Create Undead, permanent?

[ImSAMazing]

I like how Create Undead works. It is useful and very strong when you create Wights. What I don't like is that each 24 hours you need to cast the spell again. And in case of Wights, that means you have 1 8th slot or 1 9th slot always expended. Is there a way to make this Wights permanent (excluding True Polymorph ) and still make them listen to your orders?

[Inevitability]

Once they are free, Wights can be bargained with, intimidated, or bribed like any living creature. Wights are as smart as humans, they won't mindlessly attack you. However, as they are Neutral Evil rather than Lawful Evil, you should be wary.

[Princess]

Likely the "must recast every day" rule was thought up by R&D to prevent the endless growth of a Necromantic army - because if it were permanent, my Necromancer would always prepare that spell and cast it as many times as possible before every long rest, and at some point the rest of the party could just retire while my Golden Horde of Undeath conquers the entire setting.

Or, if you give the villain enough wizard levels, every day it takes the party to find the guy is another encounter with Undead Minions. If they were smart, they'd ambush you with a month's worth at once and you'd be screwed outright.

[Milo v3]

Wait, if you need to keep recasting it, how would iconic necromancer villains even work if they can't even make a horde of undead?

[Wartex1]

Wait, if you need to keep recasting it, how would iconic necromancer villains even work if they can't even make a horde of undead?

Artifacts.

[JNAProductions]

Or just blow all their slots on maintaining the army. It's pretty decent sized for a high level caster.

[CNagy]

Wait, if you need to keep recasting it, how would iconic necromancer villains even work if they can't even make a horde of undead?

You give them an item that brings back an old spell: invisibility to undead. Then he can create a horde of uncontrolled undead and walk amongst them without issue. You could house-rule that Animate Undead and Create Undead control doesn't have to be continual--that you can cast it to take control of any of the appropriate undead regardless of when you created them (or maybe even regardless of whether or not you created them--the Necromancer is a master of death magic and the usurpation of an undead will, and forcefully controlling the unwilled, certainly fits that) and how long they have been independent. This allows him to take control of important minion-like undead prior to engaging in battle with the heroes or as needed.

[SharkForce]

Wait, if you need to keep recasting it, how would iconic necromancer villains even work if they can't even make a horde of undead?

you can make a horde of undead. you can even make a horde of obedient undead (as long as you mostly want zombies). you just can't make a horde of obedient intelligent undead.

(but you can make a horde of questionably obedient intelligent undead... that just isn't what the OP asked for).

[JNAProductions]

Why do you need Wights under your command anyway? There might be other options that are just as effective.

[Sigreid]

Well, the necromancer can eventually enslave an undead being that can control other undead. Beyond that, there's finger of death on hapless villagers. I recommend children while their parents watch.

[Morcleon]

You give them an item that brings back an old spell: invisibility to undead. Then he can create a horde of uncontrolled undead and walk amongst them without issue. You could house-rule that Animate Undead and Create Undead control doesn't have to be continual--that you can cast it to take control of any of the appropriate undead regardless of when you created them (or maybe even regardless of whether or not you created them--the Necromancer is a master of death magic and the usurpation of an undead will, and forcefully controlling the unwilled, certainly fits that) and how long they have been independent. This allows him to take control of important minion-like undead prior to engaging in battle with the heroes or as needed.

But then they can't make the undead follow their commands unless he burns a spell slot to control a tiny portion of the massive horde a few times a day.

The solution I'd like to see is something that makes Animate/Create Undead work as in 3.5, where they are created and permanently under your command, but you can only control a certain amount of undead at one time. And since you can create intelligent undead, you can have them become casters and summon their own undead for a chain of command. The best part about this houserule? It works for PC necromancers too. :smallbiggrin:

[Inevitability]

Wait, if you need to keep recasting it, how would iconic necromancer villains even work if they can't even make a horde of undead?

Take apprentices and have them cast spells from scrolls, maybe? Or perhaps selling your soul to Orcus would help.

You could also just store a giantic horde someplace they can't escape (demiplane, hole in the ground, cave system) then when the time is right release them and simply lure them to where you want them.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Wait, if you need to keep recasting it, how would iconic necromancer villains even work if they can't even make a horde of undead?
Well, at the high end you could always pick Animate Dead for your level 20 Wizard ability and gain the ability to cast it with every short rest, meaning you could spam it a good 15-20 times a day in addition to any spell slots you want to spend on it, so zombie or skeleton hordes are still quite possible.

Otherwise, you make the undead, let some of them go free-willed and control them through other means. Bribery, threats, just locking them in rooms they can't leave so they serve as unwilling guards because they will attack the next living things to enter, whatever works.


The solution I'd like to see is something that makes Animate/Create Undead work as in 3.5, where they are created and permanently under your command, but you can only control a certain amount of undead at one time.

Create Undead didn't give any control, even temporary, of the undead it created in 3rd editon.

[twas_Brillig]

Otherwise, you make the undead, let some of them go free-willed and control them through other means. Bribery, threats, just locking them in rooms they can't leave so they serve as unwilling guards because they will attack the next living things to enter, whatever works.

As mentioned, if you have intelligent, evil undead, you can have intelligent, evil employers. Villains have the advantage that what they want (power, destruction, the suffering of the living, wealth at the expense of others) align well with intelligent undeads' core values, and undead will like that villains have fewer issues letting them do destructively evil things (within reason--a smart villain will still need to be strong enough to kill or dominate stupid undead that don't rampage sustainably).

[Demonic Spoon]

But then they can't make the undead follow their commands unless he burns a spell slot to control a tiny portion of the massive horde a few times a day.

The solution I'd like to see is something that makes Animate/Create Undead work as in 3.5, where they are created and permanently under your command, but you can only control a certain amount of undead at one time. And since you can create intelligent undead, you can have them become casters and summon their own undead for a chain of command. The best part about this houserule? It works for PC necromancers too. :smallbiggrin:

Net result: Wizards can have a powerful army of undead in addition to all their normal spell slots on any given adventuring day, thus destroying any semblance of balance had by necromancers.

[Shining Wrath]

Net result: Wizards can have a powerful army of undead in addition to all their normal spell slots on any given adventuring day, thus destroying any semblance of balance had by necromancers.

At this point, the campaign world pretty much has to respond; you've got a necro with an army as powerful as a mid-level lord. Anyone scrying for threats to the kingdom is going to pick you up sooner or later.

[Morcleon]

Net result: Wizards can have a powerful army of undead in addition to all their normal spell slots on any given adventuring day, thus destroying any semblance of balance had by necromancers.

With this modification, a consumed material component should also be added to animate/create undead. And it's not like they can't already have a huge horde of self simulacrums anyway.

[Eisenheim]

Wait, if you need to keep recasting it, how would iconic necromancer villains even work if they can't even make a horde of undead?

They would be built as monsters, not PCs, and their ability to control the horde would be a plot point, not even necessarily mechanized, because it's not something PCs can duplicate.

The idea that PCs and monsters should be pulling from the same pool for their most potent abilities is a pernicious game design choice from 3/3.5 and holding on to it will only make things harder in other contexts.

[Millface]

Why do you need Wights under your command anyway? There might be other options that are just as effective.

Because Wights can each have 12 zombies under their command, by the transitive property that's two Wights and 24 zombies under your command at the cost of an 8th level slot every day.

My level 17 Necromancer uses up a 6th and 8th level slot each day to maintain control over his 35 Zombies, 2 Wights, and Mummy Lord. The Mummy Lord also commands 10 Zombies of his own.

Keep them in a demiplane (that can't smell good) and don't be stupid with it and you're in a pretty good position. When DMing, while Wights could be bargained with, I would probably have that eventually bite the wizard in the arse. Necromancy is balanced surprisingly well in this edition (especially if your DM is solid and doesn't let you run around with the army everywhere you go).

[Morcleon]

They would be built as monsters, not PCs, and their ability to control the horde would be a plot point, not even necessarily mechanized, because it's not something PCs can duplicate.

The idea that PCs and monsters should be pulling from the same pool for their most potent abilities is a pernicious game design choice from 3/3.5 and holding on to it will only make things harder in other contexts.

What if you want to run an evil game and be the undead horde necromancer? And why should PCs not be able to get the same abilities as monsters if they would otherwise qualify? An NPC evil overlord necromancer and a PC necromancer should be able to get the same abilities (items are another matter, and if you tie the horde control to an artifact, that works too). It's not like two unequipped human wizard 15 have any mechanical difference if they took the same mechanical choices.

[Demonic Spoon]

With this modification, a consumed material component should also be added to animate/create undead. And it's not like they can't already have a huge horde of self simulacrums anyway.


Simulacrum being a broken spell when combined with Wish does not mean that we should be adding more broken spells, especially one that wouldn't require Wish to be broken.


What if you want to run an evil game and be the undead horde necromancer? And why should PCs not be able to get the same abilities as monsters if they would otherwise qualify? An NPC evil overlord necromancer and a PC necromancer should be able to get the same abilities (items are another matter, and if you tie the horde control to an artifact, that works too). It's not like two unequipped human wizard 15 have any mechanical difference if they took the same mechanical choices.


Mechanically, the difference is that the NPC is an NPC and the PC is a PC. No justification is needed, for the same reason that NPC warriors don't need 5 levels in fighter to attack twice on a turn, or that PC warriors get action surge and most NPC fighter-y characters don't.

Narratively, I would agree there should be some justification. If you have an evil overlord NPC, his ability to command huge swaths of undead should come from either some powerful artifact or some byproduct of his race, or possibly some divine blessing granted by some undead-loving god. That's not about mechanics, though, that's about creating a believable enemy which isn't just better than anyone else could ever hope to be just because.

Note that the solution to this problem isn't to give the necromancer PC a free army at the cost of 0 spell slots.

[Inevitability]

At this point, the campaign world pretty much has to respond; you've got a necro with an army as powerful as a mid-level lord. Anyone scrying for threats to the kingdom is going to pick you up sooner or later.

Well... Given that many rulers are either neutral or evil, I don't think they have too much trouble with an army of undead, as long as it stays away from their cities and is actively used to kill orcs, goblins, and other such monsters (which is what the average adventurer would use it for).

[ImSAMazing]

Because Wights can each have 12 zombies under their command, by the transitive property that's two Wights and 24 zombies under your command at the cost of an 8th level slot every day.

My level 17 Necromancer uses up a 6th and 8th level slot each day to maintain control over his 35 Zombies, 2 Wights, and Mummy Lord. The Mummy Lord also commands 10 Zombies of his own.

Keep them in a demiplane (that can't smell good) and don't be stupid with it and you're in a pretty good position. When DMing, while Wights could be bargained with, I would probably have that eventually bite the wizard in the arse. Necromancy is balanced surprisingly well in this edition (especially if your DM is solid and doesn't let you run around with the army everywhere you go).
How did you get a mummy lord?

[Millface]

How did you get a mummy lord?

Insanely good lucky with Control Undead, the 14th level Necromancy ability. We were running an arc in Calimshan so I did some research and the party agreed to run off with me in search of a few ancient tombs. With solid investigation and a couple sessions of effort we found a Mummy Lord, I used control, he failed his save. Odds were against me, it was a shot in the dark, really.

[Envyus]

Insanely good lucky with Control Undead, the 14th level Necromancy ability. We were running an arc in Calimshan so I did some research and the party agreed to run off with me in search of a few ancient tombs. With solid investigation and a couple sessions of effort we found a Mummy Lord, I used control, he failed his save. Odds were against me, it was a shot in the dark, really.

He seriously failed a save he has a +9 to and advantage on the save?

[Shining Wrath]

Well... Given that many rulers are either neutral or evil, I don't think they have too much trouble with an army of undead, as long as it stays away from their cities and is actively used to kill orcs, goblins, and other such monsters (which is what the average adventurer would use it for).

In a feudal system, someone rules (and taxes, and is responsible for defending) the area bordering the wilderness. That someone is going to be upset about your army being bigger than hers. Especially if your alignment is not the same as hers.

There are also people who object to the undead on general principles. You aren't near the cities? Then you are near the druids. And the fey.

[Flashy]

Insanely good lucky with Control Undead, the 14th level Necromancy ability. We were running an arc in Calimshan so I did some research and the party agreed to run off with me in search of a few ancient tombs. With solid investigation and a couple sessions of effort we found a Mummy Lord, I used control, he failed his save. Odds were against me, it was a shot in the dark, really.

AFB, but doesn't the mummy get to remake that save on a daily basis?

[Demonic Spoon]

In a feudal system, someone rules (and taxes, and is responsible for defending) the area bordering the wilderness. That someone is going to be upset about your army being bigger than hers. Especially if your alignment is not the same as hers.

There are also people who object to the undead on general principles. You aren't near the cities? Then you are near the druids. And the fey.

Who says your army is bigger than hers? Maybe your army is big, but not bigger than the local lords'? Maybe the lord in question has has some other mechanism of ensuring that you won't attempt any kind of revolution? Maybe this particular wilderness isn't crawling with high-level wizards capable of taking on you and your undead army and winning?


The DM should not be forced to write his setting such that there is some local army who will put the PC down if he tries to raise an undead army. The game should just be balanced in the first place.

And it is, in this regard, but wouldn't be if you removed the spell slot maintenance required to maintain said army.

[Morcleon]

Mechanically, the difference is that the NPC is an NPC and the PC is a PC. No justification is needed, for the same reason that NPC warriors don't need 5 levels in fighter to attack twice on a turn, or that PC warriors get action surge and most NPC fighter-y characters don't.

Narratively, I would agree there should be some justification. If you have an evil overlord NPC, his ability to command huge swaths of undead should come from either some powerful artifact or some byproduct of his race, or possibly some divine blessing granted by some undead-loving god. That's not about mechanics, though, that's about creating a believable enemy which isn't just better than anyone else could ever hope to be just because.

Note that the solution to this problem isn't to give the necromancer PC a free army at the cost of 0 spell slots.

Ah, the joys of DM fiat. :smalltongue:

As I said, you could exact another cost through expensive material components, or (OOC) by giving said character less magic items in exchange for doing minionmancy.

Also, you haven't answered the question of what if the PC is the one playing the evil necromancer and they want an undead army. For that situation, you'll need more concrete rules than just "they can because magic".


The game should just be balanced in the first place.

But it should not be balanced to the point where there's only one power level available. The game should be able support low, medium, and high power levels. 5e fails in the last regard unless everyone plays high level wizards, since there are very few options that would be considered broken at the other power levels.

[Demonic Spoon]

As I said, you could exact another cost through expensive material components, or (OOC) by giving said character less magic items in exchange for doing minionmancy.

Also, you haven't answered the question of what if the PC is the one playing the evil necromancer and they want an undead army. For that situation, you'll need more concrete rules than just "they can because magic".


Expensive material components don't work because that translates monetary value into mechanical power, and 5e's core design avoids that in a big way. That's why you cannot buy magic items by default.

Necromancers would be the only class that could get serious mechanical power through monetary investment.

If the PC is playing an evil necromancer and wants an undead army - and of course, the campaign is centered around the idea of evil PCs raising an army - then the PC can go through the same means that an NPC would - a powerful artifact, the blessing of some undead-focused god, or other miscellaneous means that aren't baked into the PC's class.


But it should not be balanced to the point where there's only one power level available. The game should be able support low, medium, and high power levels. 5e fails in the last regard unless everyone plays high level wizards, since there are very few options that would be considered broken at the other power levels.


Sure. But "let this one subclass do something utterly gamebreaking and far more powerful than anyone else can hope to do" is an incredibly janky and unbalanced way to create a "high power" mode for D&D. Instead, you could

-Give the players a set of high-power magic items, one of which could be a necromancer's artifact letting him raise an undead army. You can do this currently with no rules modifications
-Add an additional subsystem to the game, such as epic levels, to handle the high power scenario
-"Epic Boons" from the DMG, being given to all players.


"High power mode" cannot be baked into the default rules without making it an unintelligible mess. The base system needs to have an idea of what it wants to be (which i would say is moderate for D&D 5e), and then it can be customized to your heart's desire.

[Shining Wrath]

Expensive material components don't work because that translates monetary value into mechanical power, and 5e's core design avoids that in a big way. That's why you cannot buy magic items by default.

Necromancers would be the only class that could get serious mechanical power through monetary investment.

If the PC is playing an evil necromancer and wants an undead army - and of course, the campaign is centered around the idea of evil PCs raising an army - then the PC can go through the same means that an NPC would - a powerful artifact, the blessing of some undead-focused god, or other miscellaneous means that aren't baked into the PC's class.



Sure. But "let this one subclass do something utterly gamebreaking and far more powerful than anyone else can hope to do" is an incredibly janky and unbalanced way to create a "high power" mode for D&D. Instead, you could

-Give the players a set of high-power magic items, one of which could be a necromancer's artifact letting him raise an undead army. You can do this currently with no rules modifications
-Add an additional subsystem to the game, such as epic levels, to handle the high power scenario
-"Epic Boons" from the DMG, being given to all players.


"High power mode" cannot be baked into the default rules without making it an unintelligible mess. The base system needs to have an idea of what it wants to be (which i would say is moderate for D&D 5e), and then it can be customized to your heart's desire.

A DM can raise the power level of any or all characters simply by passing out magical items or high-tech items that would appear magical to D&D characters. Give your fighter a pump-action shotgun that can fire 10 rounds before reloading and does 4d8 damage per shot. Treat the attack as magical because it's a completely different tech level. You now have a pretty seriously dangerous fighter. Then give him boots of flying. Then an invisibility cloak.

No need for changes to the base game, and that fighter is a serious threat to a lot of high CR monsters all by himself.

[Demonic Spoon]

A DM can raise the power level of any or all characters simply by passing out magical items or high-tech items that would appear magical to D&D characters. Give your fighter a pump-action shotgun that can fire 10 rounds before reloading and does 4d8 damage per shot. Treat the attack as magical because it's a completely different tech level. You now have a pretty seriously dangerous fighter. Then give him boots of flying. Then an invisibility cloak.

No need for changes to the base game, and that fighter is a serious threat to a lot of high CR monsters all by himself.

Are you disagreeing with me, or reinforcing my point?

[Knaight]

But it should not be balanced to the point where there's only one power level available. The game should be able support low, medium, and high power levels. 5e fails in the last regard unless everyone plays high level wizards, since there are very few options that would be considered broken at the other power levels.

High level warrior classes can reliably pick fights with a dozen enemies and come out of it just fine. They can fight multiple giants at the same time. The fighter in particular can get in a fight with a bunch of soldiers and kill eight of them in the first six seconds, even without magic items. It might end up closer to 6 of them in the first six seconds taking misses into account, but that's still a lot.

That sounds like a high power level to me. Plus, there's not necessarily any need for all games to support all power levels. 5e does, and with the class and level system being deeply tied to D&D's roots probably should have, but I wouldn't make a general statement on games there.

[MaxWilson]

Expensive material components don't work because that translates monetary value into mechanical power, and 5e's core design avoids that in a big way. That's why you cannot buy magic items by default.

Necromancers would be the only class that could get serious mechanical power through monetary investment.

Eh? Clerics can get serious mechanical power through investing in Planar Ally; fighters can get serious mechanical power through investing in purple worm poison; druids can get serious mechanical power by Planar Binding elementals; and wizards can get serious mechanical power by Gating + Planar Binding Goristros, Glabrezu, and Nycaloths in addition to elementals. (Alternative method is True Polymorph + Planar Binding.) And anybody at all can turn money into power by hiring mercenaries. (Hobgoblins make terrific hirelings BTW, to the point where I'd much rather hire a hobgoblin than kill him for XP.)

Necromancers can turn cash into power sooner, by buying skeletons and better armor/weapons for those skeletons (heavy crossbows and chain mail, for example, instead of armor scraps). But they are not the only ones who can do this.

[Inevitability]

AFB, but doesn't the mummy get to remake that save on a daily basis?

Nope. Mummy Lords have 11 intelligence, one below the limit where they do get to do that.

[PoeticDwarf]

Nope. Mummy Lords have 11 intelligence, one below the limit where they do get to do that.

What you're saying is that if you once control a mummy lord, you have a CR 15 monster forever (or till he dies)...

[charcoalninja]

What you're saying is that if you once control a mummy lord, you have a CR 15 monster forever (or till he dies)...

Seems legit.
Also Liches. They refresh spell slots as a legendary action so as their army grows they can spend exponentially more spells on magic having effectively unlimited spells. So there's your master of the undead horde right there.

[Inevitability]

Seems legit.
Also Liches. They refresh spell slots as a legendary action so as their army grows they can spend exponentially more spells on magic having effectively unlimited spells. So there's your master of the undead horde right there.

A lich has Legendary Resistance and high mental saving throws. Even if you get one, it'll probably escape control in a few hours.


What you're saying is that if you once control a mummy lord, you have a CR 15 monster forever (or till he dies)...

Yes, assuming you get it to fail a +9 saving throw it has advantage on.

[Morcleon]

A lich has Legendary Resistance and high mental saving throws. Even if you get one, it'll probably escape control in a few hours.

Order it to never attempt a saving throw or use Legendary Resistance against your control, and to cease and desist all efforts that would let it escape your control. :smallbiggrin:

[Shining Wrath]

Are you disagreeing with me, or reinforcing my point?

Violently agreeing :smallbiggrin:

[Millface]

He seriously failed a save he has a +9 to and advantage on the save?

My spell DC at the time was 18, so... yes? Lucky, sure. Far from impossible. I believe his rolls were Nat 1 and a 6. Happens to our Bladelock often enough when he's attacking, that's for sure.

[Demonic Spoon]

Eh? Clerics can get serious mechanical power through investing in Planar Ally; fighters can get serious mechanical power through investing in purple worm poison; druids can get serious mechanical power by Planar Binding elementals; and wizards can get serious mechanical power by Gating + Planar Binding Goristros, Glabrezu, and Nycaloths in addition to elementals. (Alternative method is True Polymorph + Planar Binding.) And anybody at all can turn money into power by hiring mercenaries. (Hobgoblins make terrific hirelings BTW, to the point where I'd much rather hire a hobgoblin than kill him for XP.)

Necromancers can turn cash into power sooner, by buying skeletons and better armor/weapons for those skeletons (heavy crossbows and chain mail, for example, instead of armor scraps). But they are not the only ones who can do this.

Purple worm poison's availability is determined by the DM. It is not in the PHB, it's in the DMG, and it doesn't have a price there.

Don't have Planar Binding or Gate in front of me, but doesn't the thing you gate in need to basically be friendly to you? And I don't understand how druids/TP are factoring into this.

Mercenaries are different. Mercenaries are subject to all kinds of interesting restrictions such as, among other things, availability and betrayal.

[ImSAMazing]

Order it to never attempt a saving throw or use Legendary Resistance against your control, and to cease and desist all efforts that would let it escape your control. :smallbiggrin:

Legendary resistance maybe, but not a saving throw. A saving throw is something that happens, you don't choose to, you must. You cant choose to not try to dodge the fireball coming at you, you cant choose to not make sure you die from the Banshee's fall asleep featire.

[Morcleon]

Legendary resistance maybe, but not a saving throw. A saving throw is something that happens, you don't choose to, you must. You cant choose to not try to dodge the fireball coming at you, you cant choose to not make sure you die from the Banshee's fall asleep featire.

Certain saving throws are must happen things. These would be things like poison and disease. You can't control your immune system directly, so you can't force yourself to fail. However, for most non-Constitution based saves, it's entirely possible to willingly fail them. You can just stand there and not move when the fireball comes at you. You can also just not try to resist mental spells and effects by giving in to them.

[Inevitability]

Certain saving throws are must happen things. These would be things like poison and disease. You can't control your immune system directly, so you can't force yourself to fail. However, for most non-Constitution based saves, it's entirely possible to willingly fail them. You can just stand there and not move when the fireball comes at you. You can also just not try to resist mental spells and effects by giving in to them.

RAW say no. RAI most clearly say no. RACSD are kind of neutral here. I think the DM has more than enough reason to say you can't control a lich forever, and what DM wouldn't?

[Morcleon]

RAW say no. RAI most clearly say no. RACSD are kind of neutral here. I think the DM has more than enough reason to say you can't control a lich forever, and what DM wouldn't?

What's RACSD? And while it would be entirely reasonable to say you can't control a lich forever (which is entirely OP and should not be allowed except in high power games), RAW does not say no, at least for this situation.


If it fails the saving throw and has an Intelligence of 12 or higher, it can repeat the saving throw at the end of every hour until it succeeds and breaks free.

Note that it states "can", not "must" (as is the case for many spells). Thus, you can order the lich to not make any attempt to escape your control.

[JNAProductions]

Rules As Common Sense... Um... Dictates? I'm not sure why there's a D there.

As a DM, I'd rule that it always gets its saving throw, even if you order it not to, since it's a saving throw to resist your orders. I agree that's not RAW, but it's a huge exploit.

[Morcleon]

Rules As Common Sense... Um... Dictates? I'm not sure why there's a D there.

As a DM, I'd rule that it always gets its saving throw, even if you order it not to, since it's a saving throw to resist your orders. I agree that's not RAW, but it's a huge exploit.

Ah, okay.

Well, that's the reasonable response. But exploits are half of the fun. :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[Keltest]

Who says your army is bigger than hers? Maybe your army is big, but not bigger than the local lords'? Maybe the lord in question has has some other mechanism of ensuring that you won't attempt any kind of revolution? Maybe this particular wilderness isn't crawling with high-level wizards capable of taking on you and your undead army and winning?


The DM should not be forced to write his setting such that there is some local army who will put the PC down if he tries to raise an undead army. The game should just be balanced in the first place.

And it is, in this regard, but wouldn't be if you removed the spell slot maintenance required to maintain said army.

I think it is pretty much guaranteed that any local lord would be able to muster up a significantly larger human force than any necromancer could control on their own. In order for a necromancer to have a legitimate undead army anywhere near the size of even a peasant militia, they would need to recruit independent intelligent undead as well as subcommanders, much like in a real army, to maintain that degree of control.

Having said that, an individual undead is a significantly better soldier than a peasant militiaman, even if its just a skeleton, so while your high level necromancer might not be able to rule a kingdom by himself, he could probably go around sacking small villages with impunity.

[charcoalninja]

A lich has Legendary Resistance and high mental saving throws. Even if you get one, it'll probably escape control in a few hours.



Yes, assuming you get it to fail a +9 saving throw it has advantage on.

Oh no no no, I wasn't saying he would be controlling the Lich, gods no! I brought up Liches as the in setting means of having an NPC undead army however big you want. With a lich at the helm there really isn't a practical limit on how many undead you can raise. You're more limited by materials at that point really.

[JackPhoenix]

Wait, if you need to keep recasting it, how would iconic necromancer villains even work if they can't even make a horde of undead?

Hermit background (necromancers aren't the most social type anyway) with Discovery: Means to easily control a huge army of undead.

I did something similar with my necromancer, except it wasn't direct control, but a way to create "control nexus", basically an AI networked to control the whole army (Star Wars separatist droid style). As a disadvantage, the controlling object itself could be used by pretty much anyone, it had limited (though still great) range and it was pretty fragile, meaning one good blow could turn an obedient legion of undead into an uncontrolled, rampaging horde... The most common use was having some 10 or so skeletons bound to one orb as an help in farming and industry, under non-caster NPC overseer trained in its use.

[MaxWilson]

What if you want to run an evil game and be the undead horde necromancer? And why should PCs not be able to get the same abilities as monsters if they would otherwise qualify? An NPC evil overlord necromancer and a PC necromancer should be able to get the same abilities (items are another matter, and if you tie the horde control to an artifact, that works too). It's not like two unequipped human wizard 15 have any mechanical difference if they took the same mechanical choices.

Note that you can also just make the right Persuasion check[1] and shell out some gold and be the hobgoblin horde warlord. 5E isn't short on ways to exploit bounded accuracy. The best part about an undead horde is that it is totally expendable. You never have to argue with subordinates and never have to pay for food or funerals. But it's not actually more powerful than the other options.

[1] Yes, yes, you have to find the hobgoblins first and maybe cast an illusion spell to get them negotiating. Shouldn't be a problem in most campaigns.