Warlock discussion.

[keeper2161]

I am disappointed by the lack of spell slots. I think is should upgrade to 7 or 8 spell slots at 20 instead of 4. My current warlock is level 12 and carries two rods of the pact keeper. I use the second one simply to get back a spell slot. I also don't like the mystical arcanum thingy. If you could of even have one more spell in each level I'd be fine with only being able to cast 6-9 once a day.

[WickerNipple]

Whether Warlocks get too few or too many spell slots is really a matter of how often your DM lets you take short rests.

[Ralanr]

Whether Warlocks get too few or too many spell slots is really a matter of how often your DM lets you take short rests.

Pretty much this.

And considering how warlock spells scale, more slots are just open for abuse.

[Millface]

I am disappointed by the lack of spell slots. I think is should upgrade to 7 or 8 spell slots at 20 instead of 4. My current warlock is level 12 and carries two rods of the pact keeper. I use the second one simply to get back a spell slot. I also don't like the mystical arcanum thingy. If you could of even have one more spell in each level I'd be fine with only being able to cast 6-9 once a day.

Because of Invocations this would be unbalanced. The way Warlock slots work, and because they always cast at maximum level, means that you're meant to be massively potent in small doses.

You also get slots back on short rest. Eldritch blast is very, very good, and if you go melee with Bladelock some of the best options for melee damage become available to you.

At first I agreed with your sentiment wholeheartedly, it wasn't until I gathered a deeper understanding of the warlock that I began to see the need for limited spell slots. If your party is using short rests you should be just as potent as any other straight casting class, but with the added benefit of invocations, a better cantrip, and pact bonuses.

as far as 6-9 once per day that's every casting class.

[Ralanr]

Invocations are my favorite part of the warlock. Adds a whole new level of customization that no other class gets (except battlemaster maybe).

[keeper2161]

As a 12th level warlock I mostly just cast eldritch blast. I use hunger of hadar a lot, it's a bigger darkness that does damage. Casting witch bolt as a level 5 spell is nice, 5d12 every round is very nice. We very rarely take short rests as we have mostly fighters and barbarians. So I mainly use my spells on bosses or when the group is having difficulty killing particularly big groups. But any other arcane class that comes in and I take an immediate step back and just spam eldritch blast as they have much better cc spells and can cast them much more often. It would be nice to be able to cast non cantrip spells more then once or twice each session. Altough I understand that the warlock is supposed to be a lot weaker then the full casters I just wish they had more versatilely.

[Ralanr]

Fighters need short rests, so I don't know why that's not common in your group.

Want versatility? Here's a tip, Eldrich blast (as you may know) doesn't scale in damage, but increases in Rays. Using repelling blast will push anyone hit backwards ten feet (with no save might I add). So you can keep them in hunger of hadar by blasting them.

Also the distance travels stacks depending on how many rays hit the target. Max level can push one target (like a dragon) 40 feet if all 4 it.

Invocations add versatility. Warlocks work with what they have.

Edit: I also find jump (triple jump distance) more generally useful than levitate (moving up and down 20 feet and requiring to push or pull yourself off something to move horizontally).

Warlocks are only weaker than other casters in terms of spell selection which is usually ripe with versatility. In combat they are not weaker.

[coredump]

Casting witch bolt as a level 5 spell is nice, 5d12 every round is very nice.

Would be, but it doesn't work that way. 5D12 is only the initial damage, then 1D12 every round after that.

[rhouck]

As a 12th level warlock I mostly just cast eldritch blast. I use hunger of hadar a lot, it's a bigger darkness that does damage. Casting witch bolt as a level 5 spell is nice, 5d12 every round is very nice. We very rarely take short rests as we have mostly fighters and barbarians. So I mainly use my spells on bosses or when the group is having difficulty killing particularly big groups. But any other arcane class that comes in and I take an immediate step back and just spam eldritch blast as they have much better cc spells and can cast them much more often. It would be nice to be able to cast non cantrip spells more then once or twice each session. Altough I understand that the warlock is supposed to be a lot weaker then the full casters I just wish they had more versatilely.

FYI "Casting witch bolt as a level 5 spell is nice, 5d12 every round is very nice" -- that is incorrect. Casting Witch Bolt at a higher level only raises the INITIAL damage. RAW you still only deal 1d12 every other round you maintain it.

Re the rest of your post... the lack of versatility sums up a Warlock. I disagree that they are a lot weaker, however, as Eldritch Blast spam is extremely powerful with Agonizing Blast. And you have three 5th level slots that recharge every short rest -- a Wizard only has two every long rest. That's a big difference.

If your group rarely takes short rests (do you ask to take them? as mentioned, a Fighter definitely benefits from them) and you want a class with a lot of versatility, then you are just in the wrong class. Have you asked your DM if you could change over to a Sorcerer (would require no ability score changes) or Wizard (just flip Int and Cha)? Wizard will get you far more versatility, but far less at-will damage. Sorcerer will play more closely to a Warlock, but with a greater number of spells per long rest (without short rests).

[Ralanr]

If you want to keep warlock, fight the urge to blow through your slots early in combat. Spells are best used when used strategically, warlocks can show how powerful a single well placed spell is.

I don't mean to undermine you as a player. Warlock is the only casting class (besides bard) that I consider playing. I tend to work well with less resources (I see my limits easier, thus I know what I need to break), which also why I play martials more.

[keeper2161]

The invocations don't add that much versatility. A lot of them add spells that take up spell slots or and abilities that can be duplicated better by items. Some of them are good. Like the at will mage armor (with this I can where the bracers of defense, at least my dm let's me).The at will alter self is nice. I the invocations for the three pacts are nice but you can only have one pact.

[keeper2161]

I like the warlock and I have been invaluable (I banished a dragon for a minute then we gathered around where it would pop back up and just destroyed it) to the party but that's because I am the only spell caster but the cleric and most of his spells are healing spells. We had a wizard join us for a few sessions and I was pretty useless besides blasting eldritch blast and one hunger of hadar.

Edit: Sorry for double post. I responded to two people.

[Ralanr]

The invocations don't add that much versatility. A lot of them add spells that take up spell slots or and abilities that can be duplicated better by items. Some of them are good. Like the at will mage armor (with this I can where the bracers of defense, at least my dm let's me).The at will alter self is nice. I the invocations for the three pacts are nice but you can only have one pact.

I recommend not taking slot using invocations for one. And the item duplication thing should be good considering A) magic items are not supposed to be common, B) you can only have 3 attuned at a time, C) you can give yourself more options by picking items you can replicate, and D) you still have them where you can lose items.

And that's the point of pacts. You can't just take all of them.

[Kryx]

The Warlock gets nearly as many total spell levels as Wizard - assuming you get your expected short rests per day.

I did the math:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H1SxsntIaK1IIHwJmR_6aUnUtZE6yWlP4vPzHQLE7Ak/edit#gid=1717442820

[Shining Wrath]

I don't see too many threads complaining about the Warlock being underpowered.

If you want more slots per day, prepare to give something up in return. What would you trade away for those slots?

[keeper2161]

I would be willing to give up the level 8 and 9 spells.

[Naanomi]

I would be willing to give up the level 8 and 9 spells.
So give up something you get at level 15+? I assume that means you will only get more slots at 15+, you are satisfied with warlock progression the rest of the way?

[keeper2161]

The Warlock gets nearly as many total spell levels as Wizard - assuming you get your expected short rests per day.

I did the math:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H1SxsntIaK1IIHwJmR_6aUnUtZE6yWlP4vPzHQLE7Ak/edit#gid=1717442820

This is for the socerer. A warlock could get twelve spells in one session with 2 short rests at 17 and above. My group rarely takes even one short rest. We have a cleric and a paladin neither get spells back at a short. The rest are fighters and barbarian. So any damage taken can be healed.

[Ralanr]

I would be willing to give up the level 8 and 9 spells.

Is that really a huge sacrifice considering the warlock spell list? Compared to gaining more (because pact magic) 5th level slots that recharge on a short rest.

But the fighter uses short rests to recover their abilities...and non spell healing needs short rest for hit die expanding (AFB).

[keeper2161]

After 14 the only thing really worth it is the 8 and 9 spells. The cap stone isn't really worth it for being level 20.

[rhouck]

I was pretty useless besides blasting eldritch blast and one hunger of hadar.

I think you need to reevaluate "useless". Look up the threads on Warlock Damage Per Round (DPR) using just Hex plus Eldritch Blast. Compare yourself to a Ranger or Fighter w/ a longbow -- how does your damage compare and would you consider them "useless"?

Now look at how much damage that Wizard can do with Firebolt each round compared to your Eldritch Blast + Hex. It's not even close!

Assuming Int 20 and Cha 20 for each of you AND that he is an Evoker with Empowered Evocation, he gets one attack roll for 3d10+5 (avg 21.5 if it hits) -- if he's not an Evoker, he just gets 3d10 (16.5 if it hits). Whereas you get to make three attacks (making it less painful if you miss, plus you can hit three different targets) for a total of 3d10+15 damage (avg 31.5 if all hit). Then add Hex for an extra 3d6 (avg 10.5). Plus you can get knockback. Plus it's force damage (least resisted damage type) versus the Wizard's fire damage (high number of resistant/immune monsters).

You have to compare Warlock more to Fighters. You get steady, excellent damage (from range), with the ability to do even more burst damage that recharges on a short rest.

[keeper2161]

You get the 6-9 spells as once per long rest spells and one spell of each level.

[Ralanr]

After 14 the only thing really worth it is the 8 and 9 spells. The cap stone isn't really worth it for being level 20.

What pact are you?

[rhouck]

This is for the socerer. A warlock could get twelve spells in one session with 2 short rests at 17 and above. My group rarely takes even one short rest. We have a cleric and a paladin neither get spells back at a short. The rest are fighters and barbarian. So any damage taken can be healed.

Everyone uses short rests to heal.

Clerics use short rests to get back their Channel Divinity.

Paladins use short rests to get back their Channel Divinity.

Fighters get back Action Surge, Second Wind, and Superiority Dice.

Just ask your party "hey, mind if we grab lunch for an hour so I can get my spells back?" This is an issue with your group, your DM, and your expectations for the class.

[Millface]

I think you need to reevaluate "useless". Look up the threads on Warlock Damage Per Round (DPR) using just Hex plus Eldritch Blast. Compare yourself to a Ranger or Fighter w/ a longbow -- how does your damage compare and would you consider them "useless"?

Now look at how much damage that Wizard can do with Firebolt each round compared to your Eldritch Blast + Hex. It's not even close!

Assuming Int 20 and Cha 20 for each of you AND that he is an Evoker with Empowered Evocation, he gets one attack roll for 3d10+5 (avg 21.5 if it hits) -- if he's not an Evoker, he just gets 3d10 (16.5 if it hits). Whereas you get to make three attacks (making it less painful if you miss, plus you can hit three different targets) for a total of 3d10+15 damage (avg 31.5 if all hit). Then add Hex for an extra 3d6 (avg 10.5). Plus you can get knockback. Plus it's force damage (least resisted damage type) versus the Wizard's fire damage (high number of resistant/immune monsters).

You have to compare Warlock more to Fighters. You get steady, excellent damage (from range), with the ability to do even more burst damage that recharges on a short rest.

This. Warlock is fine. It sounds like you really should just have gone with Sorcerer/Wizard. You have to be of the right mindset to enjoy the Warlock.

[Ralanr]

You get the 6-9 spells as once per long rest spells and one spell of each level.

I haven't seen many classes with access to more than 1 slot of 7-9 slots. And they get those back only after long rests.

Plus I think you can use those slots to pick a lower level spell (Like AoA) and have a version that's casted as a level 8 spell.

[Submortimer]

The invocations don't add that much versatility. A lot of them add spells that take up spell slots or and abilities that can be duplicated better by items. Some of them are good. Like the at will mage armor (with this I can where the bracers of defense, at least my dm let's me).The at will alter self is nice. I the invocations for the three pacts are nice but you can only have one pact.

Literally none of the invocations give you spells that take up spell slots. They give you spells that you can cast WITHOUT using a spell slot 1/long rest.

You honestly are looking at the warlock the wrong way. The warlock is not a "caster class" like the wizard or the sorcerer, it's more like a ranger: You have a few spells you can cast when you need to, otherwise you sit back and fire off shots at all the baddies (or wade in and stab them with your pact blade). If you want to be a "caster", you need to switch classes. If you're looking for more varied options, take a look in my sig, I've done a LOT of home brewing for the warlock (if your DM is open to the idea).

[Millface]

I haven't seen many classes with access to more than 1 slot of 7-9 slots. And they get those back only after long rests.

Plus I think you can use those slots to pick a lower level spell (Like AoA) and have a version that's casted as a level 8 spell.

I don't think that's right. MA aren't spell slots for a reason, that being one of them. If you are a warlock you can never cast a warlock spell higher than 5th level except your MAs, and with those you can ONLY cast the spell you picked for that level's MA.

[keeper2161]

I should clarify. In combat I can match almost match the melee classes damage wise and I can do that at 240ft (spell sniper). What I feel useless is at crowd control. If another caster is in the party it's better to let them cast the cc spells and for me to save spells for bosses. But they have so many spell slots that they usually have at least couple left over for the boss. So sometimes I have only cast one spell and just spammed eldritch blast. I like the warlock, the flavor is epicly delicious, but against other spell caster warlocks take a seat so far back they're twiddling their thumbs.

[Millface]

Literally none of the invocations give you spells that take up spell slots. They give you spells that you can cast WITHOUT using a spell slot 1/long rest.

You honestly are looking at the warlock the wrong way. The warlock is not a "caster class" like the wizard or the sorcerer, it's more like a ranger: You have a few spells you can cast when you need to, otherwise you sit back and fire off shots at all the baddies (or wade in and stab them with your pact blade). If you want to be a "caster", you need to switch classes. If you're looking for more varied options, take a look in my sig, I've done a LOT of home brewing for the warlock (if your DM is open to the idea).

Bewitching Whispers, Dreadful Word, Minions of Chaos, Mire the Mind, Thief of Five Fates, Sign of Ill Omen, Sculptor of Flesh.

Have you read literally none of the invocations? You're right from there on, but yikes, that first line was so condescending for being so utterly wrong. Unless there was a retcon I don't know about from WotC.

[Ralanr]

I should clarify. In combat I can match almost match the melee classes damage wise and I can do that at 240ft (spell sniper). What I feel useless is at crowd control. If another caster is in the party it's better to let them cast the cc spells and for me to save spells for bosses. But they have so many spell slots that they usually have at least couple left over for the boss. So sometimes I have only cast one spell and just spammed eldritch blast. I like the warlock, the flavor is epicly delicious, but against other spell caster warlocks take a seat so far back they're twiddling their thumbs.

Perhaps you don't need to go straight warlock if you enjoy its flavor. Maybe multiclass into sorcerer?

[rhouck]

Perhaps you don't need to go straight warlock if you enjoy its flavor. Maybe multiclass into sorcerer?

This is a great idea. You can get a ton of spell points with your warlock slots, giving you the versatility you seem to be seeking. And grabbing twinned spell for metamagic gives you a buff/debuff mechanic that no other caster can match.

Plus all you really lose are higher level spells, which you already are offering to give up.

[keeper2161]

I wouldn't mind the lack of spell slots if the mystic arcanum ability gave one more spell each level or let you change out spells even once a week.

[Kryx]

This is for the socerer. A warlock could get twelve spells in one session with 2 short rests at 17 and above.
This is not for the Sorcerer. The first tab compares sorc damage vs wiz damage (pre eratta - I haven't updated it). The 3rd tab compares Warlock Spell levels vs wizard spell levels.

A warlock does indeed get 12 spell SLOTS per day with 2 short rests. Each of those is at level 5 which is 12*5 = 60. It gets 30 from Mystic Arcanum which is 30. 60+30 = 90 spell slot levels for warlock at 20 - just like it says on the google doc.




My group rarely takes even one short rest.
Then I wouldn't recommend playing classes that are short rest based. Or convince your fellow players to be team players.

[keeper2161]

The spells I know doesn't bother me. How many times I can cast them bothers me. Also where are you getting the 30 from MA? You can only get 4 spells from MA.

[JNAProductions]

6+7+8+9

Ten characters.

[Orbis Orboros]

The problem with this line of thought is that level 9 level 1 spells are not even close to equal to level 9 spells. Try using the Spell Point Variant instead of adding the spell levels together.

[JNAProductions]

Due to their scaling, Warlocks still come out slightly ahead on spell points.

[keeper2161]

I love the warlock. I am not bashing nor saying it's underpowered. I'm just discussing what I would like done with the warlock.

[Orbis Orboros]

Due to their scaling, Warlocks still come out slightly ahead on spell points.

Really? That's very interesting. And then there are Invocations on top of that...

[Ralanr]

I love the warlock. I am not bashing nor saying it's underpowered. I'm just discussing what I would like done with the warlock.

It sounds like you are saying it's underpowered. I have offered combos and suggestions but they don't seem to convince you otherwise.

Even if you multiclass you are still technically a warlock. You're level 12 right? No way you could be more sorcerer.

[HoarsHalberd]

It sounds like you are saying it's underpowered. I have offered combos and suggestions but they don't seem to convince you otherwise.

Even if you multiclass you are still technically a warlock. You're level 12 right? No way you could be more sorcerer.

It will be underpowered for him as he's part of a group that rarely take short rests. But the problem here is his group rather than him.

[Kryx]

The spells I know doesn't bother me. How many times I can cast them bothers me. Also where are you getting the 30 from MA? You can only get 4 spells from MA.
I'm calculating total spell levels used in a day. So a warlock has 12 spells at 5th level = 60 spell levels. Mystic arcanum is 6,7,8,9 = 30. 60+30 = 90.

This is all outlined in the doc.

[Ralanr]

It will be underpowered for him as he's part of a group that rarely take short rests. But the problem here is his group rather than him.

Fair point.

Though I keep feeling the fighter in the group suffers due to lack of short rests. Or do Eldrich knights need long rests?

[MrStabby]

I'm calculating total spell levels used in a day. So a warlock has 12 spells at 5th level = 60 spell levels. Mystic arcanum is 6,7,8,9 = 30. 60+30 = 90.

This is all outlined in the doc.

This is an OK approach for comparing the other casting classed but is actually hugely unrepresentative for the warlock. Generally speaking you want to use the minimum amount of resource to get things done. A (single classed) warlock only gets his spells in big chunks. He doesn't have the luxury of expending a tactical level 2 spell slot to conserve higher slots and just tip the tide of battle with a well placed hold person. Up to level 10 that's his half his spell slots gone and he is severely limited in what else he can do. If he has used Hex, then it is all his spell slots gone. Yes you can compare total power of these spell slots but you also need to consider the power wasted through overkill.

On the other side your total power for a tough encounter is capped very much lower. Where you set up an ambush for a BBEG a wizard can prepare their full selection of spell slots (minus those they will get back with arcane recovery) and can use as many of them as they want in that fight. A warlock (on 1 short rests per day) would only be able to deploy 1/3 of their spell slots.

Warlocks are not underpowered but to keep them interesting you have to get some real use out of their invocations. You also need to find a way to have fun without expending spell slots. This is even more true if you take no short rests.

[HoarsHalberd]

Fair point.

Though I keep feeling the fighter in the group suffers due to lack of short rests. Or do Eldrich knights need long rests?

Warlocks spell slots>Action surge. Action surge is the only thing Eldritch Knights or Champions get from short rests. (Battle masters are obviously very different.)

[Kryx]

This is an OK approach for comparing the other casting classed but is actually hugely unrepresentative for the warlock.
I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree. It doesn't have anywhere near the utility - agreed. However a Warlock has significantly more powerful spells as they are all at the highest level.

It's just a different style. Overall they have the higher DPR to make up for the lack of utility.

[rhouck]

Warlocks spell slots>Action surge. Action surge is the only thing Eldritch Knights or Champions get from short rests. (Battle masters are obviously very different.)

And Second Wind, although it doesn't scale particularly well and doesn't compare at all to spell slots or action surge.

[Ralanr]

Warlocks spell slots>Action surge. Action surge is the only thing Eldritch Knights or Champions get from short rests. (Battle masters are obviously very different.)


And Second Wind, although it doesn't scale particularly well and doesn't compare at all to spell slots or action surge.

Ok, I figured the fighter couldn't be a Battlemaster since then short rests would be more occurrent (due to two people needing them instead of one).

[rhouck]

Ok, I figured the fighter couldn't be a Battlemaster since then short rests would be more occurrent (due to two people needing them instead of one).

Or maybe he just quietly laments not having any superiority dice left all day, and he is stuck "uselessly" swinging his sword while the Wizard steals all the glory :smallwink:


But in all seriousness, this thread does remind me of how the Warlock can be a big design risk as it is SO dependent on short rests. While many other classes benefit from short rests, no other class (except Moon Druid, although they still have full casting to fall back on) has such a big power swing depending on how often the party takes short rests. They are also the most likely to be overshadowed if the DM allows the 5 Minute Work Day.

All of which are things that a player likely has no idea about when they are choosing their class at level 1.

[keeper2161]

Actually the fighter is a battlemaster but he never really needs to use them. Him, the barbarian, the paladin, and me can handle most things. Anything we can't handle the Rouge cleans up. If we get too damaged the cleric heals us.

[HoarsHalberd]

Actually the fighter is a battlemaster but he never really needs to use them. Him, the barbarian, the paladin, and me can handle most things. Anything we can't handle the Rouge cleans up. If we get too damaged the cleric heals us.

Are you running any of the book adventures? It sounds like you might be breezing through things because you're half as strong again as what the encounters might be balanced for, and hence any resource users, such as yourself, might be falling behind because of lack of pressure to actually take rests and use resources.

[keeper2161]

Yeah we are running rise of tiamat. The dm scales us to the group size. I have dm'ed for the same group and when we have a healer we still rarely take a short rest(when I dm it is a custom adventure). When they do take a rest it's when I nearly killed everyone and the healer is out of spells, and then it's a long rest.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Playing a warlock is all about choosing your moments. Warlock spells are, by default, more powerful than the base level spells. You just need to time them right. Choose spells that don't require Concentration for a start (very difficult given how numerous the limitation is). That way you can hold on to Hex for as long as possible, even through short rests. Your Invocations also have to be carefully considered.

[pibby]

Yeah we are running rise of tiamat. The dm scales us to the group size. I have dm'ed for the same group and when we have a healer we still rarely take a short rest(when I dm it is a custom adventure). When they do take a rest it's when I nearly killed everyone and the healer is out of spells, and then it's a long rest.

Okay this sounds like the group in general doesn't understand how often they are expected to short rest per day. In the DMG it mentions that a typical party will do it twice per day. If the DM lets the party short rest twice in reasonable places, the cleric will like it as well since they will be able to do things other than heal the party.

If the martial characters insist on moving on tell them that they are not necessarily on a clock and that they can take an hour or two out of their 15-minute work day (http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/01/fifteen-minute-workday.html) for the party's convenience.

[Flashy]

Okay this sounds like the group in general doesn't understand how often they are expected to short rest per day. In the DMG it mentions that a typical party will do it twice per day. If the DM lets the party short rest twice in reasonable places, the cleric will like it as well since they will be able to do things other than heal the party.

For real. My parties generally seem to operate on the firm understanding that everyone has their own hit dice, and none of the casters are going to think too hard about using spell slots for healing unless someone is actively bleeding out.

[keeper2161]

I guess I can talk to my group but we never liked the idea of sitting for an hour in a dungeon. We are basically sitting for an hour waiting in a hostile environments. Any monster can come and catch us when we are down or give the BBEG chance to pump up defense's or escape. I know this isn't how most people play but we like to try to simulate a real world where BBEGs arent idiots.

[Flashy]

I guess I can talk to my group but we never liked the idea of sitting for an hour in a dungeon. We are basically sitting for an hour waiting in a hostile environments. Any monster can come and catch us when we are down or give the BBEG chance to pump up defense's or escape. I know this isn't how most people play but we like to try to simulate a real world where BBEGs arent idiots.

It's a perfectly legitimate way to play, but since it's not the way the system is built there are going to be classes that suffer because you're not playing within the design perimeters.

One solution I've seen people mention a lot is changing the definition of what a rest means. Many groups play with a rule set that makes a short rest 8 hours and a long rest a few days to a week. It keeps that same sort of ethos without disproportionately penalizing short rest reliant classes.

[dropbear8mybaby]

For real. My parties generally seem to operate on the firm understanding that everyone has their own hit dice, and none of the casters are going to think too hard about using spell slots for healing unless someone is actively bleeding out.

I wish groups I played in would do this. I constantly get groups using healing potions and healing spells out of combat and then end up crying and blubbering when they die in combats due to lack of healing. Sigh.

[keeper2161]

That's why we have a healer for most of our parties. Potions, wands, and staves are recommended as a way to help the cleric not run out of spells before the boss. Plus if the cleric dies or isn't there that week they can at least have a better chance of surviving.

[Kryx]

One solution I've seen people mention a lot is changing the definition of what a rest means. Many groups play with a rule set that makes a short rest 8 hours and a long rest a few days to a week. It keeps that same sort of ethos without disproportionately penalizing short rest reliant classes.
One can also go the other way and make short rests 5 mins.

That's what I did.

[Flashy]

One can also go the other way and make short rests 5 mins.

That's what I did.

Yeah that works super well too. Really, there are a lot of good solutions.

[MrStabby]

Following another discussion on here I have used the rule that a short rest is a quick break to take some food. It takes only a minute but happens outside of combat and different party members can take their breaks at different times. It is capped at two short rests per day.

This has worked out really well. There is no longer tension between party members as to whether to press on or take a short rest no is there a huge variation in the number of short rests that happen each day. This rule has brought warlocks more into line with the other casters.

[Rhaegar14]

Following another discussion on here I have used the rule that a short rest is a quick break to take some food. It takes only a minute but happens outside of combat and different party members can take their breaks at different times. It is capped at two short rests per day.

This has worked out really well. There is no longer tension between party members as to whether to press on or take a short rest no is there a huge variation in the number of short rests that happen each day. This rule has brought warlocks more into line with the other casters.

That's a LITTLE game-ist, but a super elegant solution that I like a lot. The DM doesn't need to "allow" the party to take a short rest, but the PCs also aren't getting their short rest resources back after every single encounter.

[HoarsHalberd]

That's a LITTLE game-ist, but a super elegant solution that I like a lot. The DM doesn't need to "allow" the party to take a short rest, but the PCs also aren't getting their short rest resources back after every single encounter.

If you want a justified reason IC, those regaining their short rests at that moment are sat down, eating, drinking and whatnot, whilst the others are on alert, checking their equipment and trying to hurry the others into moving on.

[Malifice]

As a 12th level warlock I mostly just cast eldritch blast. I use hunger of hadar a lot, it's a bigger darkness that does damage. Casting witch bolt as a level 5 spell is nice, 5d12 every round is very nice. We very rarely take short rests as we have mostly fighters and barbarians. So I mainly use my spells on bosses or when the group is having difficulty killing particularly big groups. But any other arcane class that comes in and I take an immediate step back and just spam eldritch blast as they have much better cc spells and can cast them much more often. It would be nice to be able to cast non cantrip spells more then once or twice each session. Altough I understand that the warlock is supposed to be a lot weaker then the full casters I just wish they had more versatilely.

Huh?

Barbarians - and especially warlocks and fighters have the most to gain from short rests (along with the Monk). Action surge, superiority dice, spell slots and of course all important healing.

You should be getting one every 2 or so encounters.

[Giant2005]

Warlocks are pretty fine. They are excellent at what they do even if their spellcasting is pretty sub-par. As long as you don't try and treat one like a Wizard, you will be pretty happy with the class. If you do want to treat him like a Wizard, then multiclassing into Sorcerer or Bard is your best bet.

[Shining Wrath]

This is an OK approach for comparing the other casting classed but is actually hugely unrepresentative for the warlock. Generally speaking you want to use the minimum amount of resource to get things done. A (single classed) warlock only gets his spells in big chunks. He doesn't have the luxury of expending a tactical level 2 spell slot to conserve higher slots and just tip the tide of battle with a well placed hold person. Up to level 10 that's his half his spell slots gone and he is severely limited in what else he can do. If he has used Hex, then it is all his spell slots gone. Yes you can compare total power of these spell slots but you also need to consider the power wasted through overkill.

On the other side your total power for a tough encounter is capped very much lower. Where you set up an ambush for a BBEG a wizard can prepare their full selection of spell slots (minus those they will get back with arcane recovery) and can use as many of them as they want in that fight. A warlock (on 1 short rests per day) would only be able to deploy 1/3 of their spell slots.

Warlocks are not underpowered but to keep them interesting you have to get some real use out of their invocations. You also need to find a way to have fun without expending spell slots. This is even more true if you take no short rests.

To offset that their lack of spell slots, they have the single best cantrip. There's no real problem with the warlock - I think you agree.

[MrStabby]

To offset that their lack of spell slots, they have the single best cantrip. There's no real problem with the warlock - I think you agree.

I kind of agree... There is certainly nothing wrong with it power wise, and certainly not from a damage perspective. Not quite martial amounts of damage but with more powerful resource based abilities tagged on. The invocations are mainly out of combat but add some nice RP elements to the class.

I do have a few slight worries about it though (although there are worse classes). Firstly is the issue touched on here. With the possible exception of the monk no other class needs short rests as much as the warlock. This makes the warlock a bit campaign dependant.

Similarly if there is a wide range of different difficulty encounters it is harder to get the most out of the Warlock - you conserve a spell slot for the unexpected deadly encounter you might face and end up effectively wasting it a lot of the time. Having the power when you need it and it makes a difference still depends a lot on your DM. Sure some of this is true of any class - most characters have some things they are better at fighting than others.

The biggest issue I have (and you are right I basically agree that the warlock is a pretty good class) is that combat isn't really a lot of fun. There isn't anything you can excel at. Damage you can be good at, but the warlock is still second to a lot of other classes here. You can't control as well as a druid or wizard and you don't have the spell slots to do something fun in every fight. Martial characters USUALLY have some more mechanical combat complexity to them such that different combat rounds result in them doing different things (between shove/grapple, Battle master abilities, cunning actions, smites and similar other classes tend to have more options.

On average warlocks are fine and can be great fun, but I would suggest finding out about what type of campaign a player would be playing before picking the class. A dungeon crawl with little out of combat activity would not lend itself to this class so well.

[Toadkiller]

I don't get all the anxiety about short rests, but my party has it too. I haven't been DM for 5e yet. But when I do I am going to borderline compel them.

Something like - you've been pushing for 11 hours without a breather. You're at disadvantage for that check because you're tired and hungry.

[Joe the Rat]

It's not always a DM issue.

My players forget about the short rest option - including a Fighter, a Monk, and a Warlock! I have to keep myself from making suggestions, but after everyone is tapped out on SR resources, it's always "can we hole up for 24 hours?" Dude! Take a breather and spend some hit dice!

When they do take a short rest, they have not been interrupted. I have interrupted the 10-12 hours they have to wait before they can try to take their next long rest, because time and random encounters wait for no man.

[Millface]

I don't get all the anxiety about short rests, but my party has it too. I haven't been DM for 5e yet. But when I do I am going to borderline compel them.

Something like - you've been pushing for 11 hours without a breather. You're at disadvantage for that check because you're tired and hungry.

Exhaustion is a thing, it's in the book and it's not pretty. I definitely suggest using it to encourage the proper amount of resting.

Time constraints are another way to go about this. I'm not saying make every dungeon T-minus 4 hours until something bad happens, but no matter what you're doing time should be a factor. Going after an artifact? The local thieves guild also heard it was there, if you push through 3 encounters and full rest 3 times and take 36 hours to get there instead of 8 there's a good chance that it's gone. If you aren't stealthy and the enemy knows you're there the big bad might just pack his prisoner and his treasure and leave. Alternatively he might call in more reinforcements and refortify his position.

When the party takes several days to accomplish things because they long rest instead of short rest during your 9 encounter dungeon that should take one day and they keep finding what they're after moved, impossibly guarded, or the princess dead... they start to get the hint. A long rest only dynamic says that the DM is either not providing the suggested number of encounters or he/she is not being realistic with how the world reacts to the party.

[rhouck]

I still go with that, even if the rest of the party doesn't think they NEED a short rest, the OP (as a Warlock) obviously at least wants one. The rest of the party should accommodate that.

In the party where I play a Paladin, we have a Warlock. Often I have nothing to gain from a short rest, but when he says "hey guys, could we take a break so I can recover my spell slots?", I am fine with it. A short rest helps the PARTY even if it doesn't help my character directly.

This idea of not short resting unless everyone "needs" to is just poor teamwork.

[Malifice]

I still go with that, even if the rest of the party doesn't think they NEED a short rest, the OP (as a Warlock) obviously at least wants one. The rest of the party should accommodate that.

In the party where I play a Paladin, we have a Warlock. Often I have nothing to gain from a short rest, but when he says "hey guys, could we take a break so I can recover my spell slots?", I am fine with it. A short rest helps the PARTY even if it doesn't help my character directly.

This idea of not short resting unless everyone "needs" to is just poor teamwork.

Agree, but it's also DM dependent often.

Some DMs don't see (or ignore) the 'meta' considerations of the short rest/ long rest recharge system. In thier defence, some players try to game the rest mechanics unfairly (rest cycling).

Some common sense should prevail of course. Warlocks (and fighters and monks) are balanced around the 2-3 short rest 6-9 encounter adventuring day.

I wouldn't play either unless I had discussed the DM and the groups understanding of rest pacing in the relevant campaign. If the general rule was we were expected to stick to that pacing more often than not, then the classes balance fine. With less short rests I'd be hesitant. With a more liberal allowance, I'd be more inclined to play one of those three.

Personally I allow for the 5 minute short rest but have a soft cap of 2-3 per long rest (barring healing). Long rests remain at 8 hours.

It's working fine but wilderness encounters (which are generally 1/day) are hard to regulate against nova strikes. Not too much of a problem in dungeons as players self regulate expecting half a dozen encounters in a standard AD.

Next campaign Im contemplating a more gritty 8 hour/ 1 week mix and seeing how that plays out. It answers many of my problems (slows healing, creates more risk/ reward, reigns in nova strikes/ grittier feel) all in one stroke.

Anyone else using the 8/7 split?

[ghost_warlock]

Following another discussion on here I have used the rule that a short rest is a quick break to take some food. It takes only a minute but happens outside of combat and different party members can take their breaks at different times. It is capped at two short rests per day.

This has worked out really well. There is no longer tension between party members as to whether to press on or take a short rest no is there a huge variation in the number of short rests that happen each day. This rule has brought warlocks more into line with the other casters.

This is a really elegant solution. Basically make short rests expendable resources like Hit Dice. Pity the designers never thought of it, because it would have spared so many groups a lot of gnashing of teeth.

[coredump]

One can also go the other way and make short rests 5 mins.

That's what I did.

Wow, that makes some classes really powerful. My Paly could use his Vow of Enmity in every fight... Basically unlimited BM manuevers and Ki, Warlocks just blasting away like crazy....


(reading more...)

Putting a cap on it does help, but still makes them a lot more powerful.

Plus, as a player, I *like* the anxiety about 'rest or don't rest', it creates a tension that can be built on by the DM, or any time restraints.
You might take a SR a bit 'early' because you are in a safe spot and may not be later on.
You might not take a SR because the bad guy may figure out you are here and escape.
Or maybe you decide to risk going on before they can mount a counter attack....

There is no tension or choice to be made with a 5 minute (or 1 minute) short rest.

[Kryx]

I cap it at 2 as expected.

I prioritize game balance over any kind of tension. Some players seem to have a hard time adapting pacing to a 5e mindset which allows for short rests.

If your party is able to take 2 short rests a day then don't worry about changing it. If they aren't then game balance is affected significantly.

[Ralanr]

Plus, as a player, I *like* the anxiety about 'rest or don't rest', it creates a tension that can be built on by the DM, or any time restraints.
You might take a SR a bit 'early' because you are in a safe spot and may not be later on.
You might not take a SR because the bad guy may figure out you are here and escape.
Or maybe you decide to risk going on before they can mount a counter attack....

There is no tension or choice to be made with a 5 minute (or 1 minute) short rest.

Reminds me of the times where one needed 8 hours of straight sleep. Those were really anxious moments.

[dropbear8mybaby]

This idea of not short resting unless everyone "needs" to is just poor teamwork.

Every time, in every group I play in, whenever I suggest a short rest, I get jumped on for it. It's actually getting to the point where it's pissing me off. Of course, when the same people say they need a short rest, it's all systems go.

[georgie_leech]

Every time, in every group I play in, whenever I suggest a short rest, I get jumped on for it. It's actually getting to the point where it's pissing me off. Of course, when the same people say they need a short rest, it's all systems go.

There is no cure for being a jerk.

[Malifice]

Wow, that makes some classes really powerful. My Paly could use his Vow of Enmity in every fight... Basically unlimited BM manuevers and Ki, Warlocks just blasting away like crazy....

(reading more...)

Putting a cap on it does help, but still makes them a lot more powerful.

There is no tension or choice to be made with a 5 minute (or 1 minute) short rest.


5 minutes or 1 hour is really irrelevant. The core expectation of the game is that you get a short rest every 2-3 encounters, and a long rest every 2-3 short rests. I can throw a 'random' encounter to disrupt a 1 minute short rest as easily as I can a 1 hour short rest.

This is how my campaigns work. The players get a short rest every 2-3 encounters and no more than 2-3 per day. Just as often I will suggest they take one (for some reason, they often forget). With a soft cap of 2-3 per day, they tend to wait until they are really needed. As for time, a short rest is an arbitrary amount of time (determined relative to the story and environment) from a few minutes to as much as an hour where players catch their breath, grab a bite to eat and a drink of water, check the map, bind wounds and so forth.

For you boys and gals out there with real world military experience: Basically a 're-org'

You cant always stick to the 2-3 mark (random wilderness encounters on long road trips are generally no more than once per day) but when players come to expect the DM to throw 2-3 encounters at them per short rest and 2-3 groups of encounters per long rest (to more often than not police the rest 'meta'), they (internally) naturally pace themselves accordingly.

As a player, you never know when that 'one encounter day' is actually a one encounter day, or merely the beginning of a 6-9 encounter day, with the real challenging encounter with the BBEG at the end of those encounters. Nova early at your own risk.

A player that tries to game the rest mechanic at my table gets a curt 'no' and it sorts itself out pretty quickly. A player that novas on the first encounter of the day, better get used to being carried through the rest of the days encounters by the rest of the party (sucking for several hours of actual game play, and becoming a drain on the party).

[Giant2005]

You cant always stick to the 2-3 mark (random wilderness encounters on long road trips are generally no more than once per day)

This here has made me realize why exactly the short-rest mechanic sucks so bad.
The problem is that there isn't really any reasonable situation where a short-rest would be used - you tend to either be covering long-distance, macro travel where it is unlikely for a DM to be chucking so many encounters at you for a Short Rest to even be useful; or you are playing on the micro-level which tends to be a dangerous location where you can't be short-resting safely anyway.

[ghost_warlock]

This here has made me realize why exactly the short-rest mechanic sucks so bad.
The problem is that there isn't really any reasonable situation where a short-rest would be used - you tend to either be covering long-distance, macro travel where it is unlikely for a DM to be chucking so many encounters at you for a Short Rest to even be useful; or you are playing on the micro-level which tends to be a dangerous location where you can't be short-resting safely anyway.

It's not the mechanic that's bad, it's the duration. An hour is ridiculous, yes, but a 5-minute sandwich break is reasonable.

[Giant2005]

It's not the mechanic that's bad, it's the duration. An hour is ridiculous, yes, but a 5-minute sandwich break is reasonable.

I agree. Both the 5 minute and 8 hour versions work pretty well. The one-hour version just seems to be in the middle where it isn't useful for much of anything.

[danweasel]

This here has made me realize why exactly the short-rest mechanic sucks so bad.
The problem is that there isn't really any reasonable situation where a short-rest would be used ...or you are playing on the micro-level which tends to be a dangerous location where you can't be short-resting safely anyway.

Meh, I don't know about that. Using a fairly common random encounters construct of rolling a d6 every 10 minutes, with a random encounter on a d6, the party has a 33% chance of making it through a 1 hour short rest undisturbed.

That's hardly impossible even if it isn't "safe" exactly either. And with a little thought and planning, it seems reasonable that the odds could swing further towards the players, or that some/many encounters could be avoidable.

[Giant2005]

Meh, I don't know about that. Using a fairly common random encounters construct of rolling a d6 every 10 minutes, with a random encounter on a d6, the party has a 33% chance of making it through a 1 hour short rest undisturbed.

That's hardly impossible even if it isn't "safe" exactly either. And with a little thought and planning, it seems reasonable that the odds could swing further towards the players, or that some/many encounters could be avoidable.

I know what you mean and I'd even consider it mechanically probable that the players would be fine resting for an hour under most circumstances.
Even if the chance of success is high though, it just isn't something that isn't even really too reasonable to try. Even the Hobbits that were prone to making stupid decisions based on their customs and hunger, knew better than to stop and have tea and crumpets for an hour while within the bowels of Mordor.

[coredump]

It's not the mechanic that's bad, it's the duration. An hour is ridiculous, yes, but a 5-minute sandwich break is reasonable.

I strongly disagree. A 5-min break is all but meaningless. Just looking around a room would be a Short Rest. There would be almost no reason to not take a SR after every single encounter. At that point, why bother having short rests?

An hour is a commitment, and carries a cost. It forces the player to make a decision based on weighing the needs of regaining resources and the need to proceed quickly (for various reasons).

We were invading a small keep, we got in just fine, had some encounters and could have used a SR... but we also still had the advantage of surprise. So now we need to decide which is more important, resources or surprise.... That is the tension that leads to immersion and intensity. Good stories are born out of conflict...

[Paeleus]

Next campaign Im contemplating a more gritty 8 hour/ 1 week mix and seeing how that plays out. It answers many of my problems (slows healing, creates more risk/ reward, reigns in nova strikes/ grittier feel) all in one stroke.

Anyone else using the 8/7 split?

currently rocking through one right now. We're level 4, so everyone is still stretching their wings and figuring out the real value of a spell slot. It's tough on Sorcerers, less so on Wizards with arcane recovery, and nothing to Warlocks, Fighters, and every other short rest mechanic class.

[Xetheral]

We were invading a small keep, we got in just fine, had some encounters and could have used a SR... but we also still had the advantage of surprise. So now we need to decide which is more important, resources or surprise.... That is the tension that leads to immersion and intensity. Good stories are born out of conflict...

I'm torn. On the one hand, I completely agree with Coredump. On the other hand, I greatly dislike that the tension created by the decision whether or not to take a short rest varies so much from one character to the next, and therefore almost inevitably brings out-of-character concerns into the calculation on what to do.

If you're playing a Sorcerer, who gains nothing from short rests, your IC decision criteria is based on how much more effective the group will be if the others get a chance to take a break. That's fine, at least if you're a good enough RP'er to base your IC decisions on more than your personal preferences for you own character. But OOC, you also have to consider whether the other players can still have fun with the resources they have left. Sure, it's not great RP to take that factor into account, but otherwise you risk violating Wheaton's Law, and/or simply making the game less enjoyable for the other players.

As a DM whose primary goal is fun-maximization, I don't like the vast extra complexity that the tension between short and long rest classes produces.

[Doug Lampert]

It's not the mechanic that's bad, it's the duration. An hour is ridiculous, yes, but a 5-minute sandwich break is reasonable.

A five minute rest can restore you quite a bit, anyone who's worked physically knows that. (And incidentally, also knows that an overnight rest is nowhere near a full refresh.)

The thing is, a five minute rest can ONLY help a few times before you need a longer rest. If the short rest is 5 minutes, then there needs to be a limit on how many per hour or per day. (Which is perfectly reasonable, no more than one long rest per day is pretty standard, no more than X short rests per day is no more gamist or artificial than that.)

[Ralanr]

If a five minute rest is all warlocks needed, they'd probably be more used for heavy artillery in war than wizards.

Less slots, but with s five minute break who cares? Provided distance away.

[ISitOnGnomes]

I prefer a 15-20 min short rest myself. Its easy for people to grasp since that is an average break at most people's job. It's short enough that it doesn't seem too strange to take one in a dungeon, but still long enough that you wouldn't take a SR every encounter.

[Kryx]

A 5-min break is all but meaningless.
5 mins worked perfectly fine in 4e.

One hour has consistently resulted in groups never taking short rests. If your group can take the expected 2 short rests per day without any concern then keep the hour. If you're sacrificing campaign plot ideas to meet what the game expects then maybe you should ditch 1 hr short rests and move to 8 hr short rests and 1 week long rests.

Either way you should meet the system's expectations.


5 min short rests expect you to cap it at the system expectation of 2 short rests per day. There are no balance concerns at that point.

[Malifice]

currently rocking through one right now. We're level 4, so everyone is still stretching their wings and figuring out the real value of a spell slot. It's tough on Sorcerers, less so on Wizards with arcane recovery, and nothing to Warlocks, Fighters, and every other short rest mechanic class.

Interesting.

Taking a whole week off to recover long rest resources (and restore HP and HD) is appealing to me more and more. It solves so many of my pet peeves:


Slower and more 'realistic' healing
Less incentive to nova strike
More realistic character advancement (characters don't shoot up from 1st to 20th in a few months of in game time)
Makes using resources like action surge, spell slots, rage, HD, metamagic, ki etc more meaningful
Encourages PC's locating a 'safe base' to work from
Gives more opportunities to engage in down time activity


Definitely going to give it a go with my next campaign.

[Naanomi]

So... Champion fighter and assassin rogue form the base of the party, apart from healing they can get by without resting well.

Warlock's Eldritch blast is very impressive when other options are so hard to come by, fiend/tome? Temp HP are great at protecting precious HP, and tome rituals really provides a lot of magic that is hard to come by otherwise.

Wrap it up with... Life cleric? Efficient out of combat healing will keep this team going better than most other spells might.

Looking for things that don't rely on rests but have other time factors can be valuable when rests take so long. I'm away from books but... Beastmaster trains a pet in a set time, not determined by rest, and that is disposable, renewable HP in a system that highly values keeping HP safe

[Malifice]

So... Champion fighter and assassin rogue form the base of the party, apart from healing they can get by without resting well.

Warlock's Eldritch blast is very impressive when other options are so hard to come by, fiend/tome? Temp HP are great at protecting precious HP, and tome rituals really provides a lot of magic that is hard to come by otherwise.

Wrap it up with... Life cleric? Efficient out of combat healing will keep this team going better than most other spells might.

Looking for things that don't rely on rests but have other time factors can be valuable when rests take so long. I'm away from books but... Beastmaster trains a pet in a set time, not determined by rest, and that is disposable, renewable HP in a system that highly values keeping HP safe

Same deal with potions. They become much more vital as a healing resource.

The more I think about it the better I like the 8/7 split.

[Naanomi]

Some high level abilities represent huge power jumps too... Unlimited rage or wild shape are even stronger... recharging inspiration, superiority, and (especially) sorcery points every encounter is impressive... and calling your God for special mojo every 24 hours is brutally effective compared to the new spell schedule

[Ralanr]

Some high level abilities represent huge power jumps too... Unlimited rage or wild shape are even stronger... recharging inspiration, superiority, and (especially) sorcery points every encounter is impressive... and calling your God for special mojo every 24 hours is brutally effective compared to the new spell schedule

The only downside of this playstyle I can see is exhaustion. You could get rage back in a week, but it could take a month to remove exhaustion.

Though if that's something to like then by all means. Shows moments where some teammates have to be left behind to rest while others work.

[Malifice]

The only downside of this playstyle I can see is exhaustion. You could get rage back in a week, but it could take a month to remove exhaustion.

Though if that's something to like then by all means. Shows moments where some teammates have to be left behind to rest while others work.

That's a good point.

I'd have exhaustion drop after a short rest.

[danweasel]

Yeah, exhaustion in that setup should be reduced on a short rest.

I'd love to play a campaign that way, it seems especially appropriate for a more realistic, social-centered or exploratory campaign...but the issue I've had when proposing it before is simply player buy in, which has been extremely limited.

'Course I've entirely been involved in face to face and live online play recently, but it strikes me that PbP as in popular here would be a near perfect match for this style.

It absolutely hurts certain classes as written, notably sorcerers who are near useless without spell slots, but to a lesser extent barbarians (stingy with the rages!), clerics, and bards (as with sorcerers, no source of short rest slot regen). I'd probably look into homebrewing up some options for those classes to gain *something* on a short rest.

[Malifice]

Yeah, exhaustion in that setup should be reduced on a short rest.

I'd love to play a campaign that way, it seems especially appropriate for a more realistic, social-centered or exploratory campaign...but the issue I've had when proposing it before is simply player buy in, which has been extremely limited.

'Course I've entirely been involved in face to face and live online play recently, but it strikes me that PbP as in popular here would be a near perfect match for this style.

It absolutely hurts certain classes as written, notably sorcerers who are near useless without spell slots, but to a lesser extent barbarians (stingy with the rages!), clerics, and bards (as with sorcerers, no source of short rest slot regen). I'd probably look into homebrewing up some options for those classes to gain *something* on a short rest.

Not really.

Instead of 6-9 encounters per day, you go with: 2-3 encounters per day (rest overnight) 2-3 encounters (rest overnight) 2-3 encounters (including BBEG), go home and train/ downtime/ rest for a week or more (long rest).

As long as you are hitting the 2-3 encounters per SR and 2-3 SR per LR there is no need to add anything to any class. It doesn't matter if the short rests are 1 minute or 1 year; power levels remain the same and balance is maintained.

[coredump]

I have not tried it yet, but I have been thinking of keeping a short rest as an hour, but turning a long rest into "a day of rest'". So you need to take a full day off to 'recover'.

My main impetus was for regaining hit points, but I might use it for all LR benefits.