D&D 5e/Next [PEACH]Fifth Edition Binder Class II (Still WIP) [Archive] - Page 2

Prince Zahn

2015-09-23, 04:43 AM

@Zahn: I'm compiling a list of all vestiges we have created.

"But Doctor, that's the vestige codex!" I hear you cry.

But I don't just mean links, as you have; I'm going to find all the ACTUAL vestiges in their most completed form (as I see it), and I'm not going to separate them based on whether they were in the book or not. (If you haven't guessed, I'm doing this so we don't have to constantly open different links-- laziness FTW!)

For now, have the first level vestiges:

*snip*
as I said, if you fellows really want something like this, you would either need to wait quite a while for me to completely reconstruct the vestige Codex (in which case I'd like to request deleting The old posts addressed in there so that I could have a conveniently positioned succession of posts as I work on it), OR, the far easier option: make it into a Google doc or similar format so that I could add it to the top of the Vestige Codex. Otherwise this will be an unnecessary clutter of posts.

Setting aside the wonderful debate about naming conventions, I'm going to be going through and taking some of my vestiges, putting them into the correct format, adding an influence (as many need), and generally wrapping it up, and then you guys can comment on abilities to change/add/remove.

Starting with my very very VERY first vestige ever: the mighty Halphax.

Halphax
The Angel in the Angle
9th Level vestige
Special Requirement: Halphax's seal must be drawn in the corner of a building or other structure.
DC: 25
Sign: Your body takes on the appearance of cracked stone.
Manifestation: When Halphax manifests, the corner in which he was summoned appears to warp, growing deeper and extending to what appears to be an inﬁnite distance beyond the limits of the structure. In that distance, a ﬁgure appears, and suddenly the distance closes, bringing Halphax into his seal. Halphax always takes the form of a gnome wearing leather breeches and a vest, both of which are covered in pockets and loops for holding tools and items. The tools of an engineer hang from his belt, and he usually appears in a posture of boredom, hands in his pockets. Halphax’s most striking feature is that he seems to have no ﬂesh and bone beneath his clothes—only broken bits of stone and masonry. The shattered features of bas-reliefs and gargoyles make up his face.

PROFICIENCIES
You gain no proficiencies from binding to Halphax.

Stone Skin
While bound to Halphax you have resistance to piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage.

Halphax's Knowledge
While bound to Halphax, add your Charisma modifier to checks relating to architecture, stonework, and so on.

Imprison
You can imprison a foe deep underground with but a touch. This acts as the imprisonment spell (PHB page 252). You can only choose the burial or hedge prison options. You can use this ability once per long rest.

Iron Wall
As an action on your turn, you can summon a wall of gleaming iron. This acts as the wall of force spell. You can have a maximum of 5 walls active at any one time.

Secure Shelter
You can cast Leomund's Tiny Hut once per short rest.
you left the special requirement from the previous edition...
stone skin (at least this version of it) is a particularly overpowered as a constant passive, especially when paired with the Warped Fate's impervious. Which isn't to say that either feature is pure, but rather that both need revision.
Adding your Charisma (?) To the ability Checks could break bounded accuracy, unless you meant instead of the normal ability score.
That being said, you may as well offer Proficiency Bonus for a ninth level vestige, but don't offer doubling it.
imprisonment should also end when you finish your pact with Halphax, it makes sense to me because nothing else you do with the Binder's pact magic gets a duration that long.
I dig Iron Wall. I feel the same for it as I did before.
I don't understand why tiny hut is short-rest powered, but stone skin is free and passive.

See to these revisions and we'll see where to take it from there.

All right, let's see what critiques I can give. It's obvious that all of you have spent quite a bit of time on this, so most of my questions are likely to be very specific. My posts will be a little more broken up than they would otherwise be due to the volume of the material you have, but I'll eventually cover everything.

When does this actually take place? Is the Everlasting Pact a separate pact entirely from the normal process, not requiring a roll, or does it take place immediately after a pact is made? If it takes place after, does this mean that it is possible to have a poorly made Everlasting Pact?As others said, Welcome Twelvetrees! I look forward to answering any questions and critiques you might have to bring up!
The everlasting pact will be revised, to address these points. To answer the question, you will need to declare you are making an everlasting pact at the same time you call a vestige that meets the prerequisites, but before you roll the check, which is otherwise rolled normally. The everlasting pact also counts against the maximum number of vestiges you could have at once.

Critique for Unfettered Fate

Does this stack with Pass Without Trace? If it does, that gives the Binder a +20 to their Dexterity (Stealth) check, which might be a little much.
you know, in the back of my mind the resemblence between this and pass without trace did kind of bug me, I remember wanting to give PWT to Malphas at one point, but opted not to. This will be reworded to ensure it doesn't stack.

(WARP THE MIND)
I think this is reasonably balanced, but I'm unsure about one thing. When the effect wears off, is the creature aware that the binder was influencing it/is it aware that something affected it adversely? the duration is Concentration (up to 1d6 rounds) the way Anaxi put it. I think I'll just remove the die roll and say Concentration (up to 1 minute) to simplify. Frankly I myself am not quite sure if the target should be aware and/or hostile as a result. What does everybody else think?

Critique for Warped Fate

What action does it take to become Otherworldly? Oh, I didn't add one, did I? I guess it'll make a good Bonus Action. Open to discussion though.

Can Impervious be Piercing, Slashing, and Bludgeoning? If so, that might be just a little strong. I'd say to limit it to everything but those three. would it be better if I added "immunities to Piercing, Slashing or bludgeoning damage do not apply only to damage from magical weapons"? It would still count towards spells that deal those types, but it won't help against a foolish samurai warrior wielding a magic sword.:smalltongue: sorry, I just had to.

Also, a rough suggestion for a third option: Call Minions. When you select this feature, choose a creature of Challenge 1/2 or lower that would be an appropriate follower of one of your vestiges. At the start of each of your turns while the effect lasts, you can summon up to two of these creatures in an unoccupied space that you can see within 90 feet. The creatures disappear when they drop to 0 hit points or when Otherworldly ends. You may only have two such creatures summoned at a time. They are friendly to you and your companions for the duration. They act immediately after you in the initiative order, obeying any verbal commands that you issue to them (no action required by you). If you don't issue any commands to the creatures, they defend themselves from hostile creatures but otherwise take no actions. I'm very much wary of giving minions because it would be a lot of work to find the balance sweetspot for it. WotC is STILL trying to figure out how to make a ranger's companion worthwhile.
2 CR 1/2 will doubtfully be much help at the levels you get otherworldly, I'm afraid.

Well, I've gone through everything but the vestiges. There's very little that I've actually noticed could be changed, so well done there. Hope this helps.Thanks! It means a lot!:smallbiggrin:

Edit: And now I notice that the subclasses are being restructured. Would you like me to go through those before I move on to critiquing the vestiges?

Hey, welcome Twelvetrees! We could use critique all around, but, since I'm interested in how the subclasses interact with the vestige system, I think we could use a look at the vestiges level-by-level (beginning with level 1). I'm interested in a few things:

How each vestige compares in power individually to vestiges of the same level
How easy the vestige is to understand
How (at lower levels) a vestige holds up as the only one bound
How (at higher levels) vestiges synergize with each other and with feats

I believe this is by far the greatest need at this moment.I pretty much agree with Scarce on this one. It's also important to keep checking that we're never giving the Binder the tools needed to be objectively superior to any given class at what it is supposed to do best, examples of this include giving the binder Combat Superiority. Features like these ought to be monitored to make sure that they don't break the game by being mixed with other features as well (I.e. by multiclassing or by the example The Giant mentioned.) But the last part is not as urgent unless a glitch becomes apparent while we're working.

Tons of stuff have come to light as I construct low level Binders. Firstly, binders are really easy to hit at lower levels, basically like a rogue or a wizard, but because they can only bind 1 vestige at a time, they have significantly fewer options than either of those classes. As such, I'm thinking that every 1st level vestige needs some ranged attack option that scales with level. Cantrips are the obvious choice for this, but Amon's fire breath is another good example. I built Naberius as a RP focused vestige, he will undoubtedly be less of a preferred option in combat than, say, Amon, who specializes in going on the offensive, because their advantages rely on a different pillar of the Roleplaying game (social interaction || Combat). Aoskar relies more on the exploration pillar, to my understanding. You could certainly give him an appropriate combat ability, but his importance lies in a game where exploration and long distance travel are important details, I suggest revising Aoskar with that at heart.
BUT I do agree that all first level vestiges need to be more of a rounded "package", offering at least a little bit from each pillar (Combat/Exploration/Social Interaction) so that the Binder can have a more flexibity with only 1 vestige.

Additionally, it's important that there are some passive defensive options available to the binder, but that these options are not too powerful. If something amounts to resistance to all damage, it's too much (obviously), but increased AC or mobility options seem about right.Nothing comes to mind at this point. What vestiges do you think would most benefit from a passive-defense feature?

Finally, I notice that (at least at levels 1 and 2, which I've been focusing on), there is a huge power gap between some of the vestiges. Dahlver-Nar and Amon, for example, seem far more powerful than Aoskar, Ronove, and Naberius.Aoskar could be built with defense and exploration in mind, as mentioned above. Naberius caters to RP much more than he does in combat, also mentioned above. How do you propose Ronove could be boosted?

Having said all that, I'm going to do another take of Dahlver-Nar, focusing on a new paradigm of 1st level vestiges, as follows:

Dahlver-Nar
The Tortured One
1st Level Vestige

Poison Breath
You can exhale toxic fumes from your mouth to cast the cantrip poison spray.

Natural Armor
While unarmored, your Armor Class is equal to 10 + your Constitution modifier + your Dexterity Modifier.

Share Harm
As a reaction when you are targeted by an attack or spell attack, you can grant the attacker advantage on the roll to select 1 creature within 30 feet to make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes damage equal to half the amount dealt.

Maddening Moan
You can let out a moan that brings a creature to the brink of insanity. You can cast dissonant whispers without expending a spell slot. After casting this spell, you must complete a short or long rest before using it again. Natural Armor is unappealing to me, because it is straight-up taken from the Barbarian. I would also rather not impose both Constitution and Dexterity on the same vestige, it goes against the advice in the quick build and puts the Binder closer to MAD. I suggest making natural Armor a base of 12 + Dexterity Modifier, which would range anywhere from 13~17 depending on how much binder invests in DEX. If you add Pact Augmentations purely on AC you can get as high as 21 AC without a shield or other investments.

Might suggest replacing the mechanics of Share Harm with those of Amon's Retribution? I was wondering why Dahlver-Nar's ability seemed so iffy. I think it is because of it being conceptually analogous to Fire Shield, a 4th level spell.
If we replaced the share pain mechanics, Amon would not have retribution, the abilities are far to similar to me, and from what I understand, Amon is powerful enough as it is.

So, looking at 1st level vestiges as they are...

Amon: fire breath, horns
Dahlver-nar: Poison Spray (now)
Roanove: Fists
Asokar: sacred flame
Naberious: Vicious Mockery

And 2nd level:
Haagnati: great weapons
Ipos: Claws
Leraje: Bows
Malphas: Sneak Attack

Two things stand out:
- one, 2nd level vestiges are about physical combat, 1st level are about magical combat, with the exception of Roanove. Maybe that's something we can look into.

- two, I think Ipos's damage dice for claws needs to be bumped down a step. I also dislike his bonus action attack and rend abilities. My suggested change:

"When you bind Ipos, you gain two natural weapon claw attacks and multi attack for these two natural weapons. Your claw attacks deal 1d4 + strength slashing damage and count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage. At 12th level, this damage increases to 1d6.

Rend
When you hit a creature with each of your claw attacks in the same turn, you may use your bonus action to deal 1d6 points of slashing damage. This increases to 1d8 at 5th level and increases to 2d8 at 11th level."

Then, add a point into Warped/Twisted fate that Increases the damage die of natural weapons gain through vestiges. You guys seem to be handling the situation with the claws, I'll step in if I have something important to say about it (right now I don't! :smallredface:) whichever iteration of Ipos's claws you agree upon, I'll help by making the W/TFB more compatible between vestige signs and unnatural weapons.

This is a good suggestion, and I'm tempted to simply edit the changes in, but I think I'll sound a few concerns first. If the claw attacks are moved down a damage die, and only hit once a round, this class will be exactly parallel to Ronove, which is a problem, because there should be some differences between 1st and 2nd level vestiges.

Secondly, I like having the damage of Rend be something on par with a second level spell (maybe something a little lower, since it's being used mid-attack) and be usable once per rest. The reasoning for this is because it feels more like an short rest spell that the player can use when the time arises, which gives the illusion of having more options in combat, as opposed to just another thing that happens every time you attack. Rest-powered features are important.Agreed completely. Rest-powered features play a valuable role in versatility. Additional damage seems more appealing at a glance than an extra attack. If you choose to cater to unarmed Strikes with both Ipos and Ronove, I suggest you have their features interact positively to eachother, as they may as well be combined for a build.

Yessir. This is Thorns.I'm going to go ahead and pretend I know the reference so I don't come off as a fool:smalltongue:

Prince Zahn

2015-09-23, 05:14 AM

ON ANOTHER NOTE!
I am likely going to have a nice amount of free time for a good week-and-a-half starting Friday. It's a golden opportunity to catch up on all those things I promised I'll do.
My only problem is I promised a lot of things, I have yet to put them all in order.
Could I trouble somebody to compile a list the things I said I'll work on but haven't yet, so that I could work on them while on vacation? Thanks in advance. If not, thanks anyway. I'll do my best to get through them all one way or another.

The_Doctor

2015-09-23, 09:26 AM

Unless I'm mistaken, that was a reference to the Minecraft enchantment Thorns, which deals your attacker a part of the damage you were dealt. Even if it wasn't, I still understand what he was saying.

I'll change Stone Skin to a duration and make it rest-powered, and make Secure Shelter at-will.

I did mean your MODIFIER in addition to the normal one, but I see your point; I'll make it a swap.

Submortimer

2015-09-23, 11:35 AM

I'm going to go ahead and pretend I know the reference so I don't come off as a fool:smalltongue:

Thorns is a general term for an enchantment in a game that deals damage taken back to the attacker. I think I first showed up with that name in Diablo or Diablo 2, but it's spread to at least WoW as well as other places.

Back on topic, vestiges are cool.

I'm actually really interested to see what you think of the Fate of the Awakened Mind (or, you know, whatever we end up calling the casting subclass). The original version didn't have much to pull from, so hopefully my version is appealing.

Scarce

2015-09-23, 01:09 PM

I'm actually really interested to see what you think of the Fate of the Awakened Mind (or, you know, whatever we end up calling the casting subclass). The original version didn't have much to pull from, so hopefully my version is appealing.

This one seems really good. I really like how few spell slots it gets. That's great at making the Awakened Mind feel like a warlock, and keeps the power in check.

Spells Known: I would maybe even reduce the spells known. I'm also not a fan of learning new spells when you bind a vestige. That's a lot of freedom you're giving the caster. Additionally, by granting access to bard spells, you've given the binder healing. I think that's a huge mistake for a class that's supposed to be arcane.

Anima Casting: I would simplify this a little:

At 3rd level, you learn to exploit your bound vestiges for magical power. As a bonus action, you may convert a vestige you currently have bound into a single spell slot of the same level. Once you have done so, you lose access to that vestige's powers until you take a long rest, and you cannot renegotiate your pact with it.
I don't know about the Wild Magic stuff, but I'm not super against it either.

Anima Mark: I like this feature, but I think there's a grammar error in the 3rd bullet point.

Anima mastery
At 17th level, your mastery over your vestiges allows you to shift some of your power onto them. When casting a spell that requires concentration, you may force a vestige which you have made a good pact with to maintain concentration of the spell for you, allowing you to concentrate on an additional spell. Doing so cuts you off from that vestige's powers until you take a short or long rest, or until the concentration ends, whichever is longer.
A vestige may only concentrate on a spell at least one level lower than it is. Once you use this ability, you must take a long rest before you can do so again.

Whoa, this is crazy powerful. Concentrating on two spells at a time is borderline game-breaking, especially since it doesn't seem like your vestige will lose concentration for any reason. It's really tempting to look at the concentration mechanic as something that can be played with, but there's just too many cases where it causes balance problems for the entire spell system.

I wouldn't fix this feature; I'd scrap it.

Scarce

2015-09-23, 01:44 PM

Updates:

@Ipos: Updated with less damage, and Ipos's Influence is once per long. I think it's ready for Alpha.

@Dahlver-Nar: Natural Armor changed with Zahn's suggestion. I've capped the damage Share Harm does.

I'm gonna be taking a close look at Amon next (perhaps I'll do something with Retribution in Dahlver-nar.)

Submortimer

2015-09-23, 02:46 PM

This one seems really good. I really like how few spell slots it gets. That's great at making the Awakened Mind feel like a warlock, and keeps the power in check.

Spells Known: I would maybe even reduce the spells known. I'm also not a fan of learning new spells when you bind a vestige. That's a lot of freedom you're giving the caster. Additionally, by granting access to bard spells, you've given the binder healing. I think that's a huge mistake for a class that's supposed to be arcane.

I didn't think about that. I'll pull bard from the available list.

Anima Casting: I would simplify this a little:

At 3rd level, you learn to exploit your bound vestiges for magical power. As a bonus action, you may convert a vestige you currently have bound into a single spell slot of the same level. Once you have done so, you lose access to that vestige's powers until you take a long rest, and you cannot renegotiate your pact with it.
I don't know about the Wild Magic stuff, but I'm not super against it either.

I'll make that change. I was a little iffy on granting that many bonus spell slots anyways. The wild magic thing allows the AM to use his higher level vestiges with this ability, but flirt with some danger too.

Whoa, this is crazy powerful. Concentrating on two spells at a time is borderline game-breaking, especially since it doesn't seem like your vestige will lose concentration for any reason. It's really tempting to look at the concentration mechanic as something that can be played with, but there's just too many cases where it causes balance problems for the entire spell system.

I'll say this: between the small number of spells known, the low number of slots, and the low level of available spells known (no higher than 4th) this certainly shouldn't break the game.

Also, consider what you give up: A 17th level AM could use this to concentrate on Stoneskin, but hed have to give up something as powerful as Tenebrous or Andras to get it, and that's not an even power trade: the vestige wins hands down.

That being said, I'm up for suggestions for a level 17 power that feels appropriate

Scarce

2015-09-23, 09:04 PM

Alright, I'm going to go through Amon, which is still more powerful than the other vestiges, and make suggestions on how these features might work better. This class doesn't require a rewrite, a I thought Dahlver-nar did, but I want to make things more condensed.

ANCIENT RIVALRY
You have advantage on all ability check and attack roll contests made against another binder. When you reach 13th level, the benefits of this ability also apply to contest rolls made against Aberrations, Celestials, Fey, Fiends or undead, as well as mortals possessed by these creatures or have ever formed a pact with them.

Alright, I really like this as a ribbon ability, but I think that the mechanics can be simplified and worded a little better:

While bound to Amon, you have advantage on all attack rolls against creatures with the Pact Magic or Soul Binding features. At 13th level, you also have advantage on attacks against Aberrations, Celestials, Fey, Fiends, and Undead, and creatures charmed by them.

BREATHE FIRE
When you breathe, flames churn within your lungs, eager to be let loose upon your foes. You can use your action to exhale a 15-foot cone of fire from your mouth, any creature caught within the fire takes 1d6 fire damage or takes half as much if it makes a successful Dexterity saving throw. alternatively, you can hold your breath for up to 2 rounds, each round you hold your fiery breath increases the damage of this feature (as noted on the table below)(in which case you exhale the fiery breathe on your 3rd round as an action) holding your breathe in this way requires concentration. Your breath also ignites any flammable objects that are not being worn or carried. Trying to hold your fiery breath for longer than 2 rounds results in a smokey cough fit, ending your effect and dealing you 1d8 points of fire damage. Fire resistance and immunity does not affect fire damage you inflict upon yourself by holding your breath longer than 2 rounds.
Starting at 6th level, and again at 14th level, the damage you inflict with Breathe Fire (as well as the damage increase from holding your breathe) increases as (as indicated on the table below:
DAMAGE - BREATHE FIRE

Level\Time holding breath
1 action
1 round
2 rounds

1st
1d6
1d6+1d8
1d6+3d8

6th
2d6
2d6+2d8
2d6+5d8

14th
4d6
4d6+3d8
4d6+9d8

Again, love this feature. Holding your breath for more damage is a really interesting feature, and there's no way I want to change that. However, I want to propose the following simplification to the feature (I changed the range to 10 feet, since cantrips rarely effect an area at all):

Breathe Fire
You can as an action breathe fire upon your foes. Each creature within a 10-foot cone must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 1d6 fire damage, or half as much on a successful one.

Alternatively, you can hold your fiery breath as an action for up to 1 round, maintaining concentration on it as you would a spell. You can release it as an action on your following turn, rolling twice the normal number of damage dice.

The spell’s damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 6th level (2d6) and 14th level (3d6).

CALL OF GRIM VALOR
As an action, Amon let's you sound the horns on your head, making for an eerie battle cry. Any enemies within 30 must succeed on a wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1d4 rounds, and your melee weapon attacks against frightened creatures deal an additional 1d6 damage for the duration. Once you have used this feature, you can not use it again until you have completed a short or long rest. You must bear Amon's sign to use this feature.

So I have a problem with this feature conceptually. We use animal horns as musical horns by blowing through the narrow end of the horn, which reverberates and exits through the larger end. Even if an animal has some sort of sinuses that let it expel air through its horns, it would be blowing through the wrong end, since the larger end of the horn is always affixed to the skull.

Mechanically, I also think it might be too powerful. Don't underestimate how powerful the frightened condition is: we're talking about disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks for an entire round and the creature can't even walk closer to you in that time. It's a really powerful debuff, which is why the 1st level wrathful smite deals an additional 1d6 damage and frightens only 1 creature, which also gets a save at the end of each of its turn to end the effect early. Additionally, while the range is shorter, the area of effect is actually larger than the fear spell.

RETRIBUTION
Amon is a spiteful vestige who harms those who attack you, Whenever you are hit and dealt damage from an attack by a creature you can see that is within your reach, you can use your reaction to force the attacking creature to take 1d4+1 damage per 2 dice of damage you received from that attack (maximum 10d4+10). The type of damage you deal is the same type as the damage that triggered this feature (if there are multiple types of damage, you decide which of those types to use).

We could rewrite this feature entirely, but I don't know if it serves the concept of the class very well. I would cut either this feature or Call of Grim Valor, and rewrite the one that remains. Alternatively, you could cut both of the features and replace them with the following feature:

Impervious Flames
When you cast a spell of 1st level or higher which deals fire damage and you roll a 1 on a damage die, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1.

Submortimer

2015-09-23, 11:06 PM

We could rewrite this feature entirely, but I don't know if it serves the concept of the class very well. I would cut either this feature or Call of Grim Valor, and rewrite the one that remains.

I'm not sure why retribution isnt 1/short rest hellish rebuke...

Scarce

2015-09-23, 11:37 PM

I'm not sure why retribution isnt 1/short rest hellish rebuke...
That's a lot better! My recommendation for Amon to make Retribution = once per short rest hellish rebuke and to trade Call of Grim Valor for Impervious Flames (which is basically a ribbon ability at lower levels but is awesome for a fireball at higher levels, giving this vestige some value if you return to it later on at higher levels.)

Submortimer

2015-09-24, 09:45 AM

Had two ideas for a different 17th level Awakened Mind feature:

Anima Mastery
At 17th level, you've learned to squeeze the most magical power out of even the weakest vestiges. You may sacrifice a bound vestige of 5th level or higher to restore all of your pact magic spell slots. Doing so causes you to lose the abilities of that vestige, and you cannot renegotiate that vestige's pact until you take a long rest.
Once you use this ability, you must take a long rest before doing so again.

Anima Mastery
At 17th level, you can use your vestige's bonds as a conduit to the Far Plane, gaining powerful insights at a possibly deadly cost. You may sacrifice vestige you have bound: doing so allows you to cast any warlock or sorcerer spell of the same level as the vestige you sacrificed. Sacrificing a vestige causes you to lose the abilities of that vestige, and you cannot renegotiate that pact until you take a long rest.
You may use this ability to cast spells of a higher level than your pact magic would allow. When using this ability to cast a spell of 5th level or higher, you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 11 + the spell level: failure causes you to take 1d10 points of unavoidable and irreducible psychic damage + 1d10 per level of the spell cast.
Once you use this ability, you must take a long rest before you can do so again.

Submortimer

2015-09-24, 04:56 PM

That's a lot better! My recommendation for Amon to make Retribution = once per short rest hellish rebuke and to trade Call of Grim Valor for Impervious Flames (which is basically a ribbon ability at lower levels but is awesome for a fireball at higher levels, giving this vestige some value if you return to it later on at higher levels.)

Recommendation: Make Impervious Flames mechanically equal to the feat Elemental Focus, but only for fire: Re-roll 1s and 2s on fire damage, ignore fire resistance (but not fire immunity). Granting the equivalent of a feat is something we've done (or, at least, I'VE done) with other vestiges.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-25, 01:18 AM

Alright, I really like this as a ribbon ability, but I think that the mechanics can be simplified and worded a little better:

While bound to Amon, you have advantage on all attack rolls against creatures with the Pact Magic or Soul Binding features. At 13th level, you also have advantage on attacks against Aberrations, Celestials, Fey, Fiends, and Undead, and creatures charmed or possessed by them.

charmed =/= possessed. I'd like to cover the base of ghost's possession as well.

Again, love this feature. Holding your breath for more damage is a really interesting feature, and there's no way I want to change that. However, I want to propose the following simplification to the feature (I changed the range to 10 feet, since cantrips rarely effect an area at all):

Breathe Fire
You can as an action breathe fire upon your foes. Each creature within a 10-foot cone must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 1d6 fire damage, or half as much on a successful one.

Alternatively, you can hold your fiery breath as an action for up to 1 round, maintaining concentration on it as you would a spell. You can release it as an action on your following turn, rolling twice the normal number of damage dice.

The spell’s damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 6th level (2d6) and 14th level (3d6).
You didn't tell me, Scarce: do you really think the damage of the fire breath is an issue? I built the numbers in mind to be a slightly more tempting option than spending a cantrip each turn. This variant option does not do that for me. I have no problem with removing the second turn, but even with 1 round, I think a player needs better incentive to waste his action to hold his breath, but I don't see that here.

So I have a problem with this feature conceptually. We use animal horns as musical horns by blowing through the narrow end of the horn, which reverberates and exits through the larger end. Even if an animal has some sort of sinuses that let it expel air through its horns, it would be blowing through the wrong end, since the larger end of the horn is always affixed to the skull.

Mechanically, I also think it might be too powerful. Don't underestimate how powerful the frightened condition is: we're talking about disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks for an entire round and the creature can't even walk closer to you in that time. It's a really powerful debuff, which is why the 1st level wrathful smite deals an additional 1d6 damage and frightens only 1 creature, which also gets a save at the end of each of its turn to end the effect early. Additionally, while the range is shorter, the area of effect is actually larger than the fear spell.for some reason I always pictured my binder snapping a horn off and blowing. But your points are fair. Originally this class had 3 features. Surely you agree that we need to be more flexible and creative than that so keep him on par with the others. That might not always mean I'll be 100% true to the concept. That's not as big of a priority than to put an attractive and properly functioning part into the machine. Concepts are flexible, the stories and themes of these vestiges are not necessarily what they were in Goetic sources. This project is ours, we make of these vestiges what appeals to us. That's why we've been doing such a great job until now.

We could rewrite this feature entirely, but I don't know if it serves the concept of the class very well. I would cut either this feature or Call of Grim Valor, and rewrite the one that remains. Alternatively, you could cut both of the features and replace them with the following feature: see above about conceptually fitting. We can make it conceptually fit, that's not the issue. If you think you can design it better, help yourself.

Impervious Flames
When you cast a spell of 1st level or higher which deals fire damage and you roll a 1 on a damage die, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1.

Recommendation: Make Impervious Flames mechanically equal to the feat Elemental Focus, but only for fire: Re-roll 1s and 2s on fire damage, ignore fire resistance (but not fire immunity). Granting the equivalent of a feat is something we've done (or, at least, I'VE done) with other vestiges.
As I've sayed before, feats are an optional mechanic in the system in this edition. It's against our interests to copy paste optional rules that a particular DM might try to avoid for any reason. If we must, I'm fine with rerolling 1s and 2s, let's keep it at that. He's still a 1st level vestige, too.

Submortimer

2015-09-25, 06:29 AM

As I've sayed before, feats are an optional mechanic in the system in this edition. It's against our interests to copy paste optional rules that a particular DM might try to avoid for any reason. If we must, I'm fine with rerolling 1s and 2s, let's keep it at that. He's still a 1st level vestige, too.

Again, not saying GIVE them the feat, use similar rules; In any case, there's only two
Damage re-rolling abilities that I can think of (elemental focus and GWF), and both reroll 1s and 2s, so we should stick with that at least.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-25, 07:29 AM

Again, not saying GIVE them the feat, use similar rules; In any case, there's only two
Damage re-rolling abilities that I can think of (elemental focus and GWF), and both reroll 1s and 2s, so we should stick with that at least.

I just checked. Elemental Adept lets you treat all 1s on damage as 2, no rerolling involved. Throw in ignoring fire resistance and you got a first level vestige feature that is unquestionably better than a feat at what that feat does. Allowing something like this would mean turning a blind eye to a flaw in design.

The_Doctor

2015-09-25, 08:36 AM

Submortimer

2015-09-25, 08:58 AM

I just checked. Elemental Adept lets you treat all 1s on damage as 2, no rerolling involved. Throw in ignoring fire resistance and you got a first level vestige feature that is unquestionably better than a feat at what that feat does. Allowing something like this would mean turning a blind eye to a flaw in design.

Ahhh...I was misremembering. I haven't had access to my books for a couple days.

In that case, Scarce's idea is fine.

Submortimer

2015-09-25, 09:11 AM

5th level or higher is "the weakest" of vestiges?

No, but I find it hard to justify burning a 1st level vestige to get back 3 4th level spell slots.

This is interesting. You would have to weigh the benefits of the vestige/vs the spell. I like this one better than the above.

I do too, as it gives more flexibility and adds to the "Dangerous power" feel of the class as a whole.

The_Doctor

2015-09-25, 10:15 AM

No, I get that, but you might want to reword it a bit.

"You have learned to squeeze every drop of power from vestiges" or something similar.

Scarce

2015-09-25, 03:45 PM

You didn't tell me, Scarce: do you really think the damage of the fire breath is an issue? I built the numbers in mind to be a slightly more tempting option than spending a cantrip each turn. This variant option does not do that for me. I have no problem with removing the second turn, but even with 1 round, I think a player needs better incentive to waste his action to hold his breath, but I don't see that here.

The incentive to use this feature is that you can hit so many creatures with it at one time, and that you're guaranteed to do damage. Other cantrips almost exclusively can target 1 creature at a time and (if they offer a save) save for nothing. There's a few exceptions to the 1 target rule: acid splash can hit 2 adjacent targets, edritch blast can hit up to 4 at high levels, and gust can hit targets within 5 feet of you, but none of the captrips come close to an AoE that deals a 15-foot cone with a save for half. If want Amon to be on the level of all the other 1st level vestiges, my version addresses the power gap, while maintaining the save for half and cone damage of the ability.

My version simplified holding your breath because it benefits from being simple. The incentive to hold your breath should be a tactical one that rewards planning 1 move in advance. IE, target is too far away to make it in one round, therefore hold breath and deal 2 rounds of damage when I get there; or, target is unawares on the other side of a door, therefore hold breath and ambush for double the damage.

Surely you agree that we need to be more flexible and creative than that so keep him on par with the others.

I don't agree here. I think Amon is currently balanced to be more powerful than the others. In fact, I can list why:

His Breathe Fire ability is more powerful than any cantrip, as I described above.
His horns deal damage higher than any other vestige natural attack that I know of, which also grants you free advantage for very minimal cost
He gets an AOE debuff which cripples all enemies around for an average of 2.5 rounds if they fail a save and deals extra damage against them in melee
Retribution basically copies what Dahlver-nar gets, providing a powerful disincentive for anyone attacking him, especially since he deals this damage without a save or roll to hit.

My solutions to this were as follows: tone down the Breathe Fire effect, remove the AOE debuff entirely (it detracts from the mechanical focus that Amon has) in favor of something that comes into play primarily at higher levels, which keeps him an attractive choice later on, and redesign Retribution to fit better with a currently existing spell (hellish rebuke.)

In fact, another recommendation is to replace the advantage on the horns altogether or replace them with a small damage increase following a 10-foot line movement. Advantage on attacks isn't something that should be thrown out so easily.

Scarce

2015-09-25, 03:56 PM

Anima Mastery
At 17th level, you've learned to squeeze the most magical power out of even the weakest vestiges. You may sacrifice a bound vestige of 5th level or higher to restore all of your pact magic spell slots. Doing so causes you to lose the abilities of that vestige, and you cannot renegotiate that vestige's pact until you take a long rest.
Once you use this ability, you must take a long rest before doing so again.

I like this feature a lot. It's simple. It has a great trade cost associated with it. This gets my vote.

Anima Mastery
At 17th level, you can use your vestige's bonds as a conduit to the Far Plane, gaining powerful insights at a possibly deadly cost. You may sacrifice vestige you have bound: doing so allows you to cast any warlock or sorcerer spell of the same level as the vestige you sacrificed. Sacrificing a vestige causes you to lose the abilities of that vestige, and you cannot renegotiate that pact until you take a long rest.
You may use this ability to cast spells of a higher level than your pact magic would allow. When using this ability to cast a spell of 5th level or higher, you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 11 + the spell level: failure causes you to take 1d10 points of unavoidable and irreducible psychic damage + 1d10 per level of the spell cast.
Once you use this ability, you must take a long rest before you can do so again.
I don't mind this one either. It grants less, but more powerful spellcasting from the trade. The only thing I would probably add here is a line which states you don't need to know a spell in order to cast it with this feature. You imply this, but I think it needs to be stated outright to avoid questions.

In my opinion, both of these features are far better than the previous Anima Mastery (well done!) The first of the two tickles my fancy a little more (it's more blasty than high sorcery, and it's simple; a rather young player could understand it without issue), but this is a personal taste thing: use the first feature if you like the idea of an Anima Mage running out of spells and banishing a vestige to replinish them and keep blasting (which strikes me as very warlock-y), or use the second one if you can imagine an Anima Mage casting spells of the highest level, like Wish and True Polymorph. I'm cool with both.

Submortimer

2015-09-25, 04:40 PM

I like this feature a lot. It's simple. It has a great trade cost associated with it. This gets my vote.

I don't mind this one either. It grants less, but more powerful spellcasting from the trade. The only thing I would probably add here is a line which states you don't need to know a spell in order to cast it with this feature. You imply this, but I think it needs to be stated outright to avoid questions.

In my opinion, both of these features are far better than the previous Anima Mastery (well done!) The first of the two tickles my fancy a little more (it's more blasty than high sorcery, and it's simple; a rather young player could understand it without issue), but this is a personal taste thing: use the first feature if you like the idea of an Anima Mage running out of spells and banishing a vestige to replinish them and keep blasting (which strikes me as very warlock-y), or use the second one if you can imagine an Anima Mage casting spells of the highest level, like Wish and True Polymorph. I'm cool with both.

Dang it, I was expecting at least some pushback on either choice! Now I have too many good options! :-P

My personal pick is the second. I like the idea of an Awakened Mind forcing Orthos to go pluck the knowledge of, say, meteor swarm out of the ether, then provide the requisite magical fuel to cast it. And orthos, in turn, fries his brain for his arrogance.

Submortimer

2015-09-25, 04:54 PM

The incentive to use this feature is that you can hit so many creatures with it at one time, and that you're guaranteed to do damage. Other cantrips almost exclusively can target 1 creature at a time and (if they offer a save) save for nothing.

I came up against this exact thing when building my Witcher class and dealing with Igni: having a continuously spammable aoe cone effect, even if it's fire, trivializes most low level encounters if it does too much damage. I think I had to tone the damage back to 1d10, and even then it was borderline for a cantrip.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-26, 10:22 AM

The incentive to use this feature is that you can hit so many creatures with it at one time, and that you're guaranteed to do damage. Other cantrips almost exclusively can target 1 creature at a time and (if they offer a save) save for nothing. There's a few exceptions to the 1 target rule: acid splash can hit 2 adjacent targets, edritch blast can hit up to 4 at high levels, and gust can hit targets within 5 feet of you, but none of the captrips come close to an AoE that deals a 15-foot cone with a save for half. If want Amon to be on the level of all the other 1st level vestiges, my version addresses the power gap, while maintaining the save for half and cone damage of the ability.

My version simplified holding your breath because it benefits from being simple. The incentive to hold your breath should be a tactical one that rewards planning 1 move in advance. IE, target is too far away to make it in one round, therefore hold breath and deal 2 rounds of damage when I get there; or, target is unawares on the other side of a door, therefore hold breath and ambush for double the damage. Fair points. I would like to keep the clause about losing the breath for holding it for more than one round. if not risking self-damage, I don't want the breath to be something you can simlpy hold until most convenient. I aim for timing to also be important when it comes to holding your breath.

I don't agree here. I think Amon is currently balanced to be more powerful than the others. In fact, I can list why:

His Breathe Fire ability is more powerful than any cantrip, as I described above.
His horns deal damage higher than any other vestige natural attack that I know of, which also grants you free advantage for very minimal cost
He gets an AOE debuff which cripples all enemies around for an average of 2.5 rounds if they fail a save and deals extra damage against them in melee
Retribution basically copies what Dahlver-nar gets, providing a powerful disincentive for anyone attacking him, especially since he deals this damage without a save or roll to hit.

My solutions to this were as follows: tone down the Breathe Fire effect, remove the AOE debuff entirely (it detracts from the mechanical focus that Amon has) in favor of something that comes into play primarily at higher levels, which keeps him an attractive choice later on, and redesign Retribution to fit better with a currently existing spell (hellish rebuke.) How would you suggest I handle the horns between the vestige and the subclass? the goal is for them to compliment each other, that's more important to me. same goes for Ipos's claws and the other one's Bite. I would rather they harmonize with each other, how do you think I could do it from the subclass perspective?
I'll trust you on removing HoV.
If we play with Hellish Rebuke in the end (which I won't lie is a rather convenient idea) I'd like a binder to have more than one use at a later level.

In fact, another recommendation is to replace the advantage on the horns altogether or replace them with a small damage increase following a 10-foot line movement. Advantage on attacks isn't something that should be thrown out so easily.We could do that. How much damage do you think is a fair increase? If a W/TF Binder took Amon, how do you think these features ought to compliment each other?

Prince Zahn

2015-09-26, 10:46 AM

I complied a to-do list of things I said I would do but haven't yet. as of right now they are sorted in no particular order and I doubt will be finished in order, just browsed a to-do list for myself, and I'll put it here so I can see just how much I can do before I have to get back to work.

PRINCE ZAHN'S VACAY TO-DO LIST:

Line of Pact magic/occult Equipment and gear(WIP)
Finish discussion on the Xanathar
Review Awakened/Anima Mage subclass
Fix Leraje-II(working on it)
Fix Warped Subclass
Fix Unfettered Subclass
Pick up Sacred Seal subclass discussion where it was left off
Fix Vestige Codex for better convenience (WIP)
Pact Magic themed Trinkets (You know, I really won't leave this alone until I make something out of it)
SAMmazing Vestige(On Hold)
Review Dantalion

" " Chupoclops

" " New Primus

" " Balam
Decide once and for all on subclass names

Did I miss anything?:smallsmile:

I also want to thank Everyone for all of your input and dedication, and also thank Scarce for his controlled playtesting, which really gets things moving a LOT faster. This project would not get nearly as far as it did if it weren't for you guys.
(Do not be alarmed, there are no bad news at the end of this message)

Scarce

2015-09-26, 05:25 PM

Some thoughts on how to handle the deformity vestiges and Warped Fate: replace the current Unnatural Attack with this
Unnatural Attack
The corruption of vestiges has permanently influenced your form. The exact nature of this disfigurement is up to you, but it is universally dangerous, and can be used with an unarmed strike as a natural weapon to deal 1d4 bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage.

Additionally, when you use the Attack action on your turn to make an unarmed strike, you can use a bonus action to make an unarmed strike with each of your natural weapons. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of a bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
and add a new Pact Augmentation (removing Warped Fate from the Binder's Blade)
Hideous Strength
Prerequisite: Warped Flesh, 7th level
When you use an Unnatural Attack to make additional unarmed strikes, you can add your ability score modifiers to damage.

With this kind of system, the Warped Fate is still melee focused, but works on a monk-like smack-them-a-thousand-times scheme (with the right vestiges), while the Sacred Seal can deal more damage on a fewer number of hits.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-26, 05:35 PM

Some thoughts on how to handle the deformity vestiges and Warped Fate: replace the current Unnatural Attack with this
Unnatural Attack
The corruption of vestiges has permanently influenced your form. The exact nature of this disfigurement is up to you, but it is universally dangerous, and can be used with an unarmed strike as a natural weapon to deal 1d4 bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage.

Additionally, when you use the Attack action on your turn to make an unarmed strike, you can use a bonus action to make an unarmed strike with each of your natural weapons. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of a bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.

With this kind of system, the Warped Fate is still melee focused, but works on a monk-like smack-them-a-thousand-times scheme (with the right vestiges), while the Sacred Seal can deal more damage on a fewer number of hits.Can you build on this to make a 3-option feature to fit the rest of the subclass? The WF shares a really cool model for subclasses with the Hunter Ranger and Totem Barbarian, and I'd like to keep it that way.

If these are the numbers you feel are needed, I trust you. But I don't get as much of the feel I'm going for with this, as it feels too simplified I'm it's catch-all approach, to the point of lackluster.

Submortimer

2015-09-26, 06:47 PM

* Snip *

Here's my recommendation for unnatural attack:

Through your connection to the vestiges and the constant physical mutation your body undergoes, you have gained a dangerous, yet beneficial, deformity. You gain a natural weapon, chosen from the following:
• Claws: You gain two sets of long, sharp claws. These may be actual nails, cat like retractable claws, bonespurs jutting out of your forearm, or some other form. Your claws deal 1d4 points of slashing damage each, and you may attack with both of them when you use the attack action. If you hit one creature with both claws during the same turn, you may automatically attempt to grapple that creature.
Should you bind Ipos or any other vestige that grants a claw attack, the damage for your claws increases to 1d6, become magical, and you may substitute these claws for the vestige's claws.
• Bite: You grow either an overly large set of fangs or your mouth distends and is filled with rows of razor sharp teeth. You gain a bite attack that deals 1d6 slashing damage. When you hit a creature with your bite attack, you may use your bonus action to attempt to knock them prone.
Should you bind Dalhlver-Nar or any vestige that grants a bite attack, your bite instead deals 1d8 damage, become magical, and you may substitute thsee teeth for the vestige's teeth.
• Horns: You grow a large pair of horns on your head, either twisted, like a ram's or pointed, like a bull's, though beyond that they may take any shape or color possible. You gain a ram attack, which deals 1d6 damage (either piercing or bludgeoning, your choice), and when you hit a creature you may push them back 10 feet in a straight line away from you.
Should you bind Amon or any vestige that grants a horn attack, your horns instead deal 1d8 damage, become magical, and you may substitute these horns foe your vestige's horns.

Then stick with Scarce's ideas for the augment.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-26, 07:36 PM

Here's my recommendation for unnatural attack:

*snip*

Then stick with Scarce's ideas for the augment.
The augment might need to be reworded, as only claws would benefit from this.
Otherwise, this feels like step In the right direction, given that it stays true to what I wanted from the feature in the first place.

Claws: You gain two sets of long, sharp claws. These may be actual nails, cat like retractable claws, bonespurs jutting out of your forearm, or some other form. Your claws deal 1d4 points of slashing damage each, and you can attack with both of them when you use the attack action. If you hit one creature with both claws during the same turn, you can automatically attempt to grapple that creature.
Should you bind Ipos or any other vestige that grants a claw attack, the damage for your claws increases to 1d6, become magical, and you can substitute these claws for the vestige's claws. do Ipos's claws still count as Unarmed Strikes? How does this interact between Ronove-Ipos-T/W Fate? Do we even want them to mix?
I also think the additional attack with these flaws should be a Bonus Action, I feel rather intimidated at the prospect of letting this be part of the attack action. How about this:
"when you use the attack action to make a claw attack, you can use your bonus action to attempt to grapple a creature or make an additional claw attack with your other hand."

Bite: You grow either an overly large set of fangs or your mouth distends and is filled with rows of razor sharp teeth. You gain a bite attack that deals 1d6 slashing damage. When you hit a creature with your bite attack, you may use your bonus action to attempt to knock them prone.
Should you bind Dahlver-Nar or any vestige that grants a bite attack, your bite instead deals 1d8 damage, become magical, and you may substitute thsee teeth for the vestige's teeth. this seems fine and dandy to me at a glance. Scarce might have more input regarding if we should put Dahlver-Nar into the mix.

Horns: You grow a large pair of horns on your head, either twisted, like a ram's or pointed, like a bull's, though beyond that they may take any shape or color possible. You gain a ram attack, which deals 1d6 damage (either piercing or bludgeoning, your choice), and when you hit a creature you may push them back 10 feet in a straight line away from you.
Should you bind Amon or any vestige that grants a horn attack, your horns instead deal 1d8 damage, become magical, and you may substitute these horns foe your vestige's horns. To keep with the format you've been working with, and to allow the enemy a fair chance to resist ring outs, I suggest recording the last part of the first paragraph as "when you successfully hit a creature with your ram attack, you can use your bonus action to push the target back up to 10 feat, as per the rules of shoving a creature."

Overall, this does seem a little more balanced than what I tried to do. It is also simpler, but still gives a feel like the deformity matters. A clause should also be added that once you have selected one of these, it can not be changed. Not that it wouldn't be cool if you could change it as you pleased, it Just feels like this is how this subclass format works - choose one from a few options, and keep that choice.

Scarce

2015-09-27, 12:17 AM

Alright, there's a lot going on with the natural attack route and we're coming dangerously close to making the system as convoluted as 3.5 did. I've been thinking about a few general concepts:

All vestige natural attacks should be unarmed strikes.
I've been making a point to keep referring to the natural weapons we give through vestiges as a type of unarmed strike. Ipos's Claws? Unarmed Strikes. I've been using this convention for two reasons: the first is that more broad effects, like those offered by the monk class, should augment the use of natural attacks, and the second is so that we have a simple descriptor that we can use to refer to them.

Natural attacks at lower levels should be comparable in damage to a monk's unarmed strike, not a longsword attack. I think damage should be 1d6 for an attack which offers no additional effect, or 1d4 for one that does. That being said, I've been toying with Amon's horns, and here's what I came up with:

Horns
The horns granted to you by Amon are strong and sturdy. You can attack a creature with these horns using with an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a hit. Additionally, if you move in a straight line for 10 feet immediately before attacking creature with your horns, that creature must make a Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.
Submortimer said something about Dahlver-Nar having a bite attack? That's an awesome idea! Let me know if you think I should just include it or trade it with something else.
Bite
While bound to Dahlver-Nar, your jaw grows a hideous set of teeth, mismatched and seemingly originating from dozens of different predators. You can bite a creature using with an unarmed strike, dealing 1d6 piercing damage on a hit.
We need to have clear design rules in mind on what the individual vestiges should grant, and what the subclass should grant. Basically, the three categories should be straight damage increase, additional attacks, and special benefits, like pushing opponents or grappling them. We should not have the horns granted by Amon give some sort of charging benefit, and the horns granted by the Warped Fate to give some push-back benefit. It's too much going on. Can I use both? If not, which one do I use? When do I choose which effect to use? What does it mean substitute?

I'm reasonably certain I could figure out the answers to these questions, but I shouldn't have to ask them in the first place. In my opinion, Warped Fate should offer natural attacks of its own which are unique and offer benefits which reward using as many natural attacks from as many sources as possible, to make the play-style markedly different from the Sacred Seal binders.

Unnatural Attack
The corruption of vestiges has permanently influenced your form, granting you a dangerous, yet beneficial, deformity. You gain a natural weapon, chosen from the following:

Tentacles. You grow a pair of whipping tendrils. You can attack a creature with these tentacles using an unarmed strike, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage on a hit.
Tail. You grow a muscular, prehensile tail. You can attack a creature with your tail using an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a hit. Additionally, your tail can perform very simple actions, such as opening a door or retrieving an arrow from a quiver, though it may not perform a weapon attack or hold a weapon.
Spines. You grow a series of bony, pointed spines. You can attack a creature with your spines using an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 piercing damage on a hit. Additionally, when you end your turn grappling a creature, you deal 1d4 piercing damage to that creature.

Additionally, when you use the Attack action on your turn to make an unarmed strike, you can use a bonus action to make an unarmed strike with each of your other natural weapons. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of a bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-27, 06:04 AM

Alright, there's a lot going on with the natural attack route and we're coming dangerously close to making the system as convoluted as 3.5 did. I've been thinking about a few general concepts: Let's not exaggerate, please, I agree that natural attacks will not be a separate mechanic in this edition. It's a pain to wrap one's head around it.

All vestige natural attacks should be unarmed strikes. I agree with this statement. Though if memory serves you originally advised me against labeling it as an unarmed strike to avoid the potential monk combos.

I've been making a point to keep referring to the natural weapons we give through vestiges as a type of unarmed strike. Ipos's Claws? Unarmed Strikes. I've been using this convention for two reasons: the first is that more broad effects, like those offered by the monk class, should augment the use of natural attacks, and the second is so that we have a simple descriptor that we can use to refer to them.I agree with this especially because is simpler this way.

Natural attacks at lower levels should be comparable in damage to a monk's unarmed strike, not a longsword attack. I think damage should be 1d6 for an attack which offers no additional effect, or 1d4 for one that does. We can try this.

That being said, I've been toying with Amon's horns, and here's what I came up with:

Horns
The horns granted to you by Amon are strong and sturdy. You can attack a creature with these horns using with an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a hit. Additionally, if you move in a straight line for 10 feet immediately before attacking creature with your horns, that creature must make a Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. sounds fair. Do you think 1d4 will suffice for the Binder? It is also important to make sure he could do adequate damage with these if he builds to it, otherwise all of this is a pointless endeavor.

Submortimer said something about Dahlver-Nar having a bite attack? That's an awesome idea! Let me know if you think I should just include it or trade it with something else.at the same time, it is also conceptually ironic. The only place Dahlver-Nar has no teeth is in his mouth.:smallconfused:

Bite
While bound to Dahlver-Nar, your jaw grows a hideous set of teeth, mismatched and seemingly originating from dozens of different predators. You can bite a creature using with an unarmed strike, dealing 1d6 piercing damage on a hit. see my thoughts just above. Chupoclops also has a bite, if memory serves. (Or somebody else does, I don't entirely recall) things like this ought to build on each other as well.

We need to have clear design rules in mind on what the individual vestiges should grant, and what the subclass should grant. Basically, the three categories should be straight damage increase, additional attacks, and special benefits, like pushing opponents or grappling them. We should not have the horns granted by Amon give some sort of charging benefit, and the horns granted by the Warped Fate to give some push-back benefit. It's too much going on. Can I use both? If not, which one do I use? When do I choose which effect to use? What does it mean substitute? If you feel it needs to be simplified, I'll trust you. But not to a degree that of a catch all mechanic, as before. I was fine with indiscernible anatomy, but more than one such catch-all is too much for the WF/T.

I'm reasonably certain I could figure out the answers to these questions, but I shouldn't have to ask them in the first place. I agree with you, for the most part, the exception being things that could be left for a DM to interpret. 5e does that too.

In my opinion, Warped Fate should offer natural attacks of its own which are unique and offer benefits which reward using as many natural attacks from as many sources as possible, to make the play-style markedly different from the Sacred Seal binders. I'd be up for this:smallsmile: how do you propose the having more sources of mutations will benefit him at higher levels? Something like a multiattack?

Unnatural Attack
The corruption of vestiges has permanently influenced your form, granting you a dangerous, yet beneficial, deformity. You gain a natural weapon, chosen from the following:

Tentacles. You grow a pair of whipping tendrils. You can attack a creature with these tentacles using an unarmed strike, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage on a hit.
Tail. You grow a muscular, prehensile tail. You can attack a creature with your tail using an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a hit. Additionally, your tail can perform very simple actions, such as opening a door or retrieving an arrow from a quiver, though it may not perform an attack or hold a weapon.
Spines. You grow a series of bony, pointed spines. You can attack a creature with your spines using an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 piercing damage on a hit. Additionally, when you end your turn grappling a creature, you deal 1d4 piercing damage to that creature.

Additionally, when you use the Attack action on your turn to make an unarmed strike, you can use a bonus action to make an unarmed strike with each of your other natural weapons. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of a bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
I called the feature an unnatural weapon as a play on words at the expense of the older edition(s). The terms "Natural Weapon" and "natural attack" are technically non-existent in 5e.
The tail is a little confusing in it's wording, the first two lines say you can use it as an attack, the last sentence says you can't use it to attack. Mild rephrasing might be a good idea to understand what this tail can/can't do.
Submortimer did point out on one occasion that subclasses traditionally traditionally two features at entry level. Though one is typically a ribbon or similarly small benefit. Any suggestions?
Though I never liked tentacles on my humanoids, these are overall very great options, and good idea on Independent mutations. Damage control would need some testing to prove your hypothesis, but that's what you are already doing. I hope you are right about this.:smallsmile:

I'll make adjustments to the WF soon.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-27, 08:19 AM

Here's a thought for the KoSS: you choose one vestige to devote to, but you can't don't change it. There are no limits on which vestige you devote to, even if you can't summon him yet. but you have to stick with that decision.
Instead of a guaranteed good pact with your patron, you would get to choose your preferred influence the vestige will have on you when you get a bad pact.
I'm not sure that virtually guaranteeing a 20 or more on your attack rolls is ethical to the game, even at 17th level.

On vestige names: I still feel most comfortable with the term "Fates" for reasons mentioned earlier, so we'll stay with those unless someone adds a new word to our vocabulary that fits all the subclasses better.
after listening to all the sides of this debate, here are the names I've been thinking we could use for the agreed upon subclasses:

Occult Fate (OF) - The binder devotes himself to mastering the ways of the Occult and perfecting the binding process, accomplished OF binders often earn the title "scholar".
UnfetteredReleased Fate (RF) - A binder who empathises strongly enough with vestiges or seeks out their realm gradually liberates his soul from existence, and might join the vestiges one day in the void.
Sacred Seal Fate (SSF/SF) - Alternatively "Sealed Fate". The binder embraces his calling as an envoy of a particular Vestige, and strives to achieve knighthood.
Warped Twisted Fate (TF) - a binder achieves great raw power by relinquishing any physical pretense of normality, inevitably becoming a monster in pursuit of his art.
AwakenedAnimusMaligned Fate or Eldritch Fate or Ill Fate - (MF/EF/IF) not so much describing what becomes of the Binder, but rather how the binder advances his his practice. The binder delves into arcane Pact Magic, exploiting and breaking pacts with his vestiges as he sees fit to become a superior spellcaster.

Yes, I know I'm using adjectives now, but I think that's how I feel it should be, and it takes less space on a character sheet. I tried to use words we agreed upon, as well as words I could imagine being used in conjunction with the word "Fate".

Does anyone have any objections to using these names?

Scarce

2015-09-27, 11:38 AM

I agree with this statement. Though if memory serves you originally advised me against labeling it as an unarmed strike to avoid the potential monk combos.

This is true. I've since decided that it would be wise to use those combos to our advantage, and implement a few of our own.

sounds fair. Do you think 1d4 will suffice for the Binder? It is also important to make sure he could do adequate damage with these if he builds to it, otherwise all of this is a pointless endeavor.

I think that's a really good question for playtesting. At lower levels, 1d4 is on par with monk strikes, so this doesn't strike me as unbalanced there. At 7th level, with Warped Fate, binding Amon and Ipos, with Hideous Strength, you could deal 3d4+3*Strength (with 3 attack rolls). This is where my understanding is a little fuzzier, and where we might need to implement some other damage increase to Warped Fate, if playtesting shows that damage is lacking.

at the same time, it is also conceptually ironic. The only place Dahlver-Nar has no teeth is in his mouth.:smallconfused:
see my thoughts just above. Chupoclops also has a bite, if memory serves.

Yeah, that's a good point. However, I really don't love the idea of all the vestiges with natural attacks being at lower level, while Chupoclops is at level 6 (I've added a bite to him, by the way, just to be safe.)

I'd be up for this:smallsmile: how do you propose the having more sources of mutations will benefit him at higher levels? Something like a multiattack?

So as I mentioned above, we should hold off on implementing this type of feature until we're sure that we need it (so that otherwise the Warped Fate can concentrate on more interesting interaction and exploration abilities), but I wrote a quick, and probably unbalanced one, just in case:
Abhorrent Strike
The influence of vestiges has made your body a deadly weapon. Choose one of the following features:
Ferocious Attack. You can make an additional strike with a natural weapon when you take the Attack action on your turn.
Poison Touch. Your unarmed strikes deal an additional 1d4 poison damage.
Gore. When you a single creature hit with two or more unarmed strikes on your turn, you may deal an additional 1d10 piercing damage.

The tail is a little confusing in it's wording, the first two lines say you can use it as an attack, the last sentence says you can't use it to attack. Mild rephrasing might be a good idea to understand what this tail can/can't do.

Fixed it. I meant it to say that it can't make weapon attacks.

Scarce

2015-09-27, 11:58 AM

Prince Zahn

2015-09-27, 12:06 PM

This is true. I've since decided that it would be wise to use those combos to our advantage, and implement a few of our own. Good thing we agreed on that matter. Puts us one step closer to putting the issue to bed.:smallsmile:

I think that's a really good question for playtesting. At lower levels, 1d4 is on par with monk strikes, so this doesn't strike me as unbalanced there. At 7th level, with Warped Fate, binding Amon and Ipos, with Hideous Strength, you could deal 3d4+3*Strength (with 3 attack rolls). This is where my understanding is a little fuzzier, and where we might need to implement some other damage increase to Warped Fate, if playtesting shows that damage is lacking.Melee DPR is a bit of a fuzzy issue for me too. The Playground graciously tutored me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?442388-Weapon-attack-damage-how-exactly-does-it-rise) a little about it, so I have a slightly better idea of the damage we should expect at important levels. As long as we don't go overboard with DPR, we should be fine.

Yeah, that's a good point. However, I really don't love the idea of all the vestiges with natural attacks being at lower level, while Chupoclops is at level 6 (I've added a bite to him, by the way, just to be safe.)
In 3.5, most natural weapons the Binder got from vestiges were from 6th level vestiges, with the exception of Amon. Two options present themselves to me at the moment, if we want to alleviate the weirdness: match all of these Vestiges with these unarmed strikes to the same level / tier of play, or buff up Chupoclops so that when you get him, and you can expect to have a level 13 Bite attack (even if he needs to spend a separate action to use it to it's fullest).

So as I mentioned above, we should hold off on implementing this type of feature until we're sure that we need it (so that otherwise the Warped Fate can concentrate on more interesting interaction and exploration abilities), but I wrote a quick, and probably unbalanced one, just in case:
*snippers* I'll look over that soon, my brain is getting tired for crunch.

Fixed it. I meant it to say that it can't make weapon attacks.thanks!

Prince Zahn

2015-09-27, 12:33 PM

Where does the 20 or more on attack rolls come from? at level 17, a KoSS has a full minute to substitute his attack roll result with his Charisma Score once each turn. That sounds to me like a bit much.

Also, I think either way, being able to change your patron vestige or not, is totally fine. Each has thematic problems. If you can change your patron vestige, it means less that the vestige is your patron. If you can't change your vestige, you need to know about that vestige, which presents difficulty in some campaign worlds where learning about vestiges early might be extremely difficult. Neither of these are big problems. while many vestiges are obscure, others might be legendary among other binders (Orthos, going by fluff, is apparently mentioned in many pact magic scripts, his name is established in Binder communities, but he is still a 9th level vestige.)

I would go with being able to change things, though, as it promotes a little more character freedom. Begin your character aspiring to become a lich, so you bind Acererak, but later decide that you want to turn away from undeath and embrace some other cause? You should be able to do that.The exact same could be said about Clerics:smallconfused: you might start devoting yourself to one deity, and eventually choose to convert your faith to something else entirely. If there is a possibility of conversion, which I legitly recognize, I would want such a decision to be a big deal. If not mechanically, then as a story element, but not because this is a smart way for me to get a good pact with the vestige I want at the time.

EDIT: It occurred to me that I could make a sidebar to deal with changing devotion, all we need to agree upon is what happens in such a case.

'Sacred Seal Fate' sounds really clumsy, and I much prefer 'Animus Fate'.Sealed Fate is an alternative, does that sound any better?
Also, "Animus Fate" is actually one that sounds dissonant to me. I don't want to be stuck with it in the long run. But I everyone gets an opinion.

Submortimer

2015-09-27, 07:44 PM

MMk, lots to pick through since i've been gone for a day or so.

On the topic of natural weapons
- After re-reading all of this stuff, you guys are right about "natural weapons" being unarmed strikes. Heck Alter Self straight up says that the weapons you can grow (claws, spines, etc) just allows your unarmed strike to deal 1d6 damage and you get proficiency with it.

- My suggestion was supposed to be more in line with what Zahn was looking for. The concept was that each deformity would deal a small amount of damage, have a rider, and be able to be boosted by channeling a specific vestige. Dahlver-Nar wasn't picked cause I think he needed a bit attack, I just figured the Vestige all about teeth was the appropriate one to augment a bite attack, if chosen.

On the topic of names
- I approve of Sealed Fate. I had stayed away from the term Sacred Seal, because I wasn't going to put them RIGHT in line with how they used to be.

- I also approve of Eldritch Fate.

- I still like Warped Fate better, if only because Twisted Fate is the name of a character from League of Legends, but I leave that to you

On the topic of the Sealed Fate

Here's a thought for the KoSS: you choose one vestige to devote to, but you can't don't change it. There are no limits on which vestige you devote to, even if you can't summon him yet. but you have to stick with that decision.

This really doesn't work. All of the Sealed Fate's abilities stem from being bound to his chosen vestige. I'd rater him chose to repatriate himself later on (as, you so mentioned, a cleric might) than pick something to champion that he cannot even contact yet. It SHOULD be a very large decision, and not one to be taken lightly, and I've made the mechanics facilitate that. (The process takes 24 hours, and you cannot bind any other vestiges save your new patron for a period of 7 days.)

Instead of a guaranteed good pact with your patron, you would get to choose your preferred influence the vestige will have on you when you get a bad pact.

This works, but why? Just let him make a good pact.

I'm not sure that virtually guaranteeing a 20 or more on your attack rolls is ethical to the game, even at 17th level.

I wasn't clear enough about how the ability worked, so that makes sense. It allows you to treat the attack roll result as your charisma score, not the die roll as your charisma score. if you have a 20 charisma, your total attack roll result would be 20, not 20 + modifiers. This makes it very effective against lower level enemies, not so much against the BBEG. I'll try to re-word it so as not to

Prince Zahn

2015-09-28, 10:44 AM

On the topic of names
- I approve of Sealed Fate. I had stayed away from the term Sacred Seal, because I wasn't going to put them RIGHT in line with how they used to be.

- I also approve of Eldritch Fate.

- I still like Warped Fate better, if only because Twisted Fate is the name of a character from League of Legends, but I leave that to you Awesome:smallsmile: I'm glad somebody likes the new names.
The terms "seal one's fate", and "Twist of fate" are established idioms in the English language, which makes them appeal to me better. I don't think I will let the existence of a notorious virtual gambler, a fiction novel with the same name, nor any Bob Dylan songs (et cetera,) to ruin a perfectly good name for me.

On the topic of the Sealed Fate
This really doesn't work. All of the Sealed Fate's abilities stem from being bound to his chosen vestige. I'd rater him chose to repatriate himself later on (as, you so mentioned, a cleric might) than pick something to champion that he cannot even contact yet. It SHOULD be a very large decision, and not one to be taken lightly, and I've made the mechanics facilitate that. (The process takes 24 hours, and you cannot bind any other vestiges save your new patron for a period of 7 days.) I'm unhappy with the idea that a crunch-minded player can switch out the vestige his binder is most devoted to just because he wants to secure an easy good pact with all the perks this is especially for vestiges with really high check DCs.

This works, but why? Just let him make a good pact.
Same reason as above. It's exploitable. I think choosing your influence is also a desirable perk that does not scream "you should always swear steadfast devotion to the dead god that you expect you need this week" as much as the old version.
I imagine a behind the curtain for DMs will be necessary in the Sealed Fate description for addressing "all thine benders of little faith":smalltongue: but I fear that I'm honestly at a loss right now over what might be written in it.

I wasn't clear enough about how the ability worked, so that makes sense. It allows you to treat the attack roll result as your charisma score, not the die roll as your charisma score. if you have a 20 charisma, your total attack roll result would be 20, not 20 + modifiers. This makes it very effective against lower level enemies, not so much against the BBEG. I'll try to re-word it so as not to
this is supposed to be safety net feature, but it's still a mighty powerful one at that: if you roll higher than 20, you're not going to swap it with your Charisma score. The closest thing I can see to this is the rogue's capstone feature, even though this applies only to attack rolls, it lasts for an entire minute. To hit something, you can simply skip a d20 roll each round when attacking any enemy with 20 AC or less when you use that feature.

The_Doctor

2015-09-28, 12:48 PM

As I understand it, we are trying to create alternate names of the "Fate" subclasses. Allow me:

Knight of the Sacred Seal: Fate of the Signed (Contracted Fate)

Anima Mage: Fate of the Wizard (Mage's Fate)

Master Occultist: Fate of the Scholar (Scholar's Fate)

Unfettered Fate: Fate of the Liberator

Awakened Fate: See Anima Mage

Warped Fate: Fate of the Twisted

The_Doctor

2015-09-28, 01:08 PM

Sorry for the double post, but what do you guys think of Marchosias?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19363783&postcount=73

Submortimer

2015-09-28, 01:46 PM

I'm unhappy with the idea that a crunch-minded player can switch out the vestige his binder is most devoted to just because he wants to secure an easy good pact with all the perks this is especially for vestiges with really high check DCs.

I can understand that; however, unless we can come up with a compromise that doesn't lock the binder into only the 1st or 2nd level vestiges that doesn't also gimp him until later levels, I'm keeping it the same.

EDIT: Something I just thought of: what if the sealed binder, either permanently or for some substantially long period of time (a year or more), can only make a bad pact with a vestige he chooses to break away from?

Same reason as above. It's exploitable. I think choosing your influence is also a desirable perk that does not scream "you should always swear steadfast devotion to the dead god that you expect you need this week" as much as the old version.
I imagine a behind the curtain for DMs will be necessary in the Sealed Fate description for addressing "all thine benders of little faith":smalltongue: but I fear that I'm honestly at a loss right now over what might be written in it.

Sure, but as we've established, getting a bad pact is mechanically more of an annoyance. They're isn't really anything TO exploit.

this is supposed to be safety net feature, but it's still a mighty powerful one at that: if you roll higher than 20, you're not going to swap it with your Charisma score. The closest thing I can see to this is the rogue's capstone feature, even though this applies only to attack rolls, it lasts for an entire minute. To hit something, you can simply skip a d20 roll each round when attacking any enemy with 20 AC or less when you use that feature.

So, this comes pretty much completely from the barbarian 18 level feature, which let's you replace a strength check with your strength score. It's not immediately comparable, until you realize that grapple checks are strength checks; THEN you see where I'm coming from.

All that being said, I'm considering rewriting the level 17 feature. I don't know to WHAT yet, but to something simpler.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-28, 02:19 PM

In this context, at least, It doesn't matter to me if playing by influence is an inconvenience or a hinderance, I don't want an easy way out of it for the high level vestiges.

TRUSTED VESTIGE
Starting at 6th level, you begin to form a stronger relationship with a particular vestige. This vestige will respond more readily to your summons, and is more likely to obey without attempting to subvert the bargain. Choose one vestige that you have previously summoned and remained bound to for a continuous period of no less than 24 hours. You have advantage on the binding check to make a good pact with this vestige. You can choose additional trusted vestiges at 11th and 15th level. You cannot choose the same vestige twice, and your trusted vestiges cannot be changed once chosen.

You want a compromise, here is one: it starts at 1st and 2nd level vestiges, but If you want to / have to change your devotion, you can only choose for another 1st or 2nd level vestige, or with one of your trusted vestiges, and again, let the Binder choose his influence instead of a guaranteed good pact, both to avoid an easy way out and to better sync with trusted vestiges.

EDIT: If we can Agree on how it works, it would be much easier to brainstorm on any reprimands for switching out your patron vestiges like pokémon.

Submortimer

2015-09-28, 02:31 PM

I've done some more thinking as we get to the editing and balancing part of our project, and I think, when it comes to the subclasses, it's important for us to acknowledge what they should be good at doing.

Sealed fate: Melee combat, specifically melee damage. This guy is gonna hit hard, and (in my eyes) should be the only fate to get Extra Attack proper.

Twisted Fate: Melee combat, but of the tricky monk variety. I envision the high level Twisted binder to be a full on monster: tail, claws, horns, fangs, wings, and he can use them all in a Flurry each round. Not only that, but he should be focused more towards inconveniencing or incapacitating the enemy, vice just damaging him.

Eldritch fate: spellcasting, aka blasting. Not much more to be said.

Occult fate: ABB: Always be Binding. Also, PETS. The Occult fate binder may actually be the head of a cult, and uses his allies and other empty vessels to do his dirty work for him. I see the Occult binder sacrificing a goat over the seal of Amon, then letting Amon flow through and possess the goat entirely, becoming an instrument for the binder to direct. (Also, goat simulator, because goats

Released Fate: stealth/scouting/ infiltration. Released should be all about breaking though your mortal shackles and gaining access to the most secret of places, and his abilities reflect that.

Also, new 17th level Sealed fate ability:

Patron's Ageis
At 17th level, when you bind your patron vestige, you gain a pool of temporary HP equal to 5 + your charisma score. Once per turn, when you strike a creature in combat with a melee weapon attack, you can add temporary HP to this pool equal to half the damage dealt by the attack, to a maximum of twice your charisma score. These temporary HP last until you sever the bond from your patron vestige.

Submortimer

2015-09-28, 02:40 PM

You want a compromise, here is one: it starts at 1st and 2nd level vestiges, but If you want to / have to change your devotion, you can only choose for another 1st or 2nd level vestige, or with one of your trusted vestiges, and again, let the Binder choose his influence instead of a guaranteed good pact, both to avoid an easy way out and to better sync with trusted vestiges.

That...seems alright to me. It's also pretty much expected that a sealed binder will choose his patron as his permanently bound vestige, when he gets to that level.

EDIT: If we can Agree on how it works, it would be much easier to brainstorm on any reprimands for switching out your patron vestiges like pokémon.

Shhh! I was keeping the Vestige Phylactery magic item a secret!

Focalor, I choose you!

Prince Zahn

2015-09-28, 02:49 PM

I've done some more thinking as we get to the editing and balancing part of our project, and I think, when it comes to the subclasses, it's important for us to acknowledge what they should be good at doing.

Sealed fate: Melee combat, specifically melee damage. This guy is gonna hit hard, and (in my eyes) should be the only fate to get Extra Attack proper.

Twisted Fate: Melee combat, but of the tricky monk variety. I envision the high level Twisted binder to be a full on monster: tail, claws, horns, fangs, wings, and he can use them all in a Flurry each round. Not only that, but he should be focused more towards inconveniencing or incapacitating the enemy, vice just damaging him..

If it helps you sleep better, sure, why not:
If you want to talk what we expect the subclasses, the roles seem to go against common expectation: based on everyone's recent design notes, whereas the big bad Twisted Fate Binder would focus on being turning into a monster with more small attacks, I picture the Sealed Fate contrasting it by focusing on tanking and dealing the "massive blow". I have no problem keeping the damage of unarmed strikes low because feats (and some vestiges) could easily pump up DPR. The sealed fate, in this case, should focus more on hitting large when he hits, and be closer on par with the martials, regardless of how many attacks he might get. This way you can have two melee approaches that are very distinct from each other.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-28, 03:07 PM

Eldritch fate: spellcasting, aka blasting. Not much more to be said.

Occult fate: ABB: Always be Binding. Also, PETS. The Occult fate binder may actually be the head of a cult, and uses his allies and other empty vessels to do his dirty work for him. I see the Occult binder sacrificing a goat over the seal of Amon, then letting Amon flow through and possess the goat entirely, becoming an instrument for the binder to direct. (Also, goat simulator, because goats

Released Fate: stealth/scouting/ infiltration. Released should be all about breaking though your mortal shackles and gaining access to the most secret of places, and his abilities reflect that. no argument whatsoever on Eldritch and Released Fates.

I wanted to ask you this but kept putting it off: if you want to include the vessels (aka vestige zombies/corpses) into the mix, I'd like you to build the necessary stat blocks to accomodate it. A relatively Streamlined, simple collection will suffice, so a player can just stick it into combat and add the Vestige's abilities, can you do that? :smallsmile:

Also, new 17th level Sealed fate ability:

Patron's Aegis*
At 17th level, when you bind your patron vestige, you gain a pool of temporary HP equal to 5 + your charisma score. Once per turn, when you strike a creature in combat with a melee weapon attack, you can add temporary HP to this pool equal to half the damage dealt by the attack, to a maximum of twice your charisma score. The temporary HP lasts until you sever the bond from your patron vestige.
FTFY. This seems neater, I think having it reset upon finishing a short or long rest would be a nice refinement. However, I am not the expert on high level play.:smallredface:

Submortimer

2015-09-28, 03:07 PM

Prince Zahn

2015-09-28, 03:16 PM

So, sealed fate can now only select a trusted vestige as a new patron. I have a question. That didn't come to light till now, mostly because it specifically prevents me from making Eligor a patron: why is the binder's vestige level progression off by one? Every other spell caster goes up a level of spell at every odd level, while binders have a weird three levels stuck at 4. I recommend changing this to the normal spell level progression (even WARLOCK'S follow it, if you count mystic acanum).

Edit: I know vestiges aren't spells, bit the have a 9 level structure and follow the spell damage rules and whatnot.
A good question. While I agree that it might be a little odd, and it is untested, I want to see if it helps prevent a variety of issues. My hypothesis is that it makes it easier on the class to work with the high level features. And among other things, I frankly have no desire to let 8th level vestiges become trusted vestiges, lest they become candidates for the everlasting pact and that would be too big of a game changer.:smallsmile:

The_Doctor

2015-09-28, 03:20 PM

I have an idea. There are four (admittedly broad) categories of vestiges: Melee, Defense, Spellcasting, and Utility. Why don't we have one subclass for each (if there are more than one, pick your favorite):

Knight of the Sacred Seal ---> Contracted Fate, Sealed Fate, Knight's Fate, Sword's fate, etc.
This guy is the Melee fate, with effects revolving around melee thingamagigs. In addition, there should be a sub-theme of effects based on what vestige you are devoted to.

Warped Fate, Twisted Fate, etc.
This is another Melee fate, with effects revolving around natural weapons. Possibility of enhancing natural attacks given to you by the vestiges.

*new!* Guardian's Fate, Watchman's Fate, etc.
This is our first Defense fate, with effects based around defending your allies, rather than just yourself.

Master Occultist --> Fate of the Scholar, Scholar's Fate, etc.
This Defense fate reflects the massive knowledge you have obtained to better defend yourselves from the horrors of the worlds.

Anima Mage ---> Awakened Fate, Wizard's Fate, etc.
This Spellcasting fate lets you exploit your vestiges to unlock the magical secrets hidden inside.

*new!* Scion of Dantalion --> Starbound Fate, Emperator's Fate
This Spellcasting fate lets you debuff enemies and project an aura of confidence, with the occasional tentacled horror or two.

Unfettered Fate, Unbound Fate, etc.
This Utility fate has various effects. ((I haven't read this fate too well so someone else can give a better description.))

(SECOND UTILITY FATE UNDERWAY)

Prince Zahn

2015-09-28, 03:28 PM

I have an idea. There are four (admittedly broad) categories of vestiges: Melee, Defense, Spellcasting, and Utility. Why don't we have one subclass for each (if there are more than one, pick your favorite):
*snip*
(SECOND UTILITY FATE UNDERWAY)
A splendid thesis, Doctor, But given the choice I would rather minimize the variety of subclasses rather than add more. But I reckon we're too far gone to take any away, so we're gonna try to work with 5.
To use the notes on your thesis, these are the likely roles:
SF: Combat, Defense
TF: Combat, Utility
EF: magic, Combat
RF: Utility, Magic(?)
OF: Utility, ??? (I'm guessing support)

The_Doctor

2015-09-28, 03:32 PM

Note how I said "If more than one, pick your favorite". That would mean only 4 subclasses total.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-28, 03:35 PM

Note how I said "If more than one, pick your favorite". That would mean only 4 subclasses total.
I'd rather try for my Twisted Fate idea to co exist with the Sealed Fate. Don't take it personally.

The_Doctor

2015-09-28, 03:56 PM

Well then, you can have both. BOOM! 5 subclasses.

Submortimer

2015-09-28, 04:21 PM

A splendid thesis, Doctor, But given the choice I would rather minimize the variety of subclasses rather than add more. But I reckon we're too far gone to take any away, so we're gonna try to work with 5.
To use the notes on your thesis, these are the likely roles:
SF: Combat, Defense
TF: Combat, Utility
EF: magic, Combat
RF: Utility, Magic(?)
OF: Utility, ??? (I'm guessing support)

Right. Also, scarce had been very vocal about not liking the fact that we have 5, let alone adding more. I'm comfortable with 5, so long as they are significantly different from one another (which I think they are).

My intent is to definitively lock down the subclasses, have Zahn get them up on the front page, and then move on to the rest of the class as a whole.

The_Doctor

2015-09-28, 04:31 PM

In any case, may I make a suggestion? I think we should rename them to sound more, I don't know, "magical" sounding.

For example,

Fate of the Seal

Fate of the Broken (Warped Fate)

Fate of the Awakened

Fate of the Exploiter (could do with more thought)

Fate of the Released (Unfettered Fate)

Fate of the Scholar (Master Occultist)

Prince Zahn

2015-09-28, 04:31 PM

Right. Also, scarce had been very vocal about not liking the fact that we have 5, let alone adding more. I'm comfortable with 5, so long as they are significantly different from one another (which I think they are).

My intent is to definitively lock down the subclasses, have Zahn get them up on the front page, and then move on to the rest of the class as a whole.
This.
The thing is I don't know if I'm able or willing to relinquish either of my 2 subclasses for brevity. I would rather fight to fix them.:smallfrown: (The Released Fate will certainly get his turn, too, I'm just really focused on the Twisted one right now)

@Doctor my issue is all those "of the" in the middle. It takes up space in the name that I don't feel contributes much. I'd greatly appreciate if you can find away around it.

Submortimer

2015-09-28, 04:43 PM

This.
The thing is I don't know if I'm able or willing to relinquish either of my 2 subclasses for brevity. I would rather fight to fix them.:smallfrown: (The Released Fate will certainly get his turn, too, I'm just really focused on the Twisted one right now)

@Doctor my issue is all those "of the" in the middle. It takes up space in the name that I don't feel contributes much. I'd greatly appreciate if you can find away around it.

Right. I'm with you on the 5. I want a crack at reworking unfettered to be more unique, because I think it has real potential.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-28, 04:50 PM

Right. I'm with you on the 5. I want a crack at reworking unfettered to be more unique, because I think it has real potential.

I kinda need to be asleep by now, but can we wrap up the Sealed || Twisted stuff before we move to Released?
I'm sorry if it sounds restrictive but all this chaotic jumping from one issue to another without conclusively finishing what we're working on is psychologically eating me up inside.

EDIT: I respect that there is a lot to get done - I kmow that there's a LOT still to get done, but Rome wasn't built in a day. And too much at once can be an Obsessive-compulsive Attention Deficit Nightmare, and it takes much longer to get anything done.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-28, 04:56 PM

Going to sleep while I still can, please try not to arrange a mutiny while I'm gone.

I'm going to need a lot of energy to work on the Vestige Codex.

Submortimer

2015-09-28, 05:10 PM

I kinda need to be asleep by now, but can we wrap up the Sealed || Twisted stuff before we move to Released?
I'm sorry if it sounds restrictive but all this chaotic jumping from one issue to another without conclusively finishing what we're working on is psychologically eating me up inside.

EDIT: I respect that there is a lot to get done - I kmow that there's a LOT still to get done, but Rome wasn't built in a day. And too much at once can be an Obsessive-compulsive Attention Deficit Nightmare, and it takes much longer to get anything done.

Sure, of course. As it stands, if I can get some feedback on the new 17th level ability, I think the Sealed Fate is done, minus a bit more Fluff; pretty much all of the issues have been addressed.
- he can choose the influence he wants, if he makes a bad pact instead of just making a good pact.
- if he wants to change his vestige, it has to be a Trusted Vestige (I'm even removing the level 1-2 vestiges from the mix, Trusted vestiges only). I'd still like to figure out a way to allow 8th level vestiges to be trusted vestiges, as Eligor is just begging to be made a patron. Perhaps limiting the level of vestige allowable for Everlasting pact (I'm thinking 5th) Since that seems to be the primary argument against it.
- 17th level ability is less game breaking, AFAICT.

Beyond that, I don't want to change it further.

Submortimer

2015-09-28, 09:32 PM

Unless there are any other objections, these are the final versions of my subclasses.

Sealed Fate

A binder of the with the Sealed Fate forms a true partnership with a specific Vestige. She becomes that vestige's champion, Taking it's seal as her symbol, and actively advances her patron's desires and goals. In return, her patron grants her powers beyond that of other binders, enhancing her ability to fight on it's behalf.

Patron Vestige
At 3rd level, you may select a vestige which you have bound with a good pact before. That vestige becomes your patron vestige, your sword and your shield against those who might attempt to harm you. This confers on you a number of benefits:
- Should you make a poor pact with your patron, you may choose which influence you take.
- While bound to your patron vestige, you gain a fighting style from the following list: Great Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting, Dueling, Protection, Archery.
- While not wearing armor, your AC is equal to 13 + your dexterity modifier.

You may change your patron vestige after you have made this choice; doing so requires a ritual lasting 24 hours. The new patron must be one of your Trusted Vestiges. Following this change, you may bind only your new patron vestige for a period of 7 days, and your previous patron will not answer you call for a period of 30 days.

Proficiencies
At 3rd level, You gain proficiency in Martial weapons and shields.

Patron Boon
At 7th level, while bound to your Patron Vestige, you gain an additional pact augmentation.

Patron Strike
At 13th level, your melee and ranged weapon attacks deal additional psychic damage equal to your charisma modifer.

Patron's Ageis
At 17th level, your patron shields your form from harm, turning lethal blows and denying your death. When you bind to your patron vestige, you gain a pool of temporary HP equal to 5 + your charisma score. Once oer turn, when you strike a creature with a melee weapon attack, you may add a number of temporary HP to this pool equal to half the damage dealt. This pool has a maximum size of twice your charisma score.
These temporary HP are lost upon breaking your bond with your patron vestige, and the pool size resets to 5 + your charisma score following a long rest.

Occult Fate

Vestiges are highly alien, frightening, and volatile beings; binding is, therefore, a rather dangerous business. Binders who follow the Occult Fate seek to stabilize their practice though ritual and study, focusing on the art and skill of binding above all else.

Occult Speciality
At third level select three vestiges you know that you have made a good pact with; these vestiges must be at least 1 level lower than your highest known vestige level, and may not be higher level than 6. You may bind one of these vestiges without it counting against your daily limit of vestige levels, or number of vestiges bound. You may expel this vestige normally, but you may not renegotiate a new vestige in it's place. once you use this ability you must make a long rest before you can do so again.
You may select an additional vestige at 7th, 13th, and 17th level.

Occult Phenomenon
At third level, you gain the Mage Hand Cantrip and either the Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy, or Druidcraft cantrips.

Empty vessel
At 7th level, you may attempt to bind one of your Occult Speciality vestiges into either another willing host (that is not a binder) or a recently deceased humanoid or animal body, though this process takes much longer than the usual binding ritual. Following a 10 minute ritual, make a binding check with disadvantage against that vestige; success binds the target, failure binds the vestige to yourself with a bad pact. Doing so counts as if you had bound the vestige to yourself, and as such counts against your total levels of bound vestige and number of vestiges bound in a day.
A living target you bind a vestige to gains all the benefits of having bound that vestige himself with a bad pact, but otherwise remains in control of his form. A body you bind a vestige to gains all of the abilities of the vestige in question, and is otherwise a normal creature of it's type, acting on your initiative. The creature is not undoer you direct control: while it generally acts as you direct, it is treated as having both influences of the bound vestige, and will not ignore them under any circumstance, even if that results in personal harm. In either case, if the creature dies or is killed again, the bond breaks immediately; if lost in this fashion, any levels of vestige used are unusable until you take a long rest. You cannot bind the same vestige to multiple creatures (including yourself) at the same time.
You may place a bind on one other creature at 7th level, and 2 at 17th level.

Medium
At 13th level, you learn to channel vestiges with much greater efficiency and fluidity. When renegotiating your pacts following a short rest, you may expel any or all of your current vestiges, and make new pacts as if it was following a long rest; you still may not exceed your maximum number of vestiges bound at one time. As well, you do not have disadvantage when attempting to re-bind an expelled vestige within 24 hours.
After using this ability to renegotiate your pacts, you must take a long rest before you can do so in this fashion again.

Master Summoner
At 17th level, you learn to expedite the binding process to the point that you can swap vestiges in the blink of an eye. As an action, you may expel a bound vestige and bind a new vestige, following the standard rules for renegotiation. Once you use this ability, you must take a long rest before doing so again.

Eldritch Fate

Though Binding is not spellcasting in the usual sense, it is not altogether different. Binders who follow the Eldritch Fate learn to take that skill and apply it to magic of the proper sort. As well, they learn to exploit their connection to the vestiges they bind, which they refer to as Anima, taking the power they give and channeling it directly into magical might.

Pact magic
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast spells.

Cantrips
You learn two cantrips from the sorcerer spell list. You learn an additional cantrip at 8th, 13th, and 19th level.

Spell Slots
You gain two pact magic spells slots, and an additional one at 14th level. Your spell slots are all if the same level, and always of the highest level that you can cast. These slots refresh following a short rest.

Spells Known
You know a number of spells from the warlock spell list as determined by the Eldritch Fate spells table. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the spells you know with another spell of your choice from the warlock spell list. The new spell must be of a level lower than or equal to the highest level spell you can cast.

Eldritch Fate Spells Known

Binder Level
Spell Level
Spells Known

3rd
1
2

4th
1
2

5th
1
3

6th
1
3

7th
2
4

8th
2
5

9th
2
5

10th
2
6

11th
3
6

12th
3
7

13th
3
7

14th
3
8

15th
3
9

16th
4
10

17th
4
11

18th
4
12

19th
4
13

20th
4
13

Spellcasting Ability
Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your spells, since the power of your magic relies on your ability to project your will into the world. The Difficulty Class for any of your Eldritch Binder spells is equal to 8 + your Charisma Modifier + your Proficiency Bonus.

Anima casting
At 3rd level, you learn to exploit your bound vestiges for magical power. As a bonus action, you may convert a vestige you currently have bound into a single spell slot or multiple smaller spell slots. The total spell slot level is one lower than the level of the vestige used. Once you have done so, you lose access to that vestige's powers until you take a long rest, and you cannot renegotiate your pact with it.
Using this ability, you may make and use spell slots of a higher level than you normally have available. Doing so is highly dangerous: when attempting to use a slot of a higher level than you normally gain, you must make a concentration check; failure causes the spell slot to be lost, and you trigger an effect from the Wild Magic table.

Anima shield
At 7th level, you force a bound vestige into being your personal watchdog. While you are bound to a vestige with a good pact, you add your proficiency bonus to your initiative modifier, and you cannot be surprised.

Anima Mark
At 13th level, you learn to mix your arcane power with your skills at vestige seal-crafting. During a ritual taking 1 minute, you inscribe a personal mark on a willing creature you can touch. The Mark lasts until dismissed, after which it fades away; it cannot be erased or dispelled by magic short of a Wish. The Mark disappears if you die, or if the creature bearing it dies. Once you mark a creature in this fashion, you must finish a long rest before you can do so again, and you cannot have more than one marked creature at a time.
A marked Creature is bonded to you, much the same way you are bonded to your vestiges. This grants a number of benefits to the bonded creature:

While you are within 1 mile of your bonded creature, you may communicate telepathically with it, even if you do not share a language.
As long as the creature bearing your Mark is on the same plane as you, you know which direction the creature is in. If the creature dies, you are instantly aware of it.
You may cause any any spells you cast that affect only to affect your bonded creature as well, and you may cast spells with a range of Touch on your bonded creature as long as they are within 60 feet.
As a reaction, you may cause your mark to surge with power. Doing so allows your bonded creature to re-roll a failed attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again.

Anima mastery
At 17th level, you can use your vestige's bonds as a conduit to the Far Plane, gaining powerful insights at a possibly deadly cost. You may sacrifice vestige you have bound: doing so allows you to cast any warlock or sorcerer spell of the same level as the vestige you sacrificed. Sacrificing a vestige causes you to lose the abilities of that vestige, and you cannot renegotiate that pact until you take a long rest.
You may use this ability to cast spells of a higher level than your pact magic would allow. When using this ability to cast a spell of 5th level or higher, you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 11 + the spell level: failure causes you to take 1d10 points of unavoidable and irreducible psychic damage + 1d10 per level of the spell cast.
Once you use this ability, you must take a long rest before you can do so again.

Patron's skill (Pre-Req: Sealed Fate)
You may attack twice when using the attack action on your turn.

Patron's Blade (Pre-req: Sealed Fate, binder level 7)
Your patron's power flows through your weapons. You may treat any weapon you wield that you are proficient in as magical.

Monsterous Flurry (Pre-req: Twisted Fate)
When you make an unarmed strike with a claw, horns, tail, or other natural weapon, you may use your bonus action to make one unarmed strike with each other natural weapon you possess. These additional attacks do not add any stat modifiers to damage.

Mutable Form (Pre-req: Twisted Fate, Binder level 10)
You may cast the Alter Self spell without using a spell slot.

Anima Sight (Pre-req: Eldritch Fate, Binder level 10)
As an action, you may abandon your senses, allowing you to perceive the world through your bonded creature. This lasts for as long as you maintain concentration on it.

Anima Knowledge (Pre-req: Eldritch Fate)
You learn one additional spell from the sorcerer or warlock spell list.

Poltergeist (pre-req: Occult Fate)
Upon binding to one of your Occult Specialty vestiges, you summon an Unseen Servant as per the spell. It remains in existence until you break your bond with that vestige.

Occult Bastion (pre-req: Occult Fate, Binder level 10)
You and any creatures you have bound a vestige to via Empty Vessel gain a +2 bonus to a type of saving throw. Each time you select this augment, you must select a different saving throw.

Hazy Visage (pre-req: Released Fate)
Your connection to the far realm begins distorts your corporeal form, causing creatures to mistake your location. On any turn you do not move, you may, as an action, distort space around you; Attacks against you have disadvantage while you are under this effect. This effect lasts until either you move or you are hit by an attack.

Unfettered Step (Pre-req: Released Fate, binder level 10)
Your ever more insubstantial form allows you to traverse the world you see with effortless ease. While under the effect of your Intangible Presance ability, you gain the benefits of the Spider Climb and Jump spells.

Also, Zahn, I had an interesting idea with regards to "Occult Relics/tools" for use with binding:

The standard Binding check is a charisma Check, that you add your proficiency modifier to.
What I suggest is that all binders are proficient in "Binder's tools": Ritual tools used for summoning vestiges. You can use binder's tools to make binding checks, adding your proficiency bonus to the check.
This opens the door for magical tools that grant you bonuses to binding, and sets in place the ritual of the whole thing. Also, it gives us a means to add your proficiency bonus to the check in a way that works with 5e's normal tool proficiency system.

Scarce

2015-09-28, 09:43 PM

With the changes we've talked about for Amon, I think the first two levels of the class are balanced and completely ready for playtesting. I do want to talk about Ronove before I move onto balancing the 2nd level vestiges (with the early parts of the subclasses). I don't think it has any problems, in fact I think it's right on par for 1st level, but I want to tidy up the wording in it a little (mostly in Far Hand), and because I haven't seen Spiriah here in a little while, I'll just repost it.

Ronove
The Iron Maiden
1st Level Vestige

Magic Attacks
Your unarmed strikes count as magic weapons for purposes of overcoming resistance or immunity to weapon damage.

Ronove’s Fists
You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes, and you can deal Martial Arts damage with your unarmed strikes as though you were a monk of your binder level.

Sprint
Your speed increases by 10 feet.

Ronove’s Endurance
While bound to Ronove, you only need to eat, drink, and sleep one-third as often as normal. You also treat your level of exhaustion as being one less than it actually is, and thus suffer no penalties until you have received two levels of exhaustion.

Feather Fall
You can cast the spell feather fall at will.

Far Hand
You know the cantrip mage hand, and can cast it at will. This version is more powerful and has the following differences:

The hand can carry up to 10 pounds for every two binder levels you posses.
You can control the hand as a bonus action, rather than an action, except when using it to manipulate or use an object in a way that would take you an action to do so.
You can push a creatures using the hand. As an action, you can command to hand to shove a creature within 5 feet of it, which must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 1d6 force damage and is pushed 10 feet in a direction that you choose.
At 7th level, this push deals 2d6 force damage and knocks creatures prone on a failed save. Finally at 17th level, you deal 3d6 damage on a push, and you may cast the spell telekinesis without expending a spell slot. After casting this spell, you must complete a short rest before casting it again.

In life, Ronove was a charismatic guru who taught that enlightenment comes from denial—first of the needs of the flesh, then of the perceived limits of reality, and lastly of the rules of reality. Her frequent demonstrations of power served to illustrate the validity of her ideas to others. She leapt from cliffs without harm, lifted boulders with her thoughts, and lived for months without eating or drinking. Although Ronove gathered many followers, not one of her disciples could manage her great feats. Some began to question her methods.

To prove the veracity of her teachings, Ronove entombed herself underground in an iron coffin, telling her students to dig her up only when they received a sign from her. However, years passed without a sign, and her followers dwindled, leaving only one. Disillusioned, he dug up the coffin. Finding it empty, he told the other former disciples of what had happened, but none believed him, and Ronove and her nameless follower faded into obscurity.

Influence:

Ideal:
Despite what anyone says, you feel the need to prove your worth.

Personality Trait:
You cannot eat or drink (including potions) while you remain bound to Ronove.

Scarce

2015-09-28, 09:51 PM

There's a lot to dig through here, so I'll just take a quick look at some of the augmentations for now:

Binder's blade (Pre-Req: Sealed Fate)
You gain the Extra Attack class feature. This does not stack with any other source of Extra Attack.

The Extra Attack feature is already crazy short and already doesn't stack because of its wording. It should just read:

You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

Pact Weapon (Pre-req: Sealed Fate)
You are able to summon a magic weapon from beyond. This weapon may be any form you choose, and is considered magical. You are proficient with this weapon.

Seems pretty weak, don't you think?

Anima Knowledge (Pre-req: Eldritch Fate)
You learn one additional spell from the sorcerer, warlock, or bard spell list.

Bard list=healing magic.

EDIT:
Also, Occult Fate kinda sucks at 3rd level. The cantrips are not generally useful especially in combat, and Occult Specialty doesn't really carry any mechanical weight. The cantrip feature should be the same as Eldritch Fate, at the very least, and Occult Specialty should be comparable to getting two spell slots, however you balance that.

I've been thinking a lot about Occult Fate, and I really think it should be the Binder-That-Is-The-Best-At-Binding, but right now its a half-measure necromancer (I've discussed before that I don't like that half of Empty Vessel.) Maybe Occult Specialty should be something like granting the ability to bind an additional vestige for a limited time. That screams I'm-The-Most-Binder-Binder.

The_Doctor

2015-09-29, 10:24 AM

Hmm. I just noticed that Warped Fate is partially incomplete. It is missing the last option for the Otherworldly feature.

Let's see. What are three things common among Cthulhu-style deities? Well, they eat things (Siphoning), they are hard to kill (Impervious), and they all seem to cause Will saves...

Unsettling. While you are in Abberation form, you cause anyone who gazes upon you to make a Wisdom saving throw or become paralyzed for 1 round.

Submortimer

2015-09-29, 01:08 PM

The Extra Attack feature is already crazy short and already doesn't stack because of its wording. It should just read:

yep. changed.

Seems pretty weak, don't you think?

A free magic weapon of any type you want? IF IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR A WARLOK, IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR US!

Bard list=healing magic.

Crap, I forgot. changed.

EDIT:
Also, Occult Fate kinda sucks at 3rd level. The cantrips are not generally useful especially in combat, and Occult Specialty doesn't really carry any mechanical weight. The cantrip feature should be the same as Eldritch Fate, at the very least, and Occult Specialty should be comparable to getting two spell slots, however you balance that.

I've been thinking a lot about Occult Fate, and I really think it should be the Binder-That-Is-The-Best-At-Binding, but right now its a half-measure necromancer (I've discussed before that I don't like that half of Empty Vessel.) Maybe Occult Specialty should be something like granting the ability to bind an additional vestige for a limited time. That screams I'm-The-Most-Binder-Binder.

I never realized this, but you're right. Occult fate is FLAVORFUL, but not powerful, at least, not as much as the other subclasses. I'll rework that 3rd level feature into something better.

EDIT: Scarce, check the 3rd level feature now, it should be better.

EDIT #2: I'm willing to drop the latter half of Empty Vessel, but I'd really like to playtest it first. When we get to the point where we can playtest higher level binders, we'll give it a shot, and if it's too OP, i'll drop that part of the feature completely. I STILL think it's flavorful and fun, but I can see where it could be problematic.

The_Doctor

2015-09-29, 02:45 PM

Submortimer

2015-09-29, 02:55 PM

You know what else is good enough for a warlock? ELDRITCH BLAST!

I consider Eldritch Blast one of the best cantrips in the game (other favorites include Vicious Mockery), and intend to use it as a baseline wherever possible.

I mean, yes, but that is one of the Warlock's special things. It certainly IS the best cantrip in the game (Damage wise) when you mix it with Agonizing blast, but beyond that it's actually no more powerful than Fire Bolt. I won't poach that. Other classes do the Magic Weapon thing (Eldritch Knight, Druid with Shileleigh, Monk unarmed strikes), but not poaching the warlock's best trick.

Scarce

2015-09-29, 03:05 PM

EDIT: Scarce, check the 3rd level feature now, it should be better.

I like it! I mean, I have no way of knowing if it's too powerful, but I like it all the same.

EDIT: Also, the Pact Weapon is a warlock Pact Boon, not an invocation (and thus a little less powerful than most of the invocations, which is where our Augmentations seem to balanced.) Not a huge gripe, I just think it needs a little more.

The_Doctor

2015-09-29, 03:26 PM

Prince Zahn

2015-09-29, 03:29 PM

EDIT: Also, the Pact Weapon is a warlock Pact Boon, not an invocation (and thus a little less powerful than most of the invocations, which is where our Augmentations seem to balanced.) Not a huge gripe, I just think it needs a little more.

Frankly, I don't even feel the Binder needs this at all. I feel this an important warlock schtick, but I don't feel at ease giving it to the Binder too. Same principal with Eldritch blast, whether or not the binder has the means to make it as powerful as the warlock. If he really wants EB without multiclassing, there might be a feat out there for him.

@Doctor. There are no rules for gaze* attacks in 5e.

The_Doctor

2015-09-29, 03:31 PM

EDIT: How would you recommend fixing it, then?

Prince Zahn

2015-09-29, 03:35 PM

EDIT: How would you recommend fixing it, then? to my memory of 5e, the gaze attacks from previous edition(s) has been translated into making a single target within range* make a saving throw vs. Bad stuff. The monster manual may have a few examples of what I'm talking about.

The_Doctor

2015-09-29, 03:37 PM

How's this?

Unsettling. As an action, you can force all within 30 feet of you to make a Wisdom saving throw or be paralyzed for 1 round.

I said "gaze upon," so it works whenever someone looks at you, not vice versa.

Submortimer

2015-09-29, 06:43 PM

Edit: Minor edits to things.

Scarce

2015-09-30, 01:45 PM

This is where the review of the vestiges gets challenging. At 3rd level, we get the first influence of subclasses, which means that the number of possible builds is multiplicative (one of the big reasons I was in favor of minimizing subclasses.)

That being said, first I'll balance the 2nd level vestiges against one another (in this post), then I'll be taking each subclass one-by-one and matching them to a vestige that matches that subclass's mechanical benefits (coming soon). Hopefully, this will expose any imbalances that are inherent in the system.

*A kind request: to move to the next section of buildtesting, I need the finished version of Amon and the Twisted Fate*

2nd Level Vestige Bulletpoints:

Haagenti
- proficiency with shields, battleaxes, and greataxes.
- Great Weapon Fighting Style
- (ribbon) bonus language
- Immune to pretrified condition, end transmutation effects
- Cha save or 1 creature misses 50% of the time for 1 round (1/short)

Ipos
- (ribbon) immunity to planar penalties
- 1d4 unarmed strike. Another strike as bonus action.
- Force disadvantage on saving throw for another vestige's ability (1/long)
- After 2 hits on 1 turn, deal additional 2d6 damage (1/short)

Leraje
- ignore some environmental conditions for arrows
- Advantage on Stealth in the wild
- Ignore ammunition (free arrows), +Cha to Damage with arrows, AoE critical
- Archery Fighting Style
- 1d4 of +2d8 arrows (ribbon for shapechangers)

Malphas
- invisibility (1/long)
- Sneak Attack as a rogue of 1/2 level
- proficiency with the poisoner's kit
- find familiar scout - see through familiar's eyes

Now, I wrote most of these, so I'm going to try to be objective and critical, with everyone's help. Some observations:
- Leraje's +Cha to damage is really powerful.
- I still think Leraje should just ignore all environmental conditions for arrows
- Haagenti's debuff is pretty short, and this might be indicative of Haagenti needing more power (as it would seem proficiencies are not nearly as valuable as they were when I wrote this)
- Malphas could use a 1/short ability. Maybe a spell to keep with it's current design.
Thoughts?

The_Doctor

2015-09-30, 01:52 PM

- Leraje's +Cha to damage is really powerful. Agreed; we really can't much better than this damage-wise, seeing as Cha is our primary.
- I still think Leraje should just ignore all environmental conditions for arrows What level is Leraje again? No really, I don't remember. But if she's anywhere near the same level she was in 3.5, I think that this might be *slightly* too strong. "Yes i scored a crit on that goblin in the middle of a hurricane no biggie"
- Haagenti's debuff is pretty short, and this might be indicative of Haagenti needing more power (as it would seem proficiencies are not nearly as valuable as they were when I wrote this) Agreed.
- Malphas could use a 1/short ability. Maybe a spell to keep with it's current design. I'll see what I can come up with.

My thoughts are in bold.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-30, 02:18 PM

My thoughts are in bold.
You know, we can't simply quote your thoughts if you write them inside the quote.
For all intents and purposes, use the +Cha to damage from level 9 and onwards. The critical splash starting at level 15+.
@Doctor Leraje is a 2nd level vestige now. Firing an arrow through a hurricane with Leraje is, indeed, possible, but with disadvantage. So if you somehow strike upon the 1 In 400 chance to score a critical hit with an arrow shot through a windstorm, gale, or monsoon, I'd say you earned it for all I care.:smalltongue:

I'll try to update the Twisted Fate. But this is a very busy week for me, If you can wait even a little for everything to get done.:smallsmile:

Amon? I need a recap on the changes, but I'll gladly get on that.

The_Doctor

2015-09-30, 02:36 PM

Sorry.

However, Scarce suggested ignoring ALL environmental conditions for arrows, which if I understand correctly makes it so that you can fire an arrow through a hurricane with no disadvantage.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-30, 02:41 PM

Sorry.

However, Scarce suggested ignoring ALL environmental conditions for arrows, which if I understand correctly makes it so that you can fire an arrow through a hurricane with no disadvantage.

fog, hail, and sleet are also weather conditions, but I don't think they should be ignored. Hence, my specifically targeting wind and not ALL weather. Leraje no longer lets you fire underwater freely anymore, either.

The_Doctor

2015-09-30, 02:57 PM

^ that makes perfect sense; why could you fire underwater anyway.

@Zahn: Comments on the latest version of Unsettling?

Prince Zahn

2015-09-30, 03:11 PM

^ that makes perfect sense; why could you fire underwater anyway.
Magic!~☆‏:smallwink:

@Zahn: Comments on the latest version of Unsettling?
I don't like it. For the Otherworldly, the activation is already an bonus action that makes you a more formidable opponent for 1 minute. like the other ones, it should be a benefit that does not require effort to use.

It submortimer isn't using it for Sealed Fate, how about I make the third option a minimum strength of 19 For 1 minute? Kind of like giving the player the means to "go hulk"? :P

The_Doctor

2015-09-30, 04:29 PM

I still think something requiring a Wisdom save should be added, to conform with the "Cthulhu" aspect of it.

How's this:

Unsettling: Any creature that comes within 30 feet of you or starts their turn in that area must make a Wisdom saving throw or be paralyzed for 1 round. Note that the enemy has to move into this area, you cannot simply move them into it.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-30, 04:31 PM

As Scarce requested, here's the latest draft on the Twisted Fate. At least it should be usable throughout all levels.

(note: see if subclass needs the following proficiency. It occured to me that now that none of the vestiges are offering a skill proficiency - I hope! -it's a little easier to give stuff like a skill proficiency in a subclass, full-fledged martial weapon proficiency, or a saving throw at a high enough level. Because we countered the big risks of skill/save inflation via vestiges.)

BONUS PROFICIENCY
Starting at 3rd Level, You have proficiency in the Intimidation or Perception skill, or with Disguise kits. (your choice)

UNNATURAL WEAPON
Starting at 3rd level, you gain your own physical sign that betrays your affiliation with pact magic, which you could use as weapon. The exact appearance and shape of your physical sign is up to you. You have one such disfigurement at 3rd level, and gain another another one starting at 13th level. You can choose the same sign twice, it's effects stack: When you deal damage with your unnatural weapon, you roll an additional damage die, and benefit from any additional effects a second time.
Once you have chosen an unnatural weapon, it can not be changed. You can show or supress this sign as a bonus action. Choose one of the following options:
Tentacles. You grow a pair of whipping tendrils. You can attack a creature with these tentacles as an unarmed strike, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage on a hit.
Tail. You grow a muscular, prehensile tail. You can attack a creature with your tail as an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a hit. Additionally, you can use your tail as an extra limb to perform very simple actions, such as opening a door or retrieving an arrow from a quiver. While you do so, it may not use it to hold a weapon or make an unarmed strike.
Spines. You grow a series of bony, pointed spines. You can attack a creature with your spines using an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 piercing damage on a hit. Additionally, when you end your turn grappling a creature, you deal 1d4 piercing damage to that creature.

The exact nature of this disfigurement is up to you, as long as it can reasonably fit as the the option you selected. Additionally, when you use the Attack action on your turn to make an unarmed strike, you can use a bonus action to make an unarmed strike with each of your other unarmed strikes once each. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of any of these additional attacks, unless that modifier is negative. You can not use the unattural weapon in conjuction with the normal unarmed strike described in the Player's Handbook (under Weapons)

ALTER SKIN
at 7th Level, you can adapt your skin and body with the aid of the slowly awakening monster with you. Changing it's hue and structure or otherwise providing an abnormal benefit. Choose from one of the following options:

Adaptative. you have advantage on all Constitution saving throws against environmental conditions that would cause fatigue (i.e. extreme heat or cold, high air pressure).
Camouflage. You can shift the color of your skin. You can attempt to hide whenever you are adjacent to a solid surface larger than you with a uniform color or simple pattern. (i.e. tall trees, stone walls, a Noble House corridor, etc.
Amphibious. you grow gills and fins. you can breath normally water as well as in normal air, and you gain a swim speed equal to your land speed.

Once you have chosen your alter skin feature, it cannot be changed. You can activate and suppress this feature as an action.

INDISCERNIBLE ANATOMY
At 13th level, the placement and composition of your internal organs shifts to be bizarre and logic defying. You take no additional damage from critical hits.

OTHERWORLDLY
When you reach 17th Level, you can manifest the eldritch beast within you and can fill take it's image. For 1 minute, your type changes to Aberration, you become Large sized, and select one of the following benefits:
Siphoning. Once per turn, when you hit with an attack you gain from your unnatural weapon feature, you can force the target to make a constitution saving throw. If it fails, it takes 1 level of exhaustion. In addition, Whenever one or more creatures fails the saving throw against a feature you gained from binding a vestige, you regain hit points equal half your level (rounded up or down?).
Impervious.When you first gain this feature, Choose 3 types of damage. once you have selected them, they cannot be changed. You have immunity against damage from the types you selected. The immunities you selected do not apply to damage from magical weapons.
Dire. the damage dice of each of your unarmed strikes increases to d8s, if it was not already higher.

Once you have chosen the benefit for this feature, you can not change it. You can end the effects of Otherworldly before the duration has expired. Once you have used this feature, you can not use it again until you complete a long rest.

@Doctor: I have more than just Cthulhu to think of. That being said, I think passively paralyzing people is going to get pretty crazy very fast. Maybe if you can think of a different way to keep the front liners away.
EDIT: I also wanna hear what others have to say about what is already in there first.

Submortimer

2015-09-30, 05:18 PM

BONUS PROFICIENCY
Starting at 3rd Level, You have proficiency in the Intimidation or Perception skill, or with Disguise kits. (your choice)

I'd just go with intimidation. There's nothing about this fate that suggests he's better at spotting things or that he's a master of disguise.

UNNATURAL WEAPON
Starting at 3rd level, you gain your own physical sign that betrays your affiliation with pact magic, which you could use as weapon. The exact appearance and shape of your physical sign is up to you. You have one such disfigurement at 3rd level, and gain another another one starting at 13th level. You can choose the same sign twice, it's effects stack: When you deal damage with your unnatural weapon, you roll an additional damage die, and benefit from any additional effects a second time.
Once you have chosen an unnatural weapon, it can not be changed. You can show or supress this sign as a bonus action. Choose one of the following options:
Tentacles. You grow a pair of whipping tendrils. You can attack a creature with these tentacles as an unarmed strike, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage on a hit.
Tail. You grow a muscular, prehensile tail. You can attack a creature with your tail as an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a hit. Additionally, you can use your tail as an extra limb to perform very simple actions, such as opening a door or retrieving an arrow from a quiver. While you do so, it may not use it to hold a weapon or make an unarmed strike.
Spines. You grow a series of bony, pointed spines. You can attack a creature with your spines using an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 piercing damage on a hit. Additionally, when you end your turn grappling a creature, you deal 1d4 piercing damage to that creature.

This, i think, is good. One exception: get rid of the part about taking a choice twice. Just allow people to select a second attack.

The exact nature of this disfigurement is up to you, as long as it can reasonably fit as the the option you selected. Additionally, when you use the Attack action on your turn to make an unarmed strike, you can use a bonus action to make an unarmed strike with each of your other unarmed strikes once each. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of any of these additional attacks, unless that modifier is negative. You can not use the unattural weapon in conjuction with the normal unarmed strike described in the Player's Handbook (under Weapons)

This, on the other hand, I think should be a pact augmentation, as i suggested up the thread a bit. This balances it against requiring Sealed fate to take a pact augmentation to get Extra Attack (Which i think is totally appropriate)

ALTER SKIN
at 7th Level, you can adapt your skin and body with the aid of the slowly awakening monster with you. Changing it's hue and structure or otherwise providing an abnormal benefit. Choose from one of the following options:

Adaptative. you have advantage on all Constitution saving throws against environmental conditions that would cause fatigue (i.e. extreme heat or cold, high air pressure).
Camouflage. You can shift the color of your skin. You can attempt to hide whenever you are adjacent to a solid surface larger than you with a uniform color or simple pattern. (i.e. tall trees, stone walls, a Noble House corridor, etc.
Amphibious. you grow gills and fins. you can breath normally water as well as in normal air, and you gain a swim speed equal to your land speed.

Once you have chosen your alter skin feature, it cannot be changed. You can activate and suppress this feature as an action.

INDISCERNIBLE ANATOMY
At 13th level, the placement and composition of your internal organs shifts to be bizarre and logic defying. You take no additional damage from critical hits.

This is all good.

OTHERWORLDLY
When you reach 17th Level, you can manifest the eldritch beast within you and can fill take it's image. For 1 minute, your type changes to Aberration, you become Large sized, and select one of the following benefits:
Siphoning. A target you hit with the attack you gain from your unnatural attack feature must succeed on a constitution saving throw or take 1 level of exhaustion. In addition, Whenever one or more creatures fails the saving throw against a feature you gained from binding a vestige, you regain hit points equal half your level.
Impervious.When you first gain this feature, Choose 3 types of damage. once you have selected them, they cannot be changed. You have immunity against damage from the types you selected. The immunities you selected do not apply to damage from magical weapons.
Dire. the damage dice of each of your unarmed strikes increases to d8s, if it was not already higher.

Once you have chosen the benefit for this feature, you can not change it. You can end the effects of Otherworldly before the duration has expired. Once you have used this feature, you can not use it again until you complete a long rest.

My problems here:
- Dire is the clear loser here. It should not be so cut and dry. If you tone down the rest, that might not be so bad.
- Siphoning: Holy hell. consider that this guy is likely to have a crap-ton of attacks at this level and you run into some insta-killing madness with this. I would adjust it to something like "Your attacks deal necrotic damage, and you regain HP equal to half the damage dealt when you hit a creature with an unarmed strike."
- Impervious: While i get the idea, three immunities is WAY too much. Dragon killing monster, this thing would be. I'd go either three resistances, or one immunity and two resistances.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-30, 05:25 PM

Not going b to address it all tonight, but I see your point on siphoning. I'll make it a once per turn for the duration.

The_Doctor

2015-09-30, 05:57 PM

@Submortimer: What are you comments on Unsettling. I'm not a big fan of Dire (though I am a bit biased) either.

Prince Zahn

2015-09-30, 06:27 PM

@Submortimer: What are you comments on Unsettling. I'm not a big fan of Dire (though I am a bit biased) either.

Not entirely sure why. The exact math can be fixed to increase DPR significantly. Not everything is about Cthulhu, either. You know very well by now that Lovecraft is not my author nor theme of choice.

Scarce

2015-09-30, 08:28 PM

fog, hail, and sleet are also weather conditions, but I don't think they should be ignored. Hence, my specifically targeting wind and not ALL weather. Leraje no longer lets you fire underwater freely anymore, either.

How often are you going to be in a hurricane while bound to Leraje? Mages never have to worry about their spell failing in heavy rain, so it's not unreasonable (in fact it's barely a footnote) to just ignore the weather. This is a ribbon feature; keep it simple.

(And I'm not joking-- I feel strongly about this. In a class that on it's own has a dedicated subsystem of vestiges and 4 (or 5) subclasses, we have absolutely zero room to waste on complicated ribbons. People will just lose interest in the paragraphs of stuff that will never come up.)

I'd just go with intimidation. There's nothing about this fate that suggests he's better at spotting things or that he's a master of disguise.

Totally agree.

This, i think, is good. One exception: get rid of the part about taking a choice twice. Just allow people to select a second attack.

This whole thing is a little obtuse. Why not just give a new list of unnatural attacks at 13th level? Pincer, Hooves, and Stinger, for example. This means we can simplify the original down to:

Starting at 3rd level, you gain your own physical sign that betrays your affiliation with pact magic, which you could use as weapon. The exact nature of this disfigurement is up to you, as long as it can reasonably fit as the the option you selected. Once you have chosen an unnatural weapon, it can not be changed. You can show or suppress this sign as a bonus action. Choose one of the following options:

Tentacles. You grow a pair of whipping tendrils. You can attack a creature with these tentacles as an unarmed strike, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage on a hit.
Tail. You grow a muscular, prehensile tail. You can attack a creature with your tail as an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a hit. Additionally, you can use your tail as an extra limb to perform very simple actions, such as opening a door or retrieving an arrow from a quiver. While you do so, it may not use it to hold a weapon or make an unarmed strike.
Spines. You grow a series of bony, pointed spines. You can attack a creature with your spines using an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 piercing damage on a hit. Additionally, when you end your turn grappling a creature, you deal 1d4 piercing damage to that creature.

This, on the other hand, I think should be a pact augmentation, as i suggested up the thread a bit. This balances it against requiring Sealed fate to take a pact augmentation to get Extra Attack (Which i think is totally appropriate)

You have to think about this like a monk, I think. Without this, you get a very weak natural attack with this subclass. With it, you get the option to use a few weak attacks in a row. Most of the natural attacks deal 1d4 damage, and you can hit a few times a round (but you can't apply ability score damage, which makes this even weaker than monks in all categories.) And there should be a pact augmentation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19875039&postcount=283)(no earlier than 7th level) that allows you to get that damage to stay competitive. Other than that, the number of attacks you get is limited to how many natural attack vestiges you can bind at one time, which is pretty low until like 9th level. I think you can optimize to get like 6 attacks, so maybe limit it to 4 attacks, (and change some of the wording) as follows:

Additionally, when you use the Attack action on your turn to make an unarmed strike, you can use a bonus action to attack once with each type of unarmed strike you possess (IE. Bite, Claws, Horns, etc), to a maximum of 3 additional attacks. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of any of these additional attacks, unless that modifier is negative.

(You'll have to trust me that I've done the math on this, and it checks out.)

Finally, the 13th level ability would read as follows:

Extra Unnatural Attack
You gain an additional deformity from the following list:

Hooves. You gain muscular hooves terminated by hard ivory hooves. You can attack a creature with your hooves as an unarmed strike, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage on a hit. Additionally, if you move in a straight line for 10 feet immediately before attacking creature with your hooves, that creature must make a Strength saving throw or be knocked back 5 feet.
Pincers. You gain unearthly-looking pincers on a dedicated appendage. You can attack a creature with your pincers as an unarmed strike dealing 1d8 slashing damage.
Stinger. You gain an insectoid stinger. You can attack a creature with your pincers as an unarmed strike dealing 1d6 piercing damage. On a critical hit, you deal an additional 1d8 poison damage.

Finally, I agree with Submortimer's criticism of the capstone feature. Might I recommend reusing the Ipos feature Rend, but allowing its use every round?

Would anyone be opposed if I re-released the Twisted Fate with these changes (to save Zahn time editing?)

Scarce

2015-09-30, 08:48 PM

One more thing on Leraje:

For all intents and purposes, use the +Cha to damage from level 9 and onwards. The critical splash starting at level 15+.
I don't understand what you mean by that, because this isn't the case! You always get +Cha to damage and you get the explosive critical at 9th level.

This class does require some static damage increase on its arrows to set it apart from just using a bow otherwise, but without overshadowing the other vestiges, this is a challenge. Perhaps change Leraje's Quiver to:

Leraje's Quiver
While you are bound to Leraje, you can draw draw and fire ghostly ammunition from her endless, quasi-real quiver. You can ignore the Ammunition property when wielding a shortbow or longbow. Additionally, the target of your attacks with these arrows gains no benefit from cover, other than total cover.

Finally, when you use the Attack action on your turn to make an ranged weapon attack with a longbow or shortbow, you can use a bonus action to make an additional ranged attack with this weapon. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of any of these additional attacks, unless that modifier is negative.

Submortimer

2015-10-01, 01:40 AM

One more thing on Leraje:

I don't understand what you mean by that, because this isn't the case! You always get +Cha to damage and you get the explosive critical at 9th level.

This class does require some static damage increase on its arrows to set it apart from just using a bow otherwise, but without overshadowing the other vestiges, this is a challenge. Perhaps change Leraje's Quiver to:

Leraje's Quiver
While you are bound to Leraje, you can draw draw and fire ghostly ammunition from her endless, quasi-real quiver. You can ignore the Ammunition property when wielding a shortbow or longbow. Additionally, the target of your attacks with these arrows gains no benefit from cover, other than total cover.

Finally, when you use the Attack action on your turn to make an ranged weapon attack with a longbow or shortbow, you can use a bonus action to make an additional ranged attack with this weapon. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of any of these additional attacks, unless that modifier is negative.

The primary issue here is abuse. As it stands, a Sealed fate binder could potentially have +25 to his damage rolls on each arrow shot with little investment (+5 dex, +5 charisma, +5 charisma again, +10 sharpshooter). I think the bonus attack thing works marvelously.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-01, 03:58 AM

@Scarce by that I meant I did write the progression changes, but I haven't edited them on Leraje II.

@Submortimer. Using the standard ability score array, that would require ALL of your ability score improvements, as well as taking a race that adds to +3 between DEX and CHA. You it's possible, but you won't have any wiggle room, and you'll have a feat that only really helps you while you're bound to a 2nd level vestige.

EDIT: the Sealed fate's psychic damage could be changed just to apply to melee weapon attacks to prevent doubling CHA. why does the Sealed Fate add damage to ranged weapon attacks, anyway?:smallconfused:

Scarce

2015-10-01, 07:14 AM

@Submortimer. Using the standard ability score array, that would require ALL of your ability score improvements, as well as taking a race that adds to +3 between DEX and CHA. You it's possible, but you won't have any wiggle room, and you'll have a feat that only really helps you while you're bound to a 2nd level vestige.

Yeah, but I don't think that's the point. Leraje has a really uneven damage output compared to the other 2nd level vestiges, first being too low and then being far more powerful. Granted, this could all be my fault; all my vestiges could be too weak. However, the easier fix would simply be to smooth out the power of Leraje's Quiver, which is what I've done. If you think that the other vestiges need a power increase, it doesn't invalidate that the original ability had a really profound damage spike.

The_Doctor

2015-10-01, 09:37 AM

I understand that, but as a die-hard Cthulhu fan, everything else seems to line up. Let's see here:

Spines: Some Mythos creatures have those
Tentacles: Did you mean: Cthulhu
Claws: I'm fairly certain something in the Mythos has these.

Siphoning: Cthulhu
Impervious: Also Cthluhu
Dire:... Cthonians maybe? The gug, perhaps?
Unsettling: Pretty much a given for ANYTHING IN THE ENTIRE MYTHOS

My mind sees all those references and goes, "Aha! This must be a Cthulhu subclass!"

Scarce

2015-10-01, 09:51 AM

Tentacles: Did you mean: Cthulhu

You know, Cthulhu is not just about tentacles and underwater stuff. I've literally had someone propose that I put a fish race into my lovecraft pack, and I don't understand this misconception. Let me say this again: Cthulhu is not about tentacles.

Cthulhu is about a creature whose existence defies the very laws that you though defined the universe. To understand even one aspect of Cthulhu is to be an ant looking up at a man. The man is incomparably powerful, and intelligent on a level that is as high as it is alien to you. The only reason he hasn't crushed you is either because he hasn't noticed, or he doesn't care.

We're not doing Cthulhu because he's not the epitome of a genre of body horror. Look to the 1958 film The Fly for that.

The_Doctor

2015-10-01, 10:14 AM

Yeah, my brain was racking for stuff there. I understand that Cthulhu isn't just tentacles. Cthulhu does live underwater though, so there's that. However, Cthulhu aside, there are a metric ton of things in the mythos that involve tentacles in some way or another.

Fish race? In a lovecraft pack? My goodness.

EDIT: I'm going to be dropping out of this discussion for a while, as I'm getting fairly busy.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-01, 10:15 AM

My mind sees all those references and goes, "Aha! This must be a Cthulhu subclass!"

The fact that multiple options of the subclass tailor to the Mythos is purely coincidental. Coupled with choice vestiges, the abilities in the Twisted Fate are modeled after classic monstrous traits. They allow you to gradually build up to a variety of monstrous creatures or make your own. I don't think being innately frightening or something similar is something that needs to be mechanically supported, as you are already morphing into a something fearsome and inhuman in your own right.

@Scarce. I'm gonna trust you on these points, Scarce. To my knowledge most games don't really bother with harsh weather anyway. And they it seem to follow the latest format. Is there anything else on Leraje that you think needs fixing?

Prince Zahn

2015-10-01, 10:18 AM

EDIT: I'm going to be dropping out of this discussion for a while, as I'm getting fairly busy.

Keep in touch, you're welcome to come back when it gets more lenient on you to do so.

Scarce

2015-10-01, 03:01 PM

@Scarce. I'm gonna trust you on these points, Scarce. To my knowledge most games don't really bother with harsh weather anyway. And they it seem to follow the latest format. Is there anything else on Leraje that you think needs fixing?
I'm not sure about the amount of damage that the New Moon Arrows do, compared to the other vestiges, but again that could mean the others are too weak. It seems to me that, because you get 1d4 of them and this is a 1/short ability, which places it on the tier of a 1st level spell, the New Moon Arrows should be balanced similar to Hunter's Mark. Maybe use +1d8 damage?

Prince Zahn

2015-10-01, 03:10 PM

I'm not sure about the amount of damage that the New Moon Arrows do, compared to the other vestiges, but again that could mean the others are too weak. It seems to me that, because you get 1d4 of them and this is a 1/short ability, which places it on the tier of a 1st level spell, the New Moon Arrows should be balanced similar to Hunter's Mark. Maybe use +1d8 damage?
On this, I'd like to ask you to show me your numbers, please.
The New Moon arrows are actually Modeled after Moonbeam - a 2nd level spell for a 2nd level vestige. Instead of a maneuverable AoE Cylinder of 2d10 for a duration, you have 1d4 shots that deal 2d8 on a hit, and Moonbeam's secondary effects only if the enemy fails a save. this is intentional, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Tl;dr: Hunter's mark is not what I'm looking for. I want shining werewolf hunting moonbeam arrows, I really believe that Moonbeam arrows are fair.

EDIT: The duration of Hunter's Mark (Concentration/1 hour) means far more DPM/H Than 1~4 buffed arrow could compare to. There's a reason why only the ranger gets the spell you want Leraje to grant.

Submortimer

2015-10-01, 05:48 PM

@Submortimer. Using the standard ability score array, that would require ALL of your ability score improvements, as well as taking a race that adds to +3 between DEX and CHA. You it's possible, but you won't have any wiggle room, and you'll have a feat that only really helps you while you're bound to a 2nd level vestige.

EDIT: the Sealed fate's psychic damage could be changed just to apply to melee weapon attacks to prevent doubling CHA. why does the Sealed Fate add damage to ranged weapon attacks, anyway?:smallconfused:

So, a half elf :smallsmile:

You're right, it would take a lot of focus, but it's a worthwhile focus. I mostly allowed ranged attacks into that to encourage a Sealed Fate binder to take Leraje as your patron. If you guys feel like we should change it to melee only and keep the +cha to leraje, I'm okay with that.

Scarce

2015-10-01, 07:59 PM

On this, I'd like to ask you to show me your numbers, please.
The New Moon arrows are actually Modeled after Moonbeam - a 2nd level spell for a 2nd level vestige.
This is less of a math thing and more of a design principle thing. Typically, for a X level vestige, I try to give them a 1/long rest X level spell (or equivalent ability) and a 1/short rest X-1 or X-2 spell (or equivalent ability.) Finally, acceptable at-will abilities should have power in the X/2 range. Now, while these are all basically guidelines, I've been careful to keep the '1/long rest X level spell' rule pretty solid, as it enforces that the most powerful features of the class are in line with the spell power curve, and that they should be used sparingly.

Therefore, the problem is not '2d8 damage', it's 'X level per short'. If you insist on math:

Comparing to Moon Beam isn't terribly useful, since it's an AoE and the Moon Arrows target 1 creature. Thankfully, the DMG tells us that a 2nd level spell should deal 3d10 (17) damage to 1 creature. The moon arrows fired from a longbow are 3d8+Dex (14) and you can fire them on an average of 3 rounds in a row. So this feels rather more powerful than a 2nd level ability by comparing it to a DMG spell. Even if you disagree with me and want to keep the damage at the same level, the feature should be limited to once per long rest to be consistent within the design of the class.

(Also of note: I don't know what I should compare this feature to which augments damage round-after-round, other than Hunter's Mark. Additionally, Hunter's Mark fits the 'Level X-1' guideline as a 1st level spell, and thus can be awarded as a 1/short feature. This is what guided my reasoning before.)

EDIT: I've been buildtesting level 3 Binders, but my conclusions are going to be incomplete until Warped Fate, Amon, and Leraje are capped off. Some observations:
@Haagneti: Probably needs another feature to maker her worth anyone's time. I'm not sure if I should go for some 1/long damage ability, or a constant attack roll buff.
@Malphas: Seems like he needs some once per short stealth ability. Ideas?
@Occult Fate: Additional vestige feature feels pretty powerful compared to the other vestiges. You can get martial weapon proficiencies, shields, and more AC by going with Sealed Fate, but you get way more than that by binding additional vestiges. That, combined with Empty Vessel makes me think that this is going to be one powerful subclass.

Submortimer, would you mind if I tried my hand at the Occult Fate? The extra vestige thing was my idea, and it totally didn't work out, but I feel like if I play with the subclass as a whole I might be able to get it to work.

Submortimer

2015-10-02, 02:41 AM

@Occult Fate: Additional vestige feature feels pretty powerful compared to the other vestiges. You can get martial weapon proficiencies, shields, and more AC by going with Sealed Fate, but you get way more than that by binding additional vestiges. That, combined with Empty Vessel makes me think that this is going to be one powerful subclass.

Submortimer, would you mind if I tried my hand at the Occult Fate? The extra vestige thing was my idea, and it totally didn't work out, but I feel like if I play with the subclass as a whole I might be able to get it to work.

Sure, I'm down with it. The only bit I'm pretty hard up about keeping is some form of Empty Vessel. I like it as it is, but at the very least I'd like the first part of the ability to stay.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-02, 04:55 AM

This is less of a math thing and more of a design principle thing. Typically, for a X level vestige, I try to give them a 1/long rest X level spell (or equivalent ability) and a 1/short rest X-1 or X-2 spell (or equivalent ability.) Finally, acceptable at-will abilities should have power in the X/2 range. Now, while these are all basically guidelines, I've been careful to keep the '1/long rest X level spell' rule pretty solid, as it enforces that the most powerful features of the class are in line with the spell power curve, and that they should be used sparingly.

Therefore, the problem is not '2d8 damage', it's 'X level per short'. If you insist on math:

Comparing to Moon Beam isn't terribly useful, since it's an AoE and the Moon Arrows target 1 creature. Thankfully, the DMG tells us that a 2nd level spell should deal 3d10 (17) damage to 1 creature. The moon arrows fired from a longbow are 3d8+Dex (14) and you can fire them on an average of 3 rounds in a row. So this feels rather more powerful than a 2nd level ability by comparing it to a DMG spell. Even if you disagree with me and want to keep the damage at the same level, the feature should be limited to once per long rest to be consistent within the design of the class. the idea that it is more powerful would be true if moonbeam was an intantaneous effect, but it has a duration of 1 minute. Meaning it can also deal deal that damage for the entire combat and pursue enemies for the duration.
But alright, we can change it to a long rest, though I fear that would impact the vestige in the long run.

(Also of note: I don't know what I should compare this feature to which augments damage round-after-round, other than Hunter's Mark. Additionally, Hunter's Mark fits the 'Level X-1' guideline as a 1st level spell, and thus can be awarded as a 1/short feature. This is what guided my reasoning before.) I understand what you are saying, and I'm not saying you are in the wrong. Though my vision of Leraje goes preferably without the infamous ranger Spell.

@Scarce: Have you considered a second use of invisibiility?
I think the problem could have been solved if @Malphas was a 3rd Level vestige. Invisibility would work 2/Short test and you could throw in pass without trace, Silence or nondetection, or something else as a long rest powered feature. That might mean moving another vestige to 2nd level, however.

@Occult Fate might not be as big an issue if you got maybe 1 feature from a vestige you didn't bind. Though I'd limit it to something that requires a rest. Perhaps you could try something along those lines?

For @Haagenti, I'd suggest a 1/long rest cold damage ability, due to her affinity with frost giants modelling her identity.

Submortimer

2015-10-02, 08:20 AM

WRT this moon arrows issue, let's look at the most comparable spell: Flame Arrows.

3rd level, deals an extra 1d6 fire damage per arrow, affects 12 rounds of ammunition.

Knowing that Leraje is a 2nd level vestige, this is a useful metric for determining if that ability is too strong. (Which I think it might be). This does, at most, 12d6 bonus damage, over a comparatively long period of time (at most, 3d6 a round). Moon arrows should not do more DPR than this ability.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-03, 04:30 AM

Also, one more (because two posts in a row isn't enough), I decided to retool Primus. Now, the Doctor's rendition wasn't an bad one by any means, in fact it was quite faithful to the original, but I wasn't a fan of the mechanics. They just didn't meld well with 5e. I also rewrote the legend for brevity. Here's my take:

Primus
The One and Prime
2nd Level Vestige

The plane of ultimate law, Mechanus, has existed as long as the multiverse. Its denizens are the geometrical modrons, who possess a massive hierarchy headed by the perfect embodiment of law, Primus. All commands for all modrons filter down from Primus, and so doing, all modrons work toward perfecting the order of the universe.

But the Primus is not eternal. Should any denizen of Mechanus be slain or disobey orders, he is replaced by one of his subordinates, and a new modron is created to fulfill the new vacancy; the Primus is no different.

When the great demon lord Orcus was slain, a shadow named Tenebrous rose in his wake, setting off a chain of events that would nearly destroy the entire multiverse, beginning with Mechanus. The unholy Shadow became a usurper when it came to the Plane of Law and slayed the Primus with the Last Word. Enacting the greatest upheaval the universe has ever known, the Shadow then began The Great Modron March to seek something dear to it.

When at last the shadow had risen again as the demon lord, the Secondus replaced Primus, and the Plane of Law was whole again. Yet the spirit of the old Primus persists, without worship and without dictation or decree, perusing law, even through nonexistance.

When you make a poor pact with Primus, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:

Ideal: There is nothing higher than the Law.

Personality Trait: I am ruthlessly efficient, and evaluate all activities with an eye towards my ultimate goals, brooking no frivolity or distraction.

It might sound weird, not knowing Primus that well personally, my immediate association to this vestige was the Judge I remember from my old Final Fantasy Tactics A2 game - he arrives upon the battlefield and places new rules for for the combatants to abide by upon the battlefield, lest they seal their fate.

Unyielding Code
While bound to Primus, you are immune to being charmed. I guess I can recognize the importance of this. Charmed is a debuff available from low-levels, but it can be a very annoying one.

Lawful Strike
When you use the Attack action to make a single melee attack, you can deal an additional 1d6 force damage on a hit. I'd imagine this was in the original Primus?
I can't say it is a favorite of mine, not because it isn't simple and elegant, and suitable for the non-martial subclassed binders, but because I have a different picture than everyone else. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my (somewhat limited) understanding of the planes of Alignments, the original Primus was THE unquestionable lord of absolute law, who's word was absolute. this ability gives me a small-time paladin-y feel that seems out of place.:smallconfused:

Archive of Law
You have advantage on any Intelligence check made pertaining to laws or written agreements. Additionally, as an action, you can question Primus as to whether or not an action is in accordance with Divine Law, the ultimate structure of the universe. Divine Law does not always correspond with any known written set of law, and may itself be beyond mortal comprehension.

Primus's Decree
You can cast the spell command without using a spell slot. After casting this spell, you must complete a short or long rest before casting it again.

Divine Structure
As an reaction when a creature you can see within 60 feet performs an action, you can force that creature to make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, that creature must perform that action again instead of the next action it takes, and do so in the same way and with the same target, if applicable. After using this ability, you must complete a long rest before using it again. these are my favorites among this vestige's features, for the reasons mentioned above. Archive of Law is a pretty powerful ability for moral conundrums, or binders who just want to do the right thing. Primus's Decree and Divine Structure are entirely about control, you force limitations and new order on your enemies, making them fight the way you want them to fight. these are the kinds of abilities I picture should belong to one with the god of ultimate law by his side.

OVERALL
on the grand scheme of things, this vestige is alright, though archive of Law is a quite powerful for a ribbon at this level (it is essentially unlimited Commune towards Primus :smalleek:). In my most humble opinion, I would rather see this vestige pumped up into crowd controller of divine authority than nerfed into a small-time cleric/Paladin/warlord.

----------------------------------
yay! one more thing to cross off the to-do list!

Prince Zahn

2015-10-03, 10:55 AM

made some updates all around today...except in the vestige Codex like I should have. xD Sorry!
But today thus far WAS productive! take a look:

Reworded some details in the chassis/Original post
fixed up the table of contents, it should be cleaner now
Submortimer's subclasses and all those aditional Augmented Pacts were finally added with the latest details I could find. send me a message if I missed anything!
Old subclasses have been given their new names.
Threw in my 2 cents on Primus while going through him, one more off the list!
Centered the supplemental information in the 4th post
Replaced an obscene amount of "Mays" in rule wording with "Cans", it's a little something that struck me odd when looking at the PHB.
Worked on (what I think is-) a presentable format for vestiges in the Vestige Codex. Hopefully it should be more aesthetically pleasing on a mobile device, but I can not say since I have lower standards of the mobile site and make due with it anyway.
Here's a minor detail, but now it's official: new terminology will be added to the Glossary: modeled after how Grappling is refered to in the PHB; the class will use the term Binding. (i.e. "Binding with a vestige"; "I attempt to Bind (with) Focalor") is going to be the canon term for the action of forming a pact with a vestige (included inside the term is the Charisma check made in the process). Bound, like in "While you are bound to X" will officially refer to a vestige the Binder is currently usihg. Good Pact and Poor Pact will also added as the potential outcomes when Binding, even though we've been using these terms since before the flood. :smalltongue:

Submortimer

2015-10-03, 12:05 PM

Zahn, great job on the updates. I'm glad you liked my suggestion for the Occult set: it maintains the feel that we were going for while making the overall class a bit less complicated.

On to notes.

- I don't see too much of a problem adding in stuff from UA, as it is published WotC material (even if it's not in a book yet). That being said, you can pull it if you feel strongly about it.
- Patron's Skill pact augment doesn't need a minimum level: most classes get Extra Attack at 5th, and augments don't come online till 5th anyways.
- The initial text for Eldritch Fate is old. Eldritch Fate may only choose Sorcerer spells.
- I'll send you a PM with the code for the Eldritch Fate tables (if I can figure out how to do that)
- The "High level spell slot" shenanigans for Eldritch fate is by design. It deliberately allows you to break the norm, with the risks for doing so stated openly.
- Monsterous Flurry will only exist if Unnatural attack's last bit is removed, otherwise it is redundant.

I think that's it for now. Occult Fate is going to change significantly, so criticism about that will be moot until Scare is done reworking it

Prince Zahn

2015-10-03, 01:47 PM

Zahn, great job on the updates. I'm glad you liked my suggestion for the Occult set: it maintains the feel that we were going for while making the overall class a bit less complicated. I'm not entirely sure whether it simplifies anything about the class or not, but it really does feel like the right thing to do. We might decide one day decide to model a pact magic feat after Magic Initiate, and that would likely begin with proficiency with the Occult set.
Is there anything you feel should be added to the Occult set or did I cover enough bases?

On to notes.

- I don't see too much of a problem adding in stuff from UA, as it is published WotC material (even if it's not in a book yet). That being said, you can pull it if you feel strongly about it. The only issue is that it UA material is not the final say that something is canon yet, it's closer to previews or playtest drafts than it is to a finished product. The final version will not necessarily resemble the UA version, so when WotC publishes the final version in a game resource, and it's not crazy unstable or anything, I'd feel much more at ease with it. Same goes for modern magic, psionics and anything else we might want to apply in the Binder.

- Patron's Skill pact augment doesn't need a minimum level: most classes get Extra Attack at 5th, and augments don't come online till 5th anyways. personally I'm not sure if extra attack is best for level 5 or 6. But unless level 5 proves to be a massive power spike, I don't see a major issue in putting that aside.

- The initial text for Eldritch Fate is old. Eldritch Fate may only choose Sorcerer spells.
- I'll send you a PM with the code for the Eldritch Fate tables (if I can figure out how to do that)that is fine with me.:smallsmile: as far as I'm concerned you could give him the wizard spell list, the other concern is selecting 2 schools of magic to focus on. We do have a format to keep.

- The "High level spell slot" shenanigans for Eldritch fate is by design. It deliberately allows you to break the norm, with the risks for doing so stated openly. I don't think a Wild Magic roll is a good counterbalance getting an 8th level spell slot from a subclass.

- Monsterous Flurry will only exist if Unnatural attack's last bit is removed, otherwise it is redundant. which one do you think should stay?

I think that's it for now. Occult Fate is going to change significantly, so criticism about that will be moot until Scarce is done reworking it that'll be fine. I'll update it when the time comes. If you had to use an empty vessel, I'd limit it to something more streamlined, like only with humanoids and animals, or remove the but about corpses. And as previously stated, I am going to need the statblock template(s) for your vessels. I think that little extra effort will make for the simplest option for us to balance.

Submortimer

2015-10-03, 04:23 PM

I'm not entirely sure whether it simplifies anything about the class or not, but it really does feel like the right thing to do. We might decide one day decide to model a pact magic feat after Magic Initiate, and that would likely begin with proficiency with the Occult set.
Is there anything you feel should be added to the Occult set or did I cover enough bases?

I think it's great as is. I could see a pact magic feat too.

The only issue is that it UA material is not the final say that something is canon yet, it's closer to previews or playtest drafts than it is to a finished product. The final version will not necessarily resemble the UA version, so when WotC publishes the final version in a game resource, and it's not crazy unstable or anything, I'd feel much more at ease with it. Same goes for modern magic, psionics and anything else we might want to apply in the Binder.

That's a good point. You can remove it for now, it might very well come out with the Sword Coast guide in Nov., and we can add it back in then.

I don't think a Wild Magic roll is a good counterbalance getting an 8th level spell slot from a subclass.

Well, it's more than that. You have to bind orthos, using up half your binder levels for the day, then sacrifice him (losing that power), then make the check, and if you fail the spell fizzles AND you roll on the Wild Magic table, all to get an 8th level SLOT, not and 8th level SPELL. In practice, I don't see this getting used for high level shenanigans all thst often, just due to the cost vs. Benefit.

which one do you think should stay?

Personally, the augment.

that'll be fine. I'll update it when the time comes. If you had to use an empty vessel, I'd limit it to something more streamlined, like only with humanoids and animals, or remove the but about corpses. And as previously stated, I am going to need the statblock template(s) for your vessels. I think that little extra effort will make for the simplest option for us to balance.

I thought I already did limit it to humanoids or animals. Huh.

In any case, that's why I put the bit in there about "its a normal creature of it's type". If you Empty Vessel a dead wolf, it's not an undead wolf, its just a wolf per the MM with a vestige attached. If you empty vessel a dead human, they become a normal, 1 HD human with no class levels and a vestige attached. If you empty vessel a WILLING subject, it's as if that subject bound the vestige themselves.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-03, 05:16 PM

In practice, I don't see this getting used for high level shenanigans all thst often, just due to the cost vs. Benefit. So If it's not going to get used, and cost will likely deter players from risking it, why bother with it in the first place? By the same token, What is stopping a Binder from using all of the 9th level vestige's long rest features and then squeeze an 8th level spell slot too when his vestige isn't as useful?:smallconfused: it might not sound to you like much, but it's a pretty big deal.

I thought I already did limit it to humanoids or animals. Huh.

In any case, that's why I put the bit in there about "its a normal creature of it's type". If you Empty Vessel a dead wolf, it's not an undead wolf, its just a wolf per the MM with a vestige attached. If you empty vessel a dead human, they become a normal, 1 HD human with no class levels and a vestige attached. If you empty vessel a WILLING subject, it's as if that subject bound the vestige themselves.
I would at least place a hard CR cap and size limit. The way you are suggesting it, it demands a lot of book keeping and encourages an Occult Fate binder to trap two or three elephants and imbue them with their best vestige's soul. Boom - suddenly you got two elephants bound to Savnok and Dahlver-Nar/Aym wreaking havoc on the battlefield. If you have trouble getting them to work for you, you can still bind Eurynome because she makes animals friendly towards you. It's really not that hard for an Occult Fate Binder too pull all of this off. :smallconfused:

Scarce

2015-10-04, 01:32 AM

@Zahn: I'm tempted to take your advice and move Malphas up to level 3, moving down Primus in his place. However, I think I'll try to patch things as-is (far less in the way of rebalancing efforts, that way.)

@Primus: Yeah I kinda stumbled on the mechanics of making Primus feel a little more cleric-y (as Lawful Strike, which was my own addition, stole it's groove from the cleric's Divine Strike), but ultimately, I liked to mechanic and let it stay. It gives single-hit binders a reason to attack, and it's pretty concise. I like the idea of making Primus a control binder, but this raises the problem of actually finding level-appropriate spells which fit the theme, which is where I hit the stumbling block.

Also do you really think Archive of Law is that powerful? Primus's Diving Law doesn't mean anything, since it's beyond human comprehension. Also, since this Primus isn't in charge of Mechanus, he might have a different interpretation of the way the Gears of Fate are intended to turn.

@Malphas and Haagenti: These have been updated (see original posts.) Malphas has a 1/short cunning action, and Haagenti has a 1/long cold AoE.

@Codex. Zahn, I would only embed the vestiges which are unlikely to be changed (Alpha testing, and so forth), to minimize the amount of editing you have to do later on. After all, I do small edits on my vestiges all the time, and I don't expect you to keep track of them. EDIT: Also, great job on the Codex so far (I just don't want the fact that you're the only one updating them to devour your time, especially on my behalf.)

Also, I'm going to re-submit the idea that we should get away from a vestige's sign and manifestation. These are paragraphs atop paragraphs of text which add no gameplay, and serve to dilute the actual mechanics an to drive off new players. Worse, they're in the top block of every vestige, which should include vital information for a vestige's use, like it's save DC and its level, but instead has literally paragraphs of fluff. And the manifestation isn't even flavor that matters all day; it's like each spell in the player's handbook including a sentence of two about what a wizard sees when he prepares it.

Like, does it matter that Amon looks like a black wolf with a goat head? Do I need a description for Ronove's appearance that is longer than almost all of her features? After I'm binding like 3 vestiges, am I expected to keep track of the fact that Naberious makes my voice deepen? I am a firm believer that you should speak through mechanics; it is a game, after all. We have the Legend section for each vestige to be expository, but we don't need the rest of this to breathe life into the vestiges.

Submortimer

2015-10-04, 09:03 AM

Also, I'm going to re-submit the idea that we should get away from a vestige's sign and manifestation. These are paragraphs atop paragraphs of text which add no gameplay, and serve to dilute the actual mechanics an to drive off new players. Worse, they're in the top block of every vestige, which should include vital information for a vestige's use, like it's save DC and its level, but instead has literally paragraphs of fluff. And the manifestation isn't even flavor that matters all day; it's like each spell in the player's handbook including a sentence of two about what a wizard sees when he prepares it.

Like, does it matter that Amon looks like a black wolf with a goat head? Do I need a description for Ronove's appearance that is longer than almost all of her features? After I'm binding like 3 vestiges, am I expected to keep track of the fact that Naberious makes my voice deepen? I am a firm believer that you should speak through mechanics; it is a game, after all. We have the Legend section for each vestige to be expository, but we don't need the rest of this to breathe life into the vestiges.

Man, I don't know how to feel about this. On one side, I agree with you: 5e classes are super light on fluff, especially specifics: heck, the cleric dosen't even really talk about specific gods, that stuff is kept in the back of the book.

On the other hand, the binder is kinda all about specific fluff: If you strip out the manifestations, then binding has little more pretense than just casting a spell (which maybe it doesn't anyways, just a feeling).
Signs, too, are kind of a central part about BEING a binder: that sharing your body with these unknowable beings can warp you in ways you didn't expect.

IMO, if you wanna get rid of something, get rid of manifestations, or just make them part of the Legend block. Getting rid of Signs, I feel, would be like cutting off a big toe: still able to operate, but noticably missing.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-04, 10:28 AM

I'd like to address these in reverse order:

I'm going to re-submit the idea that we should get away from a vestige's sign and manifestation. These are paragraphs atop paragraphs of text which add no gameplay, and serve to dilute the actual mechanics an to drive off new players. Worse, they're in the top block of every vestige, which should include vital information for a vestige's use, like it's save DC and its level, but instead has literally paragraphs of fluff. And the manifestation isn't even flavor that matters all day; it's like each spell in the player's handbook including a sentence of two about what a wizard sees when he prepares it.

Like, does it matter that Amon looks like a black wolf with a goat head? Do I need a description for Ronove's appearance that is longer than almost all of her features? After I'm binding like 3 vestiges, am I expected to keep track of the fact that Naberious makes my voice deepen? I am a firm believer that you should speak through mechanics; it is a game, after all. We have the Legend section for each vestige to be expository, but we don't need the rest of this to breathe life into the vestiges.As I mentioned before, I would like manifestations. they are important to me. but they need to be sized down to 1 or 2 sentences. no more than that. If it helps, we could move Sign and Manifestation to the PACT INFORMATION section alongside influence.

@Codex. Zahn, I would only embed the vestiges which are unlikely to be changed (Alpha testing, and so forth), to minimize the amount of editing you have to do later on. After all, I do small edits on my vestiges all the time, and I don't expect you to keep track of them. This might sound a little odd, but what vestiges are considered "Alpha" anymore? Numerous vestiges we considered to be well approved turned out to need major design changes when the numbers were finally crunched.:smallconfused: I figure the close examinations you are doing now is "Alpha". I think once everything is updated, and everything is cleaned up, it would make referencing and keeping track a lot easier.

EDIT: Also, great job on the Codex so far (I just don't want the fact that you're the only one updating them to devour your time, especially on my behalf.)Thanks! I'm glad you like how the new codex is shaping up! if I run out of room, I might have to ask some of you to delete posts so I half a clean streak of posts to work with.
As the list on page...(I don't remember, but I always find it!) suggests, I procrastinated on a LOT of things these last few weeks. we are also working on a faster pace than we used to, so I did not quite see how all of my commitments stacked up:smallredface: mea culpa on that.

It might sound a little immodest of me, but I'm actually quite happy with all of the authority I have.:smallsmile: keeping the machine maintained to suit everybody's needs, installing new "patches":smalltongue:. reviewing new parts as they come into the workshop. this class, and this edition, is my passion - pages are now popping out of my PHB after a year of constantly looking up how I can make the Binder better than he already is, and it's worth it. I need this sort of control over the updates, because that way I can count on updates to happen. and while I can't force all of my finicky standard on you guys, I need to do these long revisions - my OCD demands it, so that things in the thread will look the way I want them to. having the power to mend all of these gritty, petty and finicky details is important to my overall satisfaction with the project.:smallsmile:

@Malphas and Haagenti: These have been updated (see original posts.) Malphas has a 1/short cunning action, and Haagenti has a 1/long cold AoE.sounds cool. I'll add the new details.

Also do you really think Archive of Law is that powerful? Primus's Divine Law doesn't mean anything, since it's beyond human comprehension. Also, since this Primus isn't in charge of Mechanus, he might have a different interpretation of the way the Gears of Fate are intended to turn.How I picture this being used at the table in practice, is equivalent to the Binder's Player asking his DM if he's doing the right thing whenever it is convenient for him to know. even it is not logical to one's own ethics, this is not a question a DM should ever have to answer his players on a regular basis, especially not to a group of low level adventurers.
An even worse stiuation for me to envision with it is that when a player asks Primus, the DM would exploit that to convince the player to behave how S/HE thinks her players should behave, or how the DM thinks the story should continue. I've dealt with DMs who do this kind of conditioning on their players to embrace less than stellar habits, I don't imagine that is a far-fetched situation.

@Primus: Yeah I kinda stumbled on the mechanics of making Primus feel a little more cleric-y (as Lawful Strike, which was my own addition, stole it's groove from the cleric's Divine Strike), but ultimately, I liked to mechanic and let it stay. It gives single-hit binders a reason to attack, and it's pretty concise. I like the idea of making Primus a control binder, but this raises the problem of actually finding level-appropriate spells which fit the theme, which is where I hit the stumbling block.I would rather Primus did not feal Cleric-y. I have trouble picturing Primus as anything other than some cosmic judge. Now If we were to make Primus more powerful, say, 5th level, or something, we would have a lot more freedom than spells. we could have this sort of ability where you choose 1 from a limited range of commands or rules to affect an area (i.e creatures get 1 less attack from the attack action, or spells of a particular school can not be cast here, or creatures must spend all of their movement when they start their turn within the area, etc) that would last up to concentration: 1 minute. or a custom-made suggestion that forbids a target(or targets) to undertake a certain action on a failed save. there are all sorts of things we could do with this.:smallsmile:

@Zahn: I'm tempted to take your advice and move Malphas up to level 3, moving down Primus in his place. However, I think I'll try to patch things as-is (far less in the way of rebalancing efforts, that way.) See how it works, if it doesn't, consider making upping Malphas to 3rd level vestige.:smallsmile:

Prince Zahn

2015-10-04, 11:36 AM

On the other hand, the binder is kinda all about specific fluff: If you strip out the manifestations, then binding has little more pretense than just casting a spell (which maybe it doesn't anyways, just a feeling).
Signs, too, are kind of a central part about BEING a binder: that sharing your body with these unknowable beings that can warp you in ways you didn't expect. this. the fluff is a central selling point to the binder. it's what drawn us into the class in the , more than any 5 round cooldown ability.

[...]and Haagenti has a 1/long cold AoE. for how long is the lowered speed? if it's just for 1 round, maybe we ought to halve movement? it shouldn't be a great issue 1/long rest. but what do you guys think?

Prince Zahn

2015-10-04, 12:51 PM

My apologies for the Triple post...

I have a question for you guys, would any of you like to take on a new draft of Paimon's mechanics?

I've tried multiple times to make something fun and innovative, and while I hit home before in terms of the feel of it, we can not deny the original was too strong.
further attempts have been relatively fruitless for me, so I want to see maybe someone else can do it better.

My design goals with Paimon:

3rd level vestige
balanced, desireable option for martial builds
no Dex bonus. EVAR.
puts focus on wielding finesse weapon(s) and dancing/rolling a performance check, maybe balance/acrobatics
puts an fun twist on how melee combat is traditionally fought
makes the Binder a competent ballroom dancer.

You can even work together on it if it helps you guys. the rest is optional, unless you think you could make the fluff (Manifestation/Legend/Pact Information) any briefer. I'm quite happy with the influence as it is, though. :smalltongue:

Scarce

2015-10-04, 02:01 PM

As I mentioned before, I would like manifestations. they are important to me. but they need to be sized down to 1 or 2 sentences. no more than that. If it helps, we could move Sign and Manifestation to the PACT INFORMATION section alongside influence.

That's a pretty great solution, actually. After all, the manifestation, sign, and influence are all related to the act of Binding, but aren't mechanically necessary. (While I enjoy a good bit of roleplay, I've had people at my table that are present strictly for the hack and slay aspects of d&d - and that's fine. The Binder presents unique flavor, to be sure, but it should not be so imposing as to make it more difficult to play or understand, especially for those people who simply skim the flavor text.)

This might sound a little odd, but what vestiges are considered "Alpha" anymore? Numerous vestiges we considered to be well approved turned out to need major design changes when the numbers were finally crunched.:smallconfused: I figure the close examinations you are doing now is "Alpha". I think once everything is updated, and everything is cleaned up, it would make referencing and keeping track a lot easier.

We'll I've been "buildtesting" level-by-level, trying to compare the power level of the vestiges themselves, and attempting to probe for the class's power against different classes by actually building skeleton characters. I've been placing this class as one with slightly less power than the others when I have a direct point of comparison, to compensate for its immense flexibility. With that said, level 1 Vestiges have been buildtested, and I trust that that are all in an acceptable range of power. It up to playtesting to figure out the degree to which I am wrong.

I'm almost done with looking at level 2 (I forgot about Aym!!), but buildtesting will take longer as I have to take into account the subclasses we have ready at this moment, and the interactions between them and the vestiges.

How I picture this being used at the table in practice, is equivalent to the Binder's Player asking his DM if he's doing the right thing whenever it is convenient for him to know. even it is not logical to one's own ethics, this is not a question a DM should ever have to answer his players on a regular basis, especially not to a group of low level adventurers.
An even worse stiuation for me to envision with it is that when a player asks Primus, the DM would exploit that to convince the player to behave how S/HE thinks her players should behave, or how the DM thinks the story should continue. I've dealt with DMs who do this kind of conditioning on their players to embrace less than stellar habits, I don't imagine that is a far-fetched situation.

I might rewrite the part about Divine Law to make it seem far more ribbon-worthy. I want any sensible DM to just roll a die and treat it randomly, but not explicitly say to do so in the feature description so I don't destroy the rolyplay fun that could be had with it.

I would rather Primus did not feal Cleric-y. I have trouble picturing Primus as anything other than some cosmic judge. Now If we were to make Primus more powerful, say, 5th level, or something, we would have a lot more freedom than spells. we could have this sort of ability where you choose 1 from a limited range of commands or rules to affect an area (i.e creatures get 1 less attack from the attack action, or spells of a particular school can not be cast here, or creatures must spend all of their movement when they start their turn within the area, etc) that would last up to concentration: 1 minute. or a custom-made suggestion that forbids a target(or targets) to undertake a certain action on a failed save. there are all sorts of things we could do with this.:smallsmile:

I'll consider moving him up a few levels once I move onto build-testing level 3 vestiges. The main problem with writing Primus is giving him passive features which fit within the abstract theme of Law (once per short and once per long aren't that bad.) Like I said, I'm reasonably happy with Lawful Strike, because it feels like judgement or punishment of laws to me, not the dictating of them, but I can see why it rubs you the wrong way. I'll keep this in mind when I get to level 3.

Finally, bits and pieces:
- We FORGOT about Shax! This means we have 6 2nd level vestiges! (Though, now that I'm looking at Shax, it seems like she should really be a 1st level vestige. If you're cool with that, I'll give her a ribbon feature and introduce her as a 1st level vestige.)
- Haagenti's Ire of Frost slows creatures for 1 minute. I've edited that into my original post.
- Malphas's Cunning step has been merged with a new ability into Turnfeather's Skill.
- I feel like Naberius's Persuasive words should let you cast charm person instead of command.
- Italicizing the Legends in the Codex makes them hard to read.
- The only subclasses I can build-test are Sealed Fate and Eldritch Fate, since the last buildtest revealed Occult Fate was in need of rebalancing. I'm not sure I want to proceed until at least Warped Fate is done.

EDIT: Aym is awesome and fits right in with the other vestiges. No changes necessary from what I can see, except Halo of Fire is a little ambiguous. How long does the Halo last? It seems to me that it should be until the beginning of your next turn, since it can be triggered with a bonus action. (Also, a note on semantics, you need only to say that 'While your halo is active, you can make a spell attack against a creature you can touch, dealing 1d10 fire damage on a hit.'

Submortimer

2015-10-04, 02:24 PM

EDIT: Aym is awesome and fits right in with the other vestiges. No changes necessary from what I can see, except Halo of Fire is a little ambiguous. How long does the Halo last? It seems to me that it should be until the beginning of your next turn, since it can be triggered with a bonus action. (Also, a note on semantics, you need only to say that 'While your halo is active, you can make a spell attack against a creature you can touch, dealing 1d10 fire damage on a hit.'

The intent is that it remains on till turned off, via a bonus action, but whatever you think is appropriate. THe wording can be changed too,m that does sound simpler.

We also forgot Andromalius. I'll give him a shot as an 8th level vestige, since we currently only have ONE of those.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-04, 02:33 PM

We also forgot Andromalius. I'll give him a shot as an 8th level vestige, since we currently only have ONE of those.
:smalleek:
I remember seeing at least 1 other Binder homebrew thread give him an ability that essentially meant independent access to magic items. know that this is my greatest fear with a vestige like Andromalius, or even Karsus. do what you need to do to make a kick-butt vestige, just don't ever do that, not in 5e... please.

Submortimer

2015-10-04, 02:54 PM

Here's my attempt at Paimon

Paimon
The Dancer
3rd Level vestige
DC: 13
Seal:

Sign: One side of your mouth becomes wider than the other, as though it were being stretched or pulled. That side of your mouth has a tendency to remain slightly open, causing you to drool.

Manifestation: Paimon appears in a whirl, his form spinning like a top on an arm that ends in a metal blade instead of a forearm and hand. He turns counterclockwise so rapidly that his summoner can make little sense of what he sees. Paimon quickly switches the arm on which he spins with a hop, and then he switches to a leg, which also ends in a blade rather than an ankle and foot. With each switch, Paimon slows, until at last he stands on one leg before his summoner, balancing within the seal on its daggerlike point. Paimon’s almost featureless gray body has a dancer’s physique. His face is stretched to disfi gurement around the right side of his head, and no ears are visible. Paimon speaks in a garbled voice from his twisted mouth while hopping from appendage to appendage, making small turns as though he is impatient to be whirling again.

PROFICIENCIES
While Bound to Paimon, you gain proficiency in Rapiers and Short swords.

Dancer's Grace
You may add half your proficiency bonus to any Dexterity-based skill checks you do not already add your proficiency bonus to.

Lord of the Dance
You gain advantage on all dance-based Dexterity (Perform) checks and/or Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks made while dancing.

Dance of Death
Paimon grants you the ability to dance gracefully though combat. You may use your bonus action to begin dancing by making a Dexterity (Perform) check, DC 15. Your dance lasts until the beginning of your next turn. While dancing, once per round you may deal an additional 1d8 slashing or piercing damage when you hit with a melee attack. This increases to 2d8 damage at level 11.

Dancer's Reflexes
While dancing, you do not provoke Opportunity Attacks from creatures that you attack.

Masterful Footwork
While dancing, as a reaction, you may make a Dexterity (Perform) check to avoid a attack made against you, with a DC equal to the attack roll. Once you use this ability, you may not do so again until you have completed a Short or Long rest.

Dancer's Celerity
You gain a bust of graceful speed. You may caste Haste without using a spell slot. Once you do so, you must take a long rest before you can do so again.

PACT INFORMATION:
Most binders know the Dancer’s tragic story, although none can be certain of its origin. An infamous lothario, Paimon delighted in seducing noblewomen with his dancing and besting their suitors with his swordplay. He eventually crossed paths and swords with a particularly jealous and cruel fellow, sometimes identifi ed as a human and other times as an elf. After Paimon had humiliated this nobleman in front of his peers on several occasions, the fellow enlisted some other aggrieved suitors to capture Paimon and cut off his sword hand. Paimon was not so easily defeated. When he recovered, he returned to court wearing a bejeweled golden hand that he could replace with a rapier blade. Exhibiting tremendous aplomb, Paimon again set his rivals on their heels, and he even fought and defeated the man who had wronged him. Paimon spared his adversary’s life only because he was interrupted by a request to dance by the object of both their affections. In response to this further humiliation, Paimon’s foe again had him captured, but this time the man’s thirst for revenge was insatiable. He and his cohorts cut off all of Paimon’s limbs and replaced them with sword blades, jeering at him all the while and daring him to return to court again. Then they left Paimon to die while they celebrated their victory.

At the next royal ball, Paimon’s foe and his coconspirators smirked at every mention of their enemy’s name and winked at one another when others wondered aloud where the charming rake might be. Then a dark fi gure appeared among the dancers. Impossibly tall and shrouded head to foot in dark, diaphanous cloth, the wraithlike fi gure began to spin. Disturbed by its appearance, the other dancers moved away. When one of them spotted naked steel beneath the whirling cloth, the nobles began to fl ee the hall. Enraged that his party had been interrupted, Paimon’s enemy went up to the fi gure and tore away the cloth. For a moment, the tortured fi gure of Paimon stood before them with bloody blades for legs and arms. Someone screamed at the sight, and Paimon faded to nothing. Thinking they had seen the ghost of Paimon, the men immediately went to find their foe’s body and give it a proper burial, but it was gone. Instead, they found a trail of blood and the marks of sword thrusts in the ground. Apparently Paimon was alive but gone—banished by the scream of a woman.

Paimon was a devout womanizer and Romantic during most of his life, not to mention a masterful dancer. Binders who either make a Perform (dance) check (DC 18) or present a well written romantic poem during the binding ritual gain advantage when binding Paimon. Additionally, Paimon will always make a Good pact with any female binder with a charisma of 16 or higher (and potentially elven and human male binders, with charisma 18 or higher)

If you make a poor pact with Paimon, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:

Influence
Description

Personality Trait
I am exceptionally bold, and will always attempt flirting with pretty females (regardless of my gender)

Personality Trait
I cannot help but dance when I hear music.

Submortimer

2015-10-04, 02:55 PM

:smalleek:
I remember seeing at least 1 other Binder homebrew thread give him an ability that essentially meant independent access to magic items. know that this is my greatest fear with a vestige like Andromalius, or even Karsus. do what you need to do to make a kick-butt vestige, just don't ever do that, not in 5e... please.

heh...that was mine.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-04, 02:58 PM

That's a pretty great solution, actually. After all, the manifestation, sign, and influence are all related to the act of Binding, but aren't mechanically necessary. (While I enjoy a good bit of roleplay, I've had people at my table that are present strictly for the hack and slay aspects of d&d - and that's fine. The Binder presents unique flavor, to be sure, but it should not be so imposing as to make it more difficult to play or understand, especially for those people who simply skim the flavor text.) :smallsmile: I'm glad we both agree on it being brief and to the point. I just hope you guys will help me with this because I don't want to do them all by myself. :smalleek:

We'll I've been "buildtesting" level-by-level, trying to compare the power level of the vestiges themselves, and attempting to probe for the class's power against different classes by actually building skeleton characters. I've been placing this class as one with slightly less power than the others when I have a direct point of comparison, to compensate for its immense flexibility. With that said, level 1 Vestiges have been buildtested, and I trust that that are all in an acceptable range of power. It up to playtesting to figure out the degree to which I am wrong. This method is going to be hell on earth if anybody ever decides to test the Binder's compatibility with multiclassing rules. just know that as much as it is appreciated, I would never have forced you to go as far as you did, much less test multiclassing down the line.

I might rewrite the part about Divine Law to make it seem far more ribbon-worthy. I want any sensible DM to just roll a die and treat it randomly, but not explicitly say to do so in the feature description so I don't destroy the rolyplay fun that could be had with it.
How about making it something simple and useful like "When you enter a new location while bound to Primus, you instantly become aware of noteworthy local laws and regulations that apply to you."?

I'll consider moving him up a few levels once I move onto build-testing level 3 vestiges. The main problem with writing Primus is giving him passive features which fit within the abstract theme of Law (once per short and once per long aren't that bad.) Like I said, I'm reasonably happy with Lawful Strike, because it feels like judgement or punishment of laws to me, not the dictating of them, but I can see why it rubs you the wrong way. I'll keep this in mind when I get to level 3. I would be glad if you could keep it in mind.

Finally, bits and pieces:
- We FORGOT about Shax! This means we have 6 2nd level vestiges! (Though, now that I'm looking at Shax, it seems like she should really be a 1st level vestige. If you're cool with that, I'll give her a ribbon feature and introduce her as a 1st level vestige.)
- I feel like Naberius's Persuasive words should let you cast charm person instead of command.
- Italicizing the Legends in the Codex makes them hard to read.
- The only subclasses I can build-test are Sealed Fate and Eldritch Fate, since the last buildtest revealed Occult Fate was in need of rebalancing. I'm not sure I want to proceed until at least Warped Fate is done.

HOPEFULLY once we get the Twisted Fate straightened out you can work with that too. then I'd be more at ease to start rebuilding the Released Fate.
I'm unsure about charm person, I thought command really was better because it offered Narberius some flexibility.
REALLY? Italicizing is that big an issue?:smalleek: I really just thought I was doing something fancy and signalling it was storytime....
Go ahead with Shax. it doesn't seem like a big issue, unless testing later proves otherwise.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-04, 03:02 PM

heh...that was mine.

:eek::redface:
awk~warrrd.... >_>

weaseldust

2015-10-04, 03:57 PM

Scarce

2015-10-04, 04:00 PM

The intent is that it remains on till turned off, via a bonus action, but whatever you think is appropriate. THe wording can be changed too,m that does sound simpler.

We also forgot Andromalius. I'll give him a shot as an 8th level vestige, since we currently only have ONE of those.

Untrue, I wrote Balam as 8th level.

Scarce

2015-10-04, 04:17 PM

Prince Zahn

2015-10-04, 04:30 PM

Speaking as someone who isn't very familiar with the 3rd ed. Binder and who is trying to catch up on this (epic!) project: would it be possible to list a vestige's most significant benefits next to their name in the codex? E.g. you could write Amon (darkvision, fire damage, horns) and Aoskar (Cleric spells, teleportation).

The only reason is that it's hard to remember which is which for someone who isn't already familiar with all of them. Compare that to the situation with spells, where it's pretty obvious what Fireball does even if you are a first time player. I understand that the Binder probably isn't a first-time-player's class, but making it that bit more accessible can only be a good thing. you know, as things are with the Codex right now, since I started embedding vestiges, I must be less than a paragraph away from going over the 1st post's character limit. It will be a lot of effort to write paragraphs, but I can't be satisfied with describing a vestige by his abilities. I will consider making a referrence chart, I wonder if Scarce would have room for such a table in his PDF.

A few thoughts on the class chassis:

I really like the pact-making mechanic.

Renegotiation can't actually be used until level 3, so it either needs to be altered or it needs to be gained later than level 1.

A 2nd-level Binder can't bind any more vestiges per day than a 1st-level Binder, whereas a Warlock gets double the spell slots at level 2. I'd suggest that the number of vestiges that can be bound should be equal to the Warlock's number of pact slots.

As written, anyone can use the occult set. What happens if a non-Binder does? They can't actually make a pact, because that's a Binder class feature. Maybe they just get a vestige lodged in their soul to no benefit?

Why does the level of vestige you can bind increase by 1 every 2 levels, except at level 9 where it stalls for 1 more level? Is it just a typo?

Renegotiation was never meant to be a feature, but rather an extension of soul binding rules. You can renegotiate vestiges up to half your level, rounded up. 1/2 rounded up =1. You could, in theory, summon a vestige, and after a short rest, expel it. But I see your point that doing so will get the Binder nowhere fast. Perhaps we really could move Renegotiation to 3rd level, and soul guardian to 2nd? I'm not sure, what are everybody's thoughts on this?
It would be quite frivolous to learn to use occult tools right now, wouldn't it? We have mentioned in passing about modeling a feat for pact magic after magic initiate, and that it would begin with Proficiency In the Occult set which are most definitely not part of any other tool group like artisan's tools or something. I'd like to think we could certainly make more uses for it, but I'd like to do it one class at a time, thank you.
As I've mentioned before (and this will certainly go in the FAQ because I'm sensing a pattern here), the stalling of 1 level is an experiment, both because I am very much interested in the transition to 10th level, and because I want to see if it helps prevent a number of other issues in the class's chassis and vestiges. So far, this is by design.
I don't know if you noticed, but spellcasting progression in 5e isn't directly linear either. It's very tempting to change the progression to be perfectly linear, but I want the validity of this hunch to be put to the test first.

Scarce

2015-10-04, 04:57 PM

@Submoritmer's Paimon: I've got the old Paimon and the new Paimon open side-by-side, and I think this is an improvement. I don't have time right now to go through all the features one by one, but it's interesting how few differences there are in the broad strokes. Lord of the Dance and Dancer's Grace have similar effects. Grace and Dance of Death work on similar levels. The reason I think this counts as an improvement is that its far easier to understand.

One small concern: I'm not sure what amount of extra damage is okay for Dance of Death. Clerics get an additional 1d8 on attacks with Divine Strike at 8th level, and it only applies once per round. This comes on line 3 levels earlier, can apply to extra attack, and scales for higher damage 3 levels earlier than a cleric as well. Sure, you need to make an additional dancing check every round, but with advantage I don't know how detrimental it will be. I'll dive into the math later; right now I'm going to see The Martian.

Submortimer

2015-10-04, 06:21 PM

Scarce

2015-10-04, 11:31 PM

My mindset behind the additional damage being that slashing and piercing are far more often resisted than most damage types divine strike grants. Still, I'd be okay keeping it at 1d8, or maybe moving it to 1d6 and then 2d6 at 11.
See, I wonder this specifically because Primus uses something very similar, granting +1d6 once per turn, and only when you take one attack on that turn. Now, it's just as possible that Primus's buff is too low for a 3rd level vestige as it is yours is too high, but we definitely need some metric to figure out how we handle these cases.

Submortimer

2015-10-05, 02:03 AM

See, I wonder this specifically because Primus uses something very similar, granting +1d6 once per turn, and only when you take one attack on that turn. Now, it's just as possible that Primus's buff is too low for a 3rd level vestige as it is yours is too high, but we definitely need some metric to figure out how we handle these cases.

Consider these: Hex, Hunters Mark, Colossus strike.

Both Hex and hunters mark are 1st level spells, which add 1d6 damage to every attack made in a round, while colossus strke grants an additional 1d8 damage per round. All are available to the right classes by 3rd level. The Hex and Hunters mark comparisons are particularly apt when you consider that the action economy is about the same, since you need to spend your bonus action to keep dancing.

I think 1d8 once per round is right on par for damage at level 5, maybe remove the boost at level 11.

Scarce

2015-10-05, 12:24 PM

My reworked Occult Fate:

Favored Vestiges
Beginning when you select this fate at 3rd level, select 3 vestiges you know that you have made a good pact with; these vestiges must be of a level no higher than half your highest known vestige level. You always make a Good Pact when you bind these vestiges.

You can select an additional vestige at 7th, 13th, and 17th level. Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose replace a Favored Vestige with another vestige that you can bind at that level.

Extra Vestige
At 3rd level, as an action, you can bind one of your Favored Vestiges with a Poor Pact without it counting against your daily limit of vestige levels, or number of vestiges bound. You can expel this vestige normally, but you cannot renegotiate a new vestige in its place. At 13th level, you always bind this vestige with a Good Pact.

This vestige is expelled after 1 minute. At 7th level, this duration increases: the vestige is expelled after 10 minutes, at 13th level the vestige is expelled when you take a short or long rest, and at 17th level only when you take a long rest. Once you use this ability, you must finish a long rest to do so again.

Share Vestige
Starting at 7th level, when you bind your Extra Vestige, you can instead bind it to another willing host (that is not a binder) with a Poor Pact as a 10 minute ritual. Doing so requires a binding check against that vestige. On a failed check, you instead bind the vestige to yourself with a Poor Pact.

Empty Vessel
Starting at 13th level, when you bind your Extra Vestige, you can instead bind it to a corpse or skeleton as a 10 minute ritual, animating the body as per the spell animate dead, but with the following differences:

The undead gains all the features as it would being bound to the chosen vestige.
The undead can ignore your mental commands, and will act in accordance as having both influences of its bound vestige.

The Extra Vestige is expelled and the undead host disintegrates when its duration expires, or is expelled early when you or the undead creature are reduced to zero hit points.

Medium
At 13th level, you learn to channel vestiges with much greater efficiency and fluidity. When renegotiating your pacts following a short rest, you can expel any or all of your current vestiges, and make new pacts as if it was following a long rest; you still cannot exceed your maximum number of vestiges bound at one time. As well, you do not have disadvantage when attempting to re-bind an expelled vestige within 24 hours.
After using this ability to renegotiate your pacts, you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

Master Summoner
By 17th level, you learn to expedite the binding process to the point that you can swap vestiges in the blink of an eye. As an action, you can expel a bound vestige and bind a new vestige, following the standard rules for renegotiation. You cannot use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

I tried to crank simplicity to 11, while keeping class balance about right. No idea who well I succeeded.
EDITs: Extra Vestige now requires an action to bind, and Empty Vessel and Share Vestige require a 10 minute ritual.
Extra Vestige lasts until a long rest at 17th level, instead of 13th. (Automatic god pact changed to 13th instead).

Submortimer

2015-10-05, 12:52 PM

My reworked Occult Fate:

Favored Vestiges
Beginning when you select this fate at 3rd level, select 3 vestiges you know that you have made a good pact with; these vestiges must be of a level no higher than half your highest known vestige level. You always make a Good Pact when you bind these vestiges.

You can select an additional vestige at 7th, 13th, and 17th level. Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose replace a Favored Vestige with another vestige that you can bind at that level.

Extra Vestige
At 3rd level, as a 10 minute ritual, you can bind one of your Favored Vestiges with a Poor Pact without it counting against your daily limit of vestige levels, or number of vestiges bound. You can expel this vestige normally, but you cannot renegotiate a new vestige in its place.

This vestige is expelled after 1 minute. At 7th level, this duration increases: the vestige is expelled when you take a short or long rest, and at 13th level only when you take a long rest. At 17th level, you always bind this vestige with a Good Pact. Once you use this ability, you must finish a long rest to do so again.

Share Vestige
Starting at 7th level, when you perform a ritual to bind your Extra Vestige, you can instead bind it to another willing host (that is not a binder) with a Poor Pact. Doing so requires a binding check against that vestige. On a failed check, you instead bind the vestige to yourself with a Poor Pact.

Empty Vessel
Starting at 13th level, when you perform a ritual to bind your Extra Vestige, you can instead bind it to a corpse or skeleton, animating the body as per the spell animate dead, but with the following differences:

The undead gains all the features as it would being bound to the chosen vestige.
The undead can ignore your mental commands, and will act in accordance as having both influences of its bound vestige.

The Extra Vestige is expelled and the undead host disintegrates when its duration expires, or is expelled early when you or the undead creature are reduced to zero hit points.

Medium
At 13th level, you learn to channel vestiges with much greater efficiency and fluidity. When renegotiating your pacts following a short rest, you can expel any or all of your current vestiges, and make new pacts as if it was following a long rest; you still cannot exceed your maximum number of vestiges bound at one time. As well, you do not have disadvantage when attempting to re-bind an expelled vestige within 24 hours.
After using this ability to renegotiate your pacts, you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

Master Summoner
By 17th level, you learn to expedite the binding process to the point that you can swap vestiges in the blink of an eye. As an action, you can expel a bound vestige and bind a new vestige, following the standard rules for renegotiation. You cannot use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

I tried to crank simplicity to 11, while keeping class balance about right. No idea who well I succeeded.

I like this. There are only two issues that I can see.

1. Extra vestige is kinda useless until 7th level, given the time the ritual takes. I don't totally know how to fix that.

2. EDIT: I didn't read Favored Vestige well enough, this point is moot.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-05, 12:56 PM

My reworked Occult Fate:

Favored Vestiges
Beginning when you select this fate at 3rd level, select 3 vestiges you know that you have made a good pact with; these vestiges must be of a level no higher than half your highest known vestige level. You always make a Good Pact when you bind these vestiges.

You can select an additional vestige at 7th, 13th, and 17th level. Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose replace a Favored Vestige with another vestige that you can bind at that level.

Extra Vestige
At 3rd level, as a 10 minute ritual, you can bind one of your Favored Vestiges with a Poor Pact without it counting against your daily limit of vestige levels, or number of vestiges bound. You can expel this vestige normally, but you cannot renegotiate a new vestige in its place.

This vestige is expelled after 1 minute. At 7th level, this duration increases: the vestige is expelled when you take a short or long rest, and at 13th level only when you take a long rest. At 17th level, you always bind this vestige with a Good Pact. Once you use this ability, you must finish a long rest to do so again.

Share Vestige
Starting at 7th level, when you perform a ritual to bind your Extra Vestige, you can instead bind it to another willing host (that is not a binder) with a Poor Pact. Doing so requires a binding check against that vestige. On a failed check, you instead bind the vestige to yourself with a Poor Pact.

Empty Vessel
Starting at 13th level, when you perform a ritual to bind your Extra Vestige, you can instead bind it to a corpse or skeleton, animating the body as per the spell animate dead, but with the following differences:

The undead gains all the features as it would being bound to the chosen vestige.
The undead can ignore your mental commands, and will act in accordance as having both influences of its bound vestige.

The Extra Vestige is expelled and the undead host disintegrates when its duration expires, or is expelled early when you or the undead creature are reduced to zero hit points.

Medium
At 13th level, you learn to channel vestiges with much greater efficiency and fluidity. When renegotiating your pacts following a short rest, you can expel any or all of your current vestiges, and make new pacts as if it was following a long rest; you still cannot exceed your maximum number of vestiges bound at one time. As well, you do not have disadvantage when attempting to re-bind an expelled vestige within 24 hours.
After using this ability to renegotiate your pacts, you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

Master Summoner
By 17th level, you learn to expedite the binding process to the point that you can swap vestiges in the blink of an eye. As an action, you can expel a bound vestige and bind a new vestige, following the standard rules for renegotiation. You cannot use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

I tried to crank simplicity to 11, while keeping class balance about right. No idea who well I succeeded.there is some improvement, yes. It is certainly more elegant.

Voici mes notes:

It doesn't sit with me right that this Fate 2 3rd level features, 2 7th level features, and 2 13th level features. 2 features at level 3 is usually understandable because one of them is almost always a ribbon or bonus proficiencies.
I was with you until you guys said you wanted to grant the Occult Fate a free vestige. It's more than just versatility, it's a power spike. I would swap it with the 17th level power, and limit it to first and second level vestiges. Make it a little more comparable to the Wizard's Spell Mastery feature at 18th level.
I would swap Empty Vessel with Share Vestige in terms of level, and remove the limit on extra vestige (assuming you go with my suggestion and not make it available yet) otherwise both seem well done.
I'd suggest toning down Medium a bit and filling the major 3rd Level feature with it. This is a real benefit, but that benefit is versatility and convenience to swap out your vestiges better. That can be important even when you can only bind 1 vestige.

Overall well done. It's easier and solves the majority of problems with the Occult Fate. Just ease up on the features and reorganize and voila.

weaseldust

2015-10-05, 12:56 PM

you know, as things are with the Codex right now, since I started embedding vestiges, I must be less than a paragraph away from going over the 1st post's character limit. It will be a lot of effort to write paragraphs, but I can't be satisfied with describing a vestige by his abilities. I will consider making a referrence chart, I wonder if Scarce would have room for such a table in his PDF.

I don't want to pressure you to do a load more work, just a couple of words here or there would be helpful. I very quickly made the following for my own benefit for the vestiges up to level 2, because those seem least provisional. Is it accurate, or have I missed something important?

Amon
Darkvision, fire damage, horns

Aoskar
Cleric cantrips, teleporting, Protection from Evil and Good

Dahlver-Nar
Poison Spray, Share Harm, Dissonant Whispers

Naberius
Investigation stuff, Vicious Mockery, Command/Suggestion

Ronove
Monk stuff, Mage Hand

Aym
Dwarf stuff, fire halo, Shatter

Haagenti
Great weapon stuff, frost, miss chance

Ipos
Claws, truesight

Leraje
Bow stuff, hiding

Malphas
Rogue stuff, Invisibility, familiar

Three comments:

There are surprisingly few spells being handed out (well, it's surprising to me), which means I had a mistaken view of the class as a potential full caster.
Ipos probably shouldn't get at-will truesight at that level.
Some of the vestiges seem not to have much of an organising theme to their abilities except for their legend.

You could, in theory, summon a vestige, and after a short rest, expel it. But I see your point that doing so will get the Binder nowhere fast. Perhaps we really could move Renegotiation to 3rd level, and soul guardian to 2nd? I'm not sure, what are everybody's thoughts on this?

I didn't think of just expelling a vestige without binding a new one; I suppose that's worth being able to do at level 1.

It is a problem that the Binder barely progresses between level 1 and level 2, whereas most classes gain something very substantial at levels 1, 2, and 3. I'd suggest that putting Sign Suppression at 1 and Renegotiation (or you could call it 'Expulsion' to discourage the error I made concerning it) at 2 would be better, but it still leaves level 2 very meagre.

To make Renegotiation better at low levels, would you consider having level 0 vestiges? They can't really be abused, because there's a cap on how many vestiges you can bind, and because you can only renegotiate once. If they had harmless, but useful, per-long-rest abilities, like being reduced to 1HP instead of 0, or opening any door, that would make renegotiating for a new one attractive.

It would be quite frivolous to learn to use occult tools right now, wouldn't it?

On reflection, I don't think you need to say anything about it. It's just that they have a price in GP and could be used by anyone, albeit without proficiency, so I wondered what would happen. For comparison, anyone can get a wizard's spellbook and write in it, but they won't be able to memorise spells from it if they don't have wizard levels. I'd have a non-Binder see some signs of the vestige they summoned, but, now that I think again I probably wouldn't have it interact with them at all. In any case, it can be left up to DMs what happens.

As I've mentioned before (and this will certainly go in the FAQ because I'm sensing a pattern here), the stalling of 1 level is an experiment, both because I am very much interested in the transition to 10th level, and because I want to see if it helps prevent a number of other issues in the class's chassis and vestiges. So far, this is by design.

Can you go into any more detail as to your reasons? I found your comment earlier in the thread that you don't want to increase the number and level of vestiges available at the same time. I don't really find that reason persuasive because it would be so much less disruptive to change when they increase the number they can bind instead - unlike altering the level, that wouldn't set them back a spell level compared to full casters. (That said, as noted above, I'm wondering if the comparison to full casters is as useful as I thought.)

What is particularly special about level 10?

I don't know if you noticed, but spellcasting progression in 5e isn't directly linear either. It's very tempting to change the progression to be perfectly linear, but I want the validity of this hunch to be put to the test first.

The increase in spell level is pretty much linear for full casters. There's a brief speed-up for half-casters at level 3, but the start of the progression is a better place to play around than the middle, and they aren't disadvantaged relative to anyone else. The progression for Eldritch Knights is pretty ad-hoc, but that's because spells are a small part of their power and because they have to be balanced against non-casting subclasses.

Scarce

2015-10-05, 08:07 PM

It doesn't sit with me right that this Fate 2 3rd level features, 2 7th level features, and 2 13th level features. 2 features at level 3 is usually understandable because one of them is almost always a ribbon or bonus proficiencies.

There's only 1 feature at 7th level. And Favored Vestiges is a ribbon, since making a Good Pact carries no mechanical weight.

I was with you until you guys said you wanted to grant the Occult Fate a free vestige. It's more than just versatility, it's a power spike. I would swap it with the 17th level power, and limit it to first and second level vestiges. Make it a little more comparable to the Wizard's Spell Mastery feature at 18th level.

The question we should answer is what the Occult Fate is all about. Thematically, I think about this subclass as being the 'default', or 'easy' binder subclass. It should be all about being the best binder at binding. If doing that is all about versatility, that makes sense. The binder is a versatile jack-of-all trades class, and making it easier to get into those roles makes perfect sense. But I don't think that makes a good signpost. What's gonna make people want to pick the Occult Fate? Versatility might not be high on the list compared to martial weapon proficiency, spellcasting, or 'become a eldritch abomination'.

Balancing the Extra Vestige is obviously going to be a challenge, but it accomplishes the larger goal of versatility, just in a different way. Here's how it's limited so far: Very limited duration until 7th level, you can only bind from among your favored vestiges, and you must choose whether you bind the vestige to yourself, an ally (Share Vestige), or a corpse (Empty Vessel). Also, the limits are Favored Vestiges are stricter than when Submortimer first wrote this: your Extra Vestige will never be higher than 4th level (and this can be made more strict, but I think its in the right ballpark.) Now, I don't know if this will be too powerful (as it was last time in Submortimer's version, from my buildtesting), but I think that this might modulate the power spike down to a level that's appropriate.

Interestingly, the fact that vestiges scale in power means that granting an additional vestige is by in large analogous to granting spellcasting. With appropriate limits on which vestiges can be accessed as Favored Vestiges at a particular level and for how long, I think it can be exactly on the same power level.

Submortimer

2015-10-05, 09:01 PM

The question we should answer is what the Occult Fate is all about. Thematically, I think about this subclass as being the 'default', or 'easy' binder subclass. It should be all about being the best binder at binding. If doing that is all about versatility, that makes sense. The binder is a versatile jack-of-all trades class, and making it easier to get into those roles makes perfect sense. But I don't think that makes a good signpost. What's gonna make people want to pick the Occult Fate? Versatility might not be high on the list compared to martial weapon proficiency, spellcasting, or 'become a eldritch abomination'.

Balancing the Extra Vestige is obviously going to be a challenge, but it accomplishes the larger goal of versatility, just in a different way. Here's how it's limited so far: Very limited duration until 7th level, you can only bind from among your favored vestiges, and you must choose whether you bind the vestige to yourself, an ally (Share Vestige), or a corpse (Empty Vessel). Also, the limits are Favored Vestiges are stricter than when Submortimer first wrote this: your Extra Vestige will never be higher than 4th level (and this can be made more strict, but I think its in the right ballpark.) Now, I don't know if this will be too powerful (as it was last time in Submortimer's version, from my buildtesting), but I think that this might modulate the power spike down to a level that's appropriate.

Interestingly, the fact that vestiges scale in power means that granting an additional vestige is by in large analogous to granting spellcasting. With appropriate limits on which vestiges can be accessed as Favored Vestiges at a particular level and for how long, I think it can be exactly on the same power level.

I agree with a lot of this. The Occult fate is supposed to be the "Best at Binding" Binder:

He binds certain vestiges more easily
He binds vestiges faster
He binds MORE vestiges
He can bind vestieges to Non-Binders
He can Renegotiate faster and more easily than other binders

This is everything that I had planned it to be, and I really like Scare's version.

@Zahn, I totally understand what you mean by the power spike, but it's needed; what the Occult Fate gains is pretty paltry(compared to the other fates) without gaining an extra vestige. Compare Gaining an additional vestige to the abilities granted by TF, SF, or EF, and you'll probably see a bonus vestige won't trump their powers.

Submortimer

2015-10-05, 09:11 PM

Three comments:

There are surprisingly few spells being handed out (well, it's surprising to me), which means I had a mistaken view of the class as a potential full caster.
Ipos probably shouldn't get at-will truesight at that level.
Some of the vestiges seem not to have much of an organising theme to their abilities except for their legend.

It's not a Full spellcaster, at least not in the Wizard/cleric/Sorcerer sense. it is MUCH closer to a Paladin or a Warlock in scope and ability, though with much more versatility.

I didn't think of just expelling a vestige without binding a new one; I suppose that's worth being able to do at level 1.

It's not a bad thing to have, in case you're finding a poorly bound vestige is causing you issues.

It is a problem that the Binder barely progresses between level 1 and level 2, whereas most classes gain something very substantial at levels 1, 2, and 3. I'd suggest that putting Sign Suppression at 1 and Renegotiation (or you could call it 'Expulsion' to discourage the error I made concerning it) at 2 would be better, but it still leaves level 2 very meagre.

I don't know right now how it stacks up, but I think having vestiges in the first place makes level 1 and 2 binders quite powerful without needing additional class abilities at those levels.

To make Renegotiation better at low levels, would you consider having level 0 vestiges? They can't really be abused, because there's a cap on how many vestiges you can bind, and because you can only renegotiate once. If they had harmless, but useful, per-long-rest abilities, like being reduced to 1HP instead of 0, or opening any door, that would make renegotiating for a new one attractive.

This...probably won't work, but I have no idea yet. That would require substantial rebuilding, and creation of some sort of cantrip-like "minor spirits". it's a lot of work for not a ton of benefit.

On reflection, I don't think you need to say anything about it. It's just that they have a price in GP and could be used by anyone, albeit without proficiency, so I wondered what would happen. For comparison, anyone can get a wizard's spellbook and write in it, but they won't be able to memorise spells from it if they don't have wizard levels. I'd have a non-Binder see some signs of the vestige they summoned, but, now that I think again I probably wouldn't have it interact with them at all. In any case, it can be left up to DMs what happens.

Agreed. Binders can use occult tools to bind vestiges; non-binders can use occult tools to wave around, look very "occulty", and basically pretend to be the girls from The Craft

[quote
The increase in spell level is pretty much linear for full casters. There's a brief speed-up for half-casters at level 3, but the start of the progression is a better place to play around than the middle, and they aren't disadvantaged relative to anyone else. The progression for Eldritch Knights is pretty ad-hoc, but that's because spells are a small part of their power and because they have to be balanced against non-casting subclasses.[/QUOTE]

Agreed on this, too. Vestige levels and spell levels should increase at the same rate.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-06, 07:41 AM

I'm thinking about simplifying the renegotiation feature to "1/long rest expel one vestige, and bind a different vestige of that level or lower" instead of what it already does 1/day after a short rest. It should make the arithmetic simpler, and usable across all levels. It should also give the Occult Fate potential to be more easily compatible with the Chassis.

There's only 1 feature at 7th level. And Favored Vestiges is a ribbon, since making a Good Pact carries no mechanical weight. Favored vestige kind of stops being a ribbon once features start being dependant on it to function. Extra vestige is dependant on it, and all the other featutes are dependant on Extra vestige. Hence all those features (indirectly) rely on your selection of favored vestiges, therefore it doesn't apply as a ribbon.
I might have misread, but you still have 2 13th level features, whereas no other subclass does. That breaks the format compared to other vestiges and it's kind of a big deal.

Balancing the Extra Vestige is obviously going to be a challenge, but it accomplishes the larger goal of versatility, just in a different way. Here's how it's limited so far: Very limited duration until 7th level, you can only bind from among your favored vestiges, and you must choose whether you bind the vestige to yourself, an ally (Share Vestige), or a corpse (Empty Vessel). Also, the limits are Favored Vestiges are stricter than when Submortimer first wrote this: your Extra Vestige will never be higher than 4th level (and this can be made more strict, but I think its in the right ballpark.) Now, I don't know if this will be too powerful (as it was last time in Submortimer's version, from my buildtesting), but I think that this might modulate the power spike down to a level that's appropriate. The wizard, In comparison, gets his spell mastery at 18th level - those are 1st and 2nd level spells For a safety net. At level 20, he gets a 3rd Level spell as a safety net too. The Binder technically can achieve 2 9th level vestiges during the day, as well (but that means quick versatility burnout), which is already more than other classes can hope for.

Giving the Binder a 6 vestiges is playing with fire, especially because we don't fully understand the capabilities of 5 vestiges yet. It doesn't make me feel any safer about it that this extra vestige does not count towards the standard limit, either.

Interestingly, the fact that vestiges scale in power means that granting an additional vestige is by in large analogous to granting spellcasting. With appropriate limits on which vestiges can be accessed as Favored Vestiges at a particular level and for how long, I think it can be exactly on the same power level.no argument. My concern is that the limits are are insufficient. No4 spellcaster gets a free 4th level spell slot, and getting a 3rd level spell for a safety net (like Signature Spell) is pushing it for 20th level.

I agree with a lot of this. The Occult fate is supposed to be the "Best at Binding" Binder:

He binds certain vestiges more easily
He binds vestiges faster
He binds MORE vestiges
He can bind vestiges to Non-Binders
He can Renegotiate faster and more easily than other binders

This is everything that I had planned it to be, and I really like Scare's version.

@Zahn, I totally understand what you mean by the power spike, but it's needed; what the Occult Fate gains is pretty paltry(compared to the other fates) without gaining an extra vestige. Compare Gaining an additional vestige to the abilities granted by TF, SF, or EF, and you'll probably see a bonus vestige won't trump their powers.Please Don't take this the wrong way, but I think binding a vestige to another party member is an incredible asset to have. Being able to switch out vestiges like pokémon or at the push of the omnitrix button is not a joke either, because that means you can have the exact powers you need, When you need them the most. having a zombie cohort is also highly desireable. I would even give it bonus hit dice or something to spruce it up. You built a solid foundation for a utility and support subclass. If you think you need to compensate that, I think we have other problems with this subclass besides a dodgy power spike.

Scarce

2015-10-06, 10:55 AM

@Shax: Ready for 1st level.

I'm thinking about simplifying the renegotiation feature to "1/long rest expel one vestige, and bind a different vestige of that level or lower" instead of what it already does 1/day after a short rest. It should make the arithmetic simpler, and usable across all levels. It should also give the Occult Fate potential to be more easily compatible with the Chassis.

How about just being able to switch out up to half of your vestiges (minimum 1) when you complete a short rest?

Favored vestige kind of stops being a ribbon once features start being dependent on it to function. Extra vestige is dependant on it, and all the other featutes are dependant on Extra vestige. Hence all those features (indirectly) rely on your selection of favored vestiges, therefore it doesn't apply as a ribbon.
I might have misread, but you still have 2 13th level features, whereas no other subclass does. That breaks the format compared to other vestiges and it's kind of a big deal.

None of this is a big deal. More important than sticking precisely to a format is making the subclass balanced and easy to understand, and I think you'r'e missing that point. Favored Vestige interacts with Extra Vestige, but doesn't grant anything on its own, so you only get 1 real feature at 3rd level. That checks out; end of story.

Giving the Binder a 6 vestiges is playing with fire, especially because we don't fully understand the capabilities of 5 vestiges yet. It doesn't make me feel any safer about it that this extra vestige does not count towards the standard limit, either.

If the Extra Vestige counted toward the standard limit, it wouldn't be 'Extra'. I think at higher levels, the difference of having an additional vestige won't be gamechanging if it's strictly a lower-level vestige, but this is the realm of buildtesting.

no argument. My concern is that the limits are are insufficient. No spellcaster gets a free 4th level spell slot, and getting a 3rd level spell for a safety net (like Signature Spell) is pushing it for 20th level.

On the contrary, a wizard gets half his level in free spell slots on a short rest with Arcane Recovery, with a ceiling of 5th level. But I think the comparison to wizard class features is missing the mark entirely. You can't take the 1st and 2nd level spells offered by Spell Mastery as gospel, because there's no comparison to be made here; vestiges =/= spells and wizards =/= binders.

We can work on the limits of the Favored Vestiges; just suggest a more limited metric to determine the maximum Favored Vestige level. That being said, until buildtesting reveals a problem (and I'll be working with someone offline on this one to maintain objectivity), I want to keep Extra Vestige in at the level it's at. I've considered a few rearrangements of this subclass, as you suggested, but most of these have a hard time maintaining a logical flow of features.

Please Don't take this the wrong way, but I think binding a vestige to another party member is an incredible asset to have. Being able to switch out vestiges like pokémon or at the push of the omnitrix button is not a joke either, because that means you can have the exact powers you need, When you need them the most. having a zombie cohort is also highly desireable. I would even give it bonus hit dice or something to spruce it up. You built a solid foundation for a utility and support subclass. If you think you need to compensate that, I think we have other problems with this subclass besides a dodgy power spike.

The focus of this subclass isn't minionmancy, nor is it support, nor is it utility. It's Versatility. You get a single use of a limited Extra Vestige each day and by the conclusion of the subclass you have three options on where you can use it: keep if to yourself, give it to an ally, or put it in a (squishy) cohort. The Medium and Master Summoner features enhance the versatility of the class in a very dynamic (but limited) way, but these don't hold up as the focus of the class in terms of power, nor as a selling point. Therefore, it's important that Extra Vestige comes online early, even if the duration is terrible, so give the class some sort of desirability.

I've tried some rearrangements of the features, including the one you suggested, but most versions either have almost nothing to offer at 3rd level or don't have a logically consistent flow of features. That being said, I'm considering moving Medium to 3rd level, at the risk of having too many features at that level.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-06, 11:37 AM

@Shax: Ready for 1st level. cool. I'll look at it later.

How about just being able to switch out up to half of your vestiges (minimum 1) when you complete a short rest? very much in line with Arcane Recovery. I can live with that.

None of this is a big deal. More important than sticking precisely to a format is making the subclass balanced and easy to understand, and I think you're missing that point. :/ you're saying that like the the two scenarios are mutually exclusive. *kicks at ground*

If the Extra Vestige counted toward the standard limit, it wouldn't be 'Extra'. I think at higher levels, the difference of having an additional vestige won't be gamechanging if it's strictly a lower-level vestige, but this is the realm of buildtesting.It would be extra, as you can objectively have more options when working with 6 vestiges than with 5. I could have probably live with it if we were talking about a low-level vestige, but 4th is not a low level vestige.

On the contrary, a wizard gets half his level in free spell slots on a short rest with Arcane Recovery, with a ceiling of 5th levelThe binder's equivalent of that is renegotiation.

But I think the comparison to wizard class features is missing the mark entirely. You can't take the 1st and 2nd level spells offered by Spell Mastery as gospel, because there's no comparison to be made here; vestiges =/= spells and wizards =/= binders.the most recurring advice the game offers for making new material is to compare it with what other classes get at similar levels. Wizards =/= Binders, I know, but our goal is Binder || other classes. We want the class to be a comparable choice to other classes to keep it attractive, but when a Binder subclass gets something analogious to another class's feature yet is objectively superior than what it gets at really high levels. That's a red light.

We can work on the limits of the Favored Vestiges; just suggest a more limited metric to determine the maximum Favored Vestige level. That being said, until buildtesting reveals a problem (and I'll be working with someone offline on this one to maintain objectivity), I want to keep Extra Vestige in at the level it's at. I've considered a few rearrangements of this subclass, as you suggested, but most of these have a hard time maintaining a logical flow of features. maybe the problem is with the features themselves that need to be given new thought, I'd say that perhaps it needs to be redesigned from the ground up, since I don't think this is working out as it should.
Personally I was never keen on a subclass that is a binder+ because the 5e Binder is already pushing limits on binding.

The focus of this subclass isn't minionmancy, nor is it support, nor is it utility. It's Versatility. My sincerest apologies if 2 major features gave me a different point of view. Geez...

You get a single use of a limited Extra Vestige each day and by the conclusion of the subclass you have three options on where you can use it: keep if to yourself, give it to an ally, or put it in a (squishy) cohort. The Medium and Master Summoner features enhance the versatility of the class in a very dynamic (but limited) way, but these don't hold up as the focus of the class in terms of power, nor as a selling point. Therefore, it's important that Extra Vestige comes online early, even if the duration is terrible, so give the class some sort of desirability.you say the subclass's focus should be on versatility, and then you say versatility is not a solid selling point for a subclass. To me this sounds like this class needs to be reimagined so it doesn't have to rely on this single grand power spike to be effective.

I've tried some rearrangements of the features, including the one you suggested, but most versions either have almost nothing to offer at 3rd level or don't have a logically consistent flow of features. That being said, I'm considering moving Medium to 3rd level, at the risk of having too many features at that level.something would have to be scrapped anyway, in my opinion. I'm not keen on a subclass having too many features, and I don't think saying the subclass is weak otherwise is a valid reason to allow that. The subclass's overall potential needs to be spread out more evenly.

Submortimer

2015-10-06, 04:15 PM

@Scarce, @Zahn, to limit the spinning of wheels and the gnashing of teeth, I propose we keep OF as it currently stands. We then finish out UF and TF, and then look to changing what needs to be changed once we get to playtesting.

Scarce

2015-10-06, 05:54 PM

Should I move onto build-testing 3rd level characters with subclasses (which are as of yet incomplete) or should I move onto balancing the 3rd level vestiges amongst themselves?

Submortimer

2015-10-06, 07:31 PM

Should I move onto build-testing 3rd level characters with subclasses (which are as of yet incomplete) or should I move onto balancing the 3rd level vestiges amongst themselves?

Let's get the vestiges balanced first. The last incomplete subclass is Released Fate, which I'm planning on doing here in the next day or so, and once we get something that thematically fits and isn't stupidly, obviously OP, we can start to playtest and balance those.

Scarce

2015-10-06, 11:52 PM

Okay, the 3rd level vestiges currently look like:

Primus
- (ribbon) Advantage on Int checks pertaining to laws
- +1d6 on 1 melee attack each turn
- immune to being charmed
- command (at will - once per creature/24 hours)
- Wis save or creature must repeat action or lose it (reaction, 1/short)

Paimon (Submortimer)
- proficiency: rapiers, shortswords
- Half-Proficiency on non-proficient Dex skills
- (ribbon) Advantage on Performance and Acrobatics while dancing
- Performance (Dance) DC15 = +1d8 damage (scales to 2d8)
- While dancing, does not provoke Opportunity Attacks
- Performance (Dance) DC = opponent's attack roll to dodge (1/short)
- haste (1/long)

Xanathar
- Resistance on checks made to resist conditions from spells
- fire bolt cantrip
- slow (1/long)
- Wis save 1 target or sleep (1/long)
- fear (1/long)
- Con save vs 8d6 necrotic damage (1/long)

Focalor
- Blindness/deafness (1/short)
- (ribbon) water breathing constant
- shocking grasp cantrip
- (ribbon) difficult to discern your emotions or thoughts
- 60 feet, Dex save against 3d6 lightning damage (scales with level)
- impose disadvantage on creature adjacent to you (reaction)

- - -

There's a lot to observe with this level. While 2nd level ended up being all about enhancing melee damage, 3rd level is all about granting some spellcasting. Some quick notes, in no particular order:

Primus and Paimon have comparable features with additional damage on attacks. I've mentioned this before, but we should determine how these damages fit into a power curve. (My feeling is that we shouldn't compare these to spells, but rather class features, like how much damage a maneuver is granting at this level.)
Perhaps Primus and Focalor are the weaker candidates here, but the gap is really not massive compared to other levels
It feels like Paimon gets a lot of stuff compared to the other vesitges. This could as easily be an indicator that Paimon has too much power as it is that the rest of the vestiges at this level need a little more. I'll let you guys figure that out.
Paimon constantly refers to Performance (dance) which is an artifact of 3.5. This is now under the broad category of Dexterity (Performance) and should probably be changed accordingly.
Xanathar focuses heavily on the 1/long ray attacks (That was kind of the point, however; I'd rather you guys tell me how that stacks up, since it's rather experimental for this vestige. I liked the idea of a vestige having few constant abilities, but many expendable ones as a change of pace.)
Is Xanathar's resistance to magical conditions too powerful? Does is flavorfuly represent the antimagic eye, and if not, what does?
I labeled Focalor's water breathing as a ribbon since this doesn't come up all that often in a normal setting. Thinking about this as a ribbon makes it clear the Focalor has less to offer than the other vestiges (the main thing to compete with is Shax, which I can tone down, if anyone objects to it)
The debuff (Aura of Sadness) carries a lot of weight in Focalor. Scratch this- I misread this ability.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-07, 02:21 AM

Not going to address this yet since I'm at work. Just want to say that traditionally, Performance is a Charisma skill. The proper lingo should be "Charisma (Performance) check".

Submortimer

2015-10-07, 06:31 AM

Not going to address this yet since I'm at work. Just want to say that traditionally, Performance is a Charisma skill. The proper lingo should be "Charisma (Performance) check".

Correct, I'll fix the wording today.

And fixed. They are specifically Dexterity (Perform) checks. I understand that Perform is a primarily Charisma-based skill, but the skill system in 5e is modular enough to allow for this: Dexterity check, add your proficiency bonus if you are proficient in Perform.

Scarce

2015-10-07, 02:35 PM

I'm considering the following changes to Primus, to make it a little more competitive:

Make command at will instead of once per short rest.

Exchange Divine Structure with the following:

Rule of Law
Through Primus, you can as an action issue a divine law to all creatures near you for 1 minute. Select one of the commands from below. Each creature within 30 feet must make a Charisma saving throw at the beginning of its turn, and, on a failure, must abide by the rule until the beginning of its next turn.

You must follow the rule that you choose for the entire 1 minute duration. If you break this rule, the effect ends, and you take 4d6 psychic damage.

Speed Limit. No creature can move further than 10 feet each round.
Banned School. Specify one school of magic. No creature can cast or concentrate on a spell from this school.
Pacifism. Creatures can make only 1 attack each round.

After using this ability, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

Too powerful? About right?

Scarce

2015-10-08, 02:51 PM

Wow, 24 hours without binder posts? What's everyone up to?

Prince Zahn

2015-10-08, 03:04 PM

Wow, 24 hours without binder posts? What's everyone up to?

Sorry. I had a tough week, please forgive me if I don't want to talk about it. I'll see what I can do tomorrow because I have 3 levels of exhaustion on me already.

Spiriah

2015-10-09, 09:35 AM

Hey everyone. It's been a while, huh? Haven't had time to post here recently, but I've been sorta following along with new developments.

To respond to some of Scarce's points:

Perhaps Primus and Focalor are the weaker candidates here, but the gap is really not massive compared to other levels

Yeah, Focalor feels a little weak to me, too. I think I was trying to stick too close to 3.5 Focalor, perhaps? Whatever input you guys have would be appreciated.

Xanathar focuses heavily on the 1/long ray attacks (That was kind of the point, however; I'd rather you guys tell me how that stacks up, since it's rather experimental for this vestige. I liked the idea of a vestige having few constant abilities, but many expendable ones as a change of pace.)
Is Xanathar's resistance to magical conditions too powerful? Does is flavorfuly represent the antimagic eye, and if not, what does?

I've bound Xanathar on the binder I'm playing a couple times, and he's quite fun, especially when you crit something that has necrotic vulnerability with a Death Ray. The Antimagic Eye is a bit vaguely worded, and RAW only affects checks, not saves(IDK if that was the intent), but it helped me break out of a Telekinesis hold once, so it has its uses. I might play with the idea of having all the individual rays stay as long rest abilities, but after a short rest you can recharge one. I'd recommend it being up to the binder, but if that's too strong it could be a random ray.

I labeled Focalor's water breathing as a ribbon since this doesn't come up all that often in a normal setting. Thinking about this as a ribbon makes it clear the Focalor has less to offer than the other vestiges (the main thing to compete with is Shax, which I can tone down, if anyone objects to it)

I'm thinking that maybe we try to rebuild Focalor so that he synergizes with Shax somehow? I dunno, I like the idea of a binder being able to bind themselves an aquatic powerset for relevant locations.

The debuff (Aura of Sadness) carries a lot of weight in Focalor. It's like it was intended to be a reaction-based feature, but isn't, which grants it spades of power. Also, it absolutely needs a saving throw against the effect. There is practically nothing in 5th edition that imposes a condition or deals damage without either an attack roll or saving throw, and this seems like a simple omission. (My recommendation is to play with Aura of Sadness as a reaction-powered debuff feature, to grant Focalor all the underwater powers Shax basically gets for free, and give him another 1/short spell.)

...Aura of Sadness does use your reaction? :smallconfused:

...you can use your reaction to sap its fighting spirit with feelings of guilt and misery.

I was building AoS as a more magical, Focalor-y version of the Protection fighting style (which doesn't allow a save), with a more delayed but more versatile effect. Maybe drop the ability to put disadvantage on saves, if it's too strong?

Scarce

2015-10-09, 12:31 PM

I'm thinking that maybe we try to rebuild Focalor so that he synergizes with Shax somehow? I dunno, I like the idea of a binder being able to bind themselves an aquatic powerset for relevant locations.

I'll think about synergies today, and I'll post if I think of anything good.

...Aura of Sadness does use your reaction? :smallconfused:

Wow, I totally reread it twice and couldn't find that clause. *facepalm* With that, the feature is totally fine. Having a reaction means you can only effect 1 creature each round and you need to choose which reaction feature you use, so ignore all my other comments on this feature.

Still, the vestige needs a little more power, since it seems he's a little bereft of features.

Spiriah

2015-10-09, 02:19 PM

Still, the vestige needs a little more power, since it seems he's a little bereft of features.
I think that's a side effect of being made while we were relatively early into the project, but I agree. What do you think he's missing in particular?

Scarce

2015-10-10, 08:45 PM

I think that's a side effect of being made while we were relatively early into the project, but I agree. What do you think he's missing in particular?
Specifically, Focalor is missing a once per long rest feature, which is surprising given the number of appropriate 3rd level spells you can choose from. Lightning bolt, call lightning, sleet storm, and water walk come to mind.

However, granting shocking grasp strikes me as strange since the Lightning Strike ability is almost strictly a better choice in all situations. More damage, great range, save for half; Lightning Strike is just better. Unfortunately, this raises another place where the class feels like it's missing a feature. There's several ways to go about fixing this, but I would probably be exchanging the feature for a proper casting of call lightning once per long rest, rather than trying to scale down the damage to a cantrip's level (since it's hard to avoid that it might make shocking grasp redundant.)

Additionally, I would replace the Water Breathing feature with Shax's Aquatic feature, basically word for word. Nothing offered here is strictly crazy: if you bind a aquatic-themed vestige, you should be able to breathe underwater and swim competently. Besides, I don't foresee this coming up all that often, so it's still basically a ribbon feature.

Lastly, it would be wise to implement another once per short rest feature. It doesn't matter what this is, as long as fits the vestige. If you take the route I've suggested, Focalor will look like this:

Focalor
- shocking grasp
- breathe underwater, swim speed, advantage on swim checks (ribbon)
- difficult to discern your emotions (ribbon-ish)
- impose disadvantage on enemy within 5 feet (reaction)
- blindness/deafness (1/short)
- [something else] (1/short)
- call lightning (1/long)

@Xanathar: I've gone ahead and given Xanathar a feature which regains one of his eye rays on a short rest, as per Spiriah's suggestion. I could really use some feedback on Xanathar to know if this is a step in the right direction.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-11, 09:42 AM

And fixed. They are specifically Dexterity (Perform) checks. I understand that Perform is a primarily Charisma-based skill, but the skill system in 5e is modular enough to allow for this: Dexterity check, add your proficiency bonus if you are proficient in Perform.using skills with non-standard ability scores is actually a variant rule in the DMG. I have yet to play in a game that played by it, though.

I'm considering the following changes to Primus, to make it a little more competitive:

Make command at will instead of once per short rest.

Exchange Divine Structure with the following:

Rule of Law
Through Primus, you can as an action issue a divine law to all creatures near you for 1 minute. Select one of the commands from below. Each creature within 30 feet must make a Charisma saving throw at the beginning of its turn, and, on a failure, must abide by the rule until the beginning of its next turn.

You must follow the rule that you choose for the entire 1 minute duration. If you break this rule, the effect ends, and you take 4d6 psychic damage.

Speed Limit. No creature can move further than 10 feet each round.
Banned School. Specify one school of magic. No creature can cast or concentrate on a spell from this school.
Pacifism. Creatures can make only 1 attack each round.

After using this ability, you must complete a long rest before using it again.

Too powerful? About right?I like 'em, but I feel Primus ought to be bumped up to 4th or 5th level that way. Maybe we can have the command thing stop working for a good while if You roll a d20 and get a 1, or if the target gets a 20 on their save.

Scarce

2015-10-11, 11:40 AM

using skills with non-standard ability scores is actually a variant rule in the DMG. I have yet to play in a game that played by it, though.
Yeah, when I mentioned Dexterity (Perform) checks, that was just a mistake on my part. Zahn is right that it's possible to do a non-standard skill check, but I get the impression it's only going to confuse people. And we don't need to do it that way mechanically; it's not like the binder is going to be short on Charisma. Still, this is a very minor point in the grand scheme of things-- do what you want with it.

I like 'em, but I feel Primus ought to be bumped up to 4th or 5th level that way. Maybe we can have the command thing stop working for a good while if You roll a d20 and get a 1, or if the target gets a 20 on their save.
For the record, my goal at the moment is to balance primus correctly as a 3rd level vestige. I get that you want to see it as a higher level vestige, but I'm trying to get a sense for how he operates with these features where he is. Primus isn't far off from the other vesitges in terms of power, so I don't think it absolutely requires a level change, and if it did, I would need to rewrite and retool every feature.

I think Rule of Law thematically fits what you suggested, but I'm unsure how to place it in the power scheme. Is it about right for 3rd level? Too much? Control spells have been toned down a lot in 5th edition, and most of them only target a single creature at a time, even at 4th and 5th level. It's hard to say if a proper control vestige will be properly leveled anywhere lower than 7th level.

Scarce

2015-10-11, 06:38 PM

Since I really want the subclasses to be done, I want ahead and put together another draft of Twisted Fate.
Bonus Proficiencies
Starting at 3rd Level, you have proficiency in either the Intimidation or Perception skill.

Unnatural Weapon
Starting at 3rd level, you gain your own physical sign that betrays your affiliation with pact magic, which you could use as weapon. The exact nature of this disfigurement is up to you, as long as it can reasonably fit as the option you selected. Once you have chosen an unnatural weapon, it cannot be changed. You can show or suppress this sign as a bonus action. Choose one of the following options:
Tentacles. You grow a pair of whipping tendrils. You can attack a creature with these tentacles as an unarmed strike, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage on a hit.
Tail. You grow a muscular, prehensile tail. You can attack a creature with your tail as an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a hit. Additionally, you can use your tail as an extra limb to perform very simple actions, such as opening a door or retrieving an arrow from a quiver. While you do so, it may not use it to hold a weapon or make an unarmed strike.
Spines. You grow a series of bony, pointed spines. You can attack a creature with your spines using an unarmed strike, dealing 1d4 piercing damage on a hit. Additionally, when you end your turn grappling a creature, you deal 1d4 piercing damage to that creature.

Additionally, when you use the Attack action on your turn to make an unarmed strike, you can use a bonus action to attack once with each type of unarmed strike you possess (IE. Bite, Claws, Horns, etc.), to a maximum of 3 additional attacks. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of any of these additional attacks, unless that modifier is negative.

Alter Skin
At 7th Level, you can change the hue and structure of your skin, providing an abnormal benefit. You gain one of the following features of your choice. You can activate and suppress this feature as an action.
Adaptive. You have advantage on all Constitution saving throws against environmental conditions that would cause fatigue (i.e. extreme heat or cold, high air pressure).
Amphibious. You grow gills and fins. You can breathe normally water as well as in normal air, and you gain a swim speed equal to your land speed.
Camouflage. You can shift the color of your skin. You can attempt to hide whenever you are adjacent to a solid surface larger than you with a uniform color or simple pattern (i.e. tall trees, stone walls, a noble house corridor, etc.)

Extra Unnatural Attack
You gain an additional deformity from the following list:
Hooves. You gain muscular legs terminated by hard ivory hooves. You can attack a creature with your hooves as an unarmed strike, dealing 1d6 bludgeoning damage on a hit. Additionally, if you move in a straight line for 10 feet immediately before attacking creature with your hooves, that creature must make a Strength saving throw or be knocked back 5 feet.
Pincers. You gain unearthly-looking pincers on a dedicated appendage. You can attack a creature with your pincers as an unarmed strike dealing 1d8 slashing damage.
Stinger. You gain an insectoid stinger. You can attack a creature with your pincers as an unarmed strike dealing 1d6 piercing damage. On a critical hit, you deal an additional 1d8 poison damage.

Otherworldly Form
Beginning at 17th Level, you can, as an action, manifest the eldritch beast within you and can take its image. For up to 1 minute, your type becomes Aberration, you become Large sized if you were smaller, gain advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws, and deal an additional 1d4 damage on melee weapon attacks. You also gain one of the following benefits of your choice. Once you have chosen, this benefit cannot be changed. Once you have used this feature, you cannot use it again until you complete a long rest.
Dire. The damage dice of each of your unarmed strikes increases to d8s, if it was not already higher.
Impervious. When you first gain this feature, choose 3 types of damage. This selection cannot be changed. You have resistance against these types of damage. The damage you selected do not apply to damage from magical weapons.
Wings. You sprout pronounced, membranous wings and gain a fly speed equal to your movement speed.

Spiriah

2015-10-11, 07:51 PM

Specifically, Focalor is missing a once per long rest feature, which is surprising given the number of appropriate 3rd level spells you can choose from. Lightning bolt, call lightning, sleet storm, and water walk come to mind.
Lightning Bolt and Call Lightning both seem like fine choices, and I'd be open to importing either of them.

However, granting shocking grasp strikes me as strange since the Lightning Strike ability is almost strictly a better choice in all situations. More damage, great range, save for half; Lightning Strike is just better. Unfortunately, this raises another place where the class feels like it's missing a feature. There's several ways to go about fixing this, but I would probably be exchanging the feature for a proper casting of call lightning once per long rest, rather than trying to scale down the damage to a cantrip's level (since it's hard to avoid that it might make shocking grasp redundant.)
IIRC, my reasoning behind giving Shocking Grasp was to provide some more versatility in case you got caught in melee, and because giving cantrips was part of the formula for building vestiges at the time.
I do think that smoothing out those admittedly similar abilities would be a step in the right direction, and at one point had the idea of an ability similar to Amon's, but instead of holding your breath you'd accumulate a charge, and could release it as a rather short (~20ft, give or take a bit?) line of lightning. I might want to go with a slightly different mechanic than the breath-holding has, though, just to vary the two a bit more.

Additionally, I would replace the Water Breathing feature with Shax's Aquatic feature, basically word for word. Nothing offered here is strictly crazy: if you bind a aquatic-themed vestige, you should be able to breathe underwater and swim competently. Besides, I don't foresee this coming up all that often, so it's still basically a ribbon feature.
Sure. Zahn's redoing the Codex so I can't see Shax ATM, mind posting a link?

Lastly, it would be wise to implement another once per short rest feature. It doesn't matter what this is, as long as fits the vestige.
Hm. Sleet Storm could fit in here. To me, Focalor's main themes are "storms" and "sadness," so anything fitting in one of those categories that has an appropriate power level could work.

@Xanathar: I've gone ahead and given Xanathar a feature which regains one of his eye rays on a short rest, as per Spiriah's suggestion. I could really use some feedback on Xanathar to know if this is a step in the right direction.
I kind of liked having Death Ray as an attack roll, partially because Binder powers seem very save-heavy to the point where legendary resistances pretty handily shut you down if you're not set up with alternate attack methods, though I can certainly see why it's being done like this. I like the recharge system for the rays, though I'm probably not the best one to ask about that. :smalltongue:

Scarce

2015-10-11, 09:11 PM

Sure. Zahn's redoing the Codex so I can't see Shax ATM, mind posting a link?

Shax is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19808261&postcount=155)

I kind of liked having Death Ray as an attack roll, partially because Binder powers seem very save-heavy to the point where legendary resistances pretty handily shut you down if you're not set up with alternate attack methods, though I can certainly see why it's being done like this. I like the recharge system for the rays, though I'm probably not the best one to ask about that. :smalltongue:
Yeah, it's those little things about Xanathar that's hard to pin down. Lots of powerful abilities, but all of them are basically once per day. Does that make him powerful or weak? It's certainly a trade, that much is for sure. You're the only playtester near this level, so I defer to your opinion: if you think Xanathar feels less powerful than the other 3rd level vestiges, I'll leave in the short-rest ray recharge. If you think he's too powerful, I'll cut it.

I changed Death Ray for no reason other than for consistency's sake. All other rays (excepting Fire Bolt) were save-based. Now that I think about it, this technically makes the feature more powerful, since it's now effectively guaranteed to do damage, much like fireball or lightning bolt. I guess that means its in good company, but I see your point about legendary resistances shutting the class down. I can go either way on the attack roll vs saving throw thing for Death Ray.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-13, 03:49 AM

Shax is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19808261&postcount=155)
You know, I've been looking for this, too. Thanks!

Yeah, it's those little things about Xanathar that's hard to pin down. Lots of powerful abilities, but all of them are basically once per day. Does that make him powerful or weak? It's certainly a trade, that much is for sure. You're the only playtester near this level, so I defer to your opinion: if you think Xanathar feels less powerful than the other 3rd level vestiges, I'll leave in the short-rest ray recharge. If you think he's too powerful, I'll cut it. I suppose it depends what sort of damage output other classes can do in comparison with their limited use features/spells.

I changed Death Ray for no reason other than for consistency's sake. All other rays (excepting Fire Bolt) were save-based. Now that I think about it, this technically makes the feature more powerful, since it's now effectively guaranteed to do damage, much like fireball or lightning bolt. I guess that means its in good company, but I see your point about legendary resistances shutting the class down. I can go either way on the attack roll vs saving throw thing for Death Ray. I suggested using ranged spell attacks so there would be more applications of spell attacks in the class, a lack of it was reportedly an issue pointed out earlier, it makes sense to me that a ray that targets one target won't necessarily hit, making it legitimately a ranged spell attack.
I'd also like to point out that just because a feature or spell offers a save, it strictly mean something has to happen on a failed save. The same goes for damage. If the damage seems a bit of a tall order for the level you get, there's no need to deal half damage If the target succeeds on the save.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-13, 04:04 AM

The differences in the twisted fate are rather small at a glance, but I can see how it is more balanced out.

It'll too bad if we can't fit another utility option in there, perhaps something cool and desireable at the 13th level feature. But I won't argue that the extra unnatural weapon is also useful.

I think that the point of granting wings at such a high level is that it's flight speed at will. It doesn't fit as well with Otherworldly because it's 1 minute between rests.

Just so I understand, when combat is usually three rounds long, what's wrong with Siphoning once per turn?

thanks for filling in the blanks, Scarce!

Submortimer

2015-10-13, 08:32 AM

I think that the point of granting wings at such a high level is that it's flight speed at will. It doesn't fit as well with Otherworldly because it's 1 minute between rests.

I'd compare the whole ability to something like the Vengeance Paladin's level 20 ability: extra powers, plus flight for 1 min.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-13, 08:35 AM

I'd compare the whole ability to something like the Vengeance Paladin's level 20 ability: extra powers, plus flight for 1 min.

except that you don't get the other things...

Scarce

2015-10-13, 09:55 AM

except that you don't get the other things...
It gets large size and Aberration type. Should it get some temp HP, or something else?

EDIT: Xanathar's Death Ray is attack roll again. I liked it more that way anyway.

Submortimer

2015-10-13, 06:56 PM

It gets large size and Aberration type.

I would clarify that it gains the benefits of the Enlarge spell: Advantage on strength checks, strength saves, and +1d4 damage to each melee attack.

Also, considering that the Paladin ability is a level 20 capstone, we should make sure Otherworldly isn't as powerful as that. I think large size + flight is just fine.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-14, 01:12 AM

I would clarify that it gains the benefits of the Enlarge spell: Advantage on strength checks, strength saves, and +1d4 damage to each melee attack.

Also, considering that the Paladin ability is a level 20 capstone, we should make sure Otherworldly isn't as powerful as that. I think large size + flight is just fine.
I don't understand the point of comparing it with the Paladin's level 20 feature. To my understanding, Level 20 capstones are. usually different abilities than what one would get from completing a subclass. The Paladin is rather an exception to this. Finally, the subclass in format is modeled after the Hunter ranger and totem warrior barbarian. There aren't any real things that tie the twisted fate to a Paladin and frankly I don't like the comparison. I think we can do better than wings once per long, in comparison to other features.

Scarce

2015-10-14, 08:11 PM

I don't understand the point of comparing it with the Paladin's level 20 feature. To my understanding, Level 20 capstones are. usually different abilities than what one would get from completing a subclass. The Paladin is rather an exception to this. Finally, the subclass in format is modeled after the Hunter ranger and totem warrior barbarian. There aren't any real things that tie the twisted fate to a Paladin and frankly I don't like the comparison. I think we can do better than wings once per long, in comparison to other features.

This comparison is due to the fact that all paladin capstones are once per long rest states of increased strength which last for 1 minute, while the Twisted Fate capstone is a once per long rest state of increased strength which lasts for 1 minute.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-15, 02:42 AM

This comparison is due to the fact that all paladin capstones are once per long rest states of increased strength which last for 1 minute, while the Twisted Fate capstone is a once per long rest state of increased strength which lasts for 1 minute.
Sorry for my previous reaction, I'm aware that I can be a little moody sometimes...

Looking into the PHB, I don't think that it's reasonable to assess that a binder needs wings for one minute when a Paladin can get faster wings that last for 1 hour 3 levels later. If a Binder wants to fly, he can get more mileage from binding Geryon.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-16, 02:45 AM

Sorry I haven't been AS active in the last few days. I foolhardily volunteered to run a game for a bunch of me mates, and I plan to commit to it. so it's taking it's toll on creative energies. I'll still try to make everything fit, though.

Submortimer

2015-10-16, 11:59 AM

Prince Zahn

2015-10-16, 12:11 PM

Well, we now currently have finished versions of Sealed, Twisted, and Eldritch Fates. Eventually, I'll get to Unfettered fate, but for now, we should move forward with those three, since they are actually done. I don't want to loose too much steam with this project, lest it get mothballed.

I was baking and cooking all afternoon, and I don't really have the option to get cracking on the vestige Codex. (As it turns out it's all but impossible to do all that editing on a mobile device between the sheer number of tabs required, the less than supportive PC site, and the fact that I need to take extended breaks every time my battery needs to charge) so I save those for when I have a PC to type on.

I guess if I have this weekend with nothing to do I'll look to a smaller subproject. I'll figure something out, I just don't want to be lazy...:smalltongue::smallredface:

Prince Zahn

2015-10-16, 04:24 PM

In case you thought I was kidding when I said I won't leave it alone.

d100
Trinket

1
An inhuman tooth with markings carved upon it.

2
A dove's feather that is black and glossy on one side, and spotlessly white on the other

3
A brass monocle fit for a massive eye.

4
A vial with a thick green with a strange aroma reminiscent of blood.

5
A ceremonial knife that drips black liquid drops when nobody is looking.

6
Sheet music of an ancient ballad, that reads a different tune each time you read it.

7
A jar containing an elf's spleen.

8
A deck of cards with a painted eye on the back that stares at It's holder.

9
A red candle that could only br lit up on windy nights.

10
A blackened bone.

11
An urn filled with magenta-hued ashes

12
An foreign parchment with the word "Tenebrous" written all along it's contents.

13
A large lizard's tongue.

14
A noble outfit covered in blood stains that can't be cleaned.

15
A rusted iron gear that gives you Inexplicable confidence.

16
A small bag of colored sand.

17
A holy text with curse words crudely written all over it.

18
A banner with a strange symbol that only you can see.

19
A pendant shaped like a human eye that always seems to face it's holder.

20
The broken face of a porcelain doll.

21
A pewter cat figurine which everyone forgets about shortly after seeing it.

22
A map to a place both far away and very, very, near.

23
Several ivory claws from different animals in a glass vial which float in their container when shook.

24
A stone which oozes an unidentifiable substance from a single indent on its surface.

25
A wood-engraving relief print that depicts a humanoid labeled "Ipos" with unknown accuracy.

26
A mason jar ominously labeled "stirge creme"

27
Schematics detailing a monster of myth.

28
A tome with pages missing that contains precedings of dark arts.

29
Bottle filled with ink that is lighter than air.

30
A primate's hand on a chain with three fingers held up.

31
A wax, carved pumpkin.

32
A hat that occasionally produces sounds like a blowing wind.

33
A circular brass device, with glass on one side of it and marked with foreign symbols, that ticks with an eerie rhythm.

34
A bizarre insectoid specimen you have never seen before, preserved in a resin.

35
A small pine box, that, If you listen closely to it, you might sometimes hear the whispers of the damned.

36
A book of leaf pressings. Each of the staggering number of leaves appears to have a horrified human face formed by the veins and wrinkles.

37
A small mirror perpetually covered in greasy fingerprints from numerous creatures. Cleaning the mirror only reveals more prints beneath the originals.

38
A leather bound diary containing the transcript of the negotiations between an unnamed vestige and a binder.

39
A small figurine made aeons ago that unmistakably resembles you.

40
The last will of a figure recently deceased.

41
A set of spectacles that subtly distort how you see other creatures.

42
A twisted strand of hair with strange carved stone sigils knotted through its length.

43
A shard of rock covered in interlocking, bone-like fungus

44
A lump of coal.

45
Half a deck of mystic cards, each one having been ripped in two.

46
a wooden chalice etched with images of suffocating men.

47
A hand puppet of a rat with blank white stones for eyes

48
A scrap of cloth that is cold to the touch

49
a vial labeled "drink me" that you are saving for a special occasion.

50
a straw doll with a silver needle poking through it's foot.

51
a white glove.

52
a bar of fool's gold.

53
a small canvas picture of an otherworldly landscape.

54
a tea cup with a smiling face drawn on it.

55
a rusty arrow point.

56
an helm from a lost era.

57
An untitled eulogy that reminds you of someone you know.

58
a bat's wing.

59
a durable patch of scales with a hue like humanoid flesh.

60
a broken collar meant for a dog.

61
a small fish's tail on a bead chain.

62
a dream-catcher.

63
a quilt with patches illustrating generations of sorrow.

64
a corroded iron spike.

65
a clay hand holding an eyeball.

66
An obsidian grinning skull pendant with hollow eye sockets.

67

68

69

70

71

72

73

74

75

76

77

78

79

80

81

82

83

84

85

86

87

88

89

90

91

92

93

94

95

96

97

98

99

100

I'd like to get this done by Halloween, if at all possible
Thing is I am very much uninformed and outdated about what is "occult", " creepy ", " dark", et cetera. So I pretty much invite everyone to come up with up with stuff and pick a number. Though I'd like to reserve #95~#100 for the absolute coolest stuff. How that would be decided is up in the air right now.

Dos and Don'ts:
You can hint a trinket to resemble a potential magic item.
You can and should pay homage to vestiges when possible.
You can reference to other elements of occult, dark things and horror.
You can bring disturbing or creepy stuff, within lines of the forum rules. But only because Halloween's creeping closer.
Please don't make anything clearly magical.
Please don't knowingly steal from other trinket lists.
Please don't add anything overly expensive or large that any character can't conceivably pocket.
Please refrain from being too setting specific. It would be a waste to roll something that refers to details that likely don't exist in a common setting. As a matter of fact, being vague is probably better because everyone can make use of it the way they think is right better that way.

Other than that, have fun, go nuts.

Scarce

2015-10-18, 01:59 AM

This week has been soul-crushingly busy for me, but I managed to drunkenly write a few of these:

A pendant shaped like a human eye that always seems to follow your movements.

A humanoid tooth carved with an antediluvian rune of unknown meaning. You sometimes see the rune in your very dreams.

A pewter cat figurine which everyone forgets about shortly after seeing it.

A map to a place both far away and very, very, near.

Several ivory claws from different animals in a glass vial which levitate in their container when shook.

A stone which oozes an unidentifiable substance from a single indent on its surface.

A wood-engraving relief print assumed to depict the human form of Ipos or Dahlver-Nar.

A scrap of cloth, stained with blood, which is still bleeding.

This circular brass device, glass on one side and marked with foreign symbols, ticks with an eerie rhythm.

Squeezing this stone hard enough in one's hands causes it to vanish entirely into another plane for a number of seconds. When it returns, it is covered with a sheen of slime.

Preserved in resin, an insectoid specimen from aeons ago too alien to be of this earth.

When you listen closely to this pine box, you can sometimes hear the whispers of the damned.

A book of leaf pressings. Each of the staggering number of leaves appears to have a horrified human face formed by the veins and wrinkles.

A silver mirror perpetually covered in greasy fingerprints from numerous creatures. Cleaning the mirror only reveals more prints beneath the originals.

A leather bound diary containing the transcript of the negotiations between an unnamed vestige and a binder.

A gold piece minted in a long forgotten kingdom. Inscribed on its surface is the image of a king or magistrate of some import who looks unmistakably like you.

When I get some free-time, I'm going to actually build-test the binder at 5th level and then review the 4th level vestiges.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-18, 03:41 AM

Prince Zahn

2015-10-19, 09:56 AM

Current tally of the trinkets: 45/100

We're doing quite nicely, guys. :smallsmile:

Scarce

2015-10-20, 02:04 PM

Still working on the proper build-tests, but I did have the change to look at level 4 vestiges.

Karsus
- recognize vestiges easily (ribbon)
- detect magic (as ritual)
- prestidigitation
- dispel magic (2/long - scales)
- end a creature's attunement to a magic item (action - 1/long)

Savnok
- medium armor proficiency (heavy if already have medium)
- summon any armor you're proficient in (action)
- swap places with a small or medium creature (30 feet - action)
- death ward (1/day)
- movement speed is zero, and reduce damage by 3 until end of next turn (reaction)(heavy armor - reduce by 5)

Haures
- minor illusion and vicious mockery
- advantage against being charmed or having thoughts read (ribbon-ish)
- move through creatures and objects as difficult terrain (5 feet per round)
- major image (1/short)
- phantasmal killer (1/long)

Eurynome
- warhammer and greatclub proficiency
- shillelagh
- good at communicating with animals
- Your blood is a 2d10+poisoned condition injested poison
- walk on water + cause rain
- sleet storm 2/short (higher levels: sleet storm or control weather)
- conjure minor elementals (1/short) (higher levels: twice)

At level 4, the balance is all over the place again. Also, there's far less focus on what this level does, which is alright, since we're well into the 'binding multiple vestiges' stage of the class.

In general, Karsus is the weakest in the bunch. I know I gave it the thumbs up when Zahn released it, but now we have significantly more perspective. I'd do the following:

Arcanaclast
You have resistance to damage from spells.

Basic Arcana
You can cast prestidigitation, mage hand, and magic missile at will without a spell slot. You can also cast detect magic as a ritual.

Karusus's Null Magic feature really should be simplified, something along the lines of:

Null Magic
You can cast the spells dispel magic or counterspell without expending a spell slot or spell components as if using a spell slot equal to the highest level vestige you have available to cast. You can cast a spell in this manner twice, and regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest. At 12th level, you can cast this spell 3 times between rests, and at 19th level, you can cast this spell 4 times between rests.

Finally, I'd be a lot more happy with Mage Mind if it was made more concise.

Savnok's Armor probably needs to be rewritten. It works but it's a little unwieldy. Savnok is also missing a ribbon feature, which I'll work on soon.

Eurynome's Poisonous Blood is basically insane. Like, it's the ribbon-est ribbon and takes loads of description. How often are you going to be able to make someone drink your blood? How often will someone eat you whole? What's amazing is that even if you do manage to pull off one of these things, the effect and damage is still extremely negligible, especially since the target gets a saving throw.

It's weird that Water Frolic requires you to be walking on water in order to make it rain or make the rain stop. It could probably use rewording to avoid this strange requirement.

Twelvetrees

2015-10-24, 09:31 PM

*Hops back into the thread briefly, leaving behind a list*

Trinkets:

-A twisted strand of hair with strange carved stone sigils knotted through its length

-A shard of rock covered in interlocking, bone-like fungus

-A hand puppet of a rat with blank white stones for eyes

-Half a deck of tarot cards, each one having been ripped in two

-A scrap of cloth that smells of blood

-A set of pan pipes made of bone

Mith

2015-10-24, 09:56 PM

Submortimer

2015-10-24, 10:08 PM

Eurynome's Poisonous Blood is basically insane. Like, it's the ribbon-est ribbon and takes loads of description. How often are you going to be able to make someone drink your blood? How often will someone eat you whole? What's amazing is that even if you do manage to pull off one of these things, the effect and damage is still extremely negligible, especially since the target gets a saving throw.

I'd personally change it to allow you to take a point or two of unavoidable damage to apply your poison blood to your weapons.

Scarce

2015-10-25, 03:49 AM

I'd personally change it to allow you to take a point or two of unavoidable damage to apply your poison blood to your weapons.
I really like that approach, actually. Basically, make it a way to apply free poison (as in the item, not the damage or condition) to your weapons as a bonus action, while you take 1d4-1d6 damage each time.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-25, 04:06 AM

I really like that approach, actually. Basically, make it a way to apply free poison (as in the item, not the damage or condition) to your weapons as a bonus action, while you take 1d4-1d6 damage each time.

That does sound like a better idea.:smallsmile:
My only issue is the "take damage to deal damage" part. Cost for effect doesn't sound very 5e to me, perhaps with the exception of the barbarian, who is supposed to be a reckless warrior by design.

Perhaps we could borrow something closer to 4e's "bloodied" condition by saying that you can add the poison damage to your attacks while you have less than half of your hit point maximum.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-26, 05:46 AM

Trinket idea: A small mask the size of a coin with the right halve being black obsidian form in the shape of half a face with a closed eye and neutral face. The left side of the mask is made of ivory and is shape in the form of a grinning skull with an hollow eye socket.

A bit too wordy I know.

I hope you don't mind if I changd it into some kind of grinning skull necklace, for both brevity and because there is no shortage of masks nor coins.

5 days until Halloween, 34 Trinkets to go! We can do this!

Mith

2015-10-26, 07:59 AM

That works. I was originally envisioning a mask, but I currently have a mask sitting on my desk, and it is not something one can "easily pocket". Amulet works just as well.

Submortimer

2015-10-26, 10:27 AM

That does sound like a better idea.:smallsmile:
My only issue is the "take damage to deal damage" part. Cost for effect doesn't sound very 5e to me, perhaps with the exception of the barbarian, who is supposed to be a reckless warrior by design.

Perhaps we could borrow something closer to 4e's "bloodied" condition by saying that you can add the poison damage to your attacks while you have less than half of your hit point maximum.

How about "While bound to Eurynome, you may choose to have your weapons deal additional poison damage. If you do, you gain one level of exhaustion when you unbind from Eurynome"

Or something like that.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-26, 10:57 AM

How about "While bound to Eurynome, you may choose to have your weapons deal additional poison damage. If you do, you gain one level of exhaustion when you unbind from Eurynome"

Or something like that.
The thing is that exhaustion is a pretty big deal in this edition. It's not a simple condition to handle, it's effects are debilitating and take a long time to recover from. It's also a condition that gets much harsher if you don't take it seriously. (It also will pretty much guarantee that tomorrow's pacts will be poor 9 times out of 10) If something is to cause a level of exhaustion, it needs to be a major effect. If that effect is poison damage, it needs to be a lot of it. enough poison damage for people to risk exhaustion.

Submortimer

2015-10-26, 04:04 PM

The thing is that exhaustion is a pretty big deal in this edition. It's not a simple condition to handle, it's effects are debilitating and take a long time to recover from. It's also a condition that gets much harsher if you don't take it seriously. (It also will pretty much guarantee that tomorrow's pacts will be poor 9 times out of 10) If something is to cause a level of exhaustion, it needs to be a major effect. If that effect is poison damage, it needs to be a lot of it. enough poison damage for people to risk exhaustion.

Its not quite as bad as you're thinking it is. You remove one level of exhaustion following a long rest, which would happen at the same time as you unbind eurynome; all this does is cause problems for people that want to renegotiate eurynome's pact.

Prince Zahn

2015-10-26, 04:10 PM

How about "While bound to Eurynome, you may choose to have your weapons deal additional poison damage. If you do, you gain one level of exhaustion When you unbind from Eurynome"
Your words, not mine.
Unless your cleric is kind enough to spare a spell on it, you will spend your entire next day with that level of exhaustion, until you take another long rest.
Exhaustion is a tricky condition that doesn't even have a duration in the traditional sense, I would rather not work with it unless the ability offers something big in return.

Submortimer

2015-10-27, 12:59 AM

Your words, not mine.
Unless your cleric is kind enough to spare a spell on it, you will spend your entire next day with that level of exhaustion, until you take another long rest.
Exhaustion is a tricky condition that doesn't even have a duration in the traditional sense, I would rather not work with it unless the ability offers something big in return.

Exhaustion has a duration: you get rid of one level every time you take a long rest. Unbinding from your vestiges and bedding down for the night conceivably takes place at the beginning of your long rest, when you'd get the level of exhaustion, and then you take your long rest, getting rid of it. I'm not sure what the disconnect here is.

In any case, it was only a suggestion. Ignore it, use it whatever you want.

Scarce

2015-10-30, 06:04 PM

Hopefully I'll be spending a lit more time on this project soon. Until then, a few more trinkets:

A wooden horse, hand-whittled, which begins normally at the front, but twists and contorts into something else by its rear.

An ivory-white, empty coffer. Tapping on the top sometimes echoes back a tapped response from inside.

A sundered lich's phylactery.

An large, jagged arrowhead stained with blood. No amount of washing can remove the blood.

A number of pages ripped from the holy book of a deity of light, scribbled over in heavy ink. These pages detail the principle sins against that god.

A scroll detailing the life and death of the Walker in the Waste, a desert-borne lich of some import.

A monocle that appears completely opaque. It's unclear what, if anything, can be seen through it.

An empty vial that once contained holy water and symbol the crest of a major religious faith. A persistent foul odor is contained within.

A horn perpetually out of tune, as if designed to please inhuman ears.

Scarce

2015-11-01, 05:35 PM

I'm back, guys! I'm gonna focus on balancing vestige levels. I had quite a few suggestions on Karsus, so I decided to compile the changes into a rewrite:

Karsus
Hubris in the Blood
4th Level Vestige

Arcanaclast
You have resistance to damage from spells.

Basic Arcana
You can cast prestidigitation, mage hand, and magic missile at will without a spell slot. You can also cast detect magic as a ritual

Gift of Karsus
While you are bound to Karsus, attuning yourself to a magic item takes only 1 minute of the appropriate activity. You must still meet other prerequisites the item may have to attune to it.

Mage Mind
For as long as you remain bound to Karsus, you can instantly recognize a vestige's seal if you can see it, and also learn the vestige's title. You still must learn the vestige's name in order to summon it.
Additionally, you have advantage on Arcana checks pertaining to vestiges.

Null Magic
You can cast the spells dispel magic or counterspell without expending a spell slot or spell components as if using a spell slot equal to the highest level vestige you have available to bind. You can cast a spell in this manner twice, and regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest. At 12th level, you can cast this spell 3 times between rests, and at 19th level, you can cast this spell 4 times between rests.

Severing Touch
You can sever the attunement between a creature and a magic item with a touch. To do so, make a spell attack against a creature wearing or holding the item within your reach. On a hit, the attunement between the targeted magic item and any creatures within 100 feet immediately ends.

JNAProductions

2015-11-01, 06:50 PM

Jiminy christmas!

So where's the actual playable part of this class?

Scarce

2015-11-01, 09:46 PM

Jiminy christmas!

So where's the actual playable part of this class?

The class chassis is (to my knowledge) up to date in the first post of this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430658-PEACH-Fifth-Edition-Binder-Class-II-(Still-WIP)).

The Sealed Fate and Eldritch Fate subclasses are here.
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19884788&postcount=318)
The Twisted Fate subclass is here.
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19939824&postcount=413)
The Occult Fate subclass is here.
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19913446&postcount=388)
And the Vestige Codex is cool through 2nd level.
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430663-Prince-Zahn-s-Vestige-Codex-(5e-Binder))
(3rd level vestiges are good as well, but haven't been included in the Codex yet. Paimon is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19909809&postcount=376). Primus is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19835642&postcount=209). Xanathar is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19805381&postcount=143). And Focalor needs a final rewrite, so it's not quite ready, though we've made quite a few decisions on what to do with it.)

Scarce

2015-11-05, 12:08 AM

Focalor
Prince of Tears
3rd Level Vestige

Aquatic
While bound to Focalor, you can breathe both water and air. Additionally, you gain a swim speed equal to your movement speed and have advantage on all Athletics checks made to swim.

Aura of Despair
When you begin your turn, each creature you choose within 5 feet of you must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, a creature is overcome with grief and, until the beginning of your next turn, cannot take bonus actions and has disadvantage on all saving throws.

Electrifying Touch
You gain the shocking grasp cantrip.

Spark Gap
When you cast a spell which deals lightning damage to a single creature, you can cause the charge to jump to a nearby target. A creature you choose within 5 feet of the damaged creature must make a Dexterity saving throw or take half the lightning damage inflicted.

Inestimable Grief
While you display Focalor's sign, the sorrow that paints both your visage and your spirit makes you difficult to read. Insight or Perception checks attempting to discern your emotions or intentions have disadvantage, and you have advantage on saves against detect thoughts or similar effects that would read your mind.

Focalor's Breath
By exhaling deeply, you can cast blindness/deafness without expending a spell slot. After using this feature, you must complete a short or long rest before using it again.

Lightning Bolt
You can cast lightning bolt without expending a spell slot or spell components. After using this feature, you must complete a long rest before using it again.
(EDIT: Dropped lighnting resistance for now)

I decided to implement a few changes on Focalor that Spiriah and I talked about. If he's still around, I'd like to hear his opinion on this one.

Edit: Also edited Savnok (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19758053&postcount=72), rewriting Savnok’s Armor (again) and giving him a physical sign.

Prince Zahn

2015-11-05, 02:07 AM

Uwah I've been absent for a while O. let me try to catch up in brief points:

I like the new Karsus. I would rephrase Null Magic though to make it more on tune with a 5e text.
I'm also hesitant about unlimited chances to sever attunement as I don't know just how strong that is.

I need to find a time to fix up the vestige codex. Do we have final-ish updates of the 3rd level vestiges for me to embed?

I have a feeling this Focalor has a lot of features. Is this a necessary evil or are there features we could omit/shorten/give to another vestige/etc.?

I'll look over Savnok later.

Gotta run guys! I'm still around!

Scarce

2015-11-05, 10:51 AM

I like the new Karsus. I would rephrase Null Magic though to make it more on tune with a 5e text.

Not sure what you mean on this; I tried pretty hard to put it in line with 5e style.

I'm also hesitant about unlimited chances to sever attunement as I don't know just how strong that is.

I'm convinced this feature is somewhere in between a ribbon feature and access to a cantrip in terms of power. This feature is only going to be useful against a subset of enemies, those which are attuned to a magic item. This might be more common when you're facing almost exclusively NPCs with character sheets, but far more monsters in the Monster Manual are incapable of using magic items, so it seems that it'll be useful in uncommon situations. Also, it requires you to get close and make an attack roll, which might be a strong hindrance based on the situation.

I need to find a time to fix up the vestige codex. Do we have final-ish updates of the 3rd level vestiges for me to embed?

Following the changes we make to Focalor, 3rd level vestiges are pretty complete.

I have a feeling this Focalor has a lot of features. Is this a necessary evil or are there features we could omit/shorten/give to another vestige/etc.?

Two of the features, Aquatic and Inestimable Grief, are basically ribbons, but they fulfill important class themes. Electrifying Touch could maybe be cut, but that leaves this vestige without any passive damage options. I could also cut Focalor's Breath, since it doesn't really fit the themes concisely, but it's nice having a 1/short feature

Prince Zahn

2015-11-05, 11:38 AM

Not sure what you mean on this; I tried pretty hard to put it in line with 5e style. mostly the parts where the ability mentions rests. I don't think I've ever read WotC unify the rests or day that something functions "between rests" into a single term. It was always short rests, long rests, or either as far as I've noticed. Or that you regain uses when you finish a ______ rest.
It's just a technical error, almost foolish that I'm making a deal of it. Worst case scenario, If it's not addressed I'll probably take care of those things when I type Karsus into the Codex.

I'm convinced this feature is somewhere in between a ribbon feature and access to a cantrip in terms of power. This feature is only going to be useful against a subset of enemies, those which are attuned to a magic item. This might be more common when you're facing almost exclusively NPCs with character sheets, but far more monsters in the Monster Manual are incapable of using magic items, so it seems that it'll be useful in uncommon situations. Also, it requires you to get close and make an attack roll, which might be a strong hindrance based on the situation. I don't know about a ribbon or a cantrip, but it's certainly situational. And in a campaign where enemy NPCs have magic loot, you'll be glad to be able to take the good magic item abilities out of the equation. For the record, It has happened to my groups numerous times that the DM's boss was a powerful NPC with a magic weapon or similar that to survive him we had to minimize the destructive capabilities of bhis weapon. I'm really glad to have such spells handy when DM's pull out the final fantasy villain with the magic truck-sized broadsword :smalltongue:

Following the changes we make to Focalor, 3rd level vestiges are pretty complete.

Two of the features, Aquatic and Inestimable Grief, are basically ribbons, but they fulfill important class themes. Electrifying Touch could maybe be cut, but that leaves this vestige without any passive damage options. I could also cut Focalor's Breath, since it doesn't really fit the themes concisely, but it's nice having a 1/short feature
What if we took off Lightning resistance, and merged 1/short Lightning built with the shocking grasp?
Hand of Lightning
You gain the Shocking Grasp cantrip. Also, you can cast Lightning bolt once. You can not cast it again until you finish a long rest.
It also occurred to me that saying "without expending a spell slot" after every spell when referring to a class that doesn't have spell slots is rather redundant. If something requires you to spend a spell slot, it usually mentions that in it's description (for spellcasters, this is their spellcasting feature) for other features, there's another cost or limitation. I might have seen those words once on an invocation, but they are unnecessary when the Binder is not a spellcaster.

Scarce

2015-11-05, 12:54 PM

mostly the parts where the ability mentions rests. I don't think I've ever read WotC unify the rests or day that something functions "between rests" into a single term. It was always short rests, long rests, or either as far as I've noticed. Or that you regain uses when you finish a ______ rest.
It's just a technical error, almost foolish that I'm making a deal of it. Worst case scenario, If it's not addressed I'll probably take care of those things when I type Karsus into the Codex.

'Between rests' is used in the cleric Channel Divinity feature. It's legit.

I don't know about a ribbon or a cantrip, but it's certainly situational.
Situational ~= not powerful. Besides, whats the point of reducing the power down to once per rest if its unlikely that you'll be ambushed by 1 artifact-wielding badguy, let alone two?

What if we took off Lightning resistance, and merged 1/short Lightning built with the shocking grasp?
Hand of Lightning
You gain the Shocking Grasp cantrip. Also, you can cast Lightning bolt once. You can not cast it again until you finish a long rest.
I can drop lightning resistance, no problem, but we should keep cantrips to their own features, for readability's sake.

It also occurred to me that saying "without expending a spell slot" after every spell when referring to a class that doesn't have spell slots is rather redundant. If something requires you to spend a spell slot, it usually mentions that in it's description (for spellcasters, this is their spellcasting feature) for other features, there's another cost or limitation. I might have seen those words once on an invocation, but they are unnecessary when the Binder is not a spellcaster.
Well, the phrase 'without expending a spell slot' is plastered all over the warlock invocations and also shows up in the cleric and wizard classes, so it's hardly unused. However, I might agree with you that its redundant for non-spellcaster to use it, but that's just the problem - the Binder does get spell slots in a subclass. Therefore, I think it's wise to keep the wording in, for the sake of clarity.

Prince Zahn

2015-11-05, 01:45 PM

Situational ~= not powerful. Besides, whats the point of reducing the power down to once per rest if its unlikely that you'll be ambushed by 1 artifact-wielding badguy, let alone two? the thing is I can't prove whether magic items are unlikely in any given campaign. In previous editions you could count on it, and game tables who like that will probably still do that. In this edition they make no promises on magic items even existing in a given campaign, let alone how common or rare they might be, which complicates assessing this feature's strength. Karsus is one of those options who is fantastic if you have a campaign that suits it's basic assumptions, and could be pointless when those assumptions aren't met (in this case: these assumptions are a campaign with spellcasters, magic items and potential enemies that put them to use). I don't imagine that these are far fetched situations, even if there is not 100% guarantee they will be met in a given campaign.

I can drop lightning resistance, no problem, but we should keep cantrips to their own features, for readability's sake. perhaps I misspoke, the lightning resistance isn't what's bothering me, but rather I'm worried about the lemgth and bulk. A binder gains a rather large amount of abilities all in all. I'm beginning to worry it might even be too many. It might require some thought to get it to a more normal amount of abilities at higher levels.

Well, the phrase 'without expending a spell slot' is plastered all over the warlock invocations and also shows up in the cleric and wizard classes, so it's hardly unused. However, I might agree with you that its redundant for non-spellcaster to use it, but that's just the problem - the Binder does get spell slots in a subclass. Therefore, I think it's wise to keep the wording in, for the sake of clarity.[/QUOTE] the fighter also has a subclass that gives him arcane spells. I can't envision making a spell as a fighter option and add "cast without using a spell slot".

Also: Mortimer, What do you think on the matter?

Submortimer

2015-11-05, 04:09 PM

perhaps I misspoke, the lightning resistance isn't what's bothering me, but rather I'm worried about the lemgth and bulk. A binder gains a rather large amount of abilities all in all. I'm beginning to worry it might even be too many. It might require some thought to get it to a more normal amount of abilities at higher levels.

Honestly, I don't think this will end up being a problem. Binders ate fiddly, with lots of moving parts...that's part of thier charm.

Well, the phrase 'without expending a spell slot' is plastered all over the warlock invocations and also shows up in the cleric and wizard classes, so it's hardly unused. However, I might agree with you that its redundant for non-spellcaster to use it, but that's just the problem - the Binder does get spell slots in a subclass. Therefore, I think it's wise to keep the wording in, for the sake of clarity. the fighter also has a subclass that gives him arcane spells. I can't envision making a spell as a fighter option and add "cast without using a spell slot".

Also: Mortimer, What do you think on the matter?

It's petty simple: the phase "cast without using a spell slot" has replaced "cast at will" for 5e. Any place where you get an ability that allows you to cast a spell "at will", use the phrase "without using a spell slot".

Scarce

2015-11-05, 09:05 PM

the thing is I can't prove whether magic items are unlikely in any given campaign. In previous editions you could count on it, and game tables who like that will probably still do that. In this edition they make no promises on magic items even existing in a given campaign, let alone how common or rare they might be, which complicates assessing this feature's strength. Karsus is one of those options who is fantastic if you have a campaign that suits it's basic assumptions, and could be pointless when those assumptions aren't met (in this case: these assumptions are a campaign with spellcasters, magic items and potential enemies that put them to use). I don't imagine that these are far fetched situations, even if there is not 100% guarantee they will be met in a given campaign.

There are still a few reasonable assessments we can make about magic items. Because not very many creatures in the Monster Manual can use them, it stands to reason that a minority of encounters will include them on enemies. Also, most Dungeon Master's will avoid including them in frequent encounters, as this tends to weigh the party down in magic loot. After all, magic items are supposed to be special. It should be strange if you encounter dozens of creatures using magic items.

There's plenty of potential for them to show up, but this feature is situational. On top of that, you need to get in close, and you're required to make an attack roll for the feature to work. Making this at will was an obvious decision.

perhaps I misspoke, the lightning resistance isn't what's bothering me, but rather I'm worried about the lemgth and bulk. A binder gains a rather large amount of abilities all in all. I'm beginning to worry it might even be too many. It might require some thought to get it to a more normal amount of abilities at higher levels.

I have a couple of thoughts on this from build-testing. Most often, binders with access to nth level vestiges will pick 1 nth level vestige and 1 (n-1)th level vestige. If they don't, then they have the option to select a number of lower level vestiges, normally up to their maximum vestige limit. The former is more restricted, with more raw power, while the latter is more versatile, with lower level abilities.

However, provided that the features are very clear and simple (if you can easily describe it in a few words, it probably fits into this category), the number of features almost doesn't matter. They can be listed and easily understood, so they are very easy to manage.

I think all of Focalor's features are very simple and easy to understand. I'd much rather have 7 easy to understand features, than 4 complex ones.

Scarce

2015-11-09, 12:37 AM

So my goal isn't to rewrite every vestige, but I noticed that some of Eurynome's features would have been easier to implement as spells cast at will. Plus, people aren't posting super often, so I decided to go for it.

Eurynome
Mother of the Material
4th Level Vestige

Bonus Proficiencies
You gain proficiency with mauls and morningstars.

Animal Friend
You can cast the spell speak with animals at will and have advantage on Animal Handling checks and Diplomacy checks dealing with beasts.

Shillelagh
You can cast the cantrip shillelagh at will.

Poison Blood
While bound to Eurynome, you have resistance to poison damage and cannot be poisoned. Additionally, you can, as a bonus action, take 1d4 slashing damage to coat one slashing or piercing weapon or up to three pieces of ammunition with your poisonous blood. A creature hit by the poisoned weapon or ammunition must make a Constitution saving throw or take 1d6 poison damage. Once applied, the poison retains potency for 1 minute before drying.

Water Frolic
You can cast the spells create or destroy water and water walk at will.

Rain Dancing
You can cast sleet storm without a spell slot or spell components. After casting this spell, you must complete a short or long rest before casting it again.

Servants of the Sea and Sky
You may cast the spell conjure minor elementals once without expending a spell slot. Once you have cast the spell in this fashion, you may not do so again until you complete a long rest.

OR

As a bonus action, you can summon forth a Maul of the Titans for 1 minute. After summoning this weapon, you must complete a long rest before summoning it again.
Maul of the Titans. You gain a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with this maul, a magic weapon.
When you roll a 20 on an attack roll made with this weapon, the target takes an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage, and must make a DC 14 Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the beginning of your next turn.
Two options for the once/long ability. Lemme know what you think.

I know there was some debate between effects on poison blood, but I decided to go with a damage trade thing. It's not used in 5e anywhere, but I also don't think it's anathema to its design either. Also, I hate using exhaustion effects in my own campaign, so I try to steer clear of them.

On scaling spells:
Also, I stripped out the scaling spell stuff, which I can put back in, but I wanted to discuss it as a general vestige thing before I did. This is something Zahn practiced a lot in the earlier days of this class in order to keep spells cast by vestiges relevant at higher level, but I'm not convinced that it's a good approach. This always makes features significantly more complicated if not outright difficult to read. Plus, is almost always violates my summarize-it-in-one-sentence rule.

Besides, I'm not sure I see the point of trying to make lower-level vesitges more desirable to bind through this method. Binders will be incentivized to bind lower level vestiges already in order to get a higher number of vestiges total, rather than binding two higher-level vestiges and being done. If some vestiges grant higher level spells with binder level, this throws off the vestige level cost, and makes them more desirable than the other vestiges at their level. To clarify what I mean by this, it's useful to think about the level of spells granted to a binder as being in step with that of a wizard. Wizards get one or two of their highest level spell, maximum, per long rest. A binder can bind one of his highest level vestiges, and it normally has a 1/long ability that allows him to cast a spell of that level, exactly the same level as a wizard can. If lower-level vestiges offer higher level spells with binder level, a binder could get more spells of high level each day with lower cost, messing up the predictable level-incentive dynamic.

Ideally, each vestige should have some niche that is unique to them, which should be able to make them viable in some situation. For example, Naberius is the go-to in social situations, and Aym breaks objects. Other things, like Ipos's Influence simply won't become irrelevant at higher levels. I think poison blood will be Eurynome's staying feature.

Scarce

2015-11-09, 01:43 PM

At 4th level, we nearly forgot Kas! (Find him here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19820503&postcount=180).) That being said, we are going to have 5 vestiges at 4th level, which breaks our nice pretty symmetry.

Kas
- longsword and shortsword proficiency
- longsword is magic and can deal necrotic damage
- ignore undead damage resistances
- ignore half of critical hits that hit you
- Always roll 10 or higher or Deception checks
- On attack, target makes Con save or is blinded until end of your next turn (1/long)

Here's the big question: Does Kas belong at 4th level? He actually strikes me as pretty weak, as, at a glance, he's basically outclassed by Submortimer's paimon. It seems like he might need some extra damage features. Here's a few options:
Dueling fighting style
A maneuver or two
A flat damage increase on Black Blade (make it a +1 weapon, that later becomes a +2)
Add Cha mod to damage with Black Blade.

Thoughts?

Prince Zahn

2015-11-12, 07:58 AM

Okay, I'm going to try to address all the stuff since my last post. Forgive me if it is not chronologically sorted:

3 things don't sit with me on Kas (not that I knew who he was before you posted up the vestige): saying you ignore DR doesn't sit with me, because the main defenses are Resistances - and either you have them or you don't. I think it could be solved by removing the word "damage" before resistance, we must keep wording relevant.
Also: see if you could make the legend any briefer, that would be appreciated. And lastly the vestige has an influence that in a short sentence that the binder will betray my teammates in a heartbeat if something better comes along. This is poisonous, I vote to change it into something that won't make the mere act of binding Kas a betrayal against your fellow players.
I think the main thing that sets Old and New Paimon over the line is the fact that we're handing out haste. If it were up to me I would have kept the sub-CS mechanic instead. Even though my spell-less Paimon fell rather short, I still maintain that removing spells from Paimon is a wise decision.
How about taking a more defensive/tanky approach As a feature that deals Necrotic damage to your attacker. Or alternatively when someone within 5 feet of you attacks somebody else?

Alternatively, the dueling combat style sounds cool. That being said, I do think we should be careful how many combat styles we hand out, just because it's possible to get a LOT of them.

On adding further incentive to lower level vestiges:
I fully agree with you that scaling options are not the ideal approach: it is clunky, space consuming and requires extra bookkeeping (how many parts of this feature apply at this level?/do I get this improvement yet? Etc.)
With that said, low level vestiges being desireable at higher levels is important to me. Covering a particular niche won't strictly cut it when you have the vestige active for a whole day. High level play can get pretty cutthroat when it comes to power, even in 5e. I don't concern myself with their role as space fillers, even though I would be rather insulted if that was their only purpose down the line. I want a player to want the vestiges they are used to just as much as I want to tempt them with a stronger powers. I want to be able to write a story arc about a an early level vestige that would be relevant even by 7-11th level, and that players won't sigh about it just because it's a low level vestige. I felt this same way when we discussed the Sealed Fate and his patron. The more reasons I can name for a player to make a big deal out of a lower level vestige - the better IMO.

AS FOR WHAT WE COULD DO ABOUT IT, perhaps we could simplify it by removing the scaling, and in it's stead making 1 feature that is only available 6-8 levels after you have access to that vestige. I feel we brought it up before but I may have dismissed it at the time. Do you think something like that would help meet both my interests and yours?

@Eurynome: I think the extra damage mechanic would both be simpler and more desireable if the cost/requirement was to be below half your maximum HP.
when in danger, Your blood turns to a deadly toxin which covers your weaponry. While you have less than half of your maximum HP, your weapon attacks deal an additional (#d#) poison damage.
EDIT overall, I like this Eurynome better, it's briefer. I had hesitations on giving a magic maul like in 3.5 and settled for Shillelagh. It was kind of a mistake but I'm not sure how to approach it better. I would rather steer against a magic item but at the same time support the concept of granting hammerspace. Your thoughts?:smalltongue:

More to come. Got to finish work first!

Prince Zahn

2015-11-12, 11:20 AM

@number of powers
I think you might be on to something, Scarce. Something that no matter how I look at it, I can't argue with: it doesn't really matter how many vestiges a binder gets, just as long as A: the vestige is balanced overall compared to others of his level, and B: it won't be confusing to have too many. I thought for a long time that there was a magic number of features but I'm getting to rethink that, except for the notion that he might get too many. Having EVERY vestige give 6 is ludicrous. Expecting EVERY vestige to have the SAME amount of features is just as prepostrous, (or at least very, very difficult) which is why any template we would make would not work for everything - there are too many moving parts to expect that. I think the best thing we could do with that is just use our best judgement. Fie on the templates!
I hate to make more work for everybody, but I'm genuinely considering stripping the Chassis from non-essentials anyway. I'll let you know if that goes anywhere but I've been thinking about it for a while.

IN OTHER NEWS:
RL is a little difficult lately. Work has gotten harder, My friends are pressuring me into running an adventure for them, which is taking a lot of thought and energy from me. And I've had further responsibilities at home since everyone but me had evening shifts all the time and somebody has to be around to take care of the pets. It's also cause for frustration because I'm used to going out of town a few times a week and that's not an option anymore. :/ I need to straighten things out, but I'm not out of this project and I'm not on hiatus. I just need time to catch my breath, even though I'm still here and listening.

I can't think of anything more to say, so for now we may proceed.

Scarce

2015-11-12, 01:31 PM

saying you ignore DR doesn't sit with me, because the main defenses are Resistances

Um, they're called Damage Resistances according to every monster stat block. Also, I've shortened the legend and played with the influences.

I think the main thing that sets Old and New Paimon over the line is the fact that we're handing out haste. If it were up to me I would have kept the sub-CS mechanic instead. Even though my spell-less Paimon fell rather short, I still maintain that removing spells from Paimon is a wise decision.
How about taking a more defensive/tanky approach As a feature that deals Necrotic damage to your attacker. Or alternatively when someone within 5 feet of you attacks somebody else?

The reason Paimon stands out to me is that it has a pretty fantastic damage output, where Kas does not. Paimon sets a standard with its +1d8 on one attack each round, compared to which which level 4 vestiges should be able to objectively be better. Reccomendation: Paimon's Dance of Death should deal d6s, and only work when you make an attack with slashing weapons.

I think about Kas as a melee offensive vestige for the most part; his entire thing is that he carved off the Hand and Eye of Vecna. Offense seems like his thing. For that reason, I need a damage increase in order to keep in step with Paimon. For now, I'll just give him +Cha to damage on attacks with the Black Blade, since I don't see Kas dueling as much as fighting with sword and shield.

perhaps we could simplify it by removing the scaling, and in it's stead making 1 feature that is only available 6-8 levels after you have access to that vestige. I feel we brought it up before but I may have dismissed it at the time. Do you think something like that would help meet both my interests and yours?

I'm not a huge fan of gating features for that long.

This is just something we need to be cautious of as we edit our vestiges; each vestige should have features which don't depend on level which will be as good at level 20 as they are when they're awarded. Not every vestige can -or should- award different spells at higher levels in order to stay competitive. A second level vestige should provide at maximum 2nd level spells, because it's what it says on the tin. It costs 2 vestige levels when you're negotiating, so it's suitably cheap when you get to higher levels, and, if we've designed the non-spell features correctly, it will still be desirable when you get to higher levels. As I'm editing vestiges, I'll be making an effort to eliminate complicated scaling spells and add more interesting, non-level-dependent features.

@Eurynome: I think the extra damage mechanic would both be simpler and more desireable if the cost/requirement was to be below half your maximum HP.
when in danger, Your blood turns to a deadly toxin which covers your weaponry. While you have less than half of your maximum HP, your weapon attacks deal an additional (#d#) poison damage.

EDIT overall, I like this Eurynome better, it's briefer. I had hesitations on giving a magic maul like in 3.5 and settled for Shillelagh. It was kind of a mistake but I'm not sure how to approach it better. I would rather steer against a magic item but at the same time support the concept of granting hammerspace. Your thoughts?:smalltongue:

I'm kinda iffy on this implementation of Venomous Blood for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I think there's a weak connection to your hit points and your poisoned weapons unless you provide some method for which your weapons get your blood on them, so dealing a small amount of damage was a natural fit. Also, I feel like the extra damage is something you should be able to get at all times, not just when you're about to die. It's significantly less desirable to get additional melee damage when you're low on health because that exactly when you try to get out of melee.h

I could go either way with them magic weapons route, which is why I've included both of the features, but I think I have some pretty major problems with the vestige as a whole:

On Eurynome:
Eurynome is briefer, but I still don't think it's finished. My biggest problem Eurynome in general is that it's trying to focus on too many things at one time. I like the vestiges to focus on one or two things maximum, but Eurynome tries to be about sea and sky, poison, befriending animals, and heavy melee weapons. It too much. Tenebrous, in contrast, has significantly more complex mechanics, but it's much more understandable, because it all works for a cohesive thematic whole. Eurynome, on the other hand, needs entire parts cut for this vestige to be understood on a thematic level.

It definitely needs a rewrite, following a clarification down to one or two themes. I'm tempted to propose that we cut Eurynome altogether, not because anyone's implementation was poor, but because Eurynome feels like a poor addition to the 3.5 binder. It just contributes a lot to the binder being a dense thing to read.

(Edit: This reminds me that Haagenti needs a rewrite to consolidate her themes, because she too is all over the place.)

Scarce

2015-11-12, 01:36 PM

On Templates/features in general:
For most of the development of the vestiges, we've mostly used the template as more of a guideline, and the newly revised Focalor is a good example of that.
On an abstract level, Focalor gets:
A cantrip (shocking grasp)
A flavor (ribbon) feature (tough to read because of saddness)
A situational exploration feature (aquatic/underwater environments)
A defensive feature (nearby target makes save or has minor debuff)
A general-purpose (just good) feature (lightning damage jumps to nearby targets)
A short rest spell (blindness/deafness)
A long rest spell (lightning bolt)

Focalor seems to have more features than normal, but all of its features fall into the same categories that other vestiges borrow from.

This is pretty similar to a template that was proposed early in this class's design. I think that some of these types of features are optional, and others are necessary. If I formalized this into a template, it would look like the following:

Select no more than 2 themes that the vestige should follow. All features should incorporate these themes both in flavor and mechanics.
Features should be concise, easy to understand, and discrete (performing a single process or effect.)

The main categories of features are as follows. Omitting a recommended feature is allowed, but should only be done intentionally to support a vestige's themes.

Bonus Proficiencies (optional)
Cantrip (optional - recommended for a 1st level vestige)
Ribbon - for exploration (optional)
Ribbon - for interaction (optional)
Defensive Feature (recommended)
At-will Abilities (recommended) + General Purpose Feature (recommended)
Short Rest Feature (recommended)
Long Rest Feature (recommended)

Prince Zahn

2015-11-12, 02:38 PM

Scarce

2015-11-12, 03:04 PM

I like your guidelines, I'll give them an experiment with Andromalius over the weekend, we seem to have completely forgotten about him as we got swept into talking subclasses... (Or at least, I don't see him anywhere) hopefully this time we really will have an Andromalius.:smalltongue:
To my knowledge, noone has made Andromalius yet, but I fail to see how we can make him work. After all, we already have a low-level rogue-like vestige in Malphas (which I think works really well.) You're more than welcome to work on it, but I think it would be wiser to focus on trying to balance the vestiges, rather than creating new ones.

I am very much opposed to ditching Eurynome. She may not be the most popular vestige, but I liked her. And I can't be the only one. I think it was just a matter that her features didn't cut it in 3.5.
What if we redesigned her from the bottom up? I'm interested to know what mythology has to say about her because I'm certainly not educated on it even though I clearly see there's some wikipedia entry about her as an oceanid.:smallredface:
This could mean more work on her design but that's kinda what the workshop is for.:smalltongue:
Her mythology doesn't exist beyond her D&D entry. They borrowed her name from real-world mythology, as they did with all the original vestiges presented in Tome of Magic, but she has no relation to any real-life legendary characters. Moreover, if we rewrote her concept from the bottom-up, it wouldn't be Eurynome anymore. Our current problem is that the vestige, even in 3.5, has a scant legend which informs a scattered series of themes, which makes her tough to understand conceptually and mechanically. You can't save this vestige without changing everything about her; then what's the point of keeping her? All you've done is create an original character.

Prince Zahn

2015-11-12, 03:14 PM

To my knowledge, noone has made Andromalius yet, but I fail to see how we can make him work. After all, we already have a low-level rogue-like vestige in Malphas (which I think works really well.) You're more than welcome to work on it, but I think it would be wiser to focus on trying to balance the vestiges, rather than creating new ones.
If Andromalius is the only one left, my OCD will do worse than a little extra work could ever do.

Her mythology doesn't exist beyond her D&D entry. They borrowed her name from real-world mythology, as they did with all the original vestiges presented in Tome of Magic, but she has no relation to any real-life legendary characters. Moreover, if we rewrote her concept from the bottom-up, it wouldn't be Eurynome anymore. Our current problem is that the vestige, even in 3.5, has a scant legend which informs a scattered series of themes, which makes her tough to understand conceptually and mechanically. You can't save this vestige without changing everything about her; then what's the point of keeping her? All you've done is create an original character.I was actually suggesting deliberately going back to the real-world mythological roots and building off of it. What ToM did with her was create an original character (I don't think Eurynome was ever anything like the mutant she is in the book) I'm suggesting to adapt a version of the vestige that might work better for us than the ToM Eurynome.

Mith

2015-11-12, 03:42 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurynome_(Oceanid)was an Oceanid in Greek myths or a daughter of Oceanus. As such, perhaps if you focus entirely on the Ocean aspect, things might be a bit easier. So you have create/destroy water, perhaps Purify/Contaminate Water (THe water becomes salt water perhapes?) Instead of Speak with Animals she has Speak with Aquatic Animals? She would also likely understand Primordial.

As far as poison blood, that's not really her in the myths, although her husband is associated with snakes. So you could have a "snake bite" attack 1/short rest that does damage equivalent to a dagger, but has a chance to inflict poison damage.

As a water spirit, I could potentially see a Dex bonus, as well as a Charisma bonus, since Eurynome was the mother of the Graces.

These are all ideas at the moment, nothing really meant to be concrete. So hopefully some of this can be useful.

Scarce

2015-11-12, 03:46 PM

If Andromalius is the only one left, my OCD will do worse than a little extra work could ever do. There are 3 from Tome of Magic we didn't adapt, for various reasons. Buer because healing, Andromalius because there's already a rogue analogue with Sneak Attack, and Agares because it's mechanics didn't line up nicely with 5th edition and noone cared enough about him to mention it.

I was actually suggesting deliberately going back to the real-world mythological roots and building off of it. What ToM did with her was create an original character (I don't think Eurynome was ever anything like the mutant she is in the book) I'm suggesting to adapt a version of the vestige that might work better for us than the ToM Eurynome. To be clear, we're talking about writing the vestige from scratch, preserving a few features at most from the current version. The only reason I can see for keeping Eurynome is to be true to adapting ToM, which is odd because Eurynome was one of the weaker vestiges in ToM (thematically and mechanically). If we write a new legend/character for her then we're not adapting ToM at all; we're just sticking the name on something new.

Scarce

2015-11-12, 03:52 PM

was an Oceanid in Greek myths or a daughter of Oceanus. As such, perhaps if you focus entirely on the Ocean aspect, things might be a bit easier. So you have create/destroy water, perhaps Purify/Contaminate Water (THe water becomes salt water perhapes?) Instead of Speak with Animals she has Speak with Aquatic Animals? She would also likely understand Primordial.

As far as poison blood, that's not really her in the myths, although her husband is associated with snakes. So you could have a "snake bite" attack 1/short rest that does damage equivalent to a dagger, but has a chance to inflict poison damage.

As a water spirit, I could potentially see a Dex bonus, as well as a Charisma bonus, since Eurynome was the mother of the Graces.

These are all ideas at the moment, nothing really meant to be concrete. So hopefully some of this can be useful.
I was thinking we could make her a water-themed vestige as well, but that means we would have three aquatic vestiges.

Prince Zahn

2015-11-12, 04:19 PM

There are 3 from Tome of Magic we didn't adapt, for various reasons. Buer because healing, Andromalius because there's already a rogue analogue with Sneak Attack, and Agares because it's mechanics didn't line up nicely with 5th edition and noone cared enough about him to mention it. sooner or later, they will be in this Binder as well, if I can help, sans the tricky parts, with any luck.

To be clear, we're talking about writing the vestige from scratch, preserving a few features at most from the current version. The only reason I can see for keeping Eurynome is to be true to adapting ToM, which is odd because Eurynome was one of the weaker vestiges in ToM (thematically and mechanically). If we write a new legend/character for her then we're not adapting ToM at all; we're just sticking the name on something new.
WotC did this exact same thing with this exact same Vestige in the book we consider our gospel (despite the fact that upgrading to 5e is more important to me than preserving the past), what exactly is the problem with doing this?
Eurynome really was one of the weaker vestiges in ToM, we need not restrict ourselves to make the same mistakes that were made in 2006.
Do I really need a reason for us to do this besides I really like this vestige conceptually, even though it doesn't come from satanic origins like 90% of the others? This is a canon vestige, who's name was mentioned in ToM and it was not done justice, I want us to give it another shot because fixing it is certainly not on 5e's current agenda. If doing this is an issue, it's because disallowing it is a clear double standard, not because of how much we salvage of this Vestige who needed fixing long before this thread was relevant.

Mith

2015-11-12, 04:23 PM

Eurynome could be a "face" vestige, not so much for combat, but really good on diplomacy.

Scarce

2015-11-12, 09:21 PM

WotC did this exact same thing with this exact same Vestige in the book we consider our gospel (despite the fact that upgrading to 5e is more important to me than preserving the past), what exactly is the problem with doing this?

You're saying that because Wizards of the Coast invented a vestige named Eurynome, we can just do the same thing (make a completely unrelated character) and give it the same name in our adaptation of their book? You don't think it would piss people off if they opened up the Codex, looked to find Paimon, and instead of finding a dance-fighting vestige instead found a vestige of secrets and knowledge based off its namesake, found in the completely unrelated demononlogy book, the Lesser Key of Solomon?

Eurynome really was one of the weaker vestiges in ToM, we need not restrict ourselves to make the same mistakes that were made in 2006.

Do I really need a reason for us to do this besides I really like this vestige conceptually, even though it doesn't come from satanic origins like 90% of the others? This is a canon vestige, who's name was mentioned in ToM and it was not done justice, I want us to give it another shot because fixing it is certainly not on 5e's current agenda. If doing this is an issue, it's because disallowing it is a clear double standard, not because of how much we salvage of this Vestige who needed fixing long before this thread was relevant.

The vestige is broken in the sense that it doesn't thematically work, and it didn't in 3.5 either. If you're telling me that we shouldn't repeat the mistake of using a vestige concept that doesn't work, I completely agree. If you're telling me that means we need to create something completely unrelated, give it the same name, and publish it, then I completely disagree.

I respect that you liked the concept of Eurynome, but the concept isn't focused enough to make a decent vestige. If you want to change that concept to make it work, then you're removing the thing you like about the vestige. It's a no-win situation.

Scarce

2015-11-12, 09:30 PM

Eurynome could be a "face" vestige, not so much for combat, but really good on diplomacy.

This could work, since there's only 1 other dedicated 'face' vestige, but I am still against the idea of changing this vestige's core concept. We haven't been creating new vestiges for the core of this class; just adapting vestiges to 5e, and adapting a few characters from D&D lore. If we change everything about this character, sans the name, we've just invented an original character masquerading as a core vestige. After all, the only reason we're working on this vestige is because it's a core vestige, and it completely defeats the purpose to change it like that.

Mith

2015-11-12, 10:33 PM

Scarce

2015-11-12, 11:02 PM

Fair enough. I was more looking at potential options to focus the vestige. I do see your point about if you are doing a conversion, then you should avoid making a new vestige with an old name. That would lead to confusion. Do you think you should just create an entirely new vestige to fit in the gap?

Interestingly, we have one more vestige than we expected at this level. That being said, if we do need more vestiges anytime soon, I'm totally taking your advice and making something to fit the 'face' role.

Status update: with the new Focalor, we've finished the first edit of the 3rd level vestiges (the class is playable up to 6th level, woo!) 4th level has 4 complete vestiges, but I'm waiting on Eurynome development before I move onto 5th level.

EDIT: Melee Vestiges
Another few notes, since I'm trying to balance melee-oriented vestiges across levels:

Paimon needs a few tweaks: Dance of Death limited to slashing only non heavy weapons (no Dance of Death with a greatsword or maul). I'd also feel better if it was 1d6 additional damage, but I'm not going to force the issue. Also Lord of the Dance should be cut. When it activates is kinda confusing (it grants advantage on Dexterity (perform) checks while you're dancing, but do you apply on the check made to start dancing?), it's effect is made conceptually redundant by Dancer's Grace, and having advantage on the Masterful Footwork check seems a bit powerful.

Also, pending some math to confirm my suspicions, Andras and Kas (with the new +Cha to damage Black Blade) should be switched in level; Andras at 4th and Kas at 5th.

Scarce

2015-11-14, 05:09 PM

Since we're wrapped on level 4 (sans Eurynome, which I'll leave to Zahn to fix or dispose of), onto Level 5!

Andras (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19749959&postcount=69)
- Greatsword, lance, and longsword proficiency
- phantom steed at will
- Improved Critical
- Creature attacks: Wis save or attack other creature (Cha/long rest)
- 3 superiority Dice / short rest
○ Feinting Attack
○ Menacing Attack

Dantalion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19828574&postcount=203)
- Can use Cha instead of Int mod on Int checks
- sanctuary at will
- telepathy, 30 feet
- dimension door 1/short (15th: or teleport, 20th: dimension door at will)

Otiax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19828270&postcount=201)
- See through obscurements like fog
- Ranged attacks at disadvantage against you (action each round - 14th level: radius 10 feet, 18th level: 30 feet)
- fog cloud at will
- knock 1/short
- 2d6 damage attack with 10 foot range (14th: 2 attacks, 18th: 3 attacks)
- cloudkill 1/long

Slay Light
While you are bound to Tenebrous, your newfound affinity for the dark can shy away lit flames and fireflies. You can extinguish any number of non-magical sources of illumination within 50 feet of you on your turn (no action required.) Additionally, you can end a single spell of 3rd level of lower that emits an area of light as an action. Once you have extinguished a magical light, you cannot do so again until you complete a short or long rest.

Grave Darkness
You can cast the spell darkness without expending a spell shot or spell components. Additionally, while the spell is active, you can use a bonus action to activate any of the following effects within the darkness. These effects last for 1 minute or until the darkness is dispelled. You can only have one effect active at a time.

Shadows of the damned crowd the darkness and hinder movement, making every 1 foot of movement inside the darkness cost an additional 1 foot of movement. At 15th level, the area becomes unnaturally silent as per the spell silence.
The shadows begin to latch creatures within the area and trap them. Each creature within the darkness must succeed on a Strength saving through or be restrained for the duration. A restrained creature can repeat this saving throw at the beginning of each of its turns to end the effect on itself early or be freed by another creature using its action to make a DC 15 Strength check.
An undead manifests itself in the darkness and patrols it. This creature is under your control, as per the spell animate dead, and must be an undead of Challenge 3 or lower. The undead creature disappears at the end of the duration, if it drops to 0 HP, or if it ever ends its turn in bright light. At 17th level, you summon a second undead of the same kind with a single use of this ability.

Sense the Shadows
You can see normally in magical and nonmagical darkness. Additionally, you can sense the presence and number of all living creatures within 100 feet of you, but not their exact locations.

Rime of Emptiness
Tenebrous grants you the cold sorrow of the abyss to release by including pain upon your foes. All of your melee weapon attacks deal an additional 1d4 cold and 1d4 necrotic damage.

Flicker
Tenebrous grants you the ability to fade into the shadows at the most opportune moments. As a reaction when a creature makes an attack roll against you, you can cast the spell blink without expending a spell slot or spell components, and roll your first d20 immediately, as per the spell's effect. After casting this spell, you must complete a short or long rest before casting it again.
- Extinguish nonmagical lights (no action) and magical lights (action - 1/short)
- darkness at will + secondary effect

○ Movement in darkness costs double (15th level: + silence)
○ Strength save or be reatrained
○ animate dead CR 3 or lower undead
- See in magical darkness + sense creatures
- Melee attacks +1d4 cold +1d4 necrotic
- blink (bonus action - 1/short)

Level 5 is a lot more collected than level 4, and has a better focus for each vestige. The weakest one in the group this time is Dantalion, which probably needs to be pushed more in the direction of being a party face vestige.

This one I have significant reservations about. Even though it's a melee vestige, it lacks the damage output that earlier melee vestige have gotten, which is either a sign of melee power creep or Andras needing adjustments. At the same time, I can't switch it and Kas with a good conscience, since most of its power comes from the Sow Discord feature, which is arguably too powerful, and would certainly outclass the level 4 vestiges. However, if this was reduced to once per short rest, I think Andras would be about right to switch levels.

Unless anyone protests, Andras will be among the 4th level vestiges with that change, and Kas will be promoted to 5th.

The scaling spells make this vestige a little more difficult to read than I would like. I would cut off teleport, give it a feature of its own, and simplify Thought Travel, as follows:

Thought Travel
You can instantly transport yourself to a location that you can call to mind. You may cast Dimension Door without using a spell slot. Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again. At 18th level, you can cast dimension door at will.

Teleport
Beginning at 15th level, you can cast teleport without expending a spell slot. Once you use this ability, you must take a long rest before you can do so again.

I also think this vestige could use another 'face' spell or ability. My recommendation is double proficiency on Diplomacy checks.

knock should probably be at will.
Fog Hammer isn't any better than other cantrips. It should either specifically include +Dex, +Str, or +Cha to damage, or simply do 3d6 damage. I like the multiple-attack progression.
Concealing Mist is really weak as an action; I would make this a bonus action to create and maintain, and make sure to specifically state that all spell and weapon ranged attacks against you are at disadvantage.

I should totally say that I love everything about Tenebrous; it's one of my favorite vestiges and my only complaint is that is that the language could be shortened and adapted to 5e format a little better. I took the liberty to edit it and made very few changes: Slay Light can be performed on non-magical lights without an action, Grave Darkness undead are now governed by animate dead and are limited to CR 3 undead, rather than CR 5, and Rime of Emptiness was strengthened slightly.

Prince Zahn

2015-11-18, 08:50 AM

These are drafts, as they always start as. I have no clue what you will think about them but I'm a stubborn individual.

These are just crunch right now. I'll try to find a time to finish the rest of this (I have disadvantage because my books are unavailable at the moment.) and patch up the format on my home PC.
http://d15osn4tlmtdxb.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2003/03/andromalius-seal.jpg
ANDROMALIUS
The Woeful Jester
6th Level vestige
DC: 18

CATCH IN THE ACT
While you are bound to Andromalius, you can not be surprised. Also, Charisma (Deception) and Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) checks made against you have disadvantage.

SEE THE UNSEEN
You gain Blindsight out to 30 feet.

INTERCEPTION
At any point when a creature within 60 feet attempts an attack roll, ability check or saving throw, you can choose to use your reaction to supernaturally fumble his attempt, if the creature would normally add it's proficiency bonus to the roll being made, it instead makes the roll without adding it. You can not use feature again until you finish a short rest.

LAUGH TO TEARS
You can cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter a number of times equal to 1 + your Charisma Modifier. You retain any expended uses when you finish a short or long rest.

ANCIENTS' JIG
You can cast Otto's Irresistible Dance once without expending a spell slot. You can not use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

http://dragoonwraith.com/dnd/vestiges/Eurynome.png
EURYNOME
Mother of the Sky and Sea
6th Level Vestige
DC: 18

ANIMAL FRIEND
You can speak with and understand any beast that has a fly or swim speed, and you have advantage on Wisdom (Animal Handling) and Charisma (Diplomacy) checks when interacting with beasts.

THE ANSWER IN THE WIND
You can cast Commune with nature once without expending a spell slot. You can not do so again until you finish a long rest.

EURYNOME'S WANDERLUST
You can cast Water Walk at will. In addition, you can cast Wind Walk once without expending a spell slot. Once you cast Wind Walk in this fashion, you can not use it again until you complete a long rest.

RAIN DANCE
While bound to Eurynome, You can cast Sleet Storm at will. Also, you can make rainclouds form, rain and/or dissipate as an action.

CALL OF OCEAN'S WIND
You can cast Conjure Elementals, you can only summon an Air or Water Elemental with it. You can not use this feature until you finish a short rest.

I will look at your comments between today and Friday, Scarce. I wish I had more to say at the moment but work leaves me a tired individual...

Scarce

2015-11-18, 02:11 PM

Prince Zahn

2015-11-18, 04:56 PM

On Andromalius:

A lot of this works, but I'm not sure that it's quite 6th level.
Catch in the Act: I like it.
See the Unseen: I don't know of any precedent of blindsight, regardless of level. I'll give this feature the benefit of the doubt, but I can't know one way or another if it's completely broken. You could just use the rogue class feature Blindsense, but they only get that at level 14 and this is objectively more powerful...
Laugh to Tears. Cha mod+1? Just use Cha mod; they're almost certain to have 20 Cha by this level. Also, 'retain' should be regain.
Ancient's Jig: This works. Why not just name it Irresistible Dance? I like the name, but doesn't it just get in the way?
Interception: This is my main problem here. Basically, this is a reaction to deny someone their proficiency 1/short. This is super weak for level 6. Plus, it kinda breaks the theme. Why not just give Uncanny Dodge?

Starting at 5th level, when an attacker that you can see hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to halve the attack’s damage against you.
Catch in the Act
Cool.:smallsmile: Andromalius's theme in this one is focused on anti-rogue, which is why it was important to me not to hand out SA.
See the unseen
I'm like 90% sure it exists in this edition. I think Usually monsters have it but thus far players do not. I figured I needed a step up from See Invisibility and have something that tells the sneaky characters "NO YOU CAN NOT HIDE CHECK ME."
Perhaps I should limit it to 10~20 feet?
Laugh To Tears
Oops - typo!
Anyway, I'm not married to the extra +1 if you feel it shouldn't be there. I just had a hunch. I didn't want to flat out say that you could use this feature X times per short. It would be even weirder than what I already did while giving a 1st level spell to a 6th Level vestige. It relies on concentration anyway so one needn't worry about spamming after it works.
Ancients' Jig
Glad you like it!
Yes and no. In terms of simplicity, the different label does not contribute when you are selling the exact same product. However, like you said the name sounds better, I am happy with it aesthetically. it also takes less space on a page, and carries a different feel than just calling it "Otto's Irresistible Dance". If you wish to make the feature a feel more distinct mechanically, I'm all ears.:smallsmile:
Interception
The reason I did not use Uncanny dodge was because I was not searching for it. What I want to do with Andromalius with this feature is give him a Nope! button (No save). At high levels I reckon that not having your proficiency bonus is a big deal, more so since Monster Prof bonus can go as high as +9, and expertise gets a PC as high as +12.

I don't disagree that it doesn't do enough, I just put the idea out there without full idea of proportion, I suppose. I reckon some testing may be needed to find a sweet spot.

On Eurynome:
Let's talk conceptual focus: animals, wind and water. It's a little more focused this time around, but I still don't see how Eurynome ties into animals. I guess we can say Eurynome is basically the druid vestige, for this iteration.
Rain Dance: Sleet storm at will? This sounds like the single most annoying feature possible. As a DM, I don't want a player to cast this every combat, because combat would take forever.
Conjure Elementals. Also, I think this is really powerful for a 1/short ability, unless you intend for this to simply be a minionmancer vestige.Yes, my goal with Eurynome is to tool the binder for going druid. More specifically attributed winged creatures and fish rather than land animals.
Rain Dance
I'll look into another direction, to spare the eldritch sanity of those who read the play. :\
Conjure Elemental
I don't imagine it's as powerful as you make for a 6th Level vestige: Eurynome's other active features require concentration, so you can't go doing much else if you don't want the elemental to go hostile. In retrospect, I am beginning to think that is a design issue If all the features require concentration. I'll give it more thought over time.
Minionmancy.
...
.....
I never liked minionmancy, but some people like it.
I planned for Eurynome's abilities with strong exploration focus in mind. Do you think I would be better off going in that direction instead?

Scarce

2015-11-19, 12:19 AM

I'm like 90% sure it exists in this edition. I think Usually monsters have it but thus far players do not. I figured I needed a step up from See Invisibility and have something that tells the sneaky characters "NO YOU CAN NOT HIDE CHECK ME."
Perhaps I should limit it to 10~20 feet?

Honestly, just use the rogue Blindsense feature. It's appropriate for this vestige, the mechanics are concise, and we know it's acceptable to give a player at this level.

Interception
The reason I did not use Uncanny dodge was because I was not searching for it. What I want to do with Andromalius with this feature is give him a Nope! button (No save). At high levels I reckon that not having your proficiency bonus is a big deal, more so since Monster Prof bonus can go as high as +9, and expertise gets a PC as high as +12.

I've got two problems with this: First and foremost, we are not given monster's proficiency bonuses. This basically makes this worthless anytime you decide to use the Monster Manual.
Secondly, I don't think it does what you want it to do. If you want to make someone perform poorly at something, you just impose disadvantage on them. There's tons of reaction-based features which do just that in the codex, but for a 6th level vestige, I think the features need a little more clear value. My recommendation would be Uncanny Dodge or Evasion. It would go a long way to making this vestige feel like it's worthy of 6th level.

(Besides, the inclusion of Blindsense and Uncanny Dodge or Evasion also make it immediately clear to readers that this vestige should be associated with rogues, just like Sneak Attack does with Malphas.)

Yes, my goal with Eurynome is to tool the binder for going druid. More specifically attributed winged creatures and fish rather than land animals.

I can see that, but it's unfortunate there's very few features we can lift from the druid class to make that connection solid.

I never liked minionmancy, but some people like it.
I planned for Eurynome's abilities with strong exploration focus in mind. Do you think I would be better off going in that direction instead?
I really agree with your perspective on minionmancy as well. It's problematic for a lot of reasons (which I can rant on about for quite a long time), but the problem that it presents here is that it;s quite powerful on its own, but the vestige doesn't really focus on it, so it feels disjointed. If we needed to introduce another higher-level vestige, we could do one that focuses on minions, but it would need to dedicate all its focus towards that.

I would strongly encourage you to go in the direction of exploration features here, if possible (though I'm at a loss as to what else you can do to make it appropriate at this level.)

Scarce

2015-11-21, 04:08 PM

Prince Zahn

2015-11-21, 04:25 PM

Quick note on numbers of vestiges per level:

1st: 6
Amon, Aoskar, Dahlver-Nar, Naberius, Ronove, Shax
2nd: 5
Aym, Haagenti, Ipos, Leraje, Malphas
3rd: 4
Focalor, Paimon, Primus, Xanathar
4th: 4
Andras, Haures, Karsus, Savnok
5th: 4
Dantalion, Kas, Otiax, Tenebrous
6th: 5
Andromalius, Chupoclops, Eurynome, Geryon, Zagan
7th: 2
Acererak, Marchosias
8th: 2
Balam, Eligor
9th: 2
Halphax, Orthos
Hopefully, I haven't missed any. Does it bug anyone else that 6th level has a spike in vestiges just before the 7th level drop?

(Thought for Zahn -- give Eurynome a wildshape-lite ability (limited animal selection), play with the focus for druid-y stuff, and bump it up to level 7 to smooth out the curve.)

Didn't think it through, I suppose? :smallredface: I don't intend to make excuses for myself, but it's hard for me to find everything in this thread lately...
I like your idea, the chalenge is to make a feature objectively inferior to the druid's wild shape (like you said, limited selection) but I would add that it mustn't be as powerful as what a moon druid of the same level could do either. When looking for creatures for Eurynome, what CR do you think I should aim for with "Wild Shape Lite"? I'd like to know what I can't do up front, so as to minimize the chance of going overboard by accident (not that going overboard isn't fun every now and then but...:smalltongue:)

Scarce

2015-11-21, 04:35 PM

Didn't think it through, I suppose? :smallredface:
I like your idea, the chalenge is to make a feature objectively inferior to the druid's wild shape (like you said, limited selection) but I would add that it mustn't be as powerful as what a moon druid of the same level could do either. When looking for creatures for Eurynome, what CR do you think I should aim for with "Wild Shape Lite"? I'd like to know what I can't do up front, so as to minimize the chance of going overboard by accident (not that going overboard isn't fun every now and then but...:smalltongue:)
A Druid of the same level can transform into beasts of Challenge 4, so you should probably make the forms no more powerful than level 3. Also, there's no need to unlock more forms as you reach higher levels. Finally, make sure that transforming into a beast doesn't grant free hp (that is to say, if you are reduced to 0 hp in beast form, you don't also have full hp in your normal form.)

Prince Zahn

2015-11-21, 04:41 PM

A Druid of the same level can transform into beasts of Challenge 4, so you should probably make the forms no more powerful than level 3. Also, there's no need to unlock more forms as you reach higher levels. Finally, make sure that transforming into a beast doesn't grant free hp (that is to say, if you are reduced to 0 hp in beast form, you don't also have full hp in your normal form.)

These guidelines are simple enough :smallsmile: I'll see what I can do!

Scarce

2015-11-21, 04:56 PM

These guidelines are simple enough :smallsmile: I'll see what I can do!

Good deal. Don't lock down anything too much, though. I'll take another look at it when we reach the 7th level vestiges (though someone should really chime in on the 5th level vestiges before I even move on past them; there are some changes in there that need to be made.)

Wyntonian

2015-11-27, 05:12 PM

Scarce

2015-11-27, 05:21 PM

Hello,

I've been lurking and watching this thread for a while and I'd like to contribute. I'm a 5e veteran, currently running two irl campaigns and participating in four of various degrees of seriousness and length, and I'm working on a creative writing degree so I hope to god I can write. If there's anything I can do to further this project, please let me know! I'll be wrapping up my finals in the next few weeks and I'm looking for something to take on during my winter break.
Welcome! There's a lot of stuff to be done with the class right now, but less in terms of writing new material, more digging through, editing and balancing the material which already exists. We've done one editing pass for all the vestiges up to 4th level, and I've been waiting for some time for someone else to chime in on the 5th level vestiges which I covered here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20076078&postcount=475). If you wanted to build some binders of various levels and give us a better idea of how powerful various level builds are, or if you wanted to build a binder and playtest it properly in an actual game, that would also be extremely helpful!

Prince Zahn

2015-11-27, 05:30 PM

Hello,

I've been lurking and watching this thread for a while and I'd like to contribute. I'm a 5e veteran, currently running two irl campaigns and participating in four of various degrees of seriousness and length, and I'm working on a creative writing degree so I hope to god I can write. If there's anything I can do to further this project, please let me know! I'll be wrapping up my finals in the next few weeks and I'm looking for something to take on during my winter break.

Hi there :) welcome to our humble project!
I wish I could talk more because I should be deep asleep by now. Currently we're in sort of a playtesting stage; Scarce is build testing our 1.4 billion vestiges. I'm long overdue on fixing the vestige Codex (busy RL you know how it is, it doesn't help that I can't find a lot of things in the thread:smallredface:)
Speaking of which, Everything Scarce said in the post that shinobi'd me just now is correct. We could use a lot of help, and the technical aspects take priority at this stage. That being said, there are also fluff aspects that need polishing (I.e writing one line "manifestations", legends to be retold and made briefer and/or cooler, editing any less than desired aspect of a vestige) so if you can and wish to stick around until we work on polishing those parts we would be beyond thrilled to have another creative perspective!

Scarce

2015-11-28, 12:07 AM

I'm long overdue on fixing the vestige Codex (busy RL you know how it is, it doesn't help that I can't find a lot of things in the thread:smallredface:)

I've been thinking, I know you value the control over the codex, but if you don't think you can maintain it (considering it's been 6 weeks since you've edited it, and you're over two levels behind on the editing phase), I could put together an up-to-date Codex in a matter of hours, flavor text and all.

Wyntonian

2015-11-28, 12:11 AM

Scarce

2015-11-28, 12:28 AM

Fantastic, my rl gaming group is me and my five roommates, so I'm sure I can get one of them to run me through a few dungeon crawls, and I may even be able to play as a Binder in the next 5e campaign we start (it'll probably be one of the published modules but that's a good starting point. I may also have one as an NPC in one of the games I'm DMing.

I can get to the vestiges soon, probably around the 15th or so, and do the math comparing a specialized binder to its closest counterpart in another class, like a Sealed Fate binder focusing on Haagenti with a paladin of the same level. I genuinely like building characters so that should be a fun project for me.

Awesome! Any insight on balance is super valuable to us right now. Also, I'm interested in what you think is hard to understand or difficult to read through when you build the characters. You should probably focus on characters using vestiges of 4th level and lower since those have seen a proper balancing pass.

Welcome to the team!

Prince Zahn

2015-11-28, 05:20 AM

I've been thinking, I know you value the control over the codex, but if you don't think you can maintain it (considering it's been 6 weeks since you've edited it, and you're over two levels behind on the editing phase), I could put together an up-to-date Codex in a matter of hours, flavor text and all.

I know you can do it. And I know you could put it together more efficiently than I could. :smallfrown: I don't like to think it's over my head.
There are two main reasons why it takes so long, I'm not counting any procrastination for a change because I really am a pretty busy man.
1. I can't find a lot of things on the archives, which makes staying updated rather difficult.
2. I have this pretty finicky format going on that I wanted to standardize, some of it involves microediting words and bracket codes in vestige entries (like using "you can" instead of "you may", among other things) --That I feel that If I'm not supervising over it, then it won't come out the way I want it to. If I had the time and energy to go and do it, it would have been done by early October.

Look, can I have a little time to think this over?

Wyntonian

2015-11-29, 03:17 AM

If there's any tasks like that you need to delegate, I'm happy to do some of the busywork.

On a related note, here's some feedback on the 5th level vestiges. This is purely mechanical, so I won't comment on the legends or fluff. (For what it's worth, I thought they were, at worst, a fine starting point)

I've compared the benefits of the 5th level vestiges to 9th level abilities in other classes, and 5th level spells from full-casting classes as a benchmark for balance.

Proficiencies: Reasonable, certainly. I wonder how a sometimes-on proficiency like this would work in a long-running campaign. Would a character budget around affording a decent magical longsword they use only sometimes? Doesn't effect balance particularly, just something to consider.

Phantom Steed: My first thought is that like any expendable summons a player could use this to set off traps remotely, as the range is 30 feet and it can be done at-will every minute. Considering how long the spell lasts it might be worthwhile to have it be cast as a ritual only (which would take 11 minutes instead of 1). It's possible I'm being too GitP-y about it and it's not necessary to balance a class around the most exploitative possible uses of class features (and really it isn't that bad to begin with), but I'll leave that up to the rest of the team.

Improved Critical: Takes me back to a couple years ago when I played 3.5. I have no concerns here, fighters have had a better version of this for six levels already. I could have sworn bladelocks had something similar but I guess not. When I do my comparisons, I'll definitely test a level 9-10 bladelock against a semi-optimized Sealed Fate binder with Andras and one of the more melee focused level 1-2 vestiges and see if this and the superiority dice can stand up to the spells and invocations from the warlock.

Combat Superiority: Smaller dice and fewer of them than a level 3 Battlemaster. No complaints there. My only question is if the save DC's are based off str/dex as they are for fighters or if they're cha based like basically every other binder feature.

Overall Andras looks good mechanically. As far as I can tell the Binder is balanced around having a whole wardrobe of bargain-bin knockoffs of other designer class features and Andras is a good addition to that mix. He is different than some vestiges in that all of his class features seem aligned towards performing a specific task (namely charging on horseback with a lance), and a lot of other vestiges seem to be more eclectic in their features.

I also agree with the changes to Sow Discord (which sounds like an incredibly fun feature to use), and the placement as a 4th level vestige.

Dantalion's Knowledge: Binders get three of the five int-based skills as possible skill proficiencies, and without Perception as an option and with Charisma as a main skill it's pretty likely they'll have one. Also, a lot of the backgrounds that seem most appropriate (Acolyte, Sage, Hermit) give proficiency with INT-based skills. All that is to say is that Binders with Dantalion will often do pretty damn well at asking their DM to drop some exposition.

Dantalion's Awe: Quite strong, as the DC will be fairly high at this level, but definitely not insurmountable. This is most effective on a buffer-type character, and I've not seen too many vestiges that make the Binder into a WoW-style priest so free Sanctuaries probably won't be a concern.

Telepath: Strong, but it seems to be the centerpiece of the vestige so that's okay. I'm concerned about what "digging deeper" means, but I suppose that's up to DM discretion.

Thought Travel: I'm not completely sure how I feel about vestige features scaling so well with levels, but I'm not going to disagree until I have a better feel on the state of vestiges as a whole. Still, this fits for the evasive nature of the vestige and doesn't synergize too strongly with any other class features. I might suggest changing the improvements so that it can be cast reflexively after taking damage, like the fey warlock's Misty Step feature.

Overall I like Dantalion and would probably frequently bind him in a social/political/investigative game, but I don't feel that he's strong enough to hedge out the competition. In fact he could probably use a nudge towards being a little stronger.

Proficiencies: Good for getting a pseudo-rogue if the party needs one, but I don't think binders have much incentive to get dex as anything more than a secondary/tertiary stat. Plus it's totally overshadowed by Knock.

Fog Sight: Cool, but mostly considering how it synergizes with the other abilities.

Concealing Mist: This is basically a gimped version of the dodge action until 14 when it gets pretty good. Consider giving it something else before then?

Obscuring Mist: VERY good with Fog Sight, basically makes you untouchable as you can put it down, hide in it, and use your ranged attacks to strike targets that can't see you. Also it makes Concealing Mist kind of useless below 14 as you can just use one action to get a better effect (safety from ranged attacks) for a number of turns, rather than using your action each turn.

Unlock: Also pretty strong, but not unreasonable. Good supplement to the thieves tools, thematically and mechanically.

Fog Hammer: Is this supposed to count as a reach weapon for the purposes of threatened area? If so then you can make opportunity attacks at everyone who moves through your fog zone assuming you're at the center. I like it otherwise, kind of a neat complement to the vestige to make it more than an evasive, lockpicky sort of choice.

Death Fog: Wild, easily the best feature of any vestige of this level considering even wizards only get a spell of this level 1/day. Puts Otiax near the top in terms of combat viability for vestiges of this level.

Otiax is thematically very strong, and his abilities all make sense to coexist in one bundle. He does have six strong abilities compared to Dantalion's four, which is part of what makes him a clearly better choice for anything but a very interaction-based adventuring day. I'd suggest toning down Death Fog slightly, potentially treating it as an improved form of Obscuring Mist (as in, once per day when you cast obscuring mist it deals xd6 damage to any creature (possibly excluding yourself and allies) that moves through it). This would make the feature set more cohesive and make it play better with itself, which I think is important with bigger feature lists like this.

Slay Light: The wording here is a little wonky. It looks like the stuff before "Additionally," can only be done 1/day. Could be I'm misreading this but when it's daylight and I'm fully sober I'll come up with an alternative phrasing.

Grave Darkness: This is similar to what I was suggesting above, potentially too similar. I'm still very fond of it.

Sense the Shadows: As a DM, I like that it doesn't give away the locations of my sneaky monsters. As a player, I like how this would contribute to atmosphere. Very nice overall.

Rime of Emptiness: Nice little damage boost, like 5 damage on average. Nothing to write home about but it'd be useful with two-weapon fighting or a multiple attack feature.

Flicker: Very cool. I have no serious qualms about this power-wise, but most features will recharge on either a short or long rest, not just a short rest. Probably just say "short or long rest".

This vestige is thematically very sound, and all of the abilities fit well together. I'm not too concerned about any of them, but I should really check through the cr <3 undead to see if any of them have any exploitable abilities.

EDIT: I've looked through the undead with a CR of 3 or under and found that the ghast, mummy, shadow and wight seem to be the choices to balance the ability around, as they have a good variety of debuffs between them.

Scarce

2015-11-30, 01:42 PM

On a related note, here's some feedback on the 5th level vestiges.
Great stuff! It looks like we're very much on the same page. I've changed the levels on Kas and Andras, and edited Tenebrous from some of your notes. I might yet do some editing on Otiax and Dantalion to give them a little more power (I'm waiting on Submortimer to see if he wants to do the edits himself.) However, now I'm second-guessing whether or not Otiax needs something with a little less bite than cloudkill. I'll think it over- that's a great note.

Next, I'm going to start looking up the 6th level vestiges. Wyntonian, let me know if you need help finding anything in this sprawling post, or if something strikes you as broken. I've been focusing a lot on the vestige section of the class, but feel free to chime in if you find anything in the class chassis or the subclasses that seems unbalanced.

Scarce

2015-12-03, 03:47 PM

It's been a busy week for me, but I have (slightly) revised versions of Dantalion and Otiax, wrapping up level 5.

Here's Dantalion. Still less combat proficient as the others on this list, but a strong party face and utility vestige for the higher levels.
Dantalion's Knowledge
You receive insight on any topic which you might be researching. You can add you Charisma Modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier to all Intelligence skill checks. Additionally, you gain advantage on Intelligence skill checks made concerning royalty, nobility, current or ancient kingdoms, and the like.

Dantalion's Awe
You invoke the full awe and might of Dantalion, cowing your enemies before you. You can cast sanctuary without using a spell slot.

Telepath
You can speak with your mind and read the thoughts of others. You can communicate telepathically with any creature within 30 feet that knows at least 1 language, even if you do not share a common language. Additionally, you can read the surface thoughts of creatures within 30 feet (those foremost in its mind, reflecting its current emotions and what it is actively thinking about); this allows two-way communication.
If you wish to probe deeper into a creature's thoughts, the creature must a Wisdom saving throw to prevent you from looking into his mind. If it fails, you gain insight into its reasoning (if any), its emotional state, and something that looms large in its mind (such as something it worries over, loves, or hates). If it succeeds, it is unaffected by this ability for 24 hours.

Thought Travel
You can instantly transport yourself to a location that you can call to mind. You can cast dimension door without using a spell slot. Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again. At 18th level, you can cast dimension door at will.

Teleport
Beginning at 15th level, you can cast teleport without expending a spell slot. Once you do so, you must take a long rest before doing so again.

Dantalion's Domination
Dantalion's royal lineage allows you to control others. You can cast dominate person. Once you do so, you must take a long rest before doing so again.

And Otiax. My only fear is that he might be too well-rounded. I've been considering cutting Death Fog entirely, simply to keep it from being the perfect vestige choice. Thoughts on that?
Bonus Proficiencies
While bond to Otiax, you gain proficiency with thieves' tools.

Fog Sight
You may see normally through obscurement caused by fog, clouds, smoke, or any other similar effect.

Concealing Mist
You whip up the mists that surrounds you into a concealing cloud. As a bonus action, you can thicken the cloud around you, causing all ranged spell and ranged melee attacks against you to be made at disadvantage. This effect ends at the end of your next turn, though you may use your bonus action to maintain the cloud; it also ends in the presence of a strong wind.
At 14th level, you can include all creatures adjacent to you within the cloud. At 18th level, you can include all creatures within 10 feet.

Obscuring Mist
You summon a roiling cloud of blue fog, obscuring the area. You may cast fog cloud without a using a spell slot.

Fog Hammer
You can whip the fog about you into lashing tendrils of mist, slamming your foes with concussive force. As an action, you may make a melee spell attack against a creature within 10 feet, dealing 2d6 + your Charisma modifier magical bludgeoning damage on a hit. You may use Fog Hammer to make opportunity attacks.
At level 14, you can make two attacks with fog hammer as an action; at level 18, you may make three attacks with fog hammer as an action.

Unlock
You focus your mist into a lock you can see, popping it open with a thought. You may cast knock without using a spell slot. Once you do so, you must take a short or long rest before doing so again.

Death Fog
You create a burst of brilliant blue fog, leeching the life out of creatures unlucky enough to be caught in it. You may cast cloudkill without using a spell slot. Once you do so, you must take a long rest before doing so again.

Next, I'm moving on to 6th level. It might take me a while to get meaningful responses on 6th level, because it's kind of a mess. Chupoclops (one of mine) basically needs an entire rewrite with a dual-focus on fighting like a monster and being ethereal (cutting out the whole Despair Aura thing,) and Zagan needs some reorganizing to make it a little more digestible. Geryon might be too powerful, and Andromalius might be too weak.

If Wyntonian is up to it, I'd like to see his take on Chupoclops. I posted some very general guidelines not long ago. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20067839&postcount=462) I would make sure this one synergise well with the Twisted Fate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19939824&postcount=413), which gets extra attacks from his extra natural attacks (like Chupoclops's bite.) Make sure the ethereal stuff compliments Haures (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19668416&postcount=26), if possible.