD, but you can't eliminate it. Plus, all these exalted feats really don't fit completely with a backstabber.

Attilargh
2007-05-04, 11:01 AM
Bag of Tricks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofTricks) or other summoning magic doodads. You'll never be without a flanking bonus again!

Invisibility is good. Greater Invisibility is better.

Ah, magic. :smallsmile: Is there no problem it can't solve?

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-04, 11:30 AM
Clearly you've never been to Singapore.

What's that got to do with anything?:smallconfused:


'Prone' doesn't mean that you're flat on your back unable to move.

It really doesn't.

Prone (dictionary.reference.com/browse/prone)
vs
Supine (dictionary.reference.com/browse/supine)

:smalltongue:

Green Bean
2007-05-04, 03:04 PM
Isn't there a feat or a class feature somewhere that allows Sneak Attacks on prone opponents? I'm pretty sure it was mentioned here on the boards. I think it's called 'Kick 'em While They're Down,' or something along those lines.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-04, 05:54 PM
Can someone explain to be what the point of tripping is actually supposed to be.

Always seemed pointless to me.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-05-04, 06:08 PM
You get a bonus to the rest of your attacks that round, plus you get your attack back (at a bonus with your friends joining in) in the form of an AoO when they try to stand.

Quietus
2007-05-04, 06:18 PM
Plus, with Improved Trip, you get a free attack immediately anyway.

deadseashoals
2007-05-04, 06:20 PM
Plus you either make them waste a move action standing (thus denying them multiple attacks), or make their attacks at a penalty and have crap for maneuverability.

You also stop them from advancing on you if you have a reach weapon and an attack of opportunity (*cough cough* spiked chain).

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-04, 09:02 PM
Thief Acrobat is one of the few PrCs that lets you ignore the penalties of being Prone. Plus, Free Action recovery FTW!