Hide in Plain Sight + Sneak Attack + Combat

[Draco_Lord]

Just out of curiosity. With Hide in Plain Sight, can I use it while I am next to someone in combat? I am thinking about a shadowdancer, and starting as a rogue. And it seems useful to be able to disappear after each hit. Or would I need to hit and run?

[Red Fel]

Just out of curiosity. With Hide in Plain Sight, can I use it while I am next to someone in combat? I am thinking about a shadowdancer, and starting as a rogue. And it seems useful to be able to disappear after each hit. Or would I need to hit and run?

Well, let's see. Here's the text of the Advanced Rogue Talent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-advanced-talents/hide-in-plain-sight-ex):
A rogue with this talent can select a single terrain from the ranger’s favored terrain list. She is a master at hiding in that terrain, and while within that terrain, she can use the Stealth skill to hide, even while being observed.

And here's the Shadowdancer text (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/shadowdancer#TOC-Hide-in-Plain-Sight-Su-):
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

So clearly, if you're in the right terrain or dim light, you can make your Stealth check, even though you're in combat and observed. The question is how easy it will be.

Looking at the Stealth description, nothing seems to distinguish "being in combat" from any other situation in which you might be observed, with one exception - Sniping:
If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.

In other words, the rules while Sniping require you to take a penalty to maintain Stealth after making an attack. By RAW, no such restriction applies to melee; however, I would rule it to work the same way. You've just attacked someone from right next to them. Even if Hide in Plain Sight lets you make a Stealth check from right next to your enemy, I'd rule that popping in and out of Stealth to attack somebody from an adjacent space triggers the same penalty as Sniping.

[Draco_Lord]

That sounds reasonable and fair. I could have sworn it mentioned combat along with being observed, but it sounds like with a pebble with darkness cast on it I should be fine. Or just blow out the torches, somehow.

Thank you very much!

[Diarmuid]

I would actually make the penalty even larger if done from melee as opposed to range, probably -30.

[Shackel]

I could see how it would operate in melee, but not at range: simply one's peripheral vision. It's a lot easier to slip out of someone's sight(think Bluff/feinting) when you're 5ft away than when you're 500ft away. Five feet away, if your opponent looks left and you go right, you're out of sight. Five hundred, you could be sprinting in one direction and it'd take you ten seconds before the enemy even needs to turn his head.

(Of course, at range, there's Spot maluses, but that's its own thing)

[grarrrg]

Pffft.
"Hide in Favored Terrain"
"Hide if near area of Dim Light"
Whatever...

REAL men hide in broad daylight:
Hellcat Stealth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/hellcat-stealth)
"You may make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a -10 penalty."

[Psyren]

Note also that combat is distracting, so anyone trying to find you during a fight (with other combatants around) gets a -5 perception.

[Crake]

Looking at the Stealth description, nothing seems to distinguish "being in combat" from any other situation in which you might be observed, with one exception - Sniping:

In other words, the rules while Sniping require you to take a penalty to maintain Stealth after making an attack. By RAW, no such restriction applies to melee; however, I would rule it to work the same way. You've just attacked someone from right next to them. Even if Hide in Plain Sight lets you make a Stealth check from right next to your enemy, I'd rule that popping in and out of Stealth to attack somebody from an adjacent space triggers the same penalty as Sniping.

It is worth noting that these rules are for not being seen at all between attacks. This is normally important, because once you've been seen, you're counted as being observed and cannot hide again. However, with hide in plain sight, there's nothing stopping you from attacking, being seen, and then hiding again without any penalty, since being seen does not hinder your ability to hide at all. It does give away your position, wheras sniping would not, but as long as you move around a bit, it shouldn't be too much of an issue, unless the enemies start readying attacks to hit you while you're visible.

[Taelas]

There are actually rules for hiding while attacking: it is outright impossible. Sniping is an exception.

In 3.5, you could do it, at a -20 penalty (though obviously you would need HiPS to get around being observed).

[BowStreetRunner]

There are actually rules for hiding while attacking: it is outright impossible. Sniping is an exception.

In 3.5, you could do it, at a -20 penalty (though obviously you would need HiPS to get around being observed).

In 3.5: It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm)

In PF: It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/stealth)

[Red Fel]

In PF: It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/stealth)

Whoop! Yeah, I missed that quote while looking for it. That kind of settles that, then, don't it? You'd basically have to withdraw to use Stealth while moving, which means you'd need a move action ready.

[Crake]

Whoop! Yeah, I missed that quote while looking for it. That kind of settles that, then, don't it? You'd basically have to withdraw to use Stealth while moving, which means you'd need a move action ready.

Would you though? You only need a move action when hiding while sniping. Normally it's done as part of a move, since you usually need to move into cover of some kind to meet the conditions to hide, but if you can literally hide while standing directly in front of someone and they're staring right at you, then you wouldn't need to even spend an action to hide. Sure, people would be able to see you inbetween attacks, but as I said, that's only a problem if they start readying actions.

[Red Fel]

Well, let's revisit some things. "When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment." So, you get to keep hiding as long as you start and end your turn in concealment, and make the appropriate Stealth check during that turn. "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging." So, you cannot use Stealth during an attack. "Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action." So, Stealth can be used after a ranged attack.
At this point, you have several ways to read it. Stealth checks cannot be made while attacking. However, if you are concealed, then attack, then withdraw and hide again, you should be fine. Sniping shows that you can make a Stealth check as a moved action after a ranged attack. The same logic should allow it to apply to melee. Attack, make a Stealth check at penalty, and keep hidden. Normally, Stealth checks are made while moving. Sniping is an explicit exception, and as written applies only to ranged attacks. Accordingly, there is no way to Stealth while in melee combat.
Your best bet, and the most inclusive trick, is to start your turn in Stealth, make an attack, then withdraw, making another Stealth check as part of the movement. In doing so, you can remain unobserved, and still remain on the positive side of pretty much every interpretation.

[Psyren]

I'm a little confused because you keep saying "attack and withdraw," but Withdraw is a full-round action (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Withdraw) and therefore can't be done on the same turn when you attack. Do you mean just move away?

But also - stealth while attacking is indeed impossible but there's nothing wrong with stealth before and after attacking. Normally the latter is impossible and this means you only get a single attack off against a flat-footed target per encounter, who then notices/observes you and you can't stealth again. But the whole point of true HiPS (e.g. Hellcat Stealth) is that you can just try to hide again even while they're paying attention to you in broad daylight, and "as part of movement" can even cover 5-foot steps if you meet the requirements to stealth while being seen.

[Red Fel]

I'm a little confused because you keep saying "attack and withdraw," but Withdraw is a full-round action (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Withdraw) and therefore can't be done on the same turn when you attack. Do you mean just move away?

But also - stealth while attacking is indeed impossible but there's nothing wrong with stealth before and after attacking. Normally the latter is impossible and this means you only get a single attack off against a flat-footed target per encounter, who then notices/observes you and you can't stealth again. But the whole point of true HiPS (e.g. Hellcat Stealth) is that you can just try to hide again even while they're paying attention to you in broad daylight, and "as part of movement" can even cover 5-foot steps if you meet the requirements to stealth while being seen.

Precisely. And yes, I meant withdraw as in "move away," not "take a withdraw action."

Basically, since you can Stealth anytime you want, you Stealth, walk in, and on your next turn, stab, take a five-foot step, and Stealth again. It's not as direct as a full attack, but it accomplishes what I think the OP's goal is. Or reasonably close to it.

[Draco_Lord]

So, been reading through this, and I want to say thank you to everyone for your answers! This has given me what I wanted, a look into how to remain hidden from my enemies while I attack from the shadows., and I might as well check on two things.

1. Spring Attack: Can I use that and stealth by the end of it? It gives me an attack and move action.

2. Spring Attack and Vital Strike: This is more of a side question. But can I use Vital Strike and Spring Attack together?

[Psyren]

1. Spring Attack: Can I use that and stealth by the end of it? It gives me an attack and move action.

Yes, but you either need HiPs or to break line of sight to all foes (e.g. spring-attacking out of fog) before you can stealth again.



2. Spring Attack and Vital Strike: This is more of a side question. But can I use Vital Strike and Spring Attack together?

No. (Flyby Attack, on the other hand...)

[Draco_Lord]

Thank you Psyren. And Gods, Vital Strike seems so useless sometimes. Every time I think about using it I decide against it, since it either doesn't work how I want it to, or it isn't as good as a full round attack.

[RolkFlameraven]

Oddly, you could Vital strike and snipe as that would be a standard action fallowed by a move, while spring attack is a full round all on its own making Vital strike not work with it.

So it really depends on just what kind of 'hit and fade' attacks you wish to be using.

[BowStreetRunner]

Just don't forget to pick up the Darkstalker feat (LoM 179) if you are going to make this a central part of your character's combat tactics.

[Psyren]

^ As this is a PF thread, your GM may require you to take the PF version, Dampen Presence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dampen-presence).

[BowStreetRunner]

^ As this is a PF thread, your GM may require you to take the PF version, Dampen Presence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dampen-presence).

Good catch. Is there anything that defeats Scent or Tremorsense in PF?

[Psyren]

Good catch. Is there anything that defeats Scent or Tremorsense in PF?

Deodorizing Agent beats the former, Boots of Soft Step or some form of flight/levitation beats the latter.