Disable device + opponents armor

[daremetoidareyo]

I was going through the dysfunction thread today, whereupon I found that Duskblades are proficient in all exotic armors and so, naturally, I decided to see what I could do with that to make an interesting character. This eventually led me to the arms and equipment guide, which had this fun little passage under the quick escape armor add-on:

"As a standard action, the wearer pulls and twists on a special lock, located on the shield side hip, which causes the armor to fall away. Each lock is unique in operation, making it difficult for anyone other than the owner to undo, especially in the middle of battle. A disable device check (DC 30) is required for someone other than the wearer to release the armor in combat. If the disable device attempt is made while the wearer is not in combat, the DC is reduced to 15."

Now armor isn't quite a "device," but this little blurb opens up the possibility, can a rogue-ish PC use disable device to sabotage armor, mid combat? They explicitly can in the case of a quick escape suit of armor, but what about traditional plate mail?

[Extra Anchovies]

There are no rules for it, so no. They can't.

You could make your own rules for it, though. Disable Device vs. AC to reduce their armor bonus by 4 and increase check penalty by 2 until the opponent spends a minute refitting the armor, or something like that.

[Psyren]

This sounds like a property unique to that specific armor and not applicable to any of the others.

In Pathfinder you could have the rogue use a Dirty Trick maneuver to abstract something like this - loosening and pulling the chestpiece up in front of their eyes (blind) or wrapping one of the chausse straps around their legs (entangled) or something similar.

[daremetoidareyo]

Thanks folks. This has me thinking that a rogue can definitely disable an opponents crossbow in battle with a little optimisation. But armor is right out, unless it's a non combat scenario.

[Psyren]

Even if you believe that though, Disable Device takes at least a round and skills that take that long provoke. They and their allies aren't likely to just stand there while you drop your guard and fiddle with their weapons.

[daremetoidareyo]

So optimize disable device a little bit to get that down to a swift or free action. Quick fingers acf from dungeonscape, a level of marshal, a few levels of exemplar. It's a one trick pony, but the day you finally get to use it, you can demonstrate to the universe that you are the mightiest monkeywrencher of all time! Best return on value in a drow based underdark campaign (those guys love crossbows).

[Psyren]

The most Quick Fingers can get you down to is a move action, and that's for a DC 10 device at most - disabling someone's crossbow mid-fight is likely to be a much higher DC than that. Move actions still provoke, so the problem is still there even if you optimize the check to autosucceed.

And all of the above is assuming that an actively wielded crossbow is something that can be disabled during combat to begin with.

But I do admit there are weirder concepts out there to try and base a character around.

[Dondasch]

There are no rules for it, so no. They can't.

Actually, there are rules for using Disable Device on armor. Weapons too.

You can find them in City of Stormreach, though the exact page escapes me. I believe they're in a section on gladiatorial combat.

[Cerefel]

Would the Arcane Trickster PrC be worth mentioning here? I feel like the extra range on disable device checks would be pretty helpful if that's how you want to use it.

[Jowgen]

Actually, there are rules for using Disable Device on armor. Weapons too.

You can find them in City of Stormreach, though the exact page escapes me. I believe they're in a section on gladiatorial combat.

This. They do exists.


Disable Device checks can be used to sabotage armor and weapons, hampering their effectiveness or even causing them to fall apart in the heat of battle. A viewer can identify a sabotaged item with close examination (Search DC 20 or 25). Use the table below to determine
the DC for a particular Disable Device check.

I won't copy the table because copyright, but the interesting DCs are DC 20 to make a weapon fall apart on hit and DC 25 for armor to fall apart on a miss.

I actually had a thread on optimizing Disable Device at somepoint last year. The main thing we tried to optimize was its ability to suppress wonderous architecture type magic items like dispel magic (see Stronghold builders guidebook). There were some class-features and specific disable device magic items we used (arcane key from some eberron book I believe?).

[Psyren]

Actually, there are rules for using Disable Device on armor. Weapons too.

You can find them in City of Stormreach, though the exact page escapes me. I believe they're in a section on gladiatorial combat.


This. They do exists.

Those aren't for combat use though. Both RAW and RAI, they are for "stablemasters" (i.e. stadium handlers) to sabotage your equipment between matches, corrupt arena style. Not for someone to monkey with plate while you're wearing it or weapons while you're aiming/swinging them.

[Dondasch]

Those aren't for combat use though. Both RAW and RAI, they are for "stablemasters" (i.e. stadium handlers) to sabotage your equipment between matches, corrupt arena style. Not for someone to monkey with plate while you're wearing it or weapons while you're aiming/swinging them.

Well, what if you get enough bonuses to Disable Device to start using these rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#disableDevice) too?

[Psyren]

Well, what if you get enough bonuses to Disable Device to start using these rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#disableDevice) too?

Epic skill usages are 3.0, which can be used in 3.5 "with minor adjustments" as Curmudgeon is wont to point out. So it's up to the DM whether that would work.

And it doesn't change the fact that outside of an arena, Disabling equipment is DM territory anyway, no matter how fast you can make it.

[Jowgen]

The Stormreach rules to not specify required time, so the standard 2d4 rounds (as per DC 20 and DC 25) to disable Weapons and armor should apply. Now in combat, an enemy is not going to hold still for even a single whole round to let you screw *hehe* with his sword.

But, if you got the action cost down far enough, I think it ought to work. I'd personally add a sleight of hand and/or a touch-attack into there to make contact prior to spending the action. And AoO should be part of it too.

[PaucaTerrorem]

How about an attack roll+disable device roll+slight of hand roll to get a dagger under a strap and cut it? Totally worth the action economy!

[daremetoidareyo]

How about an attack roll+disable device roll+slight of hand roll to get a dagger under a strap and cut it? Totally worth the action economy!

The term that I think we're looking for is Sunder?

[Psyren]

The term that I think we're looking for is Sunder?

You cannot Sunder armor in 3.5, though you can in PF. Using it with Weapon Finesse or Agile Maneuvers (you don't need both) would be an easy way to represent cutting the straps or some other dextrous interference.