Free LA+4; What do I use it on? Starting level 15

[SangoProduction]

OK. The last campaign I wanted to get into that used E6 didn't work out. The GM was extremely paranoid about his players for some reason. So, onto another campaign that seems interesting.

So, I have a couple of builds I potentially want out of this. And I don't quite know what LA is useful for them. I tend to like the Shadow creature template, though it tends to be a tad silly with free total concealment..but....I think this campaign is supposed to be silly. How decent would a Vampire be?

Note: we start with wealth equivalent to a level 15 character + any unused LA. So, if it would benefit more to get that bonus wealth, than LA, you can say so. All 3.5 books are open.

EDIT: by "free LA" I do believe they mean "it doesn't impact your actual level", which also means "There is no LA buy off because it was free" (actually, it cost you quite a deal of gold, but still)

First, the obvious: Wizard into PRC that does everything the Wizard can do [which is a lot] but better. I would probably, obviously enough, want a template that makes me as small as possible, because why the heck not.

Second, the Druid; Yeah. Haven't played one...wow...like at all I think. How many years have I been playing this game? lol. I guess Nature and divine spells in general never really struck me as all that interesting until now. (Although I think I theory crafted a beast master type build [worse than a druid because spells are op as heck, but was interesting].)
-Maybe a Cleric Vampire. Maybe. Maybe also a Dwarf.

And lastly is a build suggested in my post for E6 help. Chameleon/Warshaper. Might consider taking Shadow for this especially, just because between Shadow Blend and HiPS, I am essentially invisible all the time.


Campaign Synopsis:
"The age old conflict between the Demons and devils is known nearly across the world. The tales of Bel leading the charge into the Abyss, while not exactly heroic, are the stuff of legends. The conflict between law and chaos has never been more prominent than in the Blood War. It seems as if it will go on forever.

Except that certain forces have been shifted. Unsettling rumors have begun to take hold in the more paranoia infested parts of the world, where dark cultists lurk around every corner. But what could scare even these denizens of the dark, these tellers of nightmarish tales? Nothing less than the end of the very world.

You have been summoned by Ser Gilbertous of the Knights of the Holy Omen to seek out the source of these disturbing rumors. You will go as the blessed of the realm, but what will you return as, if at all?"

[Necroticplague]

Half-goristro is good if you just wanna get close and punch people in the face. Being Huge has some inconveniences, though.

[noob]

If you want to be small the rod of wonder might do the trick since they do not say the duration of the size reducing effect.
Vampire have a lot of advantages but if you are not immune to disintegrate and other stuff of this kind(like immune to sunlight because there is a prc who create absolutely true sunlight for all the effects) you will feel fast your frailness.
Ghosts are a lot better if you want immortality and intangibility is rather in your favor since you are a caster.

[SangoProduction]

Half-goristro is good if you just wanna get close and punch people in the face. Being Huge has some inconveniences, though.

That took me on a very odd rabbit hole. Eh....anyway, what book is that from, if you know?

[SangoProduction]

If you want to be small the rod of wonder might do the trick since they do not say the duration of the size reducing effect.
Vampire have a lot of advantages but if you are not immune to disintegrate and other stuff of this kind(like immune to sunlight because there is a prc who create absolutely true sunlight for all the effects) you will feel fast your frailness.
Ghosts are a lot better if you want immortality and intangibility is rather in your favor since you are a caster.

right...lol. I forgot that about vampires. I just assumed they sparkled :)

I think there is a prestige or paragon class for vampires that gets rid of that weakness. Is there also not a spell for that?

Anyway, I really like the thought of a Ghost Wizard being brought on this quest. "I already died once, you bastards! Why am I doing this again?"

[Necroticplague]

That took me on a very odd rabbit hole. Eh....anyway, what book is that from, if you know?

An online article about variant half-fiends. Example is a half-goristro centaur. For some reason, trying to look it up on there website isn't working for me, I'll tell you when i find a working link.

EDITL Got a link to the cached version (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:EYxwXixsfp8J:archive.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/we/20060630a+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us).

[Troacctid]

The difference in wealth between level 15 and level 19 is 380,000 gp. That is a lot of gp. I don't think a level adjustment is going to be better than that.

[SangoProduction]

The difference in wealth between level 15 and level 19 is 380,000 gp. That is a lot of gp. I don't think a level adjustment is going to be better than that.

Thanks for that information. Yeah, it does seem like quite a bit.


An online article about variant half-fiends. Example is a half-goristro centaur. For some reason, trying to look it up on there website isn't working for me, I'll tell you when i find a working link.

EDITL Got a link to the cached version (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:EYxwXixsfp8J:archive.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/we/20060630a+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us).

thanks I am not sure if I dig it though. I'll keep it in mind.

[Rubik]

The difference in wealth between level 15 and level 19 is 380,000 gp. That is a lot of gp. I don't think a level adjustment is going to be better than that.Yeah, this. Totally this.

Heck, a psychoactive skin of proteus made using Words of Creation at ML 8 (84,000 gp) would be better than just about any LA +4 race you could name. The one and only exception would be a race that grants full casting as a T1 or T2 class, such as white ethergaunt.

[Nifft]

Pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie) is pretty sweet if you're 15th level and you can cast Mind Blank (so you're naturally invisible even when you cast or attack, and you're immune to Divination effects). LA +4 exactly.

Unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm) (psionic monster) has 4 racial HD, but they count as 4 Psion (Telepath) caster levels, so you don't lose much if you continue to build Psion (Telepath) or go into something like Thrallherd or Slayer. LA +4 exactly.

As to Ghosts or the Unbodied idea, you should note that permanent Incorporeal means you might not get gear. Consider Vow of Poverty, or using your wealth on Extract Gift bonuses, or discuss some other solution with your DM. Unbodied into Thrallheard means you can spend your cash on gear for your meat-slaves.

Shadow Creature template on a Petal would be pretty amazing (for a caster).

[noob]

White Ethergaunt pwns: you get wizard casting of one superior than if you had not this base creature kind compared to your level(but you are evil)
Also you have immunity to profane spells and total vision and you have super ultra high int.
(I got swordsaged part because I had to find the name of the creature)

[IronicGentleman]

Shadow Creature template on a Petal would be pretty amazing (for a caster).

This is what my Factotum//Beguiler is in a free LA4 tier gestalt. :smallbiggrin: It is absolutely fantastic.

On another topic, Half-Minotaur from Dragon Mag is really OP for a tank.

Also, remember, any time you're given free LA, use Incarnate Construct shenanigans to make it bigger, badder, and better. :smallbiggrin:

Further, anything that makes you undead is great. (Maybe talk with your DM about treating Necropolitan as LA1?)

[SangoProduction]

Also, remember, any time you're given free LA, use Incarnate Construct shenanigans to make it bigger, badder, and better. :smallbiggrin:


The hell? How is that worth -2 LA? For some classes, it's a boost to everything except skill points. And then you get free LA on top of that.

[nijineko]

Anyway, I really like the thought of a Ghost Wizard being brought on this quest. "I already died once, you bastards! Why am I doing this again?"

race faetouched, (+1) add half fey conversion template (+1), then add ghost leveled template (+2, with the option to pick up the others later, to at least another +2). benefits: among other random spell like abilities, massive CHA boost, and telekinesis. think MotUH.

if all official 3.x books are on the table, use the level buy-off rules from UA, to drop your LA back down, or at least keep you to +4 total or below. you'll lag behind in xp a bit, depending on how the DM gives it out.

as far as rp goes, with the telekinesis, you have a creative means at your disposal to occasionally "make your point" about being peeved about having died and doing this again. ^^

[Taveena]

I mean, for what it's worth, Lolth-Touched Feral Half-Minotaur is very, very good at making you a massive juggernaut, but 380,000 gp buys a lot more items of continuous spells...

[Werephilosopher]

Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) is a good one. Power resistance, boosts to all mental abilities, and useful psi-likes are very nice.

[Saintheart]

right...lol. I forgot that about vampires. I just assumed they sparkled :)

I think there is a prestige or paragon class for vampires that gets rid of that weakness. Is there also not a spell for that?

Vampire Lord gets rid of most of the weaknesses IIRC.

[Necroticplague]

The hell? How is that worth -2 LA? For some classes, it's a boost to everything except skill points. And then you get free LA on top of that.

Um, are we reading the same Incarnate Construct? Because losing all your special qualities and special attacks, likely losing most of your NA, losing your previous immunities, all together sounds like being worth negative LA (especially since you probably took some LA to qualify for it, unless you were a Warforged).

[TheFurith]

As to the vampire. I'd not play one. The "unable to enter buildings unless invited by somebody with the authority to do so" bit seems infinitely problematic. Rivers would also be a hassle.

[Curmudgeon]

I mean, for what it's worth, Lolth-Touched Feral Half-Minotaur is very, very good at making you a massive juggernaut, but 380,000 gp buys a lot more items of continuous spells...
You've still got another +1 LA available there, which could be the Faerûn Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave for Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight.

There are ways to stretch your budget. A Feathered Wings graft (Fiend Folio) for nonmagical flight at 2x your land speed is only 10,000 gp. (Your Lolth-Touched template will have already made your alignment compatible with that graft.) "Items of continuous spells" assumes your DM is willing to disregard the "actual value" magic item rules and allow custom magic items and have crafters willing to create those custom items cheaply for you; I wouldn't count on any of those assumptions being true. For magic items you can actually buy (those in the books), missing all that gold means you'll have a bunch of +1 or +2 items instead of +3 or +4 items. If you add up all the ability boosts you get from the templates you'll see they're pretty valuable. Lolth-Touched alone grants STR +6, CON +6. A Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#manualofGainfulExercise) and a Manual of Bodily Health +5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#manualofBodilyHealth) will cost you 275,000 and only give you STR +5, CON +5. Really, not having gp is only a temporary inconvenience at high level. Just look at Table 3–3: Treasure Values per Encounter (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 51) to see what your party should be hauling in at every encounter.

[Rubik]

Whereas Planar Binding two efreet, buffing yourself to high Heaven, and debuffing them to the Abyss and back before proceeding to Dominate them for a few days and gaining +5 to ALL your stats is entirely free. Or you could just offer to make a deal of "for every two days' Wishes that go to me, I'll make two for you, so long as we both agree to make and grant our Wishes with no ill will" for a nice, non-morally-questionable alternative.

Assuming you're a wizard, anyway. They get practically all the best toys.

[Sagetim]

Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) is a good one. Power resistance, boosts to all mental abilities, and useful psi-likes are very nice.

I'd have to second Phenric, it's got some very nice psi like abilities and a great charisma bonus. And if you can find a class you want to use that has charisma as it's main stat, you could stack half fey on top of that for more spell like abilities, built in flight and a total +8 to charisma.

for flight: You could potentially pick up a Redeemed Fiendish Graft for wings instead of regular flavor, under the rules in the book of exalted deeds. They would probably cost a bit more, but they would open the item up as an option for good instead of having to be evil just to use them.

If your campaign set up is like that, I would suggest against wizard or another limit per day caster, because it sounds like you'll wind up fighting a Lot of demons and devils and what not. So you'll probably want to have the ability to not have to rest for 8 hours in the middle of hell (or what have you). Wizard can be theoretically powerful, but if you're stuck in hell fighting wave after wave of enemies, you'll want staying power.

[Curmudgeon]

for flight: You could potentially pick up a Redeemed Fiendish Graft for wings instead of regular flavor, under the rules in the book of exalted deeds.
What rules are those? I see rules for redeemed characters and for redeemed magic items.

A graft is not a magic item. It does not radiate magic once completed (although a graft might require the casting of specific spells as part of the construction process), and it does not take up a body slot like a magic item would. A graft cannot be suppressed with dispel magic, nor is it affected by an antimagic field or similar effects.

[Rubik]

I'd have to second Phenric, it's got some very nice psi like abilities and a great charisma bonus.Despite being very much in love with psionics, I'm not a terribly big fan of the phrenic template. I don't care for many of the psi-like abilities it gives. It'd be MUCH better, both from an optimization standpoint and from a customization standpoint, if you got to choose which powers you get from a certain level range, instead, even if you only got a handful.

As it stands, most are either just +numbers or direct damage. Yes, a few are very useful, but I'd never take most of them on a psion character, honestly. That, and the whole thing seems very cookie-cutter.

YMMV, however.

[Inevitability]

Do template class levels (such as Ghost or Half-Dragon) count as LA? Could you take four levels in Ghost and then ignore the virtual LA you receive through these?

[Crake]

Vampire Lord gets rid of most of the weaknesses IIRC.

not only that it explicitly has no LA, and is designed to be used by player characters in high level groups. If you want a vampire, there is no better starting point than the vampire lord template.

[KingSmitty]

gotta second pixie. It's 4 LA so its not so bad, but the LA +6 version with irresistable dance at that point is worth it since you're getting +4 LA free.

irresistable dance lets you force an opponent to start dancing, SR but no save.

[JW86]

The Half-Fiend template (LA+4) might fit storywise (gives you hooks into "papa was a Balor" maybe?) and grants Str +4, Dex +4, Con +2, Int +4, Cha +2, some nice SLAs, darkvision, poison immunity, acid, cold, electricity and fire resistance 20, batwings etc. Useful for a lot of character concepts!

The Half-Celestial template (LA+4) could also fit (I Smite Thee Evildoers!) and grants Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +4, feathered wings, are immune toacid, cold, disease, and electricity and gain a +4 racial bonus to fort saves vs. poison.

Then there is the Saint (LA+4) template which gives you lots of nice things and is sometimes considered OP/Broken.

[defiantdan]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12219.0 all the template shennanigans you could need. see what you can get away with. Ancient Undead from Ravenloft is totally boss. It's like an OP lich, just without any LA.

[Inevitability]

Then there is the Saint (LA+4) template which gives you lots of nice things and is sometimes considered OP/Broken.

Isn't Saint +2 LA?

[Nifft]

gotta second pixie. It's 4 LA so its not so bad, but the LA +6 version with irresistable dance at that point is worth it since you're getting +4 LA free.

irresistable dance lets you force an opponent to start dancing, SR but no save.

He could be a level 13 Wizard with the spell-like ability Irresistible Dance 1/day.

Or he could be a level 15 Wizard and cast Irresistible Dance with one of his 8th level spell slots.

One of these choices is strictly better than the other.

[Heliomance]

not only that it explicitly has no LA, and is designed to be used by player characters in high level groups. If you want a vampire, there is no better starting point than the vampire lord template.

This is not true. The developer has, I believe, gone on record as stating he intended that to be the case, but the version in the book has no listed LA and is thus technically not legal for PC play. Ask your DM, YMMV.

[JW86]

Isn't Saint +2 LA?

Good point. Yes, definitely broken!

[IronicGentleman]

Isn't Saint +2 LA?

Yup. So you go Warforged, add Half-Minotaur (if your DM will let you), then Incarnate Construct, then Saint, then something else for Pallys/Fighters/Barbarians.

For casters, I favour Petal with Shadow Creature. At-will total concealment?! Insane ability adjustments, and okay Petal SuAs?! Fey type?! 1/d Plane Shift at CL 15?! +2 to every save?! It's literally invincible. (Evasion is okay too.)

[Necroticplague]

This is not true. The developer has, I believe, gone on record as stating he intended that to be the case, but the version in the book has no listed LA and is thus technically not legal for PC play. Ask your DM, YMMV.

Well, the version I've seen (Vampire Lord from the online article here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a)) doesn't have an LA entry at all. As a result, we go to the rules for templates
A template’s description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature. The changes that a template might cause to each line of a creature ’s statistics block are discussed below. Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as “Same as the base creature.”
Ergo the lack of an "LA:___" line means that it defaults to 'same as base creature'.

Incidentally, looking at the Vampire Lord template, it's technically nigh-impossible to apply. It 'can be applied to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature with a character level of at least 10 that has already had the vampire template applied to it'. The problem being that all creatures with the vampire template are undead, not humanoid or monstrous humanoids. Thank you, Human Heritage to the rescue!

[Taelas]

Incidentally, looking at the Vampire Lord template, it's technically nigh-impossible to apply. It 'can be applied to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature with a character level of at least 10 that has already had the vampire template applied to it'. The problem being that all creatures with the vampire template are undead, not humanoid or monstrous humanoids. Thank you, Human Heritage to the rescue!

I don't see the problem. They weren't undead before the vampire template was applied, and as that template is also part of the requirement, it works.

[Necroticplague]

I don't see the problem. They weren't undead before the vampire template was applied, and as that template is also part of the requirement, it works.

Because two parts of it 'humanoid or monstrous humanoid' and 'already had the vampire template applied' are contradictory. If it meets the latter qualification, it no longer qualifies for the former (as vampires are undead). You can't meet both at once unless you have Human Heritage.

[Dusk Eclipse]

He could be a level 13 Wizard with the spell-like ability Irresistible Dance 1/day.

Or he could be a level 15 Wizard and cast Irresistible Dance with one of his 8th level spell slots.

One of these choices is strictly better than the other.

Thread title AND the OP mentions that it is "free" LA so it would be a level 15 Pixie Wizard who can use Irresistible Dance as a SLA 1/day and cast any other 8th level spell, like say Greater Planar Binding with one of his 8th level spell slots.

This choice is strictly better than either of yours.

[Uhtred]

Pick up two of the Half-Elemental templates, from Manual of the Planes! Good stat bonuses, no penalties, fun immunities, and spell-likes (Elemental swarm 1/day at high levels?!) every couple of levels! All for the low low cost of +2 LA each. :) Combine opposite elements for the most fun you can have with templates.

[Nifft]

Thread title AND the OP mentions that it is "free" LA so it would be a level 15 Pixie Wizard who can use Irresistible Dance as a SLA 1/day and cast any other 8th level spell, like say Greater Planar Binding with one of his 8th level spell slots.

This choice is strictly better than either of yours.

The thread says that +4 LA is free.

6 is not 4.

6 is not free, only 4 is free.

It's the first thing in the thread's title.

Did you not even read the title of the thread?

[Dusk Eclipse]

My bad, I hadn't noticed that having Irresistible dance send Pixies LA to +6. My apologies.

[Rubik]

What about using the LA for qualifications? Are there any feats, ACFs, PrCs, or racial-type classes that require some racial quality or ability that you've always wanted to try out? Illithid savant, or a dragon archetype? How about fiend of possession?

[noob]

"Illithid savant"
Blatantly overpowered and excessively useful for shenanigans.

[KingSmitty]

He could be a level 13 Wizard with the spell-like ability Irresistible Dance 1/day.

Or he could be a level 15 Wizard and cast Irresistible Dance with one of his 8th level spell slots.

One of these choices is strictly better than the other.

that doesn't include the racial modifiers to make it an even comparison.

[Nifft]

that doesn't include the racial modifiers to make it an even comparison.

The race is "Pixie" in both cases.

Yours has too much LA due to Otto's dance.

What specific "racial modifiers" do you think would differ?

[marphod]

Isn't Saint +2 LA?
Good point. Yes, definitely broken!

It requires 3 Exalted Feats, never walking near the thoughts of things that could debatably make a paladin think that they are vaguely close to something might cause them to slightly tip a little towards falling, must be 6th level, and must make an 'extraordinary' sacrifice.

Which means taking at least 2 sub-par feats (Nymph's Kiss is hard to argue with, but I have a hard time getting excited about most of the rest. Although, Intuitive Attack can help with some MAD characters), being as tempting to the DM to test you/make you fall as a Paladin, if not moreso, not an option for starting characters, and subject to DM fiat to qualification.

[Taelas]

Because two parts of it 'humanoid or monstrous humanoid' and 'already had the vampire template applied' are contradictory. If it meets the latter qualification, it no longer qualifies for the former (as vampires are undead). You can't meet both at once unless you have Human Heritage.

That is not how it works. You are looking at each line in isolation. They are not two separate prerequisites -- just one. A vampire IS a humanoid (or monstrous humanoid) with the vampire template applied -- in other words, an undead. That is the only way to fulfill the prerequisites.

[martixy]

Foregoing the caster suggestions and discrete LA everyone is going for, how about a Lolth-touched, half-minotaur white dragonspawn goliath? With monkey grip. Bring that huge-*ss sword to bear on your enemies! Have someone cast enlarge person on you too.
Be that mythical Goliath!
Just beware of David, the Stone Dragon Halfling Warblade :p

[Troacctid]

You can't cast Enlarge Person on a Goliath, silly, they're monstrous humanoids. :smalltongue:

[Inevitability]

You can't cast Enlarge Person on a Goliath, silly, they're monstrous humanoids. :smalltongue:

Lords of Madness has a Ring of Enlarge Person that words regardless of creature type.

Don't ask me why it's in that book. Maybe they liked the idea of a Large Illithid (the ring being on one of his face tentacles, of course) or Huge Beholder?

[Lerondiel]

...a psychoactive skin of proteus made using Words of Creation at ML 8 (84,000 gp) would be better than just about any LA +4 race you could name. The one and only exception would be a race that grants full casting as a T1 or T2 class, such as white ethergaunt.

Or sylph? 19th level sorcerer at 15th level + shenanigans for spell access...or the master spellthief/ultimate magus cheddar?

[Sagetim]

If you wanted to go melee power house, you could go Karsite (+2 LA Human subrace), Feral (+1 LA inherited template from savage species), and Mineral Warrior (+1 LA applied template from a level 6 spell or some such). Between them all you'd have fast healing, damage reduction/adamantine, SR, healing when you resist an incoming spell, the ability to suppress enemy magic items, and really high bonuses to strength and constitution (at the cost of some mental stats, admittedly).

While it wouldn't work for a wizard (or any caster, Karsites can't use magic) you could run a binder, tome of battle class, psion, etc. because the prohibition specifies arcane and divine spellcasting. Karsites also have built in light and medium armor and martial weapon proficiency. And to be specific: When a Karsite hits an enemy in melee they have the supernatural ability to suppress that targets magic combat items (like weapon, armor, etc). And while you can still take class levels that grant arcane and divine spells as a karsite, you can't use the spells. So a Karsite Paladin would have smite, lay on hands, divine grace, the remove disease per week uses (because they are spell like abilities) and so on, but they wouldn't have the paladin spells (but could probably still take alternate class features that would x the spells out).