Human variant sometimes overrated

[spartan_ah]

I've never seen, in any guide human variant rated less than light blue.
I know feats are nice. but not all classes demand feats.
for example, bard is way better as a half elf rather than human. I would rate human in blue when it comes to a bard.
I see the same in sorcerer, can't find an important feats than worth over the ASI of a half elf.
same for wood elf and a monk, cant find any amazing feats that will put it over the wood elf abilities, or half orc fighter, when fighter has so many ASI's anyway, isn't it superior to have dark vision, extra crit die and "drop to 1 instead of 0"? EK and elf, or gnome etc, etc...
no argue that feats are nice, but I don't think that for any class they are always the highest rating...
Do you also think that sometimes human variant is OR?

[Daishain]

the high rating is a matter of versatility rather than power

pound for pound, variant human is the weakest of all races. However, no matter what kind of build you are going for, variant human has something good to offer. This is why it is valued so highly, because it goes well with literally anything.

[dropbear8mybaby]

My human variant valour bard with Inspiring Leader & War Caster at 5th-level disagrees.

Having said that, my standard human battle master with great stats also has something to say on the matter...

[Ralanr]

Honestly I do. Not even for just the feat but also for the free skill.

Regular human got screwed over.

[spartan_ah]

My human variant valour bard with Inspiring Leader & War Caster at 5th-level disagrees.

Having said that, my standard human battle master with great stats also has something to say on the matter...

disagrees with what? less high stats? lack of darkvision? immunity and resistance to charm and sleep?
I'm not saying human variant is a bad choice, but not always the best choice...

for bard you switch a feat with +2 cha (main stat), 1 skill (if i remember correctly), dark vision, resistance to charm and immunity to sleep...
can't see it equal...
Not to mention the fact how valor is MAD

[spartan_ah]

the high rating is a matter of versatility rather than power

pound for pound, variant human is the weakest of all races. However, no matter what kind of build you are going for, variant human has something good to offer. This is why it is valued so highly, because it goes well with literally anything.

it is said within terms of optimization, i can always say that a sorcerer can be more versatile with high dex, and rate light blue high elf, or say that a cleric can surley benefit a stroke of luck and rate lightfoot halfling as light blue. yet you don't see that...

[Ralanr]

Another thing I don't like is how variant human seems to be required for most optimization. I tend to pick non human races and try to work around weaknesses (which isn't as bad in 5e thankfully).

Plus side is that you're more likely to see humans in an adventuring party. Which is realistic given that humans are meant to be the more common race.
As someone whose group has normally been filled with Damphir, elves, etc, this was an unseen blessing.

[PhantomRenegade]

Human variant is definately over-rated, which isnt to say it isnt still really good because it is, but there are better races for some classes.

Anything that wants CHA will probably do better with a half-elf unless you really need two feats by level 4.

I generally consider getting human variant instead of wood elf or lightfoot halfling for a Rogue to be a net loss.

Any future race that gives +4 ASI will probably end up being better in the long run for classes where the stats given are relevant.

[Sigreid]

I've never seen, in any guide human variant rated less than light blue.
I know feats are nice. but not all classes demand feats.
for example, bard is way better as a half elf rather than human. I would rate human in blue when it comes to a bard.
I see the same in sorcerer, can't find an important feats than worth over the ASI of a half elf.
same for wood elf and a monk, cant find any amazing feats that will put it over the wood elf abilities, or half orc fighter, when fighter has so many ASI's anyway, isn't it superior to have dark vision, extra crit die and "drop to 1 instead of 0"? EK and elf, or gnome etc, etc...
no argue that feats are nice, but I don't think that for any class they are always the highest rating...
Do you also think that sometimes human variant is OR?

I think what you are seeing is that the variant Human has the most flexibility to be molded since you can use your attribute bonuses and feat to exert more control over the shape of your character at start. That and there is at least 1 feat that suits any characertain vision. I.e. crossbow expert for warlock or heavy armor for your unstoppable fighter.

[Millface]

Whether Human Variant is overpowered or overrated depends entirely upon how your table does stats. Point buy or rolling by the book (4d6 take highest 3) puts you at 16s/17s as your highest stat and 14s in your secondary more often than not.

Human Variant doesn't get anything for free (but a skill proficiency), you just essentially get an additional chance to trade a feat for an ASI.

Feats are exponentially more powerful if your main stats start at 18, ASIs are more important if they start at 15-16.

War Caster/Inspiring Leader is a nice combo for a Valor Bard, but you should be at 16 or 17 CHA tops, whereas you could be at 20 otherwise, boosting your wide repertoire of skills and charms/holds.

TL;DR Human Variant is Overpowered if you start with high stats, Overrated if you start with by the book stats.

[PotatoGolem]

I think it's also a lot more powerful using the standard AL point buy. If you can only get a stat up to 15 before racials, a +2 in your main stat isn't any better than a +1 (unless you're a mountain dwarf and can get two 18s at level 4). Since in this system a vhuman can max out his main two stats as quick as any race, they're stronger. If you could buy up to a 16, those racial +2s would matter more.

[Ouranos]

You also have to remember they're still adding stuff. More feats are coming, more options, so forth. And not EVERY build is about optimization, some are about just chilling with friends and something looked cool. Like a Bard who wants to melee, or a Druid who wants some cross-class spells, etc. Sometimes they're about covering over weaknesses in the party makeup, like lacking a Cleric or Rogue. Gotta keep an open mind, and Variant Human does that, has the mind open to fit whatever the need is.

[Sigreid]

Whether Human Variant is overpowered or overrated depends entirely upon how your table does stats. Point buy or rolling by the book (4d6 take highest 3) puts you at 16s/17s as your highest stat and 14s in your secondary more often than not.

Human Variant doesn't get anything for free (but a skill proficiency), you just essentially get an additional chance to trade a feat for an ASI.

Feats are exponentially more powerful if your main stats start at 18, ASIs are more important if they start at 15-16.

War Caster/Inspiring Leader is a nice combo for a Valor Bard, but you should be at 16 or 17 CHA tops, whereas you could be at 20 otherwise, boosting your wide repertoire of skills and charms/holds.

TL;DR Human Variant is Overpowered if you start with high stats, Overrated if you start with by the book stats.

Lots of us do roll, so he could have started with a 17 or 18. The Sr and a Rd array is really nothing more than an average roll for the risk averse.

Edit: Standard array. Phone comes up with some weird auto correct.

[Ralanr]

You also have to remember they're still adding stuff. More feats are coming, more options, so forth. And not EVERY build is about optimization, some are about just chilling with friends and something looked cool. Like a Bard who wants to melee, or a Druid who wants some cross-class spells, etc. Sometimes they're about covering over weaknesses in the party makeup, like lacking a Cleric or Rogue. Gotta keep an open mind, and Variant Human does that, has the mind open to fit whatever the need is.

Sucks for people who don't like to play humans.
Though that's a petty response, your point still stands rather well in my opinion.

[spartan_ah]

I;m not saying thy're no good, nor that they always should be rated blue.
but I think that many classes aren't feat hungry, and therefore I'd rather the extra perks that come along with the race, not just ability scores. but also racial traits which you'll never get in a human race.
yet, I haven't seen one class guide that rates human as blue...
not saying black, but blue... and usually afterwards when the feats are rated you can't see any feat that is rated as super important, so I agree that lucky is an awesome feat, but not crucial to character optimization...

[LaserFace]

Don't get hung up on the "blue" thing. Sometimes, people can make good arguments as to what is mechanically better between several alternatives; but from what I can tell 5E isn't really about that anyway. If you follow general character building guidelines (ie, Fighters put good rolls into STR, Wizards INT, etc), your character is probably going to not just operational, but enjoyable regardless of race and choice of feats (assuming they're in your game). From my perspective, you really can't screw it up.

You might find a bit of useful advice here and there, but to me, the whole color-coding system just looks like a meaningless mess of crayola, so I ignore that kind of ranking. It might have had use in 4E, but here I think you should just consider what people have to say about the actual thing in question, and make your own decision.

Anyway, I don't have the scope to know if the Human Variant is in fact overrated, but it seems like people at my table like to think about using it because they frequently play Humans, and like it spicier than +1 to stats.

[Shining Wrath]

The power of variant human lies in the fact that some feats are strong additions to one or more class archetypes, and after you get done with all the feats, there is a feat that really helps (almost) every archetype. Combined with being able to put the +2 just where you want it, it's almost always going to be a contender.

The only notable weakness for variant human is lacking darkvision, and there's a 2nd level spell for that - 8 hour duration. In a normal mixed party with spell casters, once you reach the point where 2nd level spell slots are not a critical resource (5th level? 7th? somewhere in there), variant human is as strong for your archetype as a good but not great race, and plus that you get a feat, which as noted for most archetypes is a big help.

I actually banned variant human because I thought they were OP, and strengthened normal human with one more language and one more skill. And wound up with a party of 2 wood elves, one high elf, one drow, one gnome, and one minotaur.

[1Forge]

I've never seen, in any guide human variant rated less than light blue.
I know feats are nice. but not all classes demand feats.
for example, bard is way better as a half elf rather than human. I would rate human in blue when it comes to a bard.
I see the same in sorcerer, can't find an important feats than worth over the ASI of a half elf.
same for wood elf and a monk, cant find any amazing feats that will put it over the wood elf abilities, or half orc fighter, when fighter has so many ASI's anyway, isn't it superior to have dark vision, extra crit die and "drop to 1 instead of 0"? EK and elf, or gnome etc, etc...
no argue that feats are nice, but I don't think that for any class they are always the highest rating...
Do you also think that sometimes human variant is OR?

Nah, you dont necissarily need feats, but they really help. I play a bard and I've never had a better game than with a human varient. There are so many great feats I'd rater take then a plain CHA boost. Like warcaster, magic adept (to swipe cleric spells), or lucky; not to mention the others that can add great flavour to a class (like the one that gives you battle master abilities)

[rhouck]

Feats are not always needed... but feats are almost always FUN :smallsmile:

Mechanically, I don't think V. Human is superior for every build (for Cha-based classes, I would wager that Half-Elf is almost always ideal numerically). But a lot of the benefits of other races tend to be passive things (e.g., Darkvision, advantage against Charm spells, etc.) Whereas a lot of feats give you affirmative things you can do (e.g., Polearm Master, Lucky). As a player, I remember those extra actions more than that time I resisted a Charm spell.

It also allows for certain concepts (e.g., Polearm + Sentinel) to come online at level 4, instead of level 8.

tl;dr don't worry about the exact color ratings. V. Human is blue or light blue for every class, but there should be at least one other race that is also light blue for every class.

[Vogonjeltz]

Do you also think that sometimes human variant is OR?

In an absolute sense, they have the least "value" in terms of abilities granted via race. However, they also have the greatest flexibility, which players tend to over-value.

The idea that I could do any of eight things seems to carry lots of weight, despite the fact that I only will be doing one of those eight things.

i.e. Humans can do any of 8 things, Dwarves and Elves can only do one thing, but they do that one thing better than the Human. If you can only ever do one thing...(and that one thing happens to be something a Dwarf does) then there's no optimization reason to pick Human over Dwarf.

Personally I pick Human just because I like playing a Human.

[coredump]

Feats often tend to 'define' your character concept.

My Archer concept was to be a top notch long range shot. Picking off people standing on a castle wall, etc. I really need Sharpshooter to pull that off.

Vuman means I can start that way. Let my concept come alive at level 1, instead of level..... 12? (cuz ya also needs yo Dex)

Same idea for a Polearm Fighter, etc.

Until level 12 (less for fighters/rogues) you have to choose between your main stat and a 'defining feat'. Vuman means you don't have to wait.
Inspiring Leader or Healer can really play into a character concept...... do you really want to wait until level 8?


EDIT: My Archer at level 14+ would be better off as a Wood Elf instead of a Vuman.... but I didn't want to wait that long.

[Dralnu]

Variant Human is great because...

1) You get to pick which stats to boost; the stat boost is always useful to your character because of this.

2) Using Standard Point Buy, the max starting stat is 15: adding +1 or +2 will start you at a +3 modifier and you'll max your primary stat at the same time.

3) Feats are really strong. Many character concepts rely on having a certain feat(s), and having access to those feats 4 levels earlier is a big help.

4) Lots of other race bonuses have limited use or are made redundant, especially weapon / armor proficiency.


That doesn't make Variant Human the best choice always, but it does make them a strong choice for just about everything.

A Half-orc probably is the best barbarian. Scouts probably want to pick a race with darkvision. Halflings make terrific rogues with bonus action hiding, and similar things can be done with wood elves. I'm sure other races have optimal combinations as well.

[HoarsHalberd]

Basically: Feat hungry MAD builds - Variant human can be great. (For example best barbarian build is probably a tie between VH and Half-orc, with Half orc aiming to outpace medium armour with unarmoured defence and V-human seeking to get medium armour master.)

[Sigreid]

Don't get hung up on the "blue" thing. Sometimes, people can make good arguments as to what is mechanically better between several alternatives; but from what I can tell 5E isn't really about that anyway. If you follow general character building guidelines (ie, Fighters put good rolls into STR, Wizards INT, etc), your character is probably going to not just operational, but enjoyable regardless of race and choice of feats (assuming they're in your game). From my perspective, you really can't screw it up.


This. While they are backed up with some math, and a lot of game theory and maybe some experimentation in play, all of the guides are essentially opinion.

[SharkForce]

variant human is not always the best choice, but it doesn't have to be the absolute most amazing choice ever to be light blue. it just needs to be a very good choice for optimizing.

and it always is. just because you don't absolutely need a specific feat for many classes, doesn't mean they aren't very useful and valuable for the classes. I doubt you'll see too many classes that rate, say, healer very highly... but the feat is a great pick for one person in the party to have no matter what class you are.

variant human is always highly rated because no matter what you're building, it's going to be nearly as good as the absolute best option, purely because you can assign basically all resources where you want them. you have fewer total resources, and that's why it isn't always the absolute best... I mean, if you can be really good at your core area and sorta good at something else, that's obviously better than only being really good in your core area. but the thing is, variant humans are always going to be really good in your core area if you're making good charop decisions, and that's all you need to be highly rated. whatever it is that you want to do, a variant human can do a really good job of it.

[Slipperychicken]

I think they're strong picks, but I wouldn't always go with a V-human. I've wanted to do a gnome barbarian for some time; partly to have advantage on basically everything, partly to ride a mule into the dungeon. Also, nonhumans in my games seem to be on-par with the humans; I just don't see them being outclassed or overshadowed by human PCs.

[Finieous]

Half-Elf is gold for Cha builds, but that still leaves Variant Human as sky blue. ;)

[Psikerlord]

We allow applying race stat bonuses to any stat. Players choose races based on things other than stats. Half our party is human, half not. Personally i love feats and humans get me one out the gate.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Variant Human is very good but I think you're right that sometimes people get stuck on it and don't explore all their other options.

I find the strength of Variant human is in flexibility and in getting a feat early. This means its value is decreased in longer running games, since players have more chances to grab the abilities they need. This is especially true of fighters, with their increased feat progression, since they stand a chance to get all the feats that fit their play style and raise their primary attribute to 20 with any race.

[DemonSlayer6]

A main thing to remember is that 5e is designed so that you don't have to be optimal to be effective. A Wizard built on the recommended Point-Buy/Standard Array system could have an intelligence of 8, giving it a -1 INT mod. At level 1, it still gets +1 to proficient intelligence skills, +1 spell attack bonus, DC 9 spell save, and 1 prepared spell. It's not the best, but it's better than nothing.

Now, with that out of the way, the reason that Variant Human isn't an optimized build in most cases is because optimization signifies sacrificing general capabilities to excel in some specific capacity. The Variant Human is intended to represent variety, being good in all things instead of being excellent in a few select things. Which is the opposite of optimization as is meant in RPGs.

Also, note that the +1 to two ability scores is neutral compared to the +2/+1 build of most race/subrace options. This is because ability modifiers are tied to the even numbers: ABILITY 10 is +0, it doesn't increase to +1 until ABILITY equals 12, etc. So if you grant ABILITY 15 a racial bonus, it will be either ABILITY 16 or ABILITY 17...both of which result in a +3 modifier.

-----

The net result of all of this is that if you want a good and enjoyable character, you can always choose the variant Human and not have to worry about ever being below your potential or missing out on something. That is the very reason people select the Variant Human, the very thing that attracts them to it.

But if you want to do the most that you can do, you are most likely going to want to choose something else instead. For Munchkins and Min/Maxers, this might make the Variant Human "overrated" for their specific purposes...but the game isn't judged on the basis of mix/maxing. It's judged on how much fun everyone has.