Dungeon Delving Gestalt Character?

[Afgncaap5]

So, a friend is suggesting that I make a character for playing in The World's Largest Dungeon, and he's opening the campaign up to gestalt builds. We've never done gestalt things before, and while I have a lot of basic ideas about ways to take advantage of the system, I've never really looked in depth at gestalt options. Right now my considerations include...

-A Sorcerer/Swordsage to get to Jade Phoenix Mage quickly.
-A Wizard/Fighter(or Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian/etc.) so that I can finally give the Arcane Archer a shot (is it fair to say "No pun intended" if I realized after typing sh what I was saying?)
-The 'Luckiest Character Alive': a halfling Luckstealer with luck feats and possibly things like the Fate Spinner and Fortune's Friend classes down the line.
-A Dragon Shaman/Ninja that prestiges into Gnome Gianter Killer... and then probably some other things.

Any other thoughts on gestalt options? I'm not trying to power optimize myself to the point where I can shrug off anything the dungeon will throw at me (honestly, dying in the World's Largest Dungeon will give me a chance to make a second character), I'm just trying to go for something that sounds like a lot of fun in a huge cave crawl. The Arcane Archer, for instance, is one I want to pick for the visual of shooting arrows down twisty corridors and at impossible angles.

Pertinent info:
-The DM said that he'd be letting us keep gestalting even when we took a prestige class, which, if I recall correctly, is different from the standard gestalt rules.
-He said that he'd like us to only have one prestige class for the character, which I can get behind. He later said that he'd open up more options than he initially expected, but didn't specifically nix this rule, so I'm assuming that my Arcane Archer won't also be able to take levels in Abjurant Champion at the same time.
-So far one player is going to be a Druid/Healer, so the divine/healing side of magic is probably accounted for already.

[DMVerdandi]

I like the Wizard//Fighter/Arcane Archer Idea. However, you can do better by picking up Able Learner, and possibly throwing a single level of rogue in there for the skills.


I think a cool option would be a Psychic Rogue//Psion. Sneaky Sneaky.

Another one that could possibly be dope is Battle Sorcerer//Dragon fire Adept. You get spells, but Invocations and a breath weapon will definitely keep the character going for a stable duration.

Finally perhaps Artificer 20/Warblade 20 could be really cool as a roving forge master. Someone who knows their way around a weapon in the deep recesses of the dungeon is completely invaluable.

[Oberon Kenobi]

Know who fits right into a giant dungeon, from a story perspective? A sewer worker.

So go Rogue / Factotum. Max ranks in the Profession (Sewer Worker) skill. Use your crazy Factotum abilities to buff that skill, and use it for everything you can get away with: identifying weird molds and giant alligators, navigating twisty tunnels, prying valuable plumbing oddments out of the walls. Take Skill Focus and be a Sewer Worker Exemplar at level 11, so you can teach your friends your secrets and woo NPCs with your overwhelming sewer knowledge. Be a goblin if you can get away with it, because obviously.

(If your DM will allow Pathfinder content, there are a lot of underground focused versions of the core classes. Lots of fun stuff to do underground!)

[Nifft]

Some Gestalt rules which I've seen prohibit dual-advancement PrCs, but not single-advancement PrCs, so Jade Phoenix Mage would be invalid, but something like Incanatrix would be legal.

Sorcerer // Swordage is a fine idea, if you'll have the points to buy up Dex, Wis and Cha, and not dump your Int or Con too much. If points are limited, Wizard // Swordsage might be better, because Swordsage has a great skill list.

Warblade // Wizard is also great, due to the Intelligence synergy.

Arcane Archer is a terrible class. Really terrible. The main feature can be replicated a level 4 spell (greater magic weapon on your bow). I'd suggest asking your DM if you can adapt a decent PrC instead:
- Soulbow (a Psionic PrC) would be a fine "hurls arcane not-arrows" class.
- Kensai could be adapted to just augment a bow instead of augmenting a melee weapon. Power Surge could be a +4 to attack and damage (instead of +8 Str) -- other than that, I think all the class powers are usable as-is.
- There are some good homebrewed Arcane Archer fixes. Pathfinder's version of the Arcane Archer includes many of the better homebrew features, so ask about that, too.

Don't know much about Luckstealer.

The Ninja // Dragon Shaman combo sounds bad -- it's two poor classes which don't seem to have much synergy. Unless I'm missing something, of course.

[JW86]

Whisper Gnome Rogue X/SwordsageY // Psion8/Slayer10/Psion2 (Telepath)

Whisper Gnome. Lots of skills. Very sneaky. Sneak attack (bolster with Assassin's Stance and items, perhaps Craven). All the maneuvers (specialise in Shadow Hand, lots of good ways to trigger and increase sneak attack damage). Immune to mind affecting. All the mental domination tricks, Schism, whatever other powers you feel will help you round it out.

You're like this tiny Yoda of the Underdark. Whatever you can't fool or crush with your brain or take out with your maneuvers&sneak attack, you can hide from really good and live to see another day.

I could picture this being quite fun to play too. Like some nervous oddity.

[Afgncaap5]

Arcane Archer is a terrible class. Really terrible. The main feature can be replicated a level 4 spell (greater magic weapon on your bow). I'd suggest asking your DM if you can adapt a decent PrC instead:
- Soulbow (a Psionic PrC) would be a fine "hurls arcane not-arrows" class.
- Kensai could be adapted to just augment a bow instead of augmenting a melee weapon. Power Surge could be a +4 to attack and damage (instead of +8 Str) -- other than that, I think all the class powers are usable as-is.
- There are some good homebrewed Arcane Archer fixes. Pathfinder's version of the Arcane Archer includes many of the better homebrew features, so ask about that, too.

Honestly, the notorious terribleness of Arcane Archer is sort of why I'm taking this chance to play it. I might go with a homebrew fix somewhere, but augmenting Soulbow and Kensai really don't fit the character. Besides, I'm looking forward to the later levels of the class when I can shoot arrows around corners and through walls. Technically reproduceable with, say, an Archerficer, but I'd rather not play a gadgetry-focused Batman just because I've got an urge to play Blue Beetle for a game.


The Ninja // Dragon Shaman combo sounds bad -- it's two poor classes which don't seem to have much synergy. Unless I'm missing something, of course.

That concept is more an attempt to recreate a cartoonish Tom Bombadil-style folk hero (with less singing and more draconic mysticism), known to gnomes as "Libra Criscopper, Balancer of... Scales." Not much to say on his front, apart from the fact that he's mostly concerned with moving through danger quickly to help others get out. Not built to be a heavy hitter. It's more taken as a nonstandard way to get to Gnome Giant Killer than anything else (plus a non-warlock way to get Spider-Climb at will.)

[noob]

Is there is multi classing exp penalties?

[Brova]

The first thing to bear in mind about gestalt is that you only get one PrC. That means that one side of the gestalt is going to be twenty levels of one base class (or potentially a multi-classed monstrosity or a complicated voltron of templates). So you probably want to look at Rogue (all the good skills, sneak attack has good synergies, good reflex), Druid (because Druid), or Artificer (bonus item creation feats), with other full casters being decent choices. Beyond that you want to find classes that complement gaps in each skills/hit dice/saves. So Rogue+Cleric is great (gets an additional good save and six skill points per level) but Sorcerer+Wizard is terrible (gets nothing). You could do worse than picking a class you like and stapling it to a class that brings it as close to full BAB, all good saves, d12 hit die, and 8 skill points/level.

Anyway, on to the specific options you're considering:

Note that taking dual progression classes is both discouraged by the gestalt rules and not particularly good. When you already are progressing fully as both a Sorcerer and a Binder, Anima Mage doesn't do much.


-A Sorcerer/Swordsage to get to Jade Phoenix Mage quickly.

Swordsage is probably the worst of the Tome of Battle classes, particularly if you don't have a Gestalt that gives full BAB or better hit dice. If you're looking for a Caster/Martial Adept, you should probably go for an Idiot Crusader build on one side. Tome of Battle classes also combine well with a Factotum gestalt, because both your maneuvers and your nova replenish every encounter.

Considering asking your DM to bump Jade Phoenix Mage to full (or higher) progression. I don't recall it having any abilities that are particularly worth the lost casting.


-A Wizard/Fighter(or Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian/etc.) so that I can finally give the Arcane Archer a shot (is it fair to say "No pun intended" if I realized after typing sh what I was saying?)

Sounds reasonable, though you probably want to be a martial adept rather than a Fighter. I've not looked at Arcane Archer for a long time, so I have no idea what the advantages are.


-The 'Luckiest Character Alive': a halfling Luckstealer with luck feats and possibly things like the Fate Spinner and Fortune's Friend classes down the line.
-A Dragon Shaman/Ninja that prestiges into Gnome Gianter Killer... and then probably some other things.

I've no particular comments on these.

[Nifft]

Honestly, the notorious terribleness of Arcane Archer is sort of why I'm taking this chance to play it. I might go with a homebrew fix somewhere, but augmenting Soulbow and Kensai really don't fit the character. Okay.


Besides, I'm looking forward to the later levels of the class when I can shoot arrows around corners and through walls. Technically reproduceable with, say, an Archerficer, but I'd rather not play a gadgetry-focused Batman just because I've got an urge to play Blue Beetle for a game. Reproducible with a Ranger or Chameleon... except you'd get to do each cool trick more than just once per day.
- Brilliant Energy Arrow
- Guided Shot
- Curse of Arrow Attraction
- Arrow Mind
- Doublestrike arrow or something
- Thing with fire and even more arrows
- Storm of Arrows and death and stuff

Plus, if you're a real spellcaster then it's pretty easy to dip into Mindbender for access to Mindsight. That helps with the whole "shoots through schools" thing, since you can locate your enemies even through walls. Ordinarily, a wall would provide total concealment, and the core Arcane Archer has no special vision modes.