Have permission to build a "flexible" fighter. Build advice needed.

[Angelmaker]

Hello everyone.

I´ll jump directly into the fray and hope you can follow me: I play a fighter in a group withn a cleric, a druid, a warlock, a bard and a rogue.

I feel seriously unflexible: None of my fighter abilities allow me to do anything besides hitting people and most of the time my chosen fighting style (protection ) is useless, because our rogue is too far away or what have you. Apart from being stuck with the one-trick pony ( which I dont midn that much - it would have been way worse in previous editions ) I also feel my damage is lacking.

In order to not only be the thing that nobody wants to hit ( high armor class ), I talked to my GM and he agreed to let me have two builds of the same character, if it does not break immersion completely ( like switching archetype to Eldritch knight oder multiclassing ).

Current Build: Goliath, Level 6 Fighter
Str 19
Con 14
Cha 14
8 dex
10 int
12 wis

FIghting Style: protection
Archetype: Champion

Feats: Shield master

Weapons: Shield
Magic Axe ( Deals 1D8 extra thunder damage on 15-19, 2D8 on 20, damage is not doubled on crit )

I wanted to have a build that deals a bit more damage than my current one, since all the others throw a ton of damage around, and I only can compete during my action surge round. However, I cannot build a fighter/champion that deals more damage than my current build, because I lack the ideas how to do it. And advantage from attacking a prone enemy is really, really, really nice.

So, my question to you:

If you were stuck building a goliath Fighter Champion with above conditions, what would you build as a "secondary spec". Polearm mastery with Sentinel? How would you go about it? How would you compensate for loosing shield mastery? If it was only bent on having the magic axe, maybe I can talk my GM into giving me a Glaive or something with similiar propierties, if that helps you with build ideas. He´s relatively lenient with underdogs.

Or would you just, like me, scrap the idea and stick with bashing people´s face in on your shield, because it´s jsut that good already?

Ideas and comments appreciated.

[choryukami]

I would definitely go with sentinel. If the monsters never hit you, then they pay the price and they can never escape. Also, if your party makeup means you never get to use Protection, you may just want to switch to Dueling (it will also raise your damage quite a lot). Shield Mastery is useful. Every round you attack, declare that you will be attacking, then go ahead and use your bonus action to knock the enemy prone and do your full attack while they are prone, with advantage. The rogue will thank you as well. I would honestly not be a Champion, but that's because I find it boring. In your case battlemaster would be really good at ping-ing some extra damage and just being an annoyance.

Here's an alternate idea, and I'm not sure its technically RAI, but I realized that Tavern Brawler makes you proficient with literally ANYTHING that is not normally a weapon. You know what is not normally a weapon? A shield. Something to think about.. Tavern Brawler + Duel Wield. Ask your DM if he would let you do this and still keep the AC from the shield. In any case, the above idea has merit and you are still very tanky.

Barring all that, if you want to be high DPS, Polearm Mastery and Sentinel is a good combo to control movement, and Great Weapon Master just deals a lot of damage. You don't really need a shield to be tanky, but you'd be surprised at how much DPS you can do with Dueling and a Shield.

[Ralanr]

Definitely grab an offensive fighting style when you can. I'd also recommend grappling and throwing.

Given you're a Goliath, it shouldn't be unrealistic.

[Joe the Rat]

So none of the other characters are up in melee with you?

Yeah, The master of all things shield-y is a neat concept, it really requires a buddy. Or at least someone standing right behind you. If the casters keep close, you can provide some coverage for them.

Ditto on switching to duelist style.

See if your DM would let you change weapon properties (and possibly form) slightly when changing builds. You toss away the shield and grip further down, switching to Halberd stats. Or say it's a really hefty battle axe, and use Greataxe (d12, heavy) when two-handing it. Halberd style lends into the polearm/sentinel madness, greataxe is pure Great Weapon Master damage. You could also half-grow your options, and see if you can get the heavy property added when using the two-handed damage for battle axe. Sentinel works here as well, keeping that keep your friends safe vibe.

As a goliath, having an longer or heavier weapon (or you having slightly more reach) isn't too crazy. It comes down to a choice of reach and bonus action butt strike vs. more damage and a potential bonus action cleave.

[ruy343]

I second what has been said above: switching out your protection fighting style for dueling with the retraining rules at level-up is a good idea if you want more damage. You should get a second fighting style at higher levels as well, so if that interests you, maybe you could also pick it up then.

In addition, it's good to remember that fighters don't have to be one-trick ponies. With your ASIs, you can step away from combat and grab feats that give other abilities. One such feat that I would consider is the healer feat: when a player goes down, nothing is better than a one-action battle-res, followed up by an action surge to take out the guy who took your buddy down. Another useful feat is Magic initiate, granting you the ability to cast low-level spells. 1st-level spells such as jump, shield, feather fall, and longstrider stand out to me for a fighter build, and can be flavored to mean that you can push your body to its limit once per day.

However, you, sir, have a pretty high charisma score. Why is that? What made Charisma important to you when you had a Bard and a Warlock on the team? Regardless of why you did it, perhaps adventuring with them has allowed them to tutor you in their class's ways? You would make an excellent blade pact warlock or valor bard. Alternatively, you could go the sorcerer route for a multiclass that could be fun.

There are plenty of options out there. Now, related to your second "persona", I would cuation against it because it's essentially the level 10 (?) champion ability to get two fighting styles. I would urge you to consider the retraining rules to see what you can switch out for more fun. And bear in mind, you don't really need to pick specific build choices in order to do cool things, just make your character more fin. Have him revel in his strength, take risks, and intimidate others more often, and you'll have plenty of fun, methinks.

[Ralanr]

I didn't suggest switching out the protection style. Champions get another at level 10 (11?). Pick dueling then.

[rhouck]

Drop Protection. Take Defense if you want to be tanky, or Dueling if you want more damage (this is assuming you stay sword-and-board).

Switch from Champion to Battlemaster. You said you feel inflexible -- Battlemaster gives you options! Champion is not bad from a DPR perspective, but it doesn't give you any extra tricks.

Shield Master is not bad at all (remember you can Shove prone BEFORE you make your two attacks). I assume you grabbed that as your level 4 feat, and I'd grab Sentinel as your level 6 feat. Sentinel gives you stickiness (great for a tank) and gives you ways to use your reaction (if someone tries to attack the guy next to you).

[Malifice]

I can see the problems you're having here - you've picked a fighting style that doesn't mesh well with the current party - protection with nothing to really protect. I'd switch that out for duelling ASAP.

I'm not sure sentinel is for you either. Most attacks will target you anyways seeing as you're the only front line fighter so it's probably a waste.

A level of rogue for expertise in athletics and/or a level of barbarian for rage and advantage on strength checks to make shield master and athletics checks to grapple/ shove/ knock down would vastly increase your options and offensive capabilities.

Your home brew axe is kinda weird. Doesn't synergise well with champion at all. Work with what you've got I guess.

With a cleric, Druid and a bard in the party, healing is never far away. Coupled with second wind and the racial ability, hit points aren't your biggest concern. There is a good argument to ditch shield master, pick up GWM and GWS feat and style and convince your DM to retcon the axe to a great axe. Take 2 levels of barbarian to pick up rage and reckless Attack and go to town.

2-4 attacks at 1d12+16 (+1d8) with a 19-20 crit range (and advantage) - plus a bonus Attack on a kill or a crit - is nothing to sneeze at. You'll get hit more often, but with rage, tons of healing in the party and your racial and class features it won't matter that much. Also, you'll be tanking much better with reckless Attack as it will suck your DM into attacking you and taking advantage of advantage and leaving your squishy caster and rogue types alone.

[Vogonjeltz]

Hello everyone.

I´ll jump directly into the fray and hope you can follow me: I play a fighter in a group withn a cleric, a druid, a warlock, a bard and a rogue.

I feel seriously unflexible: None of my fighter abilities allow me to do anything besides hitting people and most of the time my chosen fighting style (protection ) is useless, because our rogue is too far away or what have you. Apart from being stuck with the one-trick pony ( which I dont midn that much - it would have been way worse in previous editions ) I also feel my damage is lacking.

In order to not only be the thing that nobody wants to hit ( high armor class ), I talked to my GM and he agreed to let me have two builds of the same character, if it does not break immersion completely ( like switching archetype to Eldritch knight oder multiclassing ).

Current Build: Goliath, Level 6 Fighter
Str 19
Con 14
Cha 14
8 dex
10 int
12 wis

FIghting Style: protection
Archetype: Champion

Feats: Shield master

Weapons: Shield
Magic Axe ( Deals 1D8 extra thunder damage on 15-19, 2D8 on 20, damage is not doubled on crit )

I wanted to have a build that deals a bit more damage than my current one, since all the others throw a ton of damage around, and I only can compete during my action surge round. However, I cannot build a fighter/champion that deals more damage than my current build, because I lack the ideas how to do it. And advantage from attacking a prone enemy is really, really, really nice.

So, my question to you:

If you were stuck building a goliath Fighter Champion with above conditions, what would you build as a "secondary spec". Polearm mastery with Sentinel? How would you go about it? How would you compensate for loosing shield mastery? If it was only bent on having the magic axe, maybe I can talk my GM into giving me a Glaive or something with similiar propierties, if that helps you with build ideas. He´s relatively lenient with underdogs.

Or would you just, like me, scrap the idea and stick with bashing people´s face in on your shield, because it´s jsut that good already?

Ideas and comments appreciated.

Something to bear in mind: As a Fighter you are not limited solely to your Fighter specific abilities.

Use the attack action to do things besides simply...attack. The PHB and DMG have some suggested ideas: Shoving (push/trip) which combined with your Shield Master feat mean that you can do some fancy battlefield maneuvering of enemies (shove someone out a door, a window, off a ledge, into that spike on the wall, into another character, etc...); Disarming (grab) to make enemies drop weapons, then use your interact with an object action to kick that dropped weapon somewhere else, or make that enemy spellcaster drop their spell focus (meaning that they can't use it to substitute for material components of spells), or sheathe the weapon and grab it.

Speak with your DM about the combat options in the dmg (disarming/grabbing, climbing on enemies, tumbling to avoid opportunity attacks, and so forth).

There's nothing wrong with the shield shoving idea, it can be good for augmenting your ability to shove enemies away already through the attack action.

[Tenmujiin]

If you are tired of being a one trick pony I'd suggest swapping to battle-master. Champion is best for people who either don't want to do anything but move and hit or for people who are great at improvised actions while battle-master have similar flavour but trades some raw damage and survivability for explicit abilities and choices. Also, as others have stated, your axe doesn't synergise with champion very well and if you can't keep up in damage you may as well go for utility.

[PoeticDwarf]

You already have a magic axe, and you choosed for shield master, so you can't now just two weapon fight enemies. The only thing you really can do is get another fighting style.

[Angelmaker]

@ Why do I have such a high charisma: My character was played BEFORE we had the warlock and bard join ( backstory was kind of a "clan leader´s brother´s son got banned and lost an ear in the process, when he´s trying to unite the wartorn Goliaths into something better ). Bard is gone now, since last session, so we are down one player, still warlock is there.

Thanks for all the input. We had another session yesterday, and some of the things I did get to do with my Goliath was:
- smash a wooden weapons rack and grab-pull an enemy through that rack into another rack onto a pile of SHARP weapons
- jump-grapple a flying sorceror mid-air, breaking his concentration and dealing falling damage to him and myself ( he got of a lot worse than me )
- talk smack

Conclusion: If you have a GM that does this kind of stuff, life is good. You can play a one trick pony and just improvise as you go along.
If you either don´t or lack the ideas, or it´s jsut a featureless fight, you are just out of luck, while all the skillmonkeys and casters still have tons of versatility up their sleeves.
However, you are kind of forced to do this as a warrior if you want to keep up, since as long as your casterss still ahve resources to blow, you just can´t keep up. I think this is one of the fundamental design flasws that 4E tried to do away with: Putting a resource system on every class worked balancing wise. I think I just need to lower my expectations from the warior class. Ironically, our Druid and cleric unisono complained about the lack of rests and that they are low on spell slots. I nearly bite my tongue of when I wanted to explain that it´s kind of their own damn fault when they trivialized the first two encounters by massive spellpower usage and now they have to feel like I do all the time.

@ Battlemaster: That might be the solution for my alternate persona. I need to run the numbers on that one. Still won´t fix the low damage numbers, bzut maybe the manouvers will add a bit of spice.

however in the mean time I ran some numbers for shield mastery versus polearm mastery, and to be honest, I don´t see that I benefit in the slightest by switching. Even if I´d switch to battlemaster, shield mastery seems to come out on top.

Assumptions: Enemy has AC 19, need 12 or highter to hit ( 4 strength, 3 proficiency ), 2 attacks for level 6

Regular Damage ( 1D8 weapon, enemy grants advantage. 84% chance of hitting with advantage )
(2*(1D8+4))*0.84) =
(2*8.5)*0.84 = 14.28

Regular damage at 80% probability of advantage ( felt numbers of ingame success versus enemies athletics/acrobatics )
(2*8.5)*0.84*0.8 = 11.424

Damage W Polearm master vs AC 19 ( 1D10 weapon, enemy does not grant advantage. 40% chance of hitting without advantage ):
(2*(1D10+4)+1*(1D4+4))*0.4 =
(2*(9.5)+1*(6.5))*0.4=10.2

Plus, if I switch, the rogue will lose a bit of damage, since he is also melee. He´s just very quick to zip around. Damn halflings.

Anyway, whatever I do, ( Champion for Battlemaster switch ) i can´t see Polearm mastery be better damagewise than what Shieldmastery gives you. Advantage is that good.

@ ruy343 regrading the healer feat: Our Druid is pretty adamant about dealing with the healing herself, so i´d rather not step onto taken territory. I want my character to be more fun, not other´s characters less so. It is a pretty solid idea, just doesn´t work for my current group for me. :[

@ Malifice: I will look into barbarian multiclassing. i wanted to stay pure fighter, I really wanted to! 3.5 fighter was horrible and I thought in this one the fighter´s power was close to in 4E. But it´s again so goddamn difficult to become versatile. If a caster takes a caster feat, it works for all his spells and he can siwtch spells as needed. Once you take a fighter feat it works for ONE thing sepcifically only. It´s frustrating.

[Ralanr]

Polearm mastery gives more range and the enemy can be hit when they approach you.

But I like shield master and I say go for it.

I have a similar DM when I play my barbarian. Personally I love improvised actions, and I love that 5e encourages them.

[rhouck]

however in the mean time I ran some numbers for shield mastery versus polearm mastery, and to be honest, I don´t see that I benefit in the slightest by switching. Even if I´d switch to battlemaster, shield mastery seems to come out on top.

Assumptions: Enemy has AC 19, need 12 or highter to hit ( 4 strength, 3 proficiency ), 2 attacks for level 6

Regular Damage ( 1D8 weapon, enemy grants advantage. 84% chance of hitting with advantage )
(2*(1D8+4))*0.84) =
(2*8.5)*0.84 = 14.28

Regular damage at 80% probability of advantage ( felt numbers of ingame success versus enemies athletics/acrobatics )
(2*8.5)*0.84*0.8 = 11.424

Damage W Polearm master vs AC 19 ( 1D10 weapon, enemy does not grant advantage. 40% chance of hitting without advantage ):
(2*(1D10+4)+1*(1D4+4))*0.4 =
(2*(9.5)+1*(6.5))*0.4=10.2

#1 Remember you also can't knock a creature prone who is more than one size larger than you (although ~85% are large or smaller).

#2 You are assuming an AC19 which is very high and unusual. Out of the (I believe) 408 monsters in the Monster Manual, only 41 have an AC 19 or higher -- i.e., ~10%. Far more (more than 50%) are in the AC 12-15 range. With +7 to hit, your hit percentage then is 65-80%, which makes 16.6 to 20.4.

#3 you get a free attack when someone enters your reach


Shield Mastery is still very good and has its own perks beyond just pure damage, but your assumption of AC19 skewed the results.

[Angelmaker]

Ah, math fail. I used wrong values for polearm mastery. :smallsigh: ( Used lower AC value 15 on caclulations in Shield mastery )

Damage W Polearm master vs AC 15, no crits:
(2*(1D10+4)+1*(1D4+4))*0.6 =
(2*(9.5)+1*(6.5))*0.6=15.3

So, this is 15.3 DPR versus 11.4 DPR from Shieldmastery. Starting to look a bit better. If I went into barbarian for reckless attack, to regain advantage, that might then do the trick, plus I´ll be a bit stickier thanks to Sentinel. Let´s see...

Polearm masters vs AC 15 and reckless attack:
(2*(9.5)+1*(6.5))*0.84*1.0 = 21.42

Booyah!

Allrighty, looks like our rogue needs to look after her own advantage really soon. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Hmm, no rage in heavy armor... I think I need to think this through a lot more.:smallannoyed:

[Malifice]

Ironically, our Druid and cleric unisono complained about the lack of rests and that they are low on spell slots. I nearly bite my tongue of when I wanted to explain that it´s kind of their own damn fault when they trivialized the first two encounters by massive spellpower usage and now they have to feel like I do all the time.

If your casters go 'Nova' in the first two encounters of the day, your DM isnt doing his job.

There should be 6-9 encounters in the day (per long rest), and those two should be majorly sucking for the next 4-7 encounters.

Your DM should not let them long rest untill theyve had to suffer through dragging the party down and sucking for another 4 or 5 encounters. That will stop them nova striking.

The system is balanced around the casters getting a few 'power spikes' via spell slots and chugging along at around 75 percent of the combat power of the Fighters for the rest.


@ Battlemaster: That might be the solution for my alternate persona. I need to run the numbers on that one. Still won´t fix the low damage numbers, bzut maybe the manouvers will add a bit of spice.

As a Fighter, you should be doing considerably more at will damage than the casters. Considerably more.


@ Malifice: I will look into barbarian multiclassing. i wanted to stay pure fighter, I really wanted to! 3.5 fighter was horrible and I thought in this one the fighter´s power was close to in 4E. But it´s again so goddamn difficult to become versatile. If a caster takes a caster feat, it works for all his spells and he can siwtch spells as needed. Once you take a fighter feat it works for ONE thing sepcifically only. It´s frustrating.

If you wanted versatility why pick the 'simple point and click' fighter archetype?

[Angelmaker]

If your casters go 'Nova' in the first two encounters of the day, your DM isnt doing his job.

There should be 6-9 encounters in the day (per long rest), and those two should be majorly sucking for the next 4-7 encounters.

...

If you wanted versatility why pick the 'simple point and click' fighter archetype?

See, i think I am realizing, that it might just be that I have a problem with D&D´s design overall. We are not palying the typical dungeoncrawl and when I dm my pirat campaign, this design philosophy just does not work. Hmmm, thanks for pointing me in that direction, might be something to think about.

...

At low levels it didn´t really matter. I was probably still shell-shocked from 4E and when I heard that balance in 5E was pretty good, I didn´t expect that the fighter/caster situation resembled much more the status quo in 3E. Like I said, I´ll probably take a look at battlemaster.

[Drackolus]

I'll 2nd (3rd? 15th?) battlemaster. Fun and, imho, a little op. 'Course, we had a barbarian when we had a battlemaster. However, by raw, since rogues get one sneak attack per turn and not per round, and a battlemaster will make them attack on a different turn than their main one, they should get one on your turn too. trading out one of your attacks for a 5d6+1d8+dex from your rogue is more than good. Still, even with that, having a barbarian or paladin, who arguably have the best damage per attack otherwise, makes the battlemaster a much stronger option. Still good without that, though.

[Malifice]

See, i think I am realizing, that it might just be that I have a problem with D&D´s design overall. We are not palying the typical dungeoncrawl and when I dm my pirat campaign, this design philosophy just does not work. Hmmm, thanks for pointing me in that direction, might be something to think about.

...

At low levels it didn´t really matter. I was probably still shell-shocked from 4E and when I heard that balance in 5E was pretty good, I didn´t expect that the fighter/caster situation resembled much more the status quo in 3E. Like I said, I´ll probably take a look at battlemaster.

Have a read of the DMs guide mate, some really useful info in there about the 'expected' rest and encounter pacing.

The system is balanced around 6-9 encointers per long rest and 2-3 encounters per short rest.

If you're running a non standard campaign that features 1 encounter with long breaks in between (so routine '5 minute adventuring' days) I suggest you implement the 8 hour short rest/ 1 week long rest variant.

Alternatively just do away with resting altogether and implement automatic short rest recharges every 2 or 3 encounters and long rest recharges every third recharge.

Your game will balance much better.

[Raimun]

Not sure if this helps but in my opinion there are two top tips when it comes to playing a 5e Fighter:

1) Never become a Champion.
2) Don't pick Shield as Fighting Style.

Of course, you are free to dismiss that if see some charm in being a beatstick (You: "I hit it with my swo-" DM: "Yes! We know! That's all you ever do in combat.") or feel like playing bodyguard (ie. meatshield) for the rest of party... which isn't actually that bad, tacticswise, even if I don't see myself doing it anytime soon. At least that Fighting Style doesn't cripple your options like the Champion does.

[Tenmujiin]

Not sure if this helps but in my opinion there are two top tips when it comes to playing a 5e Fighter:

1) Never become a Champion.
2) Don't pick Shield as Fighting Style.

Of course, you are free to dismiss that if see some charm in being a beatstick (You: "I hit it with my swo-" DM: "Yes! We know! That's all you ever do in combat.") or feel like playing bodyguard (ie. meatshield) for the rest of party... which isn't actually that bad, tacticswise, even if I don't see myself doing it anytime soon. At least that Fighting Style doesn't cripple your options like the Champion does.

The champion is actually quite good at improvised actions since they get 1/2 proficiency on ability checks, not just skill checks. Most people (including myself) aren't going to enjoy/understand that style and most of those are going to expect the champion to just move and attack.

[ImSAMazing]

The champion is actually quite good at improvised actions since they get 1/2 proficiency on ability checks, not just skill checks. Most people (including myself) aren't going to enjoy/understand that style and most of those are going to expect the champion to just move and attack.

This means that you also add 1/2 prof. bonus to your Initiative, and that means that you are really "flexible" :smallbiggrin: Pun Intended.